SARM's, MK, & GW : A User's Guide

[AustBenny]

Why is that? Seems like you enjoy posting in this thread just as much as everyone else.

Lol just frustrated with that guy from before. You're so patient dude!!!

 

[YouBet33]

Starting linebacker - probably not THAT outraged bahahaha.

Not starting yet

 

[HardB0iled]

Just gonna rant a lil right now, I coach high school football. Go into our weight room today and my starting linebacker comes up to me saying I'm really feeling stronger got on this stack from "complete" nutrition. I asked him what is was....."I don't know really, my dad tried to look up the products but couldn't find anything". So I asked him to send me pictures of all labels. Complete nutrition sold a 17 year old kid LGD....sorry but that company is ****ing bull****, tried to convince him not to take it due to being shut down and he did zero research on what he was putting into his body. He didn't care, this is why we can't have nice things! End of rant, sorry just really pisses me off.

How is this any different than what's been going on with PHs for the past decade+. High school kids around the world have been walking into supplement stores and going home with products they should not even be thinking about taking at their age and level of ignorance.

You say he showed it to his dad and he could not find any information about the product?! It seems apparent where he got his ignorance from. Has he heard of "the Google"?

Unfortunately it seems like the task of educating this kid falls in your lap as his coach even if it means, as BamBam said, suspending him from the team for using PED's.

 

[YouBet33]

How is this any different than what's been going on with PHs for the past decade+. High school kids around the world have been walking into supplement stores and going home with products they should not even be thinking about taking at their age and level of ignorance.

You say he showed it to his dad and he could not find any information about the product?! It seems apparent where he got his ignorance from. Has he heard of "the Google"?

Unfortunately it seems like the task of educating this kid falls in your lap as his coach even if it means, as BamBam said, suspending him from the team for using PED's.

Very true, I am going to sit down and talk to him today about his decision

 

[YouBet33]

Anyways sorry to get off topic yates84, back to question about sarms!

 

[fro60ol]

Very true, I am going to sit down and talk to him today about his decision

If you don't mind please post here (or new thread) what the outcome was of your conversation with him. Just wondering his thoughts.

 

[YouBet33]

If you don't mind please post here (or new thread) what the outcome was of your conversation with him. Just wondering his thoughts.

Sure no problem

 

[Joedoubledose]

Sure no problem

You being a football coach puts you in a good position of influence on a highschool student especially since he's on the team . I'm sure you'll be able to talk sense into him , I think a good way to help him rethink his decision would be by you mentioning alternatives to help increase his performance that are safe and legal . You got this !

 

[YouBet33]

You being a football coach puts you in a good position of influence on a highschool student especially since he's on the team . I'm sure you'll be able to talk sense into him , I think a good way to help him rethink his decision would be by you mentioning alternatives to help increase his performance that are safe and legal . You got this !

I agree, the kid is 17, prime growing time! Creatine, protein, FOOD! And some hard work is all he needs

 

[Joedoubledose]

I agree, the kid is 17, prime growing time! Creatine, protein, FOOD! And some hard work is all he needs

You can make a good impression , there's a special bond between coach and player that can be made at the highschool/college level that will influence a kid for possible the rest of their life

 

[aasdferic]

anyone know if focus nutrition mk677 is legit? sad I can't get anymore from OL...

 

[BigGame84]

So what's the current verdict on YK-11? Worth buying? Is focused nutrition legit? DNA anabolics legit?

 

[cheeky1]

Running 3 sarms because Osta/LGD seems to be a very common stack and RAD has anabolic effects while minimizing androgenic ones - this seems desirable. Sounds like swapping out Osta for Dermacrine will be an overall improvement then?

I think you are over-complicating things. The Tri-Dermal is a good 3 Prohormone stack but is unnecessary and not the best option for a base; Not to mention it has 1-Andro in it which can add to lethargy.

Keep it simple. Dermacrine - start @ 2 pumps ED and adjust up as needed or...4-Andro - start @ 200mg ED and adjust up as needed or...EpiAndro - start @ 300mg ED and adjust up as needed. Pick one and enjoy. I'd recommend Dermacrine; It has never done me wrong.

