cbsharpe
Well-known member
When in doubt, throw it out....that's my motto.....
Frenzy profile at last
- Thread starter Chub
- Start date
When in doubt, throw it out....that's my motto.....
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Or sell it to a sucker?
That would be evil. Lulz.I guess I'll just wait and see, if it turns out the stuff is really harmful, tossing it. Both the AMPitropin as well as the EVOL.
cbsharpe
Well-known member
Or sell it to a sucker?
I guess I'll just wait and see, if it turns out the stuff is really harmful, tossing it. Both the AMPitropin as well as the EVOL.
LOL.."selling it to a sucker" U aint right dook!
But yeah, keep it until further notice and see what transpires and toss it if need be. We need you around these here forums bro!
kissdadookie
Well-known member
LOL.."selling it to a sucker" U aint right dook!
But yeah, keep it until further notice and see what transpires and toss it if need be. We need you around these here forums bro!
Lulz. Just to be clear, I would not have sold/passed on something dangerous to another person, I only said it in jest
De__eB
Well-known member
Or sell it to a sucker?
I guess I'll just wait and see, if it turns out the stuff is really harmful, tossing it. Both the AMPitropin as well as the EVOL.
If a product sucks, return it.
If a product seems unsafe, return it.
Jokes on you if you pay for a product, don't even use it, and then buy another product to replace it.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
AH! Returning, forgot about that, I can still do that with the AMPitropin since it's never been opened. EVOL I've used a bit of already though.
De__eB
Well-known member
Most places have a satisfaction guarantee.
I mean, you don't want to be that ******* that uses 29/30 servings and returns stuff because they're an *******.
But if you buy a product and legitimately aren't happy with the results, return it to the store, or even better, to the manufacturer.
High return rates can have an affect on things, consumers just don't utilize what they have available to them.
T-Bone
Banned
Potential Health Effects
Eye: Causes eye burns.
Skin: Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Causes skin burns.
Ingestion: Harmful if swallowed. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns.
Inhalation: Harmful if inhaled. Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. Inhalation
may be fatal as a result of spasm, inflammation, edema of the larynx and
bronchi, chemical pneumonitis and pulmonary edema.
Yep a return will fix all that...
Eye: Causes eye burns.
Skin: Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Causes skin burns.
Ingestion: Harmful if swallowed. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns.
Inhalation: Harmful if inhaled. Causes chemical burns to the respiratory tract. Inhalation
may be fatal as a result of spasm, inflammation, edema of the larynx and
bronchi, chemical pneumonitis and pulmonary edema.
Yep a return will fix all that...
Auslifter
Well-known member
well after having an issue breathing on the way to gym when i popped some amp citrate caps i sure as hell won't be using the stuff again. was not the issue of high stims either, i am pointing the gun at AMP, however the "explosive workouts" or rage it gave me was pretty sweet, one time using it a few weeks ago alongside norcodrene and a pwo, i was hitting PR's all over the place, it kind of has this tempo of energy, it will slow down then before a set you could wait and then i would almost have this surge of aggression and power. so i would like to see some research done about the saftey of it soon, because it did stack well with some other pre's.
oh yeah, another thing i took note of after using amp caps/ going through a few tubs of evol, was post workout it gave me a huge boner LOL im guessing it increases blood flow down below or something because usually after taking a stim heavy pre that would be the opposite
oh yeah, another thing i took note of after using amp caps/ going through a few tubs of evol, was post workout it gave me a huge boner LOL im guessing it increases blood flow down below or something because usually after taking a stim heavy pre that would be the opposite
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
Better stop taking caffeine too.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
The LD50 for AMP with mice is more than what's in one cap of Ampitropin.
I wouldn't worry.
I wouldn't worry.
NO_HYPE
Banned
mr.cooper69
Legend
The LD50 is the highest dose that can be given in a single bolus that kills 50% of the subjects. The caveat here is that progressive conditions (i.e. GI ulceration from mucosal irritation) won't be found unless a long term safety study is conducted. This is why if I just find LD50 research on an ingredient, it's not sufficient to include in a product. You need an actual safety study, which usually administers X ingredient for a few weeks or more
Hydra
New member
Great post. It's the usual group of "bros" grasping at straws. MSDS sheet on caffeine is just as bad. Where is this same group analyzing DMAA (which is listed as toxic)? I like EVOL a lot so I wouldn't listen to this group. They never seem to put the same bias in their own products as they do to other companies.
edit: bought a tub of Frenzy will report back in a few days.
edit: bought a tub of Frenzy will report back in a few days.
