Post Cycle Therapy: A User's Guide

[yates84]

When any exogenous hormone (such as SARM's, anabolic androgenic steriods, pro-hormones, or designer steroids) is used, your natural testosterone production will be suppressed. When the use of these exogenous hormones is discontinued natural testosterone production will still be suppressed, and if left to recover naturally will take an extended period of time. A PCT, or post cycle therapy, is used to help the recovery process happen much faster.
The backbone of every PCT should be a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator), such as Nolva or Clomid. Be careful NOT to confuse SERM with SARM (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator). SARM's, as previously stated, are suppressive. Thus, they will NOT help in the recovery process. A SERM is very effective at stimulating the pituitary gland to release more luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. As a result, the testicles will be stimulated to produce more testosterone. The hormone that was used while on cycle plays a big factor in when to start PCT. SARM's, Pro-hormones, and designer steroids all have a short half life (usually 24 hrs or less). So, PCT needs to be started the day after your last cycle dose. Anabolic androgenic steroids are different, because of the esters used to prolong half life. With large ester AAS's, the user will want to wait 14-18 days before beginning PCT. While for smaller ester AAS's it is recommended the user wait 3-5 days before beginning their PCT.
There is an important rule when cycling exogenous hormones....time on cycle + PCT = time off cycle. This allows the body to reach homeostasis again, and stay that way for a an appropriate amount of time. Following this rule allows for the least amount of strain on the HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis), and lessoning the chance of permanent HPTA shutdown. PCT should NOT be used if the user plans to use any exogenous hormones sooner than time on + PCT = time off . It is better to leave testosterone levels low, rather than "roller-coaster" the natural hormones up and down. To "roller-coaster" the hormones can put a lot of stress on the body and can permanently damage the HPTA.
There are OTC (over the counter) PCT options also available. These are usually all-in-one supplements that help boost testosterone, but can also help encourage healthy blood pressure levels and lipid profile. These are great supplements to use IN ADDITION TO a SERM. SERM's are pharmaceutical grade drugs that require a doctor's prescription to obtain. There are some "gray area" ways of obtaining a SERM, but more independent research will need to be done, on the user's behalf, on this option.
Aromatase inhibitors, or AI's, are another popular PCT tool. Aromatase inhibitors bind to the aromatase enzyme. Which, in turn, keeps the body from turning testosterone into estrogen. Controlling estrogen is very important during PCT. When estrogen levels are low, luteinizing hormone rises. As a result, the testes are signaled to make more testosterone so that the testosterone can be turned into estrogen. When estrogen is too high, luteinizing hormone is lowered causing testosterone production to decline.
There are 2 types of aromatase inhibitors....irreversible and reversible. Irreversible AI's (exemestane, armistane) permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme, permanently deactivating it. As a result, this means there is less of a chance of rebound. So, and irreversible AI is best suited for PCT. Reversible AI's (anastrazole, letrozole) are non-steroidal and inhibit the synthesis of estrogen, through reversible competition for the aromatase enzyme. Reversible AI's are better suited for on cycle, and being used in conjunction with aromatizing AAS's, PH's, and DS's.

SERM Descriptions and Dosing

Clomid - Clomiphene citrate is a first generation SERM that is very powerful and has a high affinity for the estrogen receptor. Clomid is mainly used for PCT, since it is not optimal for gyno protection. One should be aware that Clomid can cause emotional side effects.
PCT dosing
Clomid - 50/50/25/25

Nolvadex - tamoxifen citrate is a first generation SERM that is very powerful and has a high affinity for the estrogen receptor, more specifically in breast tissue. Nolva can help restart the HPTA during PCT. However, it can also be used on cycle (in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor) for gyno protection. This is the perfect protocol for PH/DS/AAS that aromatize heavily or aromatize into methyl estrogen, such as dianabol and trestolone.
PCT dosing
Nolva - 20/20/10/10
On cycle dosing
Nolva - 10mg ed with Exemestane @ 12.5mg eod or Adex @ .5mg eod
*adjust as needed*

Fareston - toremifene citrate is a second generation SERM that has far less of a chance of side effects and is less liver toxic compared to first generation SERM's. Torem does encourage HPTA restart, but also increases SHBG. An increase in SHBG means a decrease in free testosterone. Torem has been shown to be about 50% less effective at raising LH levels than Clomid and Nolva. Anecdotal reports still show full recovery using Toremin PCT. If a user can't handle Clomid side effects, Torem might be for them.
PCT dosing
Torem - 90/90/60/30

Raloxifene - Ralox is a second generation SERM that is less liver toxic and has a lower chance of side effects than a first generation SERM. Ralox is not favorable for HPTA restart. However, because of its very high affinity for the estrogen receptor specifically in breast tissue, it makes it the perfect SERM for on cycle gyno prevention and even gyno reversal. Ralox should be the preferred choice over Nolva on cycle for gyno protection. Ralox is more expensive to source though. As a result, it is more often counterfeited than Nolva. If a user does not have access to pharma grade ancillaries then they should opt for the more readily available Nolva.

