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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

Think about it, when can you shuttle phospholipids into cell membranes, and skeletal muscle most effectively?

(Hint: Consider the maximizing arachidonic acid absorption thread)

When exercising!

This has nothing to do with whether its effects are intra/extracellular, and everything to do with the fact that you want this supplement to be going into skeletal muscle cell membranes, and not <anywhere else>.



I would take one large dose, pre-workout, with ArA, because synergy.

Can you give a reason why soy PA performed better than egg PA by a huge margin and also performed similarly to PS and LPA in the Tampa study's cell culture data?

I am now fully confused :D

The ERK independent PA data was using egg PA. Tampa study points out that egg PA and soy PA acts differently, egg PA's structure supposedly signals storage whes soy PA supposedly is doesn't.
 
Can you give a reason why soy PA performed better than egg PA by a huge margin and also performed similarly to PS and LPA in the Tampa study's cell culture data?

I am now fully confused :D

Composition of the fatty acids bound to C1 and C2 on the glycerol backbone affects bodily absorption of phospholipids

Egg-Phospholipids feature primarily Palmitic Acid and Stearic acid at C1, and Vaccinic and Linoleic acid at C2.

Soy-Phospholipids feature some some Palmitic Acid, but primarily Linoleic and Linoelaidic acid at C1, mostly Vaccinic and Linoleic at C2, but also a significant amount of a-linoleic acid at C2.


--

The reason they performed similarly is because they are all inverconvertible as part of the phospholipid signalling cascade.

LPA -> PA via LPAAT (Addition of an Acetyl group to LPA) -> signalling/binding actions -> Removal of said acetyl group via PLA

DAG -> PA va DAGK (Addition of phosphate group, typically from metabolism of ATP) -> Back to DAG via LPP (Lipid Phospate Phosphohydrolyase...separation of that phosphate group)

Membrane Phospho<anything> -> PA via various subforms of Phospholipase -> back into cell membranes

They're all getting converted back and forth, stored in cell membranes, and re-used for signalling over and over again, on relatively short timeframes
 
Dookie, has Wilson or Stout actually come right out and said explicitly that, based on this more recent 'sedentary study', dosing PA on off days would likely be of little benefit to resistance trainees? (just putting aside de_eb's contention for the moment)
 
Also, you're missing the entire point.

The fact that you should be taking it pre-workout has nothing to do with whether its effects are intra/extracellular and everything to do with at what point in time you can most effectively deliver phospholipids to skeletal muscle.

Ok, so reading back through your posts...Wilson and Stout have said elsewhere that dosing PA away from training time (off day included) would be beneficial for protein synthesis. Are you saying "meh, perhaps, but such times would be so insignificant it would hardly be worth it"? That we should literally be treating the dosing of PA the same as ArA? And that the 'multiple pathways' of PA does not change this?
 
Ok, so reading back through your posts...Wilson and Stout have said elsewhere that dosing PA away from training time (off day included) would be beneficial for protein synthesis. Are you saying "meh, perhaps, but such times would be so insignificant it would hardly be worth it"? That we should literally be treating the dosing of PA the same as ArA? And that the 'multiple pathways' of PA does not change this?

I really think it'd be a diminishing returns sort of situation. Taken away from exercise stimulus, there is going to be no selective delivery of it to skeletal muscle.

Like, some people take ARA every day and find that it helps them, but, a lot of people find it more cost-effective to only take it on training days.

That said, Lecithin is cheap as hell. You might as well take it every day, but you should *definitely* be taking it preworkout, make sense?
 
I really think it'd be a diminishing returns sort of situation. Taken away from exercise stimulus, there is going to be no selective delivery of it to skeletal muscle.

Like, some people take ARA every day and find that it helps them, but, a lot of people find it more cost-effective to only take it on training days.

That said, Lecithin is cheap as hell. You might as well take it every day, but you should *definitely* be taking it preworkout, make sense?

From a pragmatic point of view that makes complete sense.

