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Another reason to buy from reliable sources! Bad Supps!

De__eB said:
So then you agree with me that regardless of price, there is an abundance of ****ty products on the market, and that there is no correlation between price and quality in the supplement industry?
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Crappy either expensive or cheap, there is both.

There is a correlation between price and quality to an extent. Some companies who spend the money to get raws that match their labels and get COA's/3rd party tests to show it may not be able to sell their product at a cheaper price compared to some other companies. Amount of units they sell will be a major factor as well

a company that sells 10,000's of tubs of protein powder may be able to sell at a cheaper price or put specials up compared to those who may only sell 100-1,000 or so tubs.

Look at some of the big companies out there like ON for example who has dominated international sales, Some of their products are cost effective (protein is pretty adequate for the cost of raws on the market), some are pretty expensive for what you get (Amino Energy) low dose aminos and caffeine.

you can take this both ways, some companies try to sell their product dirt cheap and offer a bad product because its either spiked or very low dosed in some regards. Some may have to sell their product for a bit more depending on what ingredients/raw's they use, and what the net cost will be to sell and still make a profit given MAP pricing or what it is sold at from a different retailer standpoint.
 
Lol...so yet again you're agreeing with me that it works both ways, while simultaneously saying that's not how it works and there is a correlation between price and quality?

Have you heard of GNC?
Have you seen their house brand prices?
Have you seen their house brand formulations?

--

Have you seen all the recent vanity brands by everyone from IFBB pros to youtube celebrities?
Have you seen their prices?
Have you seen their formulations?

--

The overwhelming majority of products in either of those categories are complete garbage.

But they'll continue to be priced above norm, and continue to be profitable because they're either selling direct at 800% of cost or wholesaling at 400% of cost.

--

Pick a category and a price. Bet I can name at least 2 ****ty products in that price tier for every single good one you can find.
 
De__eB said:
Lol...so yet again you're agreeing with me that it works both ways, while simultaneously saying that's not how it works and there is a correlation between price and quality?

Have you heard of GNC?
Have you seen their house brand prices?
Have you seen their house brand formulations?

--

Have you seen all the recent vanity brands by everyone from IFBB pros to youtube celebrities?
Have you seen their prices?
Have you seen their formulations?

--

The overwhelming majority of products in either of those categories are complete garbage.

But they'll continue to be priced above norm, and continue to be profitable because they're either selling direct at 800% of cost or wholesaling at 400% of cost.

--

Pick a category and a price. Bet I can name at least 2 ****ty products in that price tier for every single good one you can find.
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So true
 
The Solution said:
As there are an abundance of Crappy products that are sold at a "Very Cheap" Cost. Hence why they sell because they are using low grade raws or spiking their products.
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But what's to stop a company from using the same low grade raws and/or spiking their products AND selling them at a normal or high price? I'd say that this is pretty common, or, at the least, not very rare in the industry.

Obviously, acquiring quality raws, having 3rd party COAs, good customer service, and all those sort of things cost money, meaning that a company who does this likely won't be selling the cheapest product on the market, but that really just speaks to the quality and integrity of the company, which I will argue is independent of the price point of said supplements. There are companies with quality raws, COAs, excellent customer service, and effective blends that are priced lower than some other companies that have none of the above qualities.
 
meanwhile the chinese are laughing all the way to the bank.....:chinese:
 
muscleupcrohn said:
But what's to stop a company from using the same low grade raws and/or spiking their products AND selling them at a normal or high price? I'd say that this is pretty common, or, at the least, not very rare in the industry.

Obviously, acquiring quality raws, having 3rd party COAs, good customer service, and all those sort of things cost money, meaning that a company who does this likely won't be selling the cheapest product on the market, but that really just speaks to the quality and integrity of the company, which I will argue is independent of the price point of said supplements. There are companies with quality raws, COAs, excellent customer service, and effective blends that are priced lower than some other companies that have none of the above qualities.
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1. There are expencive supplements containing quality and unquality raws.
Many time people say "if you want to know if something is good,just look at the price".
Somehow its true,and sometimes its not true.
People can be fooled of the price . Example.
My friend who own store for clotches he sold dirt cheap jeans. Nobody bought because the low price was sign of low quality. He took them away and 4 months later he sold then again with muuuuch higher price. You know what? He sold all of them pretty fast.
I know this has nothing to do with supps but price can fool people.

Difficult to explain with bad english but my point is, there is good products which are pretty cheap and it can be 100% good quality, while same ingredient and same quality but sold by another company takes 2x the price. I bet many think the company who sell it for the higher price is better quality..

It seems like Brands who dont spend a lot of money on marketing has cheaper products but it seems logical.