Agreed! For your first foray into SARMs you're learning to drive a nascar blindfolded with 1 arm tied behind your back. Backpeddle a little & focus on your goals. Seems like size is a primary objective, so run rad as the kicker & LGD to finish, as previously suggested.
Toren has given you some sound advice there. 3 pumps/day of dermacrine will last you near 6 weeks, that's about the minimum for a guy. 4 pumps is most commonly used, which brings you back to 4 weeks to a bottle. If you want to run Dermacrine from the start, grab 2 bottles.
Alternatively get yourself a bottle of Androvar & run 200mg of epiandro per day for the 8 weeks, that should suffice as your test base & is most economical.

 

[cheeky1]

Lol just frustrated with that guy from before. You're so patient dude!!!

Hadn't picked you as the impatient type mate...

 

[NewAgeMayan]

So is it a good idea, bad idea, or neutral to run SARMs for 12 weeks? I was suggested earlier in this thread to do 8 with LGD then end with 4 weeks RAD, which I am currently planning on since I saw the benefit of seeing how I do on LGD, then RAD. Any down sides to this?

You were gonna do a non-overlapping run, right? I dont think there is anything 'wrong' with your cycle.

 

[spqrroma]

I am finishing the 7th week of use of LGD (4/4/8/8/12/12/12) + MK ( 10/10/20/20/30/30/20) + dermacrine (3/4 pumps). All from OL uk and 1st time that i use something (46 yo training from years).
So far good results (weight from 72kg to 79kg 70/30% free mass/fat and strength improvement) with few sides (little lethargy and bloat).
My original goal was 8 weeks of length but i have in my hands also Radar1ne, received in the last days, so i'm thinking if is it ok to finish my cycle with 4 weeks of Rad (8/8/12/12) + last week of LGD (or lgd for a total of 11 weeks?).
My PCT will be clomid+super pct + ep1c unleashed.
Thanks.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Correct. Just making sure my gameplan is solid before I start next week. Changing to a 6 day routine and micro-managing my diet and data through my cycle, pct and beyond so I can get a good idea on how I'm affected.
Got my baseline bloodwork and hoping my doc allows me to get at least post PCT bloodwork done (in MD it's not possible to get those cheap bloodwork services due to law, so I have to convince my doc and insurance I need it).

Looks like you are on top of things. What you got for cycle support?

 

[dronkey]

You'll need a base if you're gonna run 12 weeks imo. I felt suppressed after 3-4 weeks of lgd so I can't imagine going 12 weeks. This time I'm running a base of dermacrine and epiandro and I feel great so far (besides a little cold).

 

[bobi593]

So what's the current verdict on YK-11? Worth buying? Is focused nutrition legit? DNA anabolics legit?

DNA Anabolics is probably OK but look the price is sick!!!!

 

[Whacked]

DNA Anabolics is probably OK but look the price is sick!!!!

Is DNA Anabolics a reputable trustworthy company?

 

[yates84]

I don't have any blood pressure issues but I was looking at having Hawthorne berry on hand in case. I hear mixed things on liver support being needed. Tudca enough or is there a better route to take? I also have Dermacrine on hand in case of lethargy becoming too much of an issue. If I'm missing anything please let me know.

Hawthorne berry would be a big problem for you if you start taking it after you get high bp. Hawthorne can actually spike bp when you first start taking it, that's why it's advised to preload it. A basic cycle support would not be a bad idea but something like 250mg of tudca and a gram of NAC should have you covered (this is what I usually use)

 

[GreenMachineX]

Hawthorne berry would be a big problem for you if you start taking it after you get high bp. Hawthorne can actually spike bp when you first start taking it, that's why it's advised to preload it. A basic cycle support would not be a bad idea but something like 250mg of tudca and a gram of NAC should have you covered (this is what I usually use)

250mg of TUDCA is all that's required for liver support??? The label says to take 1 cap 4 times a day...?

 

[yates84]

Good to know. I didn't realize that about Hawthorne berry. Thanks!

Just preload it for 2 weeks and you will be gtg. I used to have big bp issues on cycle but a heavy dose of hb takes care of me completely. Something like potassium nitrate would be better for helping control bp spikes.

 

[yates84]

250mg of TUDCA is all that's required for liver support??? The label says to take 1 cap 4 times a day...?

