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Epicatechin

kisaj said:
Not sure if you are serious, but there has never been more interest in (-)-epi and more products continue to come out with it. You may feel like the jury is still out, but the people that use it will attest to how good it is.
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You pushed back on me as 'not being serious' when I expressed doubt about the impact of EPI products vis a vis the claims for EPI which are based on my personal experience of using an EPI product.

I wonder what you think of OL's claims that their new unleashed product will be 2x-6x times more bioavailable than the 1G epi products?. Not trying to stir just trying to get an objective perspective on what constitutes a 'gold standard' for EPI products.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
2007 Purdue research. Lemon, Orange, Lime, Grapefruit (in that order) increases catechin absorption. Or pop Vitamin C, if you don't like juices, like Danes said.
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Thanks. Yes Now I'm wiser because of posts by members like yourself and Danes

I'm kicking myself for not being aware of the bioavailability issues. Did some basic research but didn't pick this up before I went out and bought an epi product probably getting very little out of it.

And now I know the answer to my question. Yes the sup companies missed a trick!
 
It looks like it may help, but even without Juice/Vit C, the last study showed -(-)Epi still raises blood concentrations for about 3-4hrs (200mg was the max dosage in that one, IIRC). Then there is the fact that most don't want to dose Vit C anywhere around training.

Found it:
 

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The_Old_Guy said:
2007 Purdue research. Lemon, Orange, Lime, Grapefruit (in that order) increases catechin absorption. Or pop Vitamin C, if you don't like juices, like Danes said.
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Thats true.
Thats why I wrote:
"GSE ,C-Vitamin and xylitol are just one of few that can enhance the delivery and bioavailability of catechins.(Effective on intestinal cell transport, implying the inhibition of the efflux transport mechanism)"

so adding aa simple as 500mg ascorbic acid would help a lot. Even better to add GSE too. Together they work even better
 
The_Old_Guy said:
It looks like it may help, but even without Juice/Vit C, the last study showed -(-)Epi still raises blood concentrations for about 3-4hrs (200mg was the max dosage in that one, IIRC). Then there is the fact that most don't want to dose Vit C anywhere around training.

Found it:
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Yes thats true.
But you will get better bioavaiability with such as c vitamin.

Epicatechin can be even more potent for endurance,pumps and generaly better work capacity if taking care of:
Timing (like taking each 4th hour)
BioA. Support like c vitamin as example
 
The_Old_Guy said:
It looks like it may help, but even without Juice/Vit C, the last study showed -(-)Epi still raises blood concentrations for about 3-4hrs (200mg was the max dosage in that one, IIRC). Then there is the fact that most don't want to dose Vit C anywhere around training.

Found it:
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Thanks. I'll look up the research. If what OL are claiming is accurate it looks like they've found something that will more "than help". 2x - 6x bioavailability increase. We're talking off the chart, literally, not marginal increases!
 
The_Old_Guy said:
It looks like it may help, but even without Juice/Vit C, the last study showed -(-)Epi still raises blood concentrations for about 3-4hrs (200mg was the max dosage in that one, IIRC). Then there is the fact that most don't want to dose Vit C anywhere around training.

Found it:
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This is one of the charts that was used when Brundel first released Follidrone and in part why it was recommended to take 30-60 min before workout. It was thought that spacing it out would be more effective, but anecdotal evidence found most users seeing most benefit from taking 200mg+ all at once.
 
ucheoma said:
You pushed back on me as 'not being serious' when I expressed doubt about the impact of EPI products vis a vis the claims for EPI which are based on my personal experience of using an EPI product.

I wonder what you think of OL's claims that their new unleashed product will be 2x-6x times more bioavailable than the 1G epi products?. Not trying to stir just trying to get an objective perspective on what constitutes a 'gold standard' for EPI products.
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I don't know anything about what OL is doing, so I can't comment on it. I do know that just like any product or supplement that is released, companies look to improve on them, so this is nothing different than any other company would do.
 
kisaj said:
This is one of the charts that was used when Brundel first released Follidrone and in part why it was recommended to take 30-60 m7in before workout. It was thought that spacing it out would be more effective, but anecdotal evidence found most users seeing most benefit from taking 200mg+ all at once.
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I will be dosing 200-300mg 4 times (each 4th hour). With GSE and C vitamin
 
Danes said:
I will be dosing 200-300mg 4 times (each 4th hour). With GSE and C vitamin
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Definitely would follow your regime but 4x per day means prices need to come down. Definitely looking forward to new releases and hopefully to price adjustments that should follow.
 