On Cycle gyno protection
Ralox - 60mg ed
Exemestane 12.5mg eod or Armidex .5mg eod

Gyno Reversal Protocol
Ralox - 120mg ed
Exemestane - 12.5mg eod
*One should follow this protocol until lumps have subsided. At which point the Ralox dose should be reduced to 60mg ed and continued for another 4 weeks, and exemestane should be continued at 12.5mg eod for another 6 weeks. Continuing the exemestane for 2 weeks after discontinuing the Ralox helps prevent rebound.

 

[BamBam0319]

Great info Yates. And yet still there will be dozens of new threads each day, asking about whether they need a SERM or not.
At least now we have somewhere to direct them to

 

[Burnfire]

Good information bro! Another user guide to answer questions!! Great work!

 

[Burnfire]

Great info Yates. And yet still there will be dozens of new threads each day, asking about whether they need a SERM or not.
At least now we have somewhere to direct them to

Start linking them all to this thread

 

[BamBam0319]

Start linking them all to this thread

Exactly! Gonna have the link address memorized in about a week

 

[Burnfire]

Exactly! Gonna have the link address memorized in about a week

Got it saved in my notes of informant links for quick reference

 

[hamdysayed]

Great post yates84, is there is anyway you can have a setup for specific types of cycle assists and pct etc setups for example
Epistane and its likes
cycle assist
epistane and it's likes
pct.
Once again great post bro.

 

[jgntyce]

Thank you Professor Yates!!! You da man!!!

 

[Bigdumogre]

Yates if you weren't married I would do you
No homo
Solid info

 

[yates84]

Great post yates84, is there is anyway you can have a setup for specific types of cycle assists and pct etc setups for example
Epistane and its likes
cycle assist
epistane and it's likes
pct.
Once again great post bro.

I can't go too in to detail without naming specific brands and that could possibly turn in to a rep war. I want to keep this as generic as possible for the longevity of the thread.

 

[jgntyce]

I can't go too in to detail without naming specific brands and that could possibly turn in to a rep war. I want to keep this as generic as possible for the longevity of the thread.

And that is why you are a stand up guy...

 

[hamdysayed]

I can't go too in to detail without naming specific brands and that could possibly turn in to a rep war. I want to keep this as generic as possible for the longevity of the thread.

ahhhh I see, didn't think of it this way... that would have been awesome tho.
maybe if u say like
For epistane and it's likes
cycle assist should contain liver support bp support
trenavar and it's likes
prolactin support
AI support
bp support.
just an idea.
but I agree with ur logic tho

 

[UncleSarm]

Great post!
Do you use the same PCT (length, amounts) regardless of what compound you use? I would assume that there would be a difference between light suppression and hard shutdown, or am I interpreting this wrong? In the SARMs user's guide you show PCT lasting only 3 weeks instead of 4.

 

[Toren]

Awesome. So, I just read through your write-up and if I'm interpreting it correctly, I should be able to do a 16 week Ostarine cycle with a 2 week Arimistane/Tribulus PCT. I need you to rubberstamp that for me.........go!

 

[Toren]

Seriously though, it's nice to see some of this all in one place. It should help out some young bucs.

Hopefully people treat this write-up as a guideline (great tool) and continue to do their own research about the compounds they ingest and how they work!

 

[rtmilburn]

All great and accurate information. yates84 really knows his stuff and always post great stuff. Although I feel like prolactin is often forgot about in pct. High prolactin levels can make for an unsuccessful pct, even when everything else is perfect. This is where parmi comes in. There are actually a few studies done on parmi and hpta restoration. However parmis' use should be very limited. This is because of its possible harsh side effects. That is why the compounds being used should be considered when setting up pct, like 19nors and compounds that have progesterone activity.

 

[mountainman33]

Needs to be made a sticky.

 

[rtmilburn]

Needs to be made a sticky.

Agreed

 

[NattyBoy]

Good ass info! The part about serms and ai's often being counterfeited when they generally are expensive to source is true af, so be careful looking for research chemicals for your rats, if its too cheap compared to other sources and whatnot, it's probably bunk

 

[carmaf]

I don't know **** about any of this stuff, but now if I want to learn, I have a comprehensive thread on AM from which to do so. Repped.

 

[sanmarino]

Good job, yates84. I'm in

I have just five small notes from my side:
- The mentioned dosages are good but it always depends on the used steroid, too.
- Tamoxifene is a special compound whose effect truly shines after six weeks. All the other SERM are fine with a usage of four weeks.
- The 2nd generation SERM like Raloxifene or Toremifene are weaker in its effects but also in its side effects. But don't underestimate them! They are still potent. In not that harsh cycles it would be optimal to use them instead of the 1st generation SERM (Clomid or Tamox, for example).
- Again: as yates say: use SERM in PCT and not during cycle. Tamox for example will reduce IGF-1 which is responsible for muscle growth (one of the important factors in our body). Not that strong and it's reversible but just as a note.
- When stacking SERM - after a heavy cycle for example - some combinations work synergethic and others don't make sense.