Its what I take on a sarm cycle along with nac. You can definitely run tudca higher but I see no point unless you're on methyls.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Its what I take on a sarm cycle along with nac. You can definitely run tudca higher but I see no point unless you're on methyls.

Ohhhh gotcha. Thanks.

 

[cheeky1]

Its what I take on a sarm cycle along with nac. You can definitely run tudca higher but I see no point unless you're on methyls.

Do you find the addition of NAC gives you a little extra energy, or vitality? What dose NAC do you run?

 

[jmaplewood]

Hey guys I'm about to start my first pct. Ran 8 weeks osta rx @ 20/day along with anafuse. Current plan is clomid 50/25/25/10 with ad-3 pct by lecheek ( 800 mg mucuna, 360 mg milk thistle, 75 mg arimistane) and DAA 3000mgs. I was going to run eradicate after the 30 days of pct to make sure there's no rebound, as well as help tighten things up. Sound like a good plan? Also have cardarine, should I add it to the mix to help keep my gains/keep gaining? Was eating 800 over maintenance on cycle, gradually dropping that to 2-300 over after 2 weeks of pct

 

[yates84]

Do you find the addition of NAC gives you a little extra energy, or vitality? What dose NAC do you run?

Never really noticed any energy but usually run a gram of NAC ed on cycle.

 

[yates84]

Hey guys I'm about to start my first pct. Ran 8 weeks osta rx @ 20/day along with anafuse. Current plan is clomid 50/25/25/10 with ad-3 pct by lecheek ( 800 mg mucuna, 360 mg milk thistle, 75 mg arimistane) and DAA 3000mgs. I was going to run eradicate after the 30 days of pct to make sure there's no rebound, as well as help tighten things up. Sound like a good plan? Also have cardarine, should I add it to the mix to help keep my gains/keep gaining? Was eating 800 over maintenance on cycle, gradually dropping that to 2-300 over after 2 weeks of pct

Sounds fine, I don't see anything wrong with it. Carderine is great in pct, definitely helps with a little extra endurance.

 

[jmaplewood]

Awesome, thanks Yates! This was my first successful bulk, going to recomp during my off time and clean bulk again before summer so I don't have as much to cut. Have rad, mass gh, gharine now I just need to plan a good cycle.

 

[yates84]

Awesome, thanks Yates! This was my first successful bulk, going to recomp during my off time and clean bulk again before summer so I don't have as much to cut. Have rad, mass gh, gharine now I just need to plan a good cycle.

If you bulked sucessfully on osta then rad and mass gh should blow you up like crazy. Just hit me up when you're ready to set that cycle up.

 

[jmaplewood]

Will do for sure! Looking forward to it. Gained 16 lbs on cycle, I'd estimate 1/3 of that lean. Hopefully keep it after pct.

 

[cubs1987]

Sounds fine, I don't see anything wrong with it. Carderine is great in pct, definitely helps with a little extra endurance.

Hmmm peaked my interest... What would you run the card at?

 

[yates84]

Hmmm peaked my interest... What would you run the card at?

Start at 7mg (1 cap) and go from there. 2 caps is where I usually run it.

 

[Bigdumogre]

Only 2 weeks left on osta
Kinda happy and sad lol

 

[warpyfunch]

New cycle starting today! This will be my 3rd SARM cycle. Looking at 8 weeks total, with a combo of RAD and Osta. Want to start off with the RAD this time, as that seemed to kick in really fast on my last run, and then transition to osta solo for the remaining weeks. Like this:

Phase 1: 12mg RAD + 15mg Osta, split dose AM/PM
(That'll be 4mg RAD + 10mg Osta AM and 8mg RAD + 5mg Osta PM, due to the nature of the caps.)

Phase 2: 20mg Osta, split dose 10mg AM/PM

Debating how many weeks to do phase 1. I want to use RAD basically as a kick start, and drop it before any sides set in. Can't decide if that will be 2 weeks or 3 weeks... opinions requested.

On cycle supports:
NAC - 1000mg/day
TUDCA - 250mg, based on yates' post above
Ubiquinol - 100mg/day
Mucuna Puriens (15% L-Dopa) - 2400mg (360mg L-Dopa) opinions on dosage, please?
Exemestane - on hand, will not use unless necessary

PCT:
Clomid ------- 50/25/25/12.5/00
Exemestane - 00/00/00/12.5/12.5
NAC - same as above
Ubiquinol - same as above
Mucuna Puriens - same as above

Will also be using 10mg MK677 daily all the way through and beyond pct. Started that a few weeks ago already.