I'd be curious on benefits from continual supplementation throughout the day as opposed to only taking once a day. We know that the primary benefits regarding performance are from an endurance/cardiovascular standpoint and strength and size increases coming secondary and likely due to improvements in endurance and additional output in workouts. I'm not sure how this would translate to additional benefits if taken throughout the day.
 
ucheoma said:
Definitely would follow your regime but 4x per day means prices need to come down. Definitely looking forward to new releases and hopefully to price adjustments that should follow.
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If you want a research project, go here:

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...and look at the first section. 98% from Green Tea (bottom) looks to be the cheapest, but I can't figure out what the quantity is... E4018-1MG 37.90 Is that 1mg? That doesn't seem right. Contact them and report back :)
 
kisaj said:
I'd be curious on benefits from continual supplementation throughout the day as opposed to only taking once a day. We know that the primary benefits regarding performance are from an endurance/cardiovascular standpoint and strength and size increases coming secondary and likely due to improvements in endurance and additional output in workouts. I'm not sure how this would translate to additional benefits if taken throughout the day.
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Personaly, i think it would be much more stable taking thru the day.
I dont believe strength and size would increase due to follistatin elevation. Its other factors that play very important role there.
But increasing N.O would deff help you with endurance,strength and that can lead to more size.
My friend who is 100% natural like me , have taken 1.2g Epicatechin (300mg each 4th hour) with ascorbic acid and GSE.

-much better endurance
-much better work capacity
-heavy pumps/musclefullness

We shall not forget all those health benefits from Epicatechin.
 
Danes said:
I dont believe strength and size would increase due to follistatin elevation. Its other factors that play very important role there.
But increasing N.O would deff help you with endurance,strength and that can lead to more size.
My friend who is 100% natural like me , have taken 1.2g Epicatechin (300mg each 4th hour) with ascorbic acid and GSE.

-much better endurance
-much better work capacity
-heavy pumps/musclefullness

We shall not forget all those health benefits from Epicatechin.
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That is exactly what I am saying. The primary benefits aid in the secondary. You are capable of additional workload, and this in turn is responsible for strength and size increases. It is possible that follistatin elevation is also in play, though.

I said when this first came out that the people that will see the most benefit are experienced and/or are reaching max effort when they are training because they will be able to see the benefit of going past that.
 
kisaj said:
That is exactly what I am saying. The primary benefits aid in the secondary. You are capable of additional workload, and this in turn is responsible for strength and size increases. It is possible that follistatin elevation is also in play, though.

I said when this first came out that the people that will see the most benefit are experienced and/or are reaching max effort when they are training because they will be able to see the benefit of going past that.
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And the best part, its healty!
 
It is. I run labs and saw the benefits on lipid levels both short term <60 days and long term for a 6 month run.
 
I was wondering why I didn't add 100lbs to my deadlift in three days.
 
I know I keep bring it up, but the delivery system I spoke of is...

SEDDS (Self-emulsifying drug delivery system) Distilled water, Potassium sorbate, Sodium benzoate, Sucralose, Citric acid, Citrosodine, Hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, Oleic acid ethyl ester, Medium Chain Triglyceride oil, Polyethoxylated sorbitan, Oleic acid, Palmitic acid, Soy lecithin, Phosphatidycholine, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidyletholamine, Phosphatidylinositol, Sorbitan laurate, Mono & Di glycerides palm oil, Mono and Dipalm oil glycerides, Tocopherol acetate, Natural flavour blend, Grape Extract.

Noticed the Citric acid mentioned. Maybe some one has an idea if this is actually helping bioavalability.
 
Ape McGrapes said:
I was wondering why I didn't add 100lbs to my deadlift in three days.
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Because that's impossible except for perhaps in a beginner who starts out with 0 knowledge and then gets coached on how to properly deadlift.
 
Ape McGrapes said:
I know I keep bring it up, but the delivery system I spoke of is...