I'm personally a fan of irreversible AI like Exemestan Only small amounts of it - 6.25mg or even 3.125mg - are potent enough to keep the estrogen controlled. When ending an AI which only blocks and not eliminates the estrogen on an individual size the risk is higher, that there will be an estrogen rebound (when having a still high estrogen value).

san

 

[yates84]

Thanks for everyone's input! There is definitely more that could be added to this just like much more info could be added to the other guides. Feel free to post whatever additional info you have in here, this thread is here as a reference so anything you feel needs to be added just post it up! I may eventually edit the op after hearing more input. Thank you!

 

[UncleSarm]

Awesome. So, I just read through your write-up and if I'm interpreting it correctly, I should be able to do a 16 week Ostarine cycle with a 2 week Arimistane/Tribulus PCT. I need you to rubberstamp that for me.........go!

The Ostarine will be dosed at 50mg. Twice daily. Now you're gtg!

Oh, and I second making this sticky. Same with the SARM user's guide.

 

[Lucianooo]

When any exogenous hormone (such as SARM's, anabolic androgenic steriods, pro-hormones, or designer steroids) is used, your natural testosterone production will be suppressed. When the use of these exogenous hormones is discontinued natural testosterone production will still be suppressed, and if left to recover naturally will take an extended period of time. A PCT, or post cycle therapy, is used to help the recovery process happen much faster.
The backbone of every PCT should be a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator), such as Nolva or Clomid. Be careful NOT to confuse SERM with SARM (Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator). SARM's, as previously stated, are suppressive. Thus, they will NOT help in the recovery process. A SERM is very effective at stimulating the pituitary gland to release more luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. As a result, the testicles will be stimulated to produce more testosterone. The hormone that was used while on cycle plays a big factor in when to start PCT. SARM's, Pro-hormones, and designer steroids all have a short half life (usually 24 hrs or less). So, PCT needs to be started the day after your last cycle dose. Anabolic androgenic steroids are different, because of the esters used to prolong half life. With large ester AAS's, the user will want to wait 14-18 days before beginning PCT. While for smaller ester AAS's it is recommended the user wait 3-5 days before beginning their PCT.
There is an important rule when cycling exogenous hormones....time on cycle + PCT = time off cycle. This allows the body to reach homeostasis again, and stay that way for a an appropriate amount of time. Following this rule allows for the least amount of strain on the HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis), and lessoning the chance of permanent HPTA shutdown. PCT should NOT be used if the user plans to use any exogenous hormones sooner than time on + PCT = time off . It is better to leave testosterone levels low, rather than "roller-coaster" the natural hormones up and down. To "roller-coaster" the hormones can put a lot of stress on the body and can permanently damage the HPTA.
There are OTC (over the counter) PCT options also available. These are usually all-in-one supplements that help boost testosterone, but can also help encourage healthy blood pressure levels and lipid profile. These are great supplements to use IN ADDITION TO a SERM. SERM's are pharmaceutical grade drugs that require a doctor's prescription to obtain. There are some "gray area" ways of obtaining a SERM, but more independent research will need to be done, on the user's behalf, on this option.
Aromatase inhibitors, or AI's, are another popular PCT tool. Aromatase inhibitors bind to the aromatase enzyme. Which, in turn, keeps the body from turning testosterone into estrogen. Controlling estrogen is very important during PCT. When estrogen levels are low, luteinizing hormone rises. As a result, the testes are signaled to make more testosterone so that the testosterone can be turned into estrogen. When estrogen is too high, luteinizing hormone is lowered causing testosterone production to decline.
There are 2 types of aromatase inhibitors....irreversible and reversible. Irreversible AI's (exemestane, armistane) permanently bind to the aromatase enzyme, permanently deactivating it. As a result, this means there is less of a chance of rebound. So, and irreversible AI is best suited for PCT. Reversible AI's (anastrazole, letrozole) are non-steroidal and inhibit the synthesis of estrogen, through reversible competition for the aromatase enzyme. Reversible AI's are better suited for on cycle, and being used in conjunction with aromatizing AAS's, PH's, and DS's.