But what about in a more strict scientific sense where we want to know if something is not just possible but actually probable. Given your understanding of the relevant lipids and whatnot, is it probable that outside of the training environment PA will in some capacity stimulate (or play a role in stimulating) protein synthesis? What I mean is, is this a fact that might appear in a textbook, for example?
 
From a pragmatic point of view that makes complete sense.

But what about in a more strict scientific sense where we want to know if something is not just possible but actually probable. Given your understanding of the relevant lipids and whatnot, is it probable that outside of the training environment PA will in some capacity stimulate (or play a role in stimulating) protein synthesis? What I mean is, is this a fact that might appear in a textbook, for example?

I don't really think it's going to directly increase MPS outside of exercise, were it to be have an effect I would imagine it would just be to increase accumulation by some amount for later use in response to mechanical stimulus.
 
I don't really think it's going to directly increase MPS outside of exercise, were it to be have an effect I would imagine it would just be to increase accumulation by some amount for later use in response to mechanical stimulus.

Thats great thanks man. Whats your background with all this anyway?
 
Thats great thanks man. Whats your background with all this anyway?

Spent a LOT of time reading about phospholipids thinking of things that would work well with ArA. Discussions about uses of lecithin have been going on for quite a while, I think a lot of companies don't want to run it through because everyone knows it's cheap and so profit margins wouldn't be great.

When the first positive study on PA was released last year the remind me about it, and I've spent a lot of reading time over the past year studying the ingredient.

It's kind of a shame that some of the phospholipids are covered by patents for some sues, since I think you can definitely make the case that there was prior art in the area going back decades.

It looks like the USPTO finally stated acknowledging that though with the rejection of the PA patent and hard stance they've been taking about the benefits of soy lecithin rendering claims about PA from soy lecithin as unpatentable.
 
I'm wondering if the reason PA never did anything for me was simply the dose was not high enough. I'd like to try the lecithin route, probably in the Fearn brand, maybe 3 tbsp preworkout with my Conqr3r scoop...
 
I'm wondering if the reason PA never did anything for me was simply the dose was not high enough. I'd like to try the lecithin route, probably in the Fearn brand, maybe 3 tbsp preworkout with my Conqr3r scoop...

The dose could be a reason but we shall not forget there is non responders too like Dr wilson and stout said

3 TS of fearn soy lecithin would give u 1.8g PA. so thats not bad dosage :)
 
Not only Stout but Dr Wilson too :)

I used 1.5g from april and i clearly felt 750mg was nothing to brag of. But 1.5g was much better..

Increase in apetitte
Musclefulness
Size and strength

I asked wilson would 3g PA be more beneficial than regular 750mg ..

Answer:
To be honest based on our cell culture data I think it would work better

Those who dont feel anything from PA i recommend to increase at least to 1.5g but really should play with even higher dosages

This is relative to my intrests
 
Nobody asked back then.

The actual study doesn't mention Mediator either iirc or what sort of PA apart from that which comes from soy appears to be vastly superior for mTOR to egg PA, most likely due to being unsaturated and thus having a different molecular structure to that of egg PA (referenced in the study, in the section with the cell culture mTOR chart and discussions section).

Stout was also smart enough to not mention bulk soy lecithin as a source when people asked what was the best source for PA on the tnation Q&A thread for Micro-PA. So it appears that people didn't really think about lecithin until recently when TheScience brought it up. Granted you mentioned it first asfaik on your podcast episode on the topic.

He would of never in a million years been allowed to say that on the tnation forum it would have been defcon 5 over there if he did. They would of probably had him executed for even thinking about it.
 
Their theory on using it on off days to increase mTOR to enhance recovery is based on the theory that the PA will act at the intracellular level. At the time they did the Tampa strength training study, they have not yet done the sedentary people study (as the Tampa strength training with PA study even notes that sedentary people/muscle wasting should be investigated, implying they didn't have the en vivo data for that yet). They were still assuming that the PA may have the endogenous PA effect.