SEDDS (Self-emulsifying drug delivery system) Distilled water, Potassium sorbate, Sodium benzoate, Sucralose, Citric acid, Citrosodine, Hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, Oleic acid ethyl ester, Medium Chain Triglyceride oil, Polyethoxylated sorbitan, Oleic acid, Palmitic acid, Soy lecithin, Phosphatidycholine, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidyletholamine, Phosphatidylinositol, Sorbitan laurate, Mono & Di glycerides palm oil, Mono and Dipalm oil glycerides, Tocopherol acetate, Natural flavour blend, Grape Extract.

Noticed the Citric acid mentioned. Maybe some one has an idea if this is actually helping bioavalability.
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Citric acid, socralose and grape extract are the 3 I know from that list which would help with bioavaiability
 
Some good info in here for sure! Not to derail but I know some have wanted to give magnitropin a shot, and right now we have a great sale going on. Check out myokem.com
 
kisaj said:
It is. I run labs and saw the benefits on lipid levels both short term <60 days and long term for a 6 month run.
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It definitely is a great ingredient for overall health. I only hope the price comes down so that it can become a staple rather than a luxury.

The health benefits alone make me want to use it continuously :D
 
Jiigzz said:
You and me both :) looks like a brand revival...
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Yes the TUDCA should be at a retailer very soon for a very nice price;)
 
fightbackhxc said:
Yes the TUDCA should be at a retailer very soon for a very nice price;)
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good price and you actually KNOW you're getting full dosed TUDCA. Not much more a guy could ask for c
 
Danes said:
GSE ,C-Vitamin and xylitol are just one of few that can enhance the delivery and bioavailability of catechins.(Effective on intestinal cell transport, implying the inhibition of the efflux transport mechanism).
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Yes there certainly appears to be evidence suggesting that GSE and xylitol can enhance apical to basolateral absorption of the parent compound (by inhibiting MRP2) however the issue appears to lie with the efficient production of sulphur conjugates in the liver.

Megadose vitamin C can downregulate expression of sulfotransferase genes in Caco-2 cells- which may have small bearing- however the sulfation at this site does not appear as extensive as that at the liver.

There has been contention as to the metabolism of epicatechin between prior and more recent research- however the redeeming feature is the high level sulfur conjugation- which would seem to be the biggest hindrance to high level blood levels and longer half life.
 
furion said:
Yes there certainly appears to be evidence suggesting that GSE and xylitol can enhance apical to basolateral absorption of the parent compound (by inhibiting MRP2) however the issue appears to lie with the efficient production of sulphur conjugates in the liver.

Megadose vitamin C can downregulate expression of sulfotransferase genes in Caco-2 cells- which may have small bearing- however the sulfation at this site does not appear as extensive as that at the liver.

There has been contention as to the metabolism of epicatechin between prior and more recent research- however the redeeming feature is the high level sulfur conjugation- which would seem to be the biggest hindrance to high level blood levels and longer half life.
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No need of megadosing C Vitamin. 500mg to 1g is enough.
 
Instead of making a new thread, I thought I would ask this in here.

I received a product with -Epi in it today. I was getting ready to add AlphaMax to my X-Gels run. Would running Epi after AlphaMax be a bad idea? Typically, I would not run a testbooster for 12 weeks, which would be the length of the two supplements since I am using two bottles of AlphaMax. I'm not educated with Epi, which is why I am asking.
 
Make a new thread. That way is shows up in our search and someone could probably get an easier answer without going through all the pages.
 
AntM1564 said:
Instead of making a new thread, I thought I would ask this in here.

I received a product with -Epi in it today. I was getting ready to add AlphaMax to my X-Gels run. Would running Epi after AlphaMax be a bad idea? Typically, I would not run a testbooster for 12 weeks, which would be the length of the two supplements since I am using two bottles of AlphaMax. I'm not educated with Epi, which is why I am asking.
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Epi can be used with a test booster or after no problem at all.
EPI is perfectly stacked with other supplements too
 
It will be interesting to compare the new "OL - Epic unleashed" and "Vital labs - EPI 2.0", both new type of epicatechin products.
Any thoughts or guesses?
 