SERM Descriptions and Dosing

Clomid - Clomiphene citrate is a first generation SERM that is very powerful and has a high affinity for the estrogen receptor. Clomid is mainly used for PCT, since it is not optimal for gyno protection. One should be aware that Clomid can cause emotional side effects.
PCT dosing
Clomid - 50/50/25/25

Nolvadex - tamoxifen citrate is a first generation SERM that is very powerful and has a high affinity for the estrogen receptor, more specifically in breast tissue. Nolva can help restart the HPTA during PCT. However, it can also be used on cycle (in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor) for gyno protection. This is the perfect protocol for PH/DS/AAS that aromatize heavily or aromatize into methyl estrogen, such as dianabol and trestolone.
PCT dosing
Nolva - 20/20/10/10
On cycle dosing
Nolva - 10mg ed with Exemestane @ 12.5mg eod or Adex @ .5mg eod
*adjust as needed*

Fareston - toremifene citrate is a second generation SERM that has far less of a chance of side effects and is less liver toxic compared to first generation SERM's. Torem does encourage HPTA restart, but also increases SHBG. An increase in SHBG means a decrease in free testosterone. Torem has been shown to be about 50% less effective at raising LH levels than Clomid and Nolva. Anecdotal reports still show full recovery using Toremin PCT. If a user can't handle Clomid side effects, Torem might be for them.
PCT dosing
Torem - 90/90/60/30

Raloxifene - Ralox is a second generation SERM that is less liver toxic and has a lower chance of side effects than a first generation SERM. Ralox is not favorable for HPTA restart. However, because of its very high affinity for the estrogen receptor specifically in breast tissue, it makes it the perfect SERM for on cycle gyno prevention and even gyno reversal. Ralox should be the preferred choice over Nolva on cycle for gyno protection. Ralox is more expensive to source though. As a result, it is more often counterfeited than Nolva. If a user does not have access to pharma grade ancillaries then they should opt for the more readily available Nolva.

On Cycle gyno protection
Ralox - 60mg ed
Exemestane 12.5mg eod or Armidex .5mg eod

Gyno Reversal Protocol
Ralox - 120mg ed
Exemestane - 12.5mg eod
*One should follow this protocol until lumps have subsided. At which point the Ralox dose should be reduced to 60mg ed and continued for another 4 weeks, and exemestane should be continued at 12.5mg eod for another 6 weeks. Continuing the exemestane for 2 weeks after discontinuing the Ralox helps prevent rebound.

:goodpost:

 

[yates84]

Stickies are nice but they are a one sided view. I love the fact that everyone can put their own opinions and add to the collective of information. You guys are what make these threads great, I just get them started.

 

[Alex281]

Great post,man.You should add this to the Sarm cycle thread.

 

[yates84]

Great post,man.You should add this to the Sarm cycle thread.

Good idea. I could even just add a link to this in the op.

 

[dave39]

Needs to be made a sticky.

Agreed, not enough of these guides / useful info ever seem to get stickied though

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I remember reading an interesting post in the PCT forum about toremifene potentially affecting heart (ventricle?) function...will have to hunt it out.

 

[yates84]

I remember reading an interesting post in the PCT forum about toremifene potentially affecting heart (ventricle?) function...will have to hunt it out.

Nice! Any info you come across that needs to be in here please add!

 

[warpyfunch]

Great thread.

Always interested in conversation regarding aromatase inhibitors' place in PCT alongside the SERM. While SERM protocols are more or less settled at this point, there are conflicting schools of thought for AI use and I don't think there's a clear consensus.

AI included as preventative measure, starting at or near the beginning of PCT, regardless of whether there are any signs of high estrogen
vs.
AI included as necessary only when high estrogen symptoms arise, discontinuing when they subside
vs.
no AI at all and giving the body time to dispose of excess estrogen on its own

and more, if the AI is included, do you stop it at the same time as the SERM, or run it for a week or two past the SERM?

For my own anecdotal contribution, I've always used arimistane during PCT, if only because it's always included in the OTC PCT products that I use along with the SERM, however it's a pretty weak AI anyway and I don't think about it that much. For a real AI, I keep exemestane on hand. I have gone through SERM PCT without using the exemestane at all, and have done it with using low dose exemestane starting a week into the SERM and continuing a week after stopping the SERM. Recovery was perfectly fine in both scenarios, however subjectively I felt 'better' with the addition of the exemestane.

 

[AustBenny]

I have some info on the various AIs that I can (re)post tmrw when I get to work.

 

[yates84]

I have some info on the various AIs that I can (re)post tmrw when I get to work.

Nice! Would like to see that.

 

[AustBenny]

Please note this is something i sourced from a post on another forum and I have made a few minor additions/edits. Credit should go to Kreas, whoever that is lol.

AIs

Keep in mind estrogen is good for you in many ways (libido, mood, skin quality, hair, nails etc) BUT most importantly estrogen is good for your liver. I am sure you have heard how arimidex and letrozole are bad for your liver values when aromasin is 'better', in reality all AI's are as bad as each other for your liver values. The moment you start lowering estrogen the worst your liver values will get doesn't matter what AI you use all it matters is how much you are lowering your estro. If you lower your estro say by 10nl/dl you wont notice much if you crash your estro down to single digits I guarantee you your hdl/ldl will be completely out of whack no matter what AI you used

Suicidal AI vs Non-Suicidal/binding AI

Adex and letro are non suicidal AIs, all they do is bind any estrogen you convert directly on your aromataze enzyme. Each AI binds a different percentage of estrogen, letro binds more than adex of course. Problem with biding AIs is once you seize use all the estro that had accumulated over the weeks/months you were using the AI suddenly gets released this process is called estrogen rebound and I am sure you know it can be far worse than estrogen while on a cycle since normally when you drop your AI you either cruise with a low dose of test or PCT. In both cases you have far less test in you and once all that estrogen is released you got a much higher chance of getting gyno and of course you are going to be bloated like a balloon and feel soft for weeks till your estro comes down to normal levels.