Afi140
Legend
Agenda much? You joined today and this is your first post. Cool try. "Bro"
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Damn, that caffeine there look friggin dangerous...
T-Bone
Banned
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
The amount of AMP in the LD50 on rats was the same as a typical human dose.
That means they killed a few rats giving them a full scoop of Evol lol... Not concerned
Supercellular
Member
Took Frenzy today and it blew Evol out of the water.
De__eB
Well-known member
Has there been any safety study on humans consuming doses of AMP being used in supplements?
It is impossible for anybody to have ever consumed a couple hundred milligrams of AMP from a dietary source.
Caffeine is consumed via natural sources in significant quantities.
Nobody's saying don't use new ingredients, or don't use powerful stimulants. I was a fan of DMAA and I'd like to see AMP stay on the market.
But if you're marketing a stimulant that is clearly synthetic and not natural, has never been sold as a supplement before, and has zero safety data in humans whatsoever, what the hell does anybody expect to happen.
My only stake on the issue is, don't pretend the ingredient is something it's not (Pouchong tea aroma extract? Are you ****ing kidding me?), and at least get some rudimentary human safety data.
People can talk about how the FDA are bullys in the pockets of big pharma all they want, and people can talk about how you think things should work all they want.
That doesn't change reality. That doesn't change every company's legal obligation to establish a reasonable expectation of safety for every new ingredient being marketed.
When the FDA comes calling, what is anybody going to have to say for themselves about AMP?
It is impossible for anybody to have ever consumed a couple hundred milligrams of AMP from a dietary source.
Caffeine is consumed via natural sources in significant quantities.
Nobody's saying don't use new ingredients, or don't use powerful stimulants. I was a fan of DMAA and I'd like to see AMP stay on the market.
But if you're marketing a stimulant that is clearly synthetic and not natural, has never been sold as a supplement before, and has zero safety data in humans whatsoever, what the hell does anybody expect to happen.
My only stake on the issue is, don't pretend the ingredient is something it's not (Pouchong tea aroma extract? Are you ****ing kidding me?), and at least get some rudimentary human safety data.
People can talk about how the FDA are bullys in the pockets of big pharma all they want, and people can talk about how you think things should work all they want.
That doesn't change reality. That doesn't change every company's legal obligation to establish a reasonable expectation of safety for every new ingredient being marketed.
When the FDA comes calling, what is anybody going to have to say for themselves about AMP?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Well, at least for the above in bold, can't put too much blame on DS for this one since LeCheek was the one that came up with the whole pouchong tea aroma extract thing (which undoubtedly they took from the write up for the ingredient that came from some company in China).
eaturs
New member
Most people who have used AMP Citrate seem to point out that it works but it's effect is somewhat limited, weaker than DMAA's. So, while it works they don't seem to be so impressed so far. Why is frenzy already having these surprising reviews? The only two active ingredients I can see there are AMP Citrate and Citrus Aurantium, the latter being somewhat of a dirty stim and not very active either. Let's put it this way:
- AMP Citrate: It works ok but it's far from being the ultimate stimulant.
- Citrus aurantium: Dirty stim, hardly effective.
- Frenzy = AMP Citrate + Citrus Aurantium = Incredibly effective stimulant.
Hypotheses:
1) People who used craze are biasing their own judgement thinking that this has got to compare to Craze no matter what the ingredient profile is. They are thus inducing a placebo response somehow.
2) AMP Citrate's full potential can only be seen at insanely high dosages and Frenzy dared to put several grams of AMP Citrate per serving.
3) Synergy between the ingredients. Unlikely because there are only two active ingredients and the rest is pretty much inactive. Moreover, synergy between AMP Citrate and caffeine has already been explored in other products and remains unimpressive so far.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether the rave reviews continue once the initial overly optimistic response that usually happens when a supplement first comes to market disappears.
- AMP Citrate: It works ok but it's far from being the ultimate stimulant.