This is my first time putting together OTC supports myself, as opposed to an all-in-one. Comments/opinions on anything much appreciated.

 

[yates84]

New cycle starting today! This will be my 3rd SARM cycle. Looking at 8 weeks total, with a combo of RAD and Osta. Want to start off with the RAD this time, as that seemed to kick in really fast on my last run, and then transition to osta solo for the remaining weeks. Like this:

Phase 1: 12mg RAD + 15mg Osta, split dose AM/PM
(That'll be 4mg RAD + 10mg Osta AM and 8mg RAD + 5mg Osta PM, due to the nature of the caps.)

Phase 2: 20mg Osta, split dose 10mg AM/PM

Debating how many weeks to do phase 1. I want to use RAD basically as a kick start, and drop it before any sides set in. Can't decide if that will be 2 weeks or 3 weeks... opinions requested.

On cycle supports:
NAC - 1000mg/day
TUDCA - 250mg, based on yates' post above
Ubiquinol - 100mg/day
Mucuna Puriens (15% L-Dopa) - 2400mg (360mg L-Dopa) opinions on dosage, please?
Exemestane - on hand, will not use unless necessary

PCT:
Clomid ------- 50/25/25/12.5/00
Exemestane - 00/00/00/12.5/12.5
NAC - same as above
Ubiquinol - same as above
Mucuna Puriens - same as above

Will also be using 10mg MK677 daily all the way through and beyond pct. Started that a few weeks ago already.

This is my first time putting together OTC supports myself, as opposed to an all-in-one. Comments/opinions on anything much appreciated.

Looks good! Should be a good cycle.

 

[cheeky1]

Never really noticed any energy but usually run a gram of NAC ed on cycle.

Ta for that. I like NAC & have run it solo to see if it would boost energy via the Glutathione conversion. Didn't appear to for me either, but I make sure it's in any on cycle & pct product that I run.

 

[cheeky1]

New cycle starting today! This will be my 3rd SARM cycle. Looking at 8 weeks total, with a combo of RAD and Osta. Want to start off with the RAD this time, as that seemed to kick in really fast on my last run, and then transition to osta solo for the remaining weeks. Like this:

Phase 1: 12mg RAD + 15mg Osta, split dose AM/PM
(That'll be 4mg RAD + 10mg Osta AM and 8mg RAD + 5mg Osta PM, due to the nature of the caps.)

Phase 2: 20mg Osta, split dose 10mg AM/PM

Debating how many weeks to do phase 1. I want to use RAD basically as a kick start, and drop it before any sides set in. Can't decide if that will be 2 weeks or 3 weeks... opinions requested.

On cycle supports:
NAC - 1000mg/day
TUDCA - 250mg, based on yates' post above
Ubiquinol - 100mg/day
Mucuna Puriens (15% L-Dopa) - 2400mg (360mg L-Dopa) opinions on dosage, please?
Exemestane - on hand, will not use unless necessary

PCT:
Clomid ------- 50/25/25/12.5/00
Exemestane - 00/00/00/12.5/12.5
NAC - same as above
Ubiquinol - same as above
Mucuna Puriens - same as above

Will also be using 10mg MK677 daily all the way through and beyond pct. Started that a few weeks ago already.

This is my first time putting together OTC supports myself, as opposed to an all-in-one. Comments/opinions on anything much appreciated.

Why split the osta dose in phase 2? once daily is no less beneficial. And why 20mg & not more?
What is the makeup of the Rad bottle...is it OL Radar1ne? If so why not run it at that 4 + 8mg protocol for 4 weeks & see the bottle out? Then run your osta at 20/25mg for another 4+ weeks.
That should be a sweet run. I can't recall anyone having difficulties from 4 weeks of Rad (please speak up if anyone knows otherwise) & you've got a great on cycle & pct setup there.

 

[yates84]

Why split the osta dose in phase 2? once daily is no less beneficial. And why 20mg & not more?
What is the makeup of the Rad bottle...is it OL Radar1ne? If so why not run it at that 4 + 8mg protocol for 4 weeks & see the bottle out? Then run your osta at 20/25mg for another 4+ weeks.
That should be a sweet run. I can't recall anyone having difficulties from 4 weeks of Rad (please speak up if anyone knows otherwise) & you've got a great on cycle & pct setup there.