Aromasin is the new generation of AI, it's suicidal, the difference being with the other AIs is Aromasin will actually destroy/kill a certain percentage of your aromataze enzyme so by doing so it also kills any estrogen that was attached to that enzyme. Means when you stop using aromasin you wont rebound at all like you would with the binding AIs and if anything you will have to wait for a while for your body to start producing more aromataze (very bad if you crashed your estro comparing to the other AIs). Each person is different in the rate they create new aromataze for me it takes around 2 weeks for someone else it can take one or three weeks. Only way you can speed up the process is by using HGH, you can use all the dbol you want all the test suspension you want if you crashed your estro with aromasin and you don't have aromataze you wont even bloat from those compounds there wont be any estrogen conversion, also you will get 0 results from the dbol at least.

Arimidex aka Adex (Anastrozole)

Adex will lower your estro by about 50-60% of course if you keep taking it that percentage accumulates so you lower 50% by another 50% and so on, you can easily end up with your estradiol in the singles if you take it for long enough at a high enough dose and you aren't converting much estrogen from aromatizing gear (using low dose of test high dose AI). Adex imo is the best suited for trt purposes, reason being the rate of which it lowers estrogen compared to the other AI?s is smaller. For TRT purposes you only need 1mg of total adex per week to keep estro in range (e2= 20-25ng/dl=sweet spot)

Why adex is bad for blasting: This small posting has been posted on another forum by a doctor not my words but reflects a lot of my experiences with adex

"Adex is not particularly effective for drugs that tend to be subject to peripheral aromatization, methandrostanolone in particular. Often a full 2mg daily of Adex will still not stop dbol bloat and cramping. Arimidex is best at E1 suppression (tissue affinity, gonadal, adrenal, etc and because its a competitive inhibitor). it suppress e1 at even the lowest of doses, but takes rather high doses to see significant impact on peripheral aromatase"

While cutting with a low test dose and non aromatizing gear is as good as an AI as any but while bulking with compounds that aromatize heavily Adex is the worst AI you can use. No matter how much you use you will still be much more bloated than you would by using aromasin/letro

Common dose while blasting: 0.5mg ed/eod
TRT dosage: 0.25mg eod, 1mg e6-7d

Aromasin (Exemestane)

Hands down the best down for blasting but it does have its downsides. I found that the more you use aromasin the more senstitive you become to it. When starting out with aromasin even 25mg per day is a common dose for a mild cycle say 750mg test and 500mg deca. As time goes by the more you use it the less aromasin you will need, you will end up needing 12.5mg eod if not less for a mild cycle. It doesn't happen in a few days though it takes months. Another drawback of aromasin is hairloss, comparing to the other AI?s I found it makes me shed a lot more. Once side effect of aromasin is Alopecia, the other two AI?s have hairloss/hair thinning as a side effect but not full blown Alopecia.

Like mentioned earlier the biggest fear with aromasin is crashing estro to low. At this point all you can do is wait or up your hgh dose. Give it at least 10days before you start taking any more AI even if you are switching to say Adex.

The best write up about aromasin which reflects my experience with it 100% is here:

Aromasin - The King of Anti-Estrogens.

This post is kind of long, but take the time to read it, it's probably the most important thing you'll ever read if you're a BB'er (haha well maybe not, but there's some gold in here)

Exemestane, sold under the name Aromasin? by Pfizer, is an orally available suicidal aromatase inhibitor. <-- This sentence describes exactly why exemestane is the king of Anti-E's for bodybuilding purposes.

Because exemestane is steroidal this gives it a favorable estrogen suppression profile and confers a few really awesome benefits over other anti-estrogens both on paper and in real experience. Steroidal anti-estrogens have the benefit of being lipid-friendly and they all lower SHBG which increases the ratio of free to bound testosterone, which as many experienced BB'ers know can have a relatively profound positive impact on gains.

I think it is important to understand how drugs work in order to properly dose them, exemestane is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor, this means that it binds with aromatase enzymes and as it does so permanently disables the enzyme and destroys it. Hence the "suicidal" this chemical is like a kamikaze pilot out to destroy your aromatase enzymes which is what makes it so special.

Exemestane's half life in the male body is actually very short (~9 hours) and it is quickly eliminated, however, since as soon as it enters your bloodstream it quickly destroys 80-90% of the aromatase enzymes present in your body, it is effective in maintaining significant reductions in estrogen for up to 72 hours after a single 25mg dose. Estrogen levels only begin to rise again after your body has begun to make new aromatase enzymes to replace the ones destro by exemestane.