Solution: test all products so we dont need to wonder whats good and whats crap.
 
Danes said:
1. There are expencive supplements containing quality and unquality raws.
Many time people say "if you want to know if something is good,just look at the price".
Somehow its true,and sometimes its not true.
People can be fooled of the price . Example.
My friend who own store for clotches he sold dirt cheap jeans. Nobody bought because the low price was sign of low quality. He took them away and 4 months later he sold then again with muuuuch higher price. You know what? He sold all of them pretty fast.
I know this has nothing to do with supps but price can fool people.

Difficult to explain with bad english but my point is, there is good products which are pretty cheap and it can be 100% good quality, while same ingredient and same quality but sold by another company takes 2x the price. I bet many think the company who sell it for the higher price is better quality..

It seems like Brands who dont spend a lot of money on marketing has cheaper products but it seems logical.
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I know exactly what you're saying. Not only that, but:
In a series of experiments, Shiv, Carmon, and Ariely (2005) show that the price consumers pay for a beverage not only affects the perceived benefit from the product but also extends to actual performance on puzzle-solving tasks
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It's fairly well documented that expensive placebos are more effective than cheap placebos, so the same thing would likely apply to supplements.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I know exactly what you're saying. Not only that, but:

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It's fairly well documented that expensive placebos are more effective than cheap placebos, so the same thing would likely apply to supplements.
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Ooy yes. Totaly agree
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I know exactly what you're saying. Not only that, but:

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It's fairly well documented that expensive placebos are more effective than cheap placebos, so the same thing would likely apply to supplements.
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If you buy cheap chinese tools and sell it very expencive. Ofcourse there will be some guys saying "meh. I am not buying those unknown brands" while some would be curious and buy. If it gets broken after 2 weeks, ofcourse you will think "ah fakk this chinese **** i will never buy again". You will allways get your money back and you will not buy that brand anymore.
But with supps its different
Lets take example like EAS ecdysterone.
It was not cheap at all and actually expencive . And the funny thing ICPS in uzbekistan labtested it and there was no TRACE of ecdy in the product.
Some of users got ok results due to changed diet and PLACEBO while other felt nothing (ofcourse u dont get gains of rice flour) .
But still EAS said those who did not get results was non responders.
This is what happens nowadays to.
Brands selling supps without the ingredient on the label or very underdosed. When customers comes with their fair opinion then companies do have answer and its "you are not responder. Just look at this and this log. It worked wonders for them".

I mean, when you pay 40-50$ for one bottle of lets say natty test booster, it should at LEAST contain the ingredients as labeled . Thats what we pay for!!
 
One of the most trusted brands on here sold me a product that did not contain what was on the label.
 
Ape McGrapes said:
One of the most trusted brands on here sold me a product that did not contain what was on the label.
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You could say that for a lot of Brands

MGN protein = Dirt cheap and dont fit label claims (get what you pay for which is very low cost)
then the other end of the spectrum you can get a company like Metabolic Nutrition which is sky high in price and is good tasting but too damn expensive.

Some BCAA companies fall short of leucine on their label by 1-1.5g of LEUCINE per serving (not stating any names) and it is dirt cheap
Myself i would pay the extra few bucks to get something like an Amino IV, Purple Wraath, Core ABC etc

Pre-workout wise, some companies pixie dust things in prop blends and sell them dirt cheap, for example Amino Energy with like 2g of BCAA's and 50mg Caffeine which is nothing in both regards. I would rather again buy one of the above and then add a caffeine tab and make it cheaper and get more bang for my buck.
 
The Solution said:
You could say that for a lot of Brands

MGN protein = Dirt cheap and dont fit label claims (get what you pay for which is very low cost)
then the other end of the spectrum you can get a company like Metabolic Nutrition which is sky high in price and is good tasting but too damn expensive.

Some BCAA companies fall short of leucine on their label by 1-1.5g of LEUCINE per serving (not stating any names) and it is dirt cheap
Myself i would pay the extra few bucks to get something like an Amino IV, Purple Wraath, Core ABC etc

Pre-workout wise, some companies pixie dust things in prop blends and sell them dirt cheap, for example Amino Energy with like 2g of BCAA's and 50mg Caffeine which is nothing in both regards. I would rather again buy one of the above and then add a caffeine tab and make it cheaper and get more bang for my buck.
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I understand what you're saying, but I can point out a plethora of supplements that are priced similarly to Amino IV that I wouldn't necessarily trust, and have pixie-dusted proprietary blends.

You get what you pay for simply doesn't tell the whole story; you're only pointing out poorly-formulated, potentially mislabeled supplements that are inexpensive, and ignoring that there are actually numerous companies that sell the same quality of supplement at a much higher price.