Rad seems to be best at 4 weeks. After 4 weeks the gains slow down and side effects like lethargy really start to show. I love osta at 15mg, personally I would never run a higher dose than 20mg. Not saying 25mg is a bad idea but I don't find it necessary for myself. Split dosing the osta is no big deal but I agree that the whole osta dose pwo would be best.

 

[cheeky1]

Rad seems to be best at 4 weeks. After 4 weeks the gains slow down and side effects like lethargy really start to show. I love osta at 15mg, personally I would never run a higher dose than 20mg. Not saying 25mg is a bad idea but I don't find it necessary for myself. Split dosing the osta is no big deal but I agree that the whole osta dose pwo would be best.

That's what i'm thinking...and if any lethargy does rear it's ugly head, it'll likely be from approximately week 3 onward & can easily be countered by adding a good squeeze of Dermacrine for the remaining 4 - 5 weeks. That would be beneficial for a little estrogen control too, make the PCT transition a bit easier.

Never tried osta at less than 20mg myself. Maybe a later cycle i'll see what effect it has on me at 15mg, for now it's 20 - 25mg.

 

[warpyfunch]

These are all good questions! Most of it comes down to personal preference and completely unfounded hypotheses...

Why split the osta dose in phase 2? once daily is no less beneficial.

Absolutely true, no one has ever shown that either strategy is better than the other, but at the very least, split dosing is also not any worse. I don't feel like split dosing is a nuisance, and I have no problem remembering to take it, so why not? Someone did post some nice graphs a while back, I think maybe in this thread, that showed when all the math was done that while the same overall average blood saturation was reached both ways in the same amount of time, split dosing kept the level more stable with less dramatic peaks and valleys.

Again, not saying there's any proven benefit to more stable levels, but I like the idea and it may even give me a nice placebo effect! I also like to think that splitting it gives me better absorption, which results in more good placebo effect. If there's a strong argument against split dosing besides just plain convenience, I haven't heard it, but I'm always open to being corrected.

And why 20mg & not more?

20mg is the sweet spot for me. 25mg may give a slightly stronger effect, but to me it's not worth the increased sides. I'm big on cost/benefit analysis. Everyone has their own personal philosophy with this stuff, and for me I'm not one who goes after gains at any cost. I would rather end up with a little less gains if it means a lot less sides and an easier recovery, which is why SARMs were such a godsend for me.

sanmarino has done some nice write ups on this idea... like if you rate the benefits and sides on an arbitrary scale of 1-10... Something like if 20mg gives an 8/10 benefit with 2/10 sides, while 25mg gives a 10/10 effect with 7/10 sides, you then have to decide if that extra 5/10 sides is really worth the 2/10 better effect. He said it better. Anyway, in my previous cycles I've experimented with doses as low as 10mg and as high as 25mg, and 20mg is where I feel I strike the best balance before the side effect curve starts outpacing the benefits. I'm also only 5'8 180lbs, so for someone who's 200+ they might be able to handle more.

What is the makeup of the Rad bottle...is it OL Radar1ne? If so why not run it at that 4 + 8mg protocol for 4 weeks & see the bottle out? Then run your osta at 20/25mg for another 4+ weeks.
That should be a sweet run. I can't recall anyone having difficulties from 4 weeks of Rad (please speak up if anyone knows otherwise) & you've got a great on cycle & pct setup there.

It is OL. Two reasons... first, in my previous RAD experience, the best benefits seemed to come in the first two weeks, starting to plateau a bit in week 3, and by week 4 the sides and lethargy started to kick in. Again with the cost/benefit analysis, I didn't feel like the 4th week was worth the trouble. Based on how quickly the rad started working its magic, and given that it seemed like it would be best used for very short cycles, I thought it might be best used as a kick start at the front of a cycle with another compound that takes longer to get going. So this is less a full on RAD+osta stack, and more of an osta cycle with a RAD kickstart. Dma's early solo log showed a similar result that backed up my own experience.

