Epicatechin

[squirtguns89]

Sorry if this seems a daft question but what are the cons of taking vit c pre workout? I tend to dose my orange triad first thing in the morning preworkout. Should i be timing it differently

per coop in CC#5:

"Antioxidants have been shown to be excellent for muscle recovery following exercise. Unfortunately, it’s a double-edged sword: many antioxidants reduce the adaptations to weight training, resulting in poorer performance in the long-run. Examples: resveratrol, vitamin C, NAC, the list goes on. They inhibit a process called “hormesis,” which is quite complex and poorly understood. Google it for further information."

Idk some of the best gains I've made were on prescription anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxers, for shoulder injury.

likely because you have inflammation issues in the first place, aka one negative being greater than the other, not because its actually netting an overall positive response. which if that is the case, you might as well take what nets you the best results, as you cant change injury/inflammation issues in that acute setting.

 

[Danes]

I think its because many antioxidants like vit c are also antiinflammatories, which is not what you want during a workout.

Do you really believe C vitamin has so powerfull and so acute anti inflammatory effect?

People are really overthinking

 

[squirtguns89]

Worrying about taking anti-inflammatory products pre-workout is just batsh*t crazy. I guess if you're deep into the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder and it makes you feel better just like touching the doorknob 4 times before you close it or you'll die than do it.

Sorry but it's just ridiculous.

What is OCD?[/url]

so explain to me how xgels is a cool product then? its whole thing is about inducing muscle inflammation, yet the opposite is nothing to worry about? i dont see how it goes both ways.

 

[squirtguns89]

Do you really believe C vitamin has so powerfull and so acute anti inflammatory effect?

People are really overthinking

i think people like coop have thought about it a lot more than anyone in here giving advice i do assume that much. obviously within reasonable dosages its not a big deal. Theres not really a benefit to taking it pre workout though so how that is over thinking it im not sure. maybe people are under thinking it?

 

[Danes]

so explain to me how xgels is a cool product then? its whole thing is about inducing muscle inflammation, yet the opposite is nothing to worry about? i dont see how it goes both ways.

Remember, 1.5g ArA for inflammation cant be compared to even 10g C vitamin for "anti inflammation". 500mg c vitamin prior workout would not be anything to worry about. But I do understand the idea of different ingredients adding prior workout which would reduce inflammation

 

[T-Bone]

so explain to me how xgels is a cool product then? its whole thing is about inducing muscle inflammation, yet the opposite is nothing to worry about? i dont see how it goes both ways.

You can't compare taking something like fish-oil and vitamin c to something as powerful as X-gels. A couple of gel caps of fish oil or a tab or two of vitamin c pre workout isn't going to completely destroy your gains or counter the positive benefits of your workout. However, I still wouldn't recommend taking anti-inflammatory products with X-gels. That's not the point though. I think your missing my point.

 

[Danes]

i think people like coop have thought about it a lot more than anyone in here giving advice i do assume that much. obviously within reasonable dosages its not a big deal. Theres not really a benefit to taking it pre workout though so how that is over thinking it im not sure. maybe people are under thinking it?

Most of people are taking multis early in the day and if there is 200mg c vitamin in a PWO, there is no need to make any drama TBH. Are you Coopers little bich or ?

 

[T-Bone]

Remember, 1.5g ArA for inflammation cant be compared to even 10g C vitamin for "anti inflammation". 500mg c vitamin prior workout would not be anything to worry about. But I do understand the idea of different ingredients adding prior workout which would reduce inflammation

Exactly. This.

 

[T-Bone]

Also, there is no shame in admitting you have OCD.

 

[squirtguns89]

You can't compare taking something like fish-oil and vitamin c to something as powerful as X-gels. A couple of gel caps of fish oil or a tab or two of vitamin c pre workout isn't going to completely destroy your gains or counter the positive benefits of your workout. However, I still wouldn't recommend taking anti-inflammatory products with X-gels. That's not the point though. I think your missing my point.

youre saying typical anti-inflammatory's dont illicit a big response, you just dont recommend taking them with your product...because thats not ocd, thats just common sense.

where as avoiding something that isnt positive pre workout is just ocd. always good to exaggerate the remark youre responding to in order to prove your point as well, i never implied it would destroy your gains, i said its not beneficial. its called using common sense, not ocd, in an industry like this, it goes a long way.