Hell, I only need to take a cursory glance at my Facebook feed to see a plethora of examples of this; every week it seems that there's this new company I've never heard of (that'll probably vanish the next week) selling an insanely over-priced supplement that, at best, contains a pixie-dusting of every ingredient known to man, and, at worst, doesn't even show the supplement facts on the website where people actually buy it. Additionally, these companies have very poor, if any, customer service, and will even screw customers over when they decide to try the supplement out by hiding automatic re-orders in the fine print. Not quite as bad, but still present, are the other supplements I see on Facebook that, while apparently from established companies with existent customer service, are vey dosed and astronomically priced for what you get.

So, answer me this: If a company is willing to charge an astronomical price for an obviously under-dosed, completely ineffective supplement, and trick customers into automatic renewal of said supplement, what makes you think that their supplements are more likely to have what's on the label than a cheap supplement, and does this not show that you don't always get what you pay for, considering that there are much more effective supplements from much more reputable, honest companies for much better prices?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I understand what you're saying, but I can point out a plethora of supplements that are priced similarly to Amino IV that I wouldn't necessarily trust, and have pixie-dusted proprietary blends.

You get what you pay for simply doesn't tell the whole story; you're only pointing out poorly-formulated, potentially mislabeled supplements that are inexpensive, and ignoring that there are actually numerous companies that sell the same quality of supplement at a much higher price.
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I could write a book on supplements that are dirt cheap and do not meet label claims
and i could write a book on supps that are expensive and not worth it compared to others on the market that are 3rd party tested and meeet label claims

like i have said multiple times there are both ends of the spectrum.
The key thing is , cheaper is not always better, some people think so, and some people think just because it tastes good its worth the pick up. There is more to the story in the supplement industry. if i were to pay a bit more for something that is 3rd party tested, has a decent formula/profile i will instead of buying something dirt cheap that does not meet label claims or is pixie dusted.
 
The Solution said:
I could write a book on supplements that are dirt cheap and do not meet label claims
and i could write a book on supps that are expensive and not worth it compared to others on the market that are 3rd party tested and meeet label claims

like i have said multiple times there are both ends of the spectrum.
The key thing is , cheaper is not always better, some people think so, and some people think just because it tastes good its worth the pick up. There is more to the story in the supplement industry. if i were to pay a bit more for something that is 3rd party tested, has a decent formula/profile i will instead of buying something dirt cheap that does not meet label claims or is pixie dusted.
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Again, I understand what you are saying, but, while cheaper isn't always better, neither is expensive. While it does cost more money to have 3rd party testing, I still stand by my statement that the relationship between the price and quality of a supplement is far from linear. The belief that "you get what you pay for" is, in my opinion, fallacious.

My point that you don't seem to have addressed is that, in addition to companies that sell supplements that are dirt cheap and do not meet label claims, it is logical to assume that there are also unscrupulous companies that sell supplements that do not meet label claims and are NOT dirt cheap. I completely understand wanting to pay a bit more for something that is 3rd party tested from a reputable company, but simply because a supplement is expensive does not mean that it is 3rd party tested, or even any better quality than a cheaper supplement as I'm sure you know.

I respect your opinion, and you've regularly give great advice, but I feel that if someone who is not very knowledgeable regarding supplements were to see you saying "you get what you pay for. Period," perhaps they would see that as a reason to overpay for a supplement due to the misguided belief that price is necessarily an indicator of quality, and that a $40 tub of creatine is inherently better than a $20 tub simply because it costs twice as much. From your other posts, I think it would be fair to say that you agree that a better statement would be that it's better to pay a little bit more to buy from a reputable company with 3rd party testing. Perhaps I am arguing over semantics here, so I apologize for that.
 
This was a mix up of betaine HCL instead of Betaine Anhydrous.

I won't say anymore, because I'm not here to slander companies.
 
Ape McGrapes said:
This was a mix up of betaine HCL instead of Betaine Anhydrous.

I won't say anymore, because I'm not here to slander companies.
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Forgot about that... a simple $200 test would have caught that. No need to fly all over the world checking manufacturers
 
The Solution said:
The key thing is , cheaper is not always better, some people think so, and some people think just because it tastes good its worth the pick up.
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Expensive isn't always better either, so you can't say, "You get what you pay for, period." Sometimes with cheap products you don't get what you pay for because it's under-dosed or what is on the label is not in the product. The same thing goes for expensive products. So in both these instances the phrase, "You get what you pay for, period." is just wrong.
 
Just saw this on another board....
someone stated this product does not meet label claims for protein content, not sure how much validity is behind the test

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Uh oh.. My protein product. I liked their line too..
 
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