There is a great study on the pharmacokinetics of exemestane in men which found the following:
-24 hours after one 25mg dose estrogen levels are reduced by 70-80%
-72 hours later estrogen levels are still 40% below baseline even though the drug itself is almost completely eliminated
-120 hours after initial dose estrogen levels return to baseline (without rebounding)

this means that you can find the timing and dosage that works for you, I've seen some guys recommend between 25mg ED and 12.5mg e4d, and you can see why both are effective while providing different levels of estrogen suppression, and it is this flexibility that makes exemestane such a versatile Anti-E.

BUT WAIT, there's more. Aromasin is also a badass PCT drug! In males exemestane was found to increase total testosterone by ~60% after 10 days @ 25mg/day, however the same study found that while it increased total testosterone by 60% free testosterone was increased by over 100 percent! that's right, it DOUBLES bio-available testosterone (natty of course).

I can tell you this much, when I take aromasin for PCT the results are dramatic, honestly my Libido is never absent at any point during PCT and I absolutely feel great within a matter of days, and this is taking 12.5mg ED, the only side effect i notice is stiff joints and other stiff areas

The good:
-powerful aromatase inhibitor capable of stopping gynecomastia completely on its own (for aromatizing compounds)
-has powerful bloat-reduction effects
-lowers SHBG, increasing free test & makes all other anabolic steroids more bio-available (read: more gains)
-can actually boost Libido on and off cycle
-increases IGF-1
-NO adverse changes in lipid profiles for men (granted if you are using it on cycle this may be different)
-is NOT liver toxic
-no estrogen rebound

the bad:
-typical aromatase inhibitor issues here include stiff joints and possibly lethargy
-more difficult to come by than a-dex or letro

Appropriate uses for Exemestane:

#1) on cycle estrogen control - that's right, any and all estrogen related problems can and should be corrected with this compound, from gynecomastia to acne to bloat exemestane is a panacea, run it at 12.5mg e4d for gynecomastia protection and bloat control, or run it at 25mg ED for pre-contest or for gynecomastia sensitive individuals or moon face. the beauty of aromasin is it's okay to use preventatively and not just as spot treatment for gynecomastia as it doesn't hurt gains nearly to the degree that other Anti-E's do, I'd still recommend using Anti-E's only if you need them, but if you must use one throughout your cycle, you couldn't pick a better compound to use.

#2) PCT. Aromasin is the premier PCT drug in my experience... honestly PCT is kind of fun with aromasin (maybe that's a stretch) but it's a breeze, in terms of side effects, compared with clomid/nolva and significantly better than a-dex (more powerful and fewer sides). (REPOSTER'S NOTE - Clomid/Nolva are still an essential part of any PCT). It works excellently with HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - and keeps the extra aromatization from the HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - injects at bay (you can even run higher dosages of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - above 500iu/inject) and another bonus is since it's safe and comfortable to run for longer periods of time, you can stretch your PCT out to 6 or 8 weeks for suppressive cycles to make sure you get everything back in full working order

#3) gynecomastia reversal - in conjunction with a selective estrogen receptor modulator (raloxifene or tamoxifen) and/or a dihydrotestosterone derived compound aromasin can be effective in reversing/reducing existing gynecomastia

#4) off cycle testosterone boost - sometimes if I don't feel like running a cycle but still want a little extra kick I'll take 25mg EOD for 4-6 weeks, gains aren't improved all that greatly but significantly, but I do it more for the Libido/mental effects anyways.

#5) hypogonadism - so you're getting older, you've been cycling since you were 21 and your natty test levels just never get back in the good range, but you don't wanna go HRT??? aromasin will get you back in the game without having to take the plunge for HRT.

Inappropriate uses for exemestane:

#1) giving your gf hot flashes

Common dosages for blasting: 12.5mg ed/eod, 25mg ed/eod
TRT dosages: 6.25mg ed, 12.5mg 2-3 times per week


Letrozole

This is an AI you can do without its by far the harshest of all AIs not necessarily cause your estrogen will be too low, letrozole as a compound/active ingredient is really harsh

Ever climb up the stairs and felt as if you were dying same as a 500lb man would after taking two steps? That's what letro can do to you. My view on this is that it affects ones triglycerides, if you use letro long enough at max dose your triglycerides will be so high that even after climbing ten steps you will be struggling to breath

Only application of letro (which can be avoided/substituted with aromasin) is for contest prep, I would never use it for either bulk, cut or gyno reversal too many side effects for very little gain

Also ever took letro and still had nipple sentivity? Wonder why? Letro lowers shgb dramatically this allows free testosterone to spike and as a result free estrogen, this is the reason the letro gyno reversal protocol doesn't work (esp when its suggested to use it for one week only). In order to have low free estrogen (Which AI's cant lower) you need to drop your total estrogen low. However everyone trying to reverse gyno already have high estrogen and the moment you add letro you have a ton of free estrogen in your blood stream, which can make your gyno worse.. To protect against free estrogen you need a serm, that's why you cant have gyno reversal without a serm since all AI's lower shgb. Keep in mind you cant use nolva with adex or letro you minimize their efficiency by 40% that doesn't work vice versa though nolvadex efficiency stays at 100%.