 

[Misfit28]

I've been looking at the literature, still searching. I found something about endurance athletes and 1g of Vitamin C + Vitamin E reducing adaptations to endurance training. Anyone know of studies on trained lifters? Just curious, I'm always willing to learn more

 

[squirtguns89]

Most of people are taking multis early in the day and if there is 200mg c vitamin in a PWO, there is no need to make any drama TBH. Are you Coopers little bich or ?

i never said avoid vitamin C at all cost. yes there is small/ negligible you might say amount of vitamin c in pre workouts, and why is that? is that because its beneficial or because its reducing carcinogenic risks? lol context bud. yeah i respect someone who actually has a background and knowledge that would qualify him to give advice vs some random joe whos best advice is not to over think it.

i dont think taking a multi/or vitamin c will kill your gians, i guess i need to make that abundantly clear for you folks. but given that theres no advantage to taking it pre workout in general and arguably has negatives at certain higher dosings, i dont see why you would just because you like taking it in the morning/

 

[Jiigzz]

Worrying about taking anti-inflammatory products pre-workout is just batsh*t crazy. I guess if you're deep into the throws of obsessive compulsive disorder and it makes you feel better just like touching the doorknob 4 times before you close it or you'll die than do it.

Sorry but it's just ridiculous.

Invalid Link Removed

Vit C can blunt the hypertropic response rather significantly. In small doses its fine, but gram doses should be avoided if you can help it.

You can google Vitamin C and Training adaptations to have a look at what is out there

 

[Danes]

i never said avoid vitamin C at all cost. yes there is small/ negligible you might say amount of vitamin c in pre workouts, and why is that? is that because its beneficial or because its reducing carcinogenic risks? lol context bud. yeah i respect someone who actually has a background and knowledge that would qualify him to give advice vs some random joe whos best advice is not to over think it.

i dont think taking a multi/or vitamin c will kill your gians, i guess i need to make that abundantly clear for you folks. but given that theres no advantage to taking it pre workout in general and arguably has negatives at certain higher dosings, i dont see why you would just because you like taking it in the morning/

Dont misunderstand me, i totaly do understand your point and I know how important inflammation is for musclegrowth (thinking about pro inflammatory such as prostaglandinds etc) BUT there is a huge difference between a high dose of inflammation ingredients, NSAID medication and/ or other compounds prior workout and lets say 200mg c vitamin with a nitrates(preventing nitrate tolerance as an example.such as 250mg C vitamin in PES High Volume) or 200-500mg c vitamin/ascorbic acid in a product (enhancing the bioavailability or absorption of the ingredient/ingredients).

You see what I mean?

 

[squirtguns89]

Dont misunderstand me, i totaly do understand your point and I know how important inflammation is for musclegrowth (thinking about pro inflammatory such as prostaglandinds etc) BUT there is a huge difference between a high dose of inflammation ingredients, NSAID medication and/ or other compounds prior workout and lets say 200mg c vitamin with a nitrates(preventing nitrate tolerance.such as 250mg C vitamin in PES High Volume) or 200-500mg c vitamin/ascorbic acid in a product (enhancing the bioavailability or absorption of the ingredient/ingredients).

You see what I mean?

dare i say your tune changed once the jiigzz ended your little idea of how nonsensical i was being? never the less, no worries all just a friendly debate aside from some comments . again, i never said small amounts of some of these things are anything to worry about, ive agreed with that the entire time. you dont take vitamin c w/nitrates to prevent tolerance, you take it to prevent carcinogenic properties. arginine hypothetically curtails nitrate tolerance.

and never the less, theres a difference between 250mg and what was actually being discussed itt in which my comment was pertaining to so perhaps we just got mixed up. i do think there is merit in avoiding 500mg- 2x that such as been discussed pre workout.

and going back to my original point, my original comment that lead to all this,i was just saying at what point does the pros not outweigh the cons (when stacking multi antioxidants pre workout)? apparently we dont have that answer, and ill go back to my general grounding and minimizing HIGH doses pre workout at least. perhaps theres merit to your spread out 4 hours apart with higher doses vit c, then for the pre dose just use a smaller dose vit c that time, best of both worlds.