Think about how PA typically works. It actually doesn't need physical stimuli to act on mTOR (that was mentioned in the Q&A thread as well). It's a signaler and also attaches itself to mTOR. Based on that assumption of how PA works, it makes sense to take it at other times outside of the period in which physical stimuli is present (exercise), assuming that the PA would make its way to a significant degree into the phosopholipids pool of cells. Thus why the sedentary people study is of importance here, going by what is understood of how endogenous PA works, the sedentary subjects should have demonstrated increased anabolism from PA supplementation. Alas, they did not.

So IF you take the result of the sedentary people study along with Tampa's cell culture data AND previous cell culture data, it would become evident that the way supplemental PA works is that it will have the mTOR effects we are looking for WHEN it is available in circulation in your body (serum) around periods of physical stress (exercise) because that is the window in which PLA2 is present at the extracellular level (due to sufficient physical stress placed on cells, leakage basically).

Thus what Stout and Wilson were talking about 9+ months ago, that was when they did not have the results from the sedentary people study and thus assuming that PA supplementation may have significant intracellular activity to stimulate mTOR. Thus going by that logic, when you take it on off days and if it made it into cells to a significant degree, it should keep you more anabolic.

Another thing to note, notice what Stout was talking about when he talks about keeping serum levels high with PA around workout time. The reason this is suggested, again, is based on PLA2 being present at the extra cellular level to convert the PA to LPA. This is also likely why Wilson and Stout suggests higher PA doses may be better, because you now have more of it circulating giving you a higher percentage of PA converting to LPA.

PA is also not anti-catabolic. It's pro-anabolic in terms of what it does at the intracellular level as it is a signaler for mTOR (anabolism). Exogenous PA however is indirectly anabolic, it's actually providing the substrate for LPA, LPA engages ERK and that leads down in a cascade in which it will stimulate mTOR.

Leucine is also directly anabolic, it is indirectly anti-catabolic. The anti-catabolic activity is actually due to the increase in insulin. Insulin is anti-catabolic, leucine increases insulin release. Just an interesting tidbit for you there.

Also. note De__eB:

Saw your message. I did read the Tampa study thoroughly. Please note in that study they mentioned that investigation of PA's anabolic effects for the use of muscle wasting/sedentary populations should be conducted. At the time that Tampa strength training study was done, they did not have the data on sedentary subjects yet. Their theory on how it may work on sedentary subjects is actually based on the assumption that PA may make it into cell phospholipid pools. That did not pan out in the sedentary subjects study, which was never published since it was funded by ChemiNutra and one of their main bullet points in their patent (obviously it was never published because it didn't work, thus throwing the theory out the window at least for now, and it obviously doesn't look good for ChemiNutra to have a study disprove one of their talking points for Mediator, I'm guessing ChemiNutra owns the study and decides to publish it or not? or it may be that it's under peer review? this was months back that Wilson mentioned it on a podcast somewhere).

nuh even if you take 2-3 days of a week your body is still under physical stress from the previous workouts. I don't see why it wouldn't work on off days when your body is building up
 
He would of never in a million years been allowed to say that on the tnation forum it would have been defcon 5 over there if he did. They would of probably had him executed for even thinking about it.


Lol true!
T nation forum deleted my thread where i asked why some companies even containing mediator like microPA Selling the product half price of MicroPA. LOL..

I wonder what would happen if i write on that forum about 8$ soy lecithine :)
 
nuh even if you take 2-3 days of a week your body is still under physical stress from the previous workouts. I don't see why it wouldn't work on off days when your body is building up

Or even so the study proves nothing there is a huge difference between a sedentary person and someone taking an off day unless stout or the other guy said dont take it on off days themselves. Otherwise your overthinking it which isn't a stretch knowing you tbh
 
Spent a LOT of time reading about phospholipids thinking of things that would work well with ArA. Discussions about uses of lecithin have been going on for quite a while, I think a lot of companies don't want to run it through because everyone knows it's cheap and so profit margins wouldn't be great.

When the first positive study on PA was released last year the remind me about it, and I've spent a lot of reading time over the past year studying the ingredient.