Zrob77 said:
It will be interesting to compare the new "OL - Epic unleashed" and "Vital labs - EPI 2.0", both new type of epicatechin products.
Any thoughts or guesses?
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Formula for vital is already out. It's epi plus absorption enhancers. I'm sure Epic unleashed is going down the same path as epi plus absorption enhancers. we can't really compare until the label for epic unleashed gets unleashed (see what I did there). After that I guess time will tell to see if the absorption enhancers increase the effects, by how much, and which one does it better.
 
Zrob77 said:
It will be interesting to compare the new "OL - Epic unleashed" and "Vital labs - EPI 2.0", both new type of epicatechin products.
Any thoughts or guesses?
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Geoforce said:
Formula for vital is already out. It's epi plus absorption enhancers. I'm sure Epic unleashed is going down the same path as epi plus absorption enhancers. we can't really compare until the label for epic unleashed gets unleashed (see what I did there). After that I guess time will tell to see if the absorption enhancers increase the effects, by how much, and which one does it better.
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The inclusion of absorption enhancers is nothing new, this is an approach that several other manufacturers are currently using in their products. Everything will be released soon and any debate will be put to rest, but Ep1c Unleashed is much more than just another ingredient addition. We put in time and effort, as well as R&D investment and real world testing to support our product release and have backed up our claims with results. Ours is a completely different approach.
 
Segansational said:
The inclusion of absorption enhancers is nothing new, this is an approach that several other manufacturers are currently using in their products. Everything will be released soon and any debate will be put to rest, but Ep1c Unleashed is much more than just another ingredient addition. We put in time and effort, as well as R&D investment and real world testing to support our product release and have backed up our claims with results. Ours is a completely different approach.
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I just checked out epi 2.0. Seems to be a lot more than just "absorption enhancers."
 
Segansational said:
The inclusion of absorption enhancers is nothing new, this is an approach that several other manufacturers are currently using in their products. Everything will be released soon and any debate will be put to rest, but Ep1c Unleashed is much more than just another ingredient addition. We put in time and effort, as well as R&D investment and real world testing to support our product release and have backed up our claims with results. Ours is a completely different approach.
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Was not my intention to detract from the product! I was just under the assumption that absorption enhancement would probably be part of the equation. Either way excited to see what you guys have and give it a whirl!
 
Joepower said:
I just checked out epi 2.0. Seems to be a lot more than just "absorption enhancers."
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We talking about the same product? Epi 2.0 is described by vital labs as epi plus absorption enhancers. If it is a lot more than that I must be reading the wrong label. It's write-up specifically talks about the added ingredients being to enhance absorption/get more out of epi (same thing different wording).
 
is no one concerned about all the antioxidants youre ingesting pre workout? acting like 500-1000mg vitamin C plus whatever -epi is beneficial around a workout, or is it more so about the pros vs cons. this certainly isnt conventional wisdom.
 
squirtguns89 said:
is no one concerned about all the antioxidants youre ingesting pre workout? acting like 500-1000mg vitamin C plus whatever -epi is beneficial around a workout, or is it more so about the pros vs cons. this certainly isnt conventional wisdom.
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From the last study it seems like the timing of EPI would be best taking it each 4th hour 4 times as an example.
 
squirtguns89 said:
is no one concerned about all the antioxidants youre ingesting pre workout? acting like 500-1000mg vitamin C plus whatever -epi is beneficial around a workout, or is it more so about the pros vs cons. this certainly isnt conventional wisdom.
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Sorry if this seems a daft question but what are the cons of taking vit c pre workout? I tend to dose my orange triad first thing in the morning preworkout. Should i be timing it differently
 
ucheoma said:
Sorry if this seems a daft question but what are the cons of taking vit c pre workout? I tend to dose my orange triad first thing in the morning preworkout. Should i be timing it differently
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I would like to know this as well. I have heard this a lot but haven't heard anything on why.
 
I think its because many antioxidants like vit c are also antiinflammatories, which is not what you want during a workout.
 
raekwonse said:
I think its because many antioxidants like vit c are also antiinflammatories, which is not what you want during a workout.
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Idk some of the best gains I've made were on prescription anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxers, for shoulder injury.
 
Worrying about taking anti-inflammatory products pre-workout is just batsh*t crazy. I guess if you're deep into the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder and it makes you feel better just like touching the doorknob 4 times before you close it or you'll die than do it.

Sorry but it's just ridiculous.

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