 

[Danes]

dare i say your tune changed once the jiigzz ended your little idea of how nonsensical i was being? never the less, no worries all just a friendly debate aside from some comments . again, i never said small amounts of some of these things are anything to worry about, ive agreed with that the entire time. you dont take vitamin c w/nitrates to prevent tolerance, you take it to prevent carcinogenic properties. arginine hypothetically curtails nitrate tolerance.

and never the less, theres a difference between 250mg and what was actually being discussed itt in which my comment was pertaining to so perhaps we just got mixed up. i do think there is merit in avoiding 500mg- 2x that such as been discussed pre workout.

and going back to my original point, my original comment that lead to all this,i was just saying at what point does the pros not outweigh the cons (when stacking multi antioxidants pre workout)? apparently we dont have that answer, and ill go back to my general grounding and minimizing HIGH doses pre workout at least. perhaps theres merit to your spread out 4 hours apart with higher doses vit c, then for the pre dose just use a smaller dose vit c that time, best of both worlds.

What?
Not at all.
My tune did not changed at all. Thats exactly what I meant whole time.

And regarding to C vitamin and nitrate tolerance I think you need to read little bit more. There is many studies c vit preventing nitrate tolerance but you dont need to take it WITH nitrates ofcourse.
Preventing Nitrate tolerance with C vitamin is just one of great things what C vitamin can do. And I do understand why its added in PWO because to make sure they get at least that c vitamin dose which is found in PWO

Lile i saif before:
"Most of people are taking multis early in the day and if there is 200mg c vitamin in a PWO, there is no need to make any drama TBH.*"

 

[furion]

Although it is interesting, as Jiggz eluded, the relevance of that study on vitamin C (Gomez-Cabrera, et al) can't really be translated to regularly resistant trained men.
Hormesis (especially pertaining to ROS in skeletal muscle) is not exactly a finite science- it is very idiosyncratic with many innate and externally influenced variables. For instance, using the referenced study- and measured parameters of skeletal muscle adaptations: (PGC-1, ect)- expression of these proteins alone can be manipulated by genetics, body composition, glycemic control, nutritional status and numerous other factors as well as exercise adaptations. So although it is interesting to observe the effects of vitamin C on these adaptations- for resistant trained population it very difficult to standardise a measurement of detrimental 'antioxidation' let alone a dose of one particular antioxidant. That being said, considering best available evidence, I would be hesitant in recommending supplemental vitamin C alongside a cycle of X-gels without a warranted requirement.
Going back to the original mention of vitamin C in this thread- from a macro-perspective, considering the findings of this study, combining it with (-)-epicatechin may actually have detrimental effects on a potential MOA- which I won't go into now until the CEL product is released.

 

[ucheoma]

per coop in CC#5:

"Antioxidants have been shown to be excellent for muscle recovery following exercise. Unfortunately, it’s a double-edged sword: many antioxidants reduce the adaptations to weight training, resulting in poorer performance in the long-run. Examples: resveratrol, vitamin C, NAC, the list goes on. They inhibit a process called “hormesis,” which is quite complex and poorly understood. Google it for further information."

.

Your quote from COOP says antioxidants (a huge church) reduces poorer performance in the 'long-run' . This quote (and Jiggz's post) say nothing about relevance of timing when taking antioxidants. This relates to your point about avoiding Vit C pre-work out. What I get from this is that it reduces poorer performance in the long run period - doesn[t matter about whether it's pre or post work out. Am I missing something? Also what does long run mean. 1yr, 5yrs, 10 yrs?

