Zac Speed
Member
That's taking into account a modernization of human life.
i am for phil
- Thread starter thebigt
- Start date
That's taking into account a modernization of human life.
thebigt
Legend
it was not an easy decision, josh. but my heart over-rode many years of opposite thinking.
geoforce really is a standup guy....i told him that what he is doing for his brother is putting family 1st, and family 1st is the motto that i live by.
thebigt
Legend
geez, man...education doesn't make you a better person, and character isn't taught in school.
if you are so damned educated then start acting like it, instead of a grade school bully looking for a fight after school.
are you on roids or something...i hope so, at least that would partially explain your behavior.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Bitches about name calling...resorts to name calling. One more time just for fun: hypocrite.
Touey
Well-known member
You are talking about the laws of men. Regardless the Country or laws therein, the fact is the worse the Country or place one may find theirself the more the need
thebigt
Legend
yup...i am. i started this thread saying one thing, and i end up saying the opposite.
have a nice life, and i really pray you get some help with that attitude!!!
GOD bless, my friend!!!
Rodja
Board Sponsor
That's not the point, but you always miss the message and instead harp on an irrelevant issue.
thebigt
Legend
what do we have left to argue about?
if you want to argue just for the sake of arguing then i am tired and going to bed, i really do have better things to do with my time.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
I could bring up multiple issues, but you'll just spin them to find fault with a minor portion.
Geoforce
Well-known member
All we have is the laws of men. Men cannot agree on which faith is correct and therefore we can't make our laws based on faith. This is the entire point of freedom of religion.
If everyone in America believed the exact same thing we could use that as our basis for laws. Since they don't, we cannot. The United States Constitution explicitly states this and it is the very idea behind separation of church and state.
thebigt
Legend
Geoforce
Well-known member
Well depending on the state their is a myriad of things that make this incorrect.
And yet the very statement itself is incorrect. Different rules for different people means rights are not the same. Separate but equal was the prevailing thinking before desegregation.
One cannot say "we have equal rights, gays can do this." Unless the this is the exact same thing as heterosexuals then we do not have equal rights. The rights of gay people are vastly different anyways depending on the state.
Touey
Well-known member
I know and see the point you make on laws of men but this has nothing to do with "Regardless the Country or laws therein, the fact is the worse the Country or place one may find theirself the more the need"
the ever changing laws of men have nothing to do with the need of mens souls
Geoforce
Well-known member
Perhaps, but the needs of mens souls again is highly subjective. The needs you think and the needs I think and the needs someone in Saudi Arabia thinks may all be completely different.
As far as the worse the country I think America in 2014 is pretty freaking good. Like I said this isn't a popular position in the world of fear, fear, fear, fear! I'm an optimist. I think things are better right now than they ever have been. Doesn't mean we don't have problems. Doesn't mean I don't have concern for the future. Doesn't mean we have nothing to work on.
I just think this point in history is pretty awesome when compared to a lot of past times.
Touey
Well-known member
You are looking at things from the view of men, I wish to leave you with quote
"“I do not think there is a demonstrative proof (like Euclid) of Christianity, nor of the existence of matter, nor of the good will and honesty of my best and oldest friends. I think all three are (except perhaps the second) far more probable than the alternatives. The case for Christianity in general is well given by Chesterton…As to why God doesn't make it demonstratively clear; are we sure that He is even interested in the kind of Theism which would be a compelled logical assent to a conclusive argument? Are we interested in it in personal matters? I demand from my friend trust in my good faith which is certain without demonstrative proof. It wouldn't be confidence at all if he waited for rigorous proof. Hang it all, the very fairy-tales embody the truth. Othello believed in Desdemona's innocence when it was proved: but that was too late. Lear believed in Cordelia's love when it was proved: but that was too late. 'His praise is lost who stays till all commend.' The magnanimity, the generosity which will trust on a reasonable probability, is required of us. But supposing one believed and was wrong after all? Why, then you would have paid the universe a compliment it doesn't deserve. Your error would even so be more interesting and important than the reality. And yet how could that be? How could an idiotic universe have produced creatures whose mere dreams are so much stronger, better, subtler than itself?”