Then again, in that cycle I had done the reverse, where I started with osta and added the rad at the end, so the 4th week of rad was really the 8th and final week of the entire cycle.. Maybe doing it this way will yield a different experience with sides. We'll see! Experimenting to find the best way to use these compounds is part of the fun.

Second, while I did stock up on quite a bit of rad during the blowout sale, as far as I can tell right now, it's a finite quantity and when it's gone, it's gone maybe forever. By stopping after 3 weeks, I'm in theory getting the best part of the cycle and saving 25% for down the line. And by the time I stop the rad, the osta should really be in full effect at about that same point, and on through the remaining weeks.

 

[AustBenny]

Gainz > sides.

All day.

Every day.

 

[warpyfunch]

Gainz > sides.

All day.

Every day.

A perfectly valid viewpoint. Me, I'm not competitive, I'm in this mainly for fun. Sides are no fun.

 

[AustBenny]

Lol, what possible sides are you getting from 20mg ostarine anyways?

 

[warpyfunch]

Lol, what possible sides are you getting from 20mg ostarine anyways?

Practically none. That's the point.

When I went up to 25mg I saw no additional benefit, so it was at best a waste of pills, and at worst making recovery take unnecessarily longer. Maybe I'll try it again someday, who knows. Also, these being extremely new compounds, with absolutely no clue what the long term effects might be, I think it's prudent to use the lowest dose that gives a result I'll be satisfied with. 15mg was effective, but 20mg was noticeable better. 25mg wasn't better enough to be worth it. Everyone's gotta decide these things for themselves, right?

 

[AustBenny]

How long did you stick at 25mg for?

EDIT: I started osta at 20mg for the first four or so weeks, when i kicked it to 25mg I saw substantial improvements in body composition and more importantly strength.

 

[warpyfunch]

How long did you stick at 25mg for?

2 weeks. I also didn't notice any let down at all when I dropped back to 20.

All of this is entirely subjective and anecdotal. There's never going to be any scientific studies large enough to really show the quantitative benefit of 20 vs 25, so that's all I have to go by.

 

[AustBenny]

See, I don't personally think that's long enough to comprehensively assess anything. That's just like if you do a new workout for 2 weeks and don't see immediate gains.

I dunno man, agree to disagree and all that- I think with osta two things stand out:

(1) Cost. This stuff is cheap as chips. I wouldn't be worried about 1 pill a day over eight weeks - 56 pills in a bottle of 240? It's nothing.

(2) Sides. The stuff is pretty much side effect free anywhere up to 30mg. Unless of course 50mg in which case you might see adverse liver values or other such stuff we don't even know about anecdotally because nobody is taking 50mgs to speak about it.

(2)(b) Don't argue to me that the shut down is worse or recovery is harder over an extra 5mg. Shut down is shut down. The thing that impacts shut down the most is time spent on. Wanna run 6 months of 25mg osta? Yep, gonna be a b*tch to recover. 12 weeks? Not so much.

 

[warpyfunch]

See, I don't personally think that's long enough to comprehensively assess anything. That's just like if you do a new workout for 2 weeks and don't see immediate gains.

I dunno man, agree to disagree and all that- I think with osta two things stand out:

(1) Cost. This stuff is cheap as chips. I wouldn't be worried about 1 pill a day over eight weeks - 56 pills in a bottle of 240? It's nothing.

(2) Sides. The stuff is pretty much side effect free anywhere up to 30mg. Unless of course 50mg in which case you might see adverse liver values or other such stuff we don't even know about anecdotally because nobody is taking 50mgs to speak about it.

(2)(b) Don't argue to me that the shut down is worse or recovery is harder over an extra 5mg. Shut down is shut down. The thing that impacts shut down the most is time spent on. Wanna run 6 months of 25mg osta? Yep, gonna be a b*tch to recover. 12 weeks? Not so much.

All very fair points. But I'm not arguing with you about anything, only discussing, both as a sounding board for my own education, and maybe for the benefit of others who might read this one day down the line.

I fully admit I'm not the most experienced guy with this stuff. This is only my 3rd sarm cycle, and I've only done one additional cycle (halodrol) that was over a decade ago when I was much younger and dumber and even think about this stuff at all. But now I do my own research as best I can, listen to what my body tells me, factor in the experiences of others that I trust, and draw my own conclusions. What more can anyone do?