 

[squirtguns89]

Your quote from COOP says antioxidants (a huge church) reduces poorer performance in the 'long-run' . This quote (and Jiggz's post) say nothing about relevance of timing when taking antioxidants. This relates to your point about avoiding Vit C pre-work out. What I get from this is that it reduces poorer performance in the long run period - doesn[t matter about whether it's pre or post work out. Am I missing something? Also what does long run mean. 1yr, 5yrs, 10 yrs?

coops quote says it RESULTS in poorer performance in the long run, i think you just had a typo but making sure thats clear. what long run means doesnt need to be taken so specifically, its just that if you constantly blunt exercise response by taking vit C peri workout than you wont be getting maximal benefits from your workouts, over time period, that adds up, not so much that you will shrivel up like a prune over night. not something to over think, personally im not going to go out of my way to dose vit C peri workout, BUT at the doses you take under 500mg, dont lose sleep over it as higher dosing over 500mg was what i was referring to in conjunction with other antioxidants.

 

[Danes]

BUT at the doses you take under 500mg, dont lose sleep over it as higher dosing over 500mg was what i was referring to in conjunction with other antioxidants.

Agree

 

[ucheoma]

coops quote says it RESULTS in poorer performance in the long run, i think you just had a typo but making sure thats clear. what long run means doesnt need to be taken so specifically, its just that if you constantly blunt exercise response by taking vit C peri workout than you wont be getting maximal benefits from your workouts, over time period, that adds up, not so much that you will shrivel up like a prune over night. not something to over think, personally im not going to go out of my way to dose vit C peri workout, BUT at the doses you take under 500mg, dont lose sleep over it as higher dosing over 500mg was what i was referring to in conjunction with other antioxidants.

The extract from coops post says nothing specific on significance of timing ie avoid pre workout as per your post, which is the main point I was raising. However I think following various caveats, qualifiers and explanations made in various posts above we can move on as your original assertion has now been framed in a wider context

 

[Jiigzz]

Vit C can blunt the hypertropic response rather significantly. In small doses its fine, but gram doses should be avoided if you can help it.

You can google Vitamin C and Training adaptations to have a look at what is out there

I should add FTR that I agree with T Bone in his rationale that these little things become obsessive to some- timing everything to the minute and so on. I feel this is what he was getting at. But I also happen to know that people who supplement with Vitc tend to do it by the gram which may potentially be problematic in the long run.

A lot of Pre workouts contain vit c and yet we still grow, so it is obviously not entirely detrimental. The dose makes the poison.

When im on my phone I tend to come across far more direct than I intend because typing takes so long

 

[squirtguns89]

Agree

yes i think thats key for people to extrapolate from this. DO NOT FEAR SMALL AMOUNTS OF VITAMIN C, that not what I was referencing when quoting coop or making my original statement. i think people were missing the original point i made about HIGH DOSES. just trying to kill any confusion danes not yelling at you lol.

i still would like to hear peoples thoughts on pros vs cons on combining antioxidants peri workout to increase absorption. ideally, we want all positive interactions but i could understand if the benefits outweighed possible negatives...if thats the case.

 

[Danes]

I should add FTR that I agree with T Bone in his rationale that these little things become obsessive to some- timing everything to the minute and so on. I feel this is what he was getting at. But I also happen to know that people who supplement with Vitc tend to do it by the gram which may potentially be problematic in the long run.

A lot of Pre workouts contain vit c and yet we still grow, so it is obviously not entirely detrimental. The dose makes the poison.