- Citrus aurantium: Dirty stim, hardly effective.
- Frenzy = AMP Citrate + Citrus Aurantium = Incredibly effective stimulant.
Hypotheses:
1) People who used craze are biasing their own judgement thinking that this has got to compare to Craze no matter what the ingredient profile is. They are thus inducing a placebo response somehow.
2) AMP Citrate's full potential can only be seen at insanely high dosages and Frenzy dared to put several grams of AMP Citrate per serving.
3) Synergy between the ingredients. Unlikely because there are only two active ingredients and the rest is pretty much inactive. Moreover, synergy between AMP Citrate and caffeine has already been explored in other products and remains unimpressive so far.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether the rave reviews continue once the initial overly optimistic response that usually happens when a supplement first comes to market disappears.
De__eB
Well-known member
So shady practices aren't your fault as long as someone else did it first?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
What I'm saying is that most of this focus on AMP in a negative light is surrounding the release of Frenzy which objectively speaking, it makes little to no sense seeing how AMP has been in products for awhile and when LeCheek described AMP as being a constituent of pouchong tea aroma, not one person that I can recall batted an eye at that. Now that the Frenzy label has been posted up, it's as if this whole pouchong tea aroma thing is something brand new. I'm not saying that DS is an awesome ethical and moral company, but where was all this backlash when LeCheek released their products? I'm also not defending DS here, just stating an observation.
eaturs
New member
Why are they marketing this "Pouchong tea aroma extract" instead of 5-methyl-2-heptanamine which is probably way more effective as a clean stimulant and has decent data to back up its being natural as it occurs naturally in walnut tree bark?
Evidence:
ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/ijb/article/view/25651
Why the hell isn't anybody selling this?
eaturs
New member
This is moreless my viewpoint as well. It seems like sort of a battle between supplement companies. It's none of my business, but if one overly focuses on that motivation of fighting a foe, facts tend to get somewhat biased. I think we should stick to discussing all these ingredients in a more conventional way, which doesn't exclude being critical and skeptical, of course, but you know what I mean.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Agreed, which leads into the following:So why so much concern about the safety of AMP now that Frenzy is out yet little to no discussion on the safety of AMP prior to Frenzy?Not that I'm claiming it's safe, I'm sustaining from using AMP products any further until more information comes forth on it (plus I'm sticking to my current cutting stack religiously).
eaturs
New member
I think it's because they are sort of waging a war against Driven Sports, which is no doubt a shady company. The problem is that, in the process, other legit companies that sell AMP Citrate might be harmed and, ultimately, if AMP Citrate is banned as a result all the customers that want to have freedom of choice of what they eat will be negatively affected as well. This is not to say that AMP Citrate is healthy, but there's a caveat emptor principle that every customer should start considering.
All in all, I am not saying that we should not be discussing this information. It is good to discuss it because it allows customers to take more informed choices. It's the sensationalistic way in which it is being discussed what I find more objectionable.
T-Bone
Banned
Well, then they'll start some stupid thread bashing the FDA and making ridiculous comparisons to alcohol and cigarettes. It's will get completely out of hand politically and be closed a few short weeks later.
mr.cooper69
Legend
Yeah I agree, the MSDS sheets don't really tell a whole lot for many popular ingredients. Still, I wish we had more than LD50 data. At least in the case of DMAA, it was tested in dogs (which are the best living model for autonomic stimulation) so we could see exactly how it affected BP and HR. And then after that, there were several human trials of course.
NO_HYPE
Banned
We already know the kinetics/dynamics of caffeine. We know nothing about this compound.
NO_HYPE
Banned
lol.... I don't think anyone here was insinuating that the dose in ampitropin or frenzy was enough to kill anybody.
Cool. I'll wait till some actual evidence surfaces.
Afi140
Legend
That's my thing. I actually like AMP so far. However, if the side effects will have lasting consequences, some of which are unknown, I would much rather pass than continue to ingest.
NO_HYPE
Banned
lol.... What "backlash"?
Is it backlash cuz a few of us were discussing the unusual physiochemical properties of AMP and/or the potential health concerns it may pose following prolonged use?