Common dosage for blasting: 0.65mg ed/eod, 1.25mg ed/eod
Common dosage for gyno reversal - 2.5mg/ed tapering down to 1.25mg/ed tapering down to .65mg/ed

 

[Hastur]

I have to tip my hat to yates84 for his ceaseless work ethic when it comes to helping others. With all of the contradicting information that permeates the various online forums, it's threads like this that give people exactly what they're looking for. Clear, concise and applicable information.

This particular quote alone is worth repeating:

On Cycle gyno protection
Ralox - 60mg ed
Exemestane 12.5mg eod or Armidex .5mg eod

Gyno Reversal Protocol
Ralox - 120mg ed
Exemestane - 12.5mg eod
*One should follow this protocol until lumps have subsided. At which point the Ralox dose should be reduced to 60mg ed and continued for another 4 weeks, and exemestane should be continued at 12.5mg eod for another 6 weeks. Continuing the exemestane for 2 weeks after discontinuing the Ralox helps prevent rebound.

It cannot be overstated, if you are at risk for gynecomastia due to a heavily aromatizing hormonal compound, are prone to estrogenic side effects, or are unfortunate enough to experience estrogen rebound following post cycle therapy, THIS is the information you are looking for. THIS can save you the physical discomfort and mental discomfort that has plagued, and continues to plague, far too many men. Liked & Repped.

 

[warpyfunch]

Please note this is something i sourced from a post on another forum and I have made a few minor additions/edits. Credit should go to Kreas, whoever that is lol.

...

Appropriate uses for Exemestane:

#1) on cycle estrogen control - that's right, any and all estrogen related problems can and should be corrected with this compound, from gynecomastia to acne to bloat exemestane is a panacea, run it at 12.5mg e4d for gynecomastia protection and bloat control, or run it at 25mg ED for pre-contest or for gynecomastia sensitive individuals or moon face. the beauty of aromasin is it's okay to use preventatively and not just as spot treatment for gynecomastia as it doesn't hurt gains nearly to the degree that other Anti-E's do, I'd still recommend using Anti-E's only if you need them, but if you must use one throughout your cycle, you couldn't pick a better compound to use.

#2) PCT. Aromasin is the premier PCT drug in my experience... honestly PCT is kind of fun with aromasin (maybe that's a stretch) but it's a breeze compared to clomid/nolva and significantly better than a-dex (more powerful and fewer sides) it works excellently with HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - and keeps the extra aromatization from the HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - injects at bay (you can even run higher dosages of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - above 500iu/inject) and another bonus is since it's safe and comfortable to run for longer periods of time, you can stretch your PCT out to 6 or 8 weeks for suppressive cycles to make sure you get everything back in full working order

#3) gynecomastia reversal - in conjunction with a selective estrogen receptor modulator (raloxifene or tamoxifen) and/or a dihydrotestosterone derived compound aromasin can be effective in reversing/reducing existing gynecomastia

#4) off cycle testosterone boost - sometimes if I don't feel like running a cycle but still want a little extra kick I'll take 25mg EOD for 4-6 weeks, gains aren't improved all that greatly but significantly, but I do it more for the Libido/mental effects anyways.

#5) hypogonadism - so you're getting older, you've been cycling since you were 21 and your natty test levels just never get back in the good range, but you don't wanna go HRT??? aromasin will get you back in the game without having to take the plunge for HRT.

good stuff!

If i'm reading correctly, though, the bolded section on exemestane for pct seems to imply using it instead of a SERM, rather than in addition to a SERM. I believe this needs some clarification. As I understand it, in the above scenario, you would be relying on HCG to raise test, and then using the exemestane to block the conversion of that higher test to estro. Makes sense, right? But the major, major downside to this, is that HCG works by mimicking the effects of LH, stimulating the LH receptors on the Leydig cells, which in turn produce more testosterone. Unfortunately, this usage of HCG is actually overstimulating the LH receptors, and causes them to desensitize. Then, once you're back to producing your own natural LH, it won't do any good, as your LH receptors won't be listening. This is why if you do use HCG, it is recommended to use before the end of your cycle for a little kick start, and not during PCT, where your goal is to restore natural HTPA function.

So, backing up, you would NOT be able to use any AI, even one as awesome as exemestane, solo in place of a SERM to effectively raise test post-cycle while you are in a suppressed state. True, exemestane can raise test levels in normal, healthy individuals by blocking its conversion to estrogen. I mean, of course, right? If you're blocking the aromatization of test to estro, then the test that would have converted will remain as test, thus higher test. In addition, your body detects that estro levels are too low, and produces even more test with the goal of it aromatizing. But post-cycle, you are suppressed, and you do not have any test to aromatize. What good is blocking aromatization if you don't have any test to convert anyway? You're just wasting your AI then.