It's kind of a shame that some of the phospholipids are covered by patents for some sues, since I think you can definitely make the case that there was prior art in the area going back decades.

It looks like the USPTO finally stated acknowledging that though with the rejection of the PA patent and hard stance they've been taking about the benefits of soy lecithin rendering claims about PA from soy lecithin as unpatentable.

So essentially the ChemiNutra patent was nulled likely due to how ubiquitous lecithin is in the food supple?
 
I am as well. I'm using the expensive stuff too, haven't moved on to the SL yet :P Covering my bases of course, just in case it does something. Then again, I only have 1 day off from the gym per week.

Jesus Christ after all that? wtf bro?
 
Lol true!
T nation forum deleted my thread where i asked why some companies even containing mediator like microPA Selling the product half price of MicroPA. LOL..

I wonder what would happen if i write on that forum about 8$ soy lecithine :)

I bet you're not allowed to post anymore either, try it.
 
I'm not even allowed to post over there anymore because I critisized a pic of a group of fat power lifters they had on an article claiming they were in shape. Big difference between being fat and in shape no matter how much muscle you have under it.
 
I had a thread deleted for asking why they added imallutose to the plazma? wtf you cant even explain why and ingredient was added to an 80 dollar/20 serving supplement that has 3 ingredients?


After finding out exactly how bad they are ripping us off for micro pa thanks to this thread im seriously considering dropping them as a supplier.
 
I had a thread deleted for asking why they added imallutose to the plazma? wtf you cant even explain why and ingredient was added to an 80 dollar/20 serving supplement that has 3 ingredients?


After finding out exactly how bad they are ripping us off for micro pa thanks to this thread im seriously considering dropping them as a supplier.

That other carb source they put in there is actually a pretty good carb source. There's also some data supporting that a mix of carbs with varying digestive rates for intra may be better than just a single source.

But their reps probably don't really know who the iso-whatever is in there :P
 
That other carb source they put in there is actually a pretty good carb source. There's also some data supporting that a mix of carbs with varying digestive rates for intra may be better than just a single source.

But their reps probably don't really know who the iso-whatever is in there :P
I got that later but still not the point it's like the third reich over there
 
Hey guys I read a certain amount of the and now will buy the cheaper PA but I have some questions. So I saw the cheaper one is dosed higher then king but can we go any higher? Also how about using this on a cut? Lastly how long could I run it for?
 
Does anyone know if NOW Lecithin Granules Non-GMO had Phosphatidic Acid?

The Nutrition Facts it only shows

Naturally occurring phospholipids (example) (per serving)
(1 1/2 tablespoons)*:
Phosphatidyl Choline 2.3 g (2,300 mg)
Phosphatidyl Inositol 1.4 g (1,400 mg)
* subject to natural variability
 
Does anyone know if NOW Lecithin Granules Non-GMO had Phosphatidic Acid?

The Nutrition Facts it only shows

Its in there but someone asked them on bb.com and they said they do not disclose or probably even test for the amount so I'd go with Fearn or some other brand that has the amount listed. The amount varies a little by brand from what I've seen so I'd get one that shows the amount and calculate by how cheap it is per mg of PA. Fearn is so cheap that I didn't check any of the other ones but some were mentioned in that thread over there iirc
 
Its in there but someone asked them on bb.com and they said they do not disclose or probably even test for the amount so I'd go with Fearn or some other brand that has the amount listed. The amount varies a little by brand from what I've seen so I'd get one that shows the amount and calculate by how cheap it is per mg of PA. Fearn is so cheap that I didn't check any of the other ones but some were mentioned in that thread over there iirc
awesome, thanks a lot.
 
Its in there but someone asked them on bb.com and they said they do not disclose or probably even test for the amount so I'd go with Fearn or some other brand that has the amount listed. The amount varies a little by brand from what I've seen so I'd get one that shows the amount and calculate by how cheap it is per mg of PA. Fearn is so cheap that I didn't check any of the other ones but some were mentioned in that thread over there iirc


This!