When im on my phone I tend to come across far more direct than I intend because typing takes so long

I see no point adding mega C vit doses pre workout or any a-inflammation ingredients at all but if a small dose help with absorption/bioavailability, preventing x,y or z then it is more beneficial than harm

 

[Danes]

If the goal is more strength and size, People should focus more on diet and workout routine than on some small doses of antioxidants

 

[squirtguns89]

The extract from coops post says nothing specific on significance of timing ie avoid pre workout as per your post, which is the main point I was raising. However I think following various caveats, qualifiers and explanations made in various posts above we can move on as your original assertion has now been framed in a wider context

i mean yeah he didnt lay it out specifically. but its regarding exercise and through other posts ive read, ive interpreted that as around workout timing. search it up for yourself and come to your own conclusions. or just dont take mega doses of C peri workout and dont bother worrying about it. i mean you dont need more than 500mg at a time in the first place so its really moot point. although i really dont see the point in supplementing things pre workout that dont benefit your workout (unless in certain circumstances), im sure thats over thinking it according to da bros though.

 

[Danes]

yes i think thats key for people to extrapolate from this. DO NOT FEAR SMALL AMOUNTS OF VITAMIN C, that not what I was referencing when quoting coop or making my original statement. i think people were missing the original point i made about HIGH DOSES. just trying to kill any confusion danes not yelling at you lol.

i still would like to hear peoples thoughts on pros vs cons on combining antioxidants peri workout to increase absorption. ideally, we want all positive interactions but i could understand if the benefits outweighed possible negatives...if thats the case.

Its all good bro
I understand your point and you understand mine so we do agree
Apologise my bad english btw

 

[Geoforce]

Coop works with PES which sells a product that you take pre-workout and has Vitamin C. I think that can end a lot of the "but COOP said" debates

And the product I'm talking about by PES kicks ass.

 

[Danes]

Coop works with PES which sells a product that you take pre-workout and has Vitamin C. I think that can end a lot of the "but COOP said" debates

And the product I'm talking about by PES kicks ass.

Yes, I mentioned High Volume in this thread earlier (containing 250mg c-vitamin) and thats due nitrates.
Small dose of C vitamin will have good benefits with nitrates in high volume. And small doses of C vitamin used in a product for enhancing the bioavailability or absorption of a ingredient would not hurt gains either


"BUT there is a huge difference between a high dose of inflammation ingredients, NSAID medication and/ or other compounds prior workout and lets say 200mg c vitamin with a nitrates(preventing nitrate tolerance as an example.such as 250mg C vitamin in PES High Volume) or 200-500mg c vitamin/ascorbic acid in a product (enhancing the bioavailability or absorption of the ingredient/ingredients)."

 

[Geoforce]

I did not see that. I just thought it was funny if we were going down the "COOP SAID VITAMIN C IS BAD!" route.

Far as I can tell no one is talking about mega-dosing things in here.

 

[squirtguns89]

I did not see that. I just thought it was funny if we were going down the "COOP SAID VITAMIN C IS BAD!" route.

Far as I can tell no one is talking about mega-dosing things in here.

Perhaps you should avoid selective reading if you want to partake in a conversation? or better yet, at least if youre going to attempt to mock someone. read my first post, and multiple posts clarifying the context, the context i actually outlined specifically in my original comment FUNNILY enough.

and then, before clarifying what people are talking about (as far as megadosing), id suggest reading (i know its hard) the previous page or 2. If you dont think 500-1000mg vit c+ other antioxidants is potentially getting to mega/or none ideal dosing than feel free to share your surely educated opinion.

 

[Danes]

I did not see that. I just thought it was funny if we were going down the "COOP SAID VITAMIN C IS BAD!" route.

Far as I can tell no one is talking about mega-dosing things in here.

Agree

 

[Geoforce]

Perhaps you should avoid selective reading if you want to partake in a conversation? or better yet, at least if youre going to attempt to mock someone. read my first post, and multiple posts clarifying the context, the context i actually outlined specifically in my original comment FUNNILY enough.

and then, before clarifying what people are talking about (as far as megadosing), id suggest reading (i know its hard) the previous page or 2. If you dont think 500-1000mg vit c+ other antioxidants is potentially getting to mega/or none ideal dosing than feel free to share your surely educated opinion.

Think we might be taking this whole thing a bit too seriously....high stress is even worse than Vitamin C pre-workout!

It was just a joke. You posted what Coop said about it when the company Coop works for has Vitamin C in their pre-workout.

Really nothing worth getting worked up about.