Now compare that to the mechanism of a SERM, which actually stimulates your own production of LH to tickle the Leydig cells, rather than doing it via an overkill exogenous source like HCG. Your Leydig cells in turn start secreting test, and as your test level climbs, it starts aromatizing. Luckily, even though you now have high estro, the SERM stops it from causing any damage. Then the best use of an AI is debatable, as I brought up in my earlier post. Do you use the AI to keep the estro in check throughout PCT? Do you just do a little bit of an AI hit at the end to knock estro down once you come off the SERM? Or, since the goal of PCT is to get back to your natural state, do you just let your body do its own thing and dispose of the excess estro after tapering the SERM, which it will, just a bit slower. I don't know!

Deep breath! So yea, this is actually some complex stuff, so please jump in if anything I thought I knew is wrong.

 

[AustBenny]

Hey man,

Because I've pulled this particular section out of a larger article about PCT/SERMs, as such I think the bolded section is a little out of context. I don't think it's meant to imply that no SERM should be used, because there's a whole section where the author emphasises the importance of a SERM in PCT.

I think what the author is saying is in terms of side effects Aromasin is a breeze in PCT compared to say the emotional side effects of clomid or the headaches and blurry vision sometimes associated with Nolva.

So your post makes entire sense but I think is a little redundant due to I think misinterpreting the original post lol. I could go in and edit that section I guess but not sure how I would re-word it.

 

[warpyfunch]

Hey man,

Because I've pulled this particular section out of a larger article about PCT/SERMs, as such I think the bolded section is a little out of context. I don't think it's meant to imply that no SERM should be used, because there's a whole section where the author emphasises the importance of a SERM in PCT.

I think what the author is saying is in terms of side effects Aromasin is a breeze in PCT compared to say the emotional side effects of clomid or the headaches and blurry vision sometimes associated with Nolva.

So your post makes entire sense but I think is a little redundant due to I think misinterpreting the original post lol. I could go in and edit that section I guess but not sure how I would re-word it.

I gotcha, didn't mean to sound like I was talking to you specifically, I know you didn't write it up personally. I just saw that one part and thought it was very misleading. The author wrote that using exemestane for pct is "a breeze compared to clomid/nolva," which really sounds like he's saying to use it instead of them. Even if it's taken out of context from a longer write up, I'm not sure how else to read that line.

 

[AustBenny]

Nah, all good bro. That's not how I took it but I've made a tiny edit to that paragraph in my original post, go back and have a look and see if you think it clarifies things sufficiently.

Cheers

 

[AustBenny]

Lol, actually I went ahead and made a significant bolded note.

 

[Jebrook]

Nice thread yates84

 

[jsav906]

I got a question for everyone. What's your opinion on running a a "PCT" around 2 months after the initial cycle and PCT? I feel like it could maybe help lean you out a little, but no size.But mainly its for health purposes like getting your test to a good level before the next cycle

 

[AustBenny]

I don't see the point of this. I mean, people can/do use Clomid as a TRT substitute but I'm assuming that's not your situation.

You're just messing with your levels unnecessarily. The idea behind PCT and then a normalisation period is to let your body start doing its own thing again.

 

[jsav906]

I wasn't going to try it. It was more of a question that I have never seen answered. But I guess unless you're going to run Clomid long term like a TRT substitute it would be pointless

 

[yates84]

I don't see the point of this. I mean, people can/do use Clomid as a TRT substitute but I'm assuming that's not your situation.

You're just messing with your levels unnecessarily. The idea behind PCT and then a normalisation period is to let your body start doing its own thing again.

This^^

 

[criticalbench]

Props man.. you nailed the Ralox part about being faked with nolva.. so common. Solid bro!

 

[dronkey]

AustBenny do you have deeper info on arimistane? It seems like they put that stuff in all sorts of otc on cycle and pct products, touting it as a suicidal AI.

 

[yates84]

AustBenny do you have deeper info on arimistane? It seems like they put that stuff in all sorts of otc on cycle and pct products, touting it as a suicidal AI.

Its a suicidal ai but not a very good one imo.

 

[warpyfunch]

AustBenny do you have deeper info on arimistane? It seems like they put that stuff in all sorts of otc on cycle and pct products, touting it as a suicidal AI.

Its a suicidal ai but not a very good one imo.

Frankly, I would love to have versions of Arimacare Pro and Super PCT with the exact same formula without any of the OTC AI's included. I like getting all my supports in one product, but for estrogen control I'd like to be able to manage that independently from the rest. Any chance you can pass that up the food chain?

 

[yates84]

Frankly, I would love to have versions of Arimacare Pro and Super PCT with the exact same formula without any of the OTC AI's included. I like getting all my supports in one product, but for estrogen control I'd like to be able to manage that independently from the rest. Any chance you can pass that up the food chain?

That would be my wish as well but it simply won't happen. The masses love armistane so that's what sells. It wouldn't be cost effective at all to make that product that only about 5% of our consumers would purchase. I've gotten to where I just make my own cycle support, it's so much cheaper and you can adjust doses however you want.