As far as any negative attention that AMP might be getting now after Cahill decided to put this stuff in Frenzy.... Do you honestly think it could be any other way when we're talking about a guy who puts undisclosed meth analogues in his products? Be it by media.... or GC-MS, every questionable compound this guy puts in his formulations from here on out will draw plenty of attention and will be closely examined, so get used to it.
NO_HYPE
Banned
FL3X MAGNUM
Legend
I'm pretty sure there were a couple members making a big deal about a page back. Just trying to put things into perspective. Mice are a lot smaller than people
NO_HYPE
Banned
Might be a long wait.
Then again, I'm thinking the shelf-life of 1,3-dimethylbutylamine might be coming to an end once Cahill's name becomes more associated with it and/or with any future health complications that may arise with prolonged use, but I guess time will tell.
NO_HYPE
Banned
Well I can only speak for myself, but there's no big deal as far as I'm concerned. I'm not gonna play the role of a guinea pig and start supplementing a compound where the only data I can find on it, comes from a hazardous substance or hazardous transport list, with zero safety data or history of use.
Just trying to put things into perspective. Mice are a lot smaller than people
And the dose of AMP it takes to kill a mouse doesn't say chit about what dose is safe when chronically ingested.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Where was this discussion when Genomyx started using it a good while back? Where was this discussion when LeCheek start putting out multiple products with it in it? Where was this discussion when VPX used it (I think it's in Redline White Heat)? Where was the pitching tea discussion when LeCheek first put out ad copy for products containing AMP?
I am not talking about media attention, I'm talking about in-the-know supplements consumer discussions like the one we are having now. It's a bit disingenuous for you to be implying that this very recent discussion we are having on safety of AMP is based on actual health concerns because where was this discussion a good long while back when EVOL came out?
I am also not saying that this is not a good discussion not am I defending DS. I think DS and Cahill are pretty scummy. I also feel that this is a good discussion. I'm just pointing out some of the obviousness with the timing of this discussion on AMP, to put things into perspective and context.
NO_HYPE
Banned
Cahill brought this compound to my attention when he put his grimy hands on it. Not genomyx or lecheek. So I posted the only literature I could find on it.... an MSDS. There is no hidden agenda here
Philosophy
Member
Exactly, every product released by DS will be scrutinised regardless of the ingredients.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Which I find is kind of silly to only stay on alert for what DS puts out when companies are putting out new compounds quite frequently these days with little to no human and safety data, or questionable data. If the point is to protect consumers, then every hyped up new compound should be scrutinized just as carefully especially in terms of safety. How long have AMP products been out now? How is bringing this up now helping people exactly if it turns out that AMP is harmful and goodness knows how many en mass have been giddily consuming products containing the ingredient? God forbid that the stuff is dangerous, luckily for me I never used it long term, kept the EVOL around only to use occasionally in order to keep my sensitivity to the other higher caffeine/stim pre's that I enjoy to stay effective.
Philosophy
Member
I agree entirely, however rationality is rare amongst the commons/consumers. People prefer to find a target to attack, in which DS has become one of late.
Your argument revolves around trust, in reality who can you trust other than yourself...
NO_HYPE
Banned
lol.... If the FDA won't "protect the consumer".... What makes you think anyone here is going to?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Then what would your point be in bringing up the matter of safety for AMP? Either you're trying to be helpful to the community or you are trashing a company. Pick one or the other. I'm giving your the benefit of the doubt and will assume that it's the first and not the latter, in which, it would be very helpful if you were to scrutinize new compounds that are being hyped regardless of whom's putting out a product containing it.
NO_HYPE
Banned
Because it was a topic I felt discussing. If my questions about the lack of safety for a particular compound or product ultimately helps someone, then that's cool, but I'm not interested in "protecting the consumer"..... that's an impossible task.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
So you say there's no agenda but also admit that this only peaked your interest and spurred your input on the matter only because it's DS and Cahill. Is that not by definition a agenda? Btw, I think Cahill is one of the scums of the earth, but so's goodness knows how many others in the supplement industry. Cahill just seems to have more fans thus a more prominent target.
IMO, you really should have just left commenting about how you had no agenda out of the picture when I was pointing out very obvious trends here to provide context to the discussion, because you said you had no agenda but now you're basically saying that you do. Just my 2 cents, not that it matters much. Thought it was interesting to just provide some context around all this.