Fearn or Optima Soy Lecithin
 
Its in there but someone asked them on bb.com and they said they do not disclose or probably even test for the amount so I'd go with Fearn or some other brand that has the amount listed. The amount varies a little by brand from what I've seen so I'd get one that shows the amount and calculate by how cheap it is per mg of PA. Fearn is so cheap that I didn't check any of the other ones but some were mentioned in that thread over there iirc
Optima was one of the other brands. It's more expensive than Fearn, but it has more PA and is non-GMO. For the price, Fearn still seems like the best deal.
 
So I ended up emailing Stout re dosing PA on off days, asking him if, given the more recent sedentary studies, he would recommend prewo only dosing. He replied and said there is a manuscript in review for publication which shows PA does increase protein synthesis in subjects at rest, and so therefore he assumes dosing on off days would be a good idea.

btw the subjects in this study were rats so, yeah...
 
I mean soy lecithin is damn cheap and there are other health benefits when taking everyday due to other phospholipids. So take it everyday :)
 
PA = phospholipid
LPA = phospholipid derivative (Signaling molecule)

Yeah, I got that much from a cursory look at the wiki page. What I would like to know is if LPA does what PA does (in the context we as trainees are interested in).
 
PA can be metabolically converted to either LPA or diacylglycerol.these studies also indicate that it is PA, and not metabolites of PA, that is acting on mTOR.

mTOR Regulation by PA

The PA connection.*The first demonstration that PA was involved in the regulation of mTOR came from the lab of Jie Chen , who showed that exogenously provided PA stimulated the activation of the mTOR substrate S6 kinase and phosphorylation of another mTOR substrate eukaryotic initiation factor 4E binding protein-1 (4E-BP1) in HEK293 cells. The effect of PA was sensitive to rapamycin and was dependent on the presence of amino acids . The amino acid dependence indicated that the effect of PA was physiologic. Subsequently, Blenis' group similarly showed that PA stimulated S6 kinase activity in HEK293 cells . The ability of PA to stimulate S6 kinase was suppressed by coexpression of TSC1/2, also suggesting that the PA-induced S6 kinase activity was physiologic. PA was also shown to activate mTOR in macrophages in an Akt-dependent manner . In addition, Xu et al. showed that mTOR could be activated by phosphonate analogues of PA as measured by increased S6 kinase activity. Thus, several laboratories have shown that mTOR is activated in response to exogenously supplied PA, and in two of these cases, there was another physiologic component other than PA that contributes to the regulation of mTOR, suggesting that the effects of PA were not artifacts.
 
Yeah, I got that much from a cursory look at the wiki page. What I would like to know is if LPA does what PA does (in the context we as trainees are interested in).

As we know PS,LPA and PA is activating mTOR .
I am not sure if supplementing with LPA would activate mTOR like PA does
 
So I ended up emailing Stout re dosing PA on off days, asking him if, given the more recent sedentary studies, he would recommend prewo only dosing. He replied and said there is a manuscript in review for publication which shows PA does increase protein synthesis in subjects at rest, and so therefore he assumes dosing on off days would be a good idea.

btw the subjects in this study were rats so, yeah...
We're talking gym rats, right?

For the price of the lecithin, you're not really spending much money at all to take it on off days. Any additional benefit you get out of it seems like it would be worth the cost of taking it on rest days.
 
What is the difference between "phosphatidic acid" and "lysophosphatidic acid"?

Lysophosphatidic acid is just phosphatidic acid with a single fat group instead of two fat groups.

It is used as substrate in the synthesis of other phospholipids as part of the phospholipid metabolic cascade.

So yeah, that's why it shows MPS/mTOR activity similar to PA.
 
Lysophosphatidic acid is just phosphatidic acid with a single fat group instead of two fat groups.

It is used as substrate in the synthesis of other phospholipids as part of the phospholipid metabolic cascade.

So yeah, that's why it shows MPS/mTOR activity similar to PA.

Isnt LPA water soluble and PA fat soluble?
 
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