― C.S. Lewis
“When we try to focus our thought upon One who is pure uncreated being we may see nothing at all, for He dwelleth in light that no man can approach unto. Only by faith and love are we able to glimpse Him as He passes by our shelter in the cleft of the rock.”
― A.W. Tozer
Geoforce
Well-known member
Thank you for the quote, but I can only look at things through the view of man because that is all I am. I cannot view things in any other manner. I know what I observe. I know what reason and rationality tell me is true.
I cannot pretend to know what is best for men's souls (or even if men's souls exist). If you can then kudos to you Touey, but it is not something I am capable of.
Touey
Well-known member
“Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Chesterton's views of religion are absolutely antiquated and as nonsensical as this post is to reason itself. Just because he says it does not make it true.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
No explanation...sure, because faith is unexplainable by nature. This statement is pure sophistry.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Do you have any ideas of your own?
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Faith is worthless. Understanding why things work reveals the true beauty of the universe.
BoneDaddy
Well-known member
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."
-- Christopher Hitchens
-- Christopher Hitchens
Sr_505
Active member
One if the best writers and public speakers of our time. It's a shame that he's no longer with us. He basically started the descent of my faith after going to a Christian school all my life lol.
Touey
Well-known member
“Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy
BoneDaddy
Well-known member
That's very apropos, because a lot of the garbage I've read on here today have no relation to reality.
Faith means not wanting to know what is true. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Change the record Big Brother demanded orthodoxy in 1984. In fact, Hitchens points out that Orwell may have had a religious allegory in mind all the time regarding high priests of an oppressive culture who command a powerful and cryptic language as the basis of extinguishing freedom of thought. Illiterate peasants from bygone eras who could neither read nor understand Latin merely thought they were hearing "hocus pocus" in masses. Touey brings mumbo jumbo.
Touey
Well-known member
“You see, gentlemen, reason is an excellent thing, there’s no disputing that, but reason is nothing but reason and satisfies only the rational side of man’s nature, while will is a manifestation of the whole life, that is, of the whole human life including reason and all the impulses. And although our life, in this manifestation of it, is often worthless, yet it is life and not simply extracting square roots.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Piston Honda
Well-known member
More nonsense from a simpleton who can't articulate what he's posting
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
The gate is narrow and few will find it and many will be deceived. Praying for everyone in this thread right now.
Touey
Well-known member
“If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”
― Charles H. Spurgeon
― Charles H. Spurgeon
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Hell is empty, and the devils are here
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
It would be awesome if people started sharing what they stand for rather than what they stand against.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
It's not abundantly clear that we stand for equality, tolerance, rational thought, and evidence-based claims? Yikes.
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
Who exactly are you being tolerant to? Certainly not those who believe in God? The only thing I've seen you post is belittling comments. Practice what you preach
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Belittling those who can't come up with a secular-based reason why homosexuality is immoral or wrong. All the claims demonizing it come from religion. I won't be tolerant of intolerance.
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
Why would someone who is religious or someone who practices a religion ever take a secular view point? Very few if any of your comments in this thread have been helpful or loving.
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
By the way tolerance does not mean supporting something fully.
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Don't change the focus of my last statement. Take religion out of your reasoning and tell me why homosexuality is wrong. If I disregard religion for not being on equal footing with reason, understand the importance of evidence when making a claim. Is climate change The End Times, or a cascade of man-made and environmental causes? Often what people claim to be God's hand is actually an infinite mimesis of cause and effect that they are too lazy to follow. In summary, I disregard religion because it is a bygone remnant of our evolutionary thinking.
Sr_505
Active member
As valuable as solid quotes can be, it can be a bit frustrating to other people in a thread if all of your rebuttals are in the formal of only semi-related, general quotes.
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
Why would a religious individual ever take their faith out of their reasoning? Demanding someone do so is not being very tolerant is it? I just wish you came across in this thread in the same way you believe christains should treat homosexuals. But I am not seeing that. I know you are a cool guy but for some reason you seem burnt by religion. These conversations can be fun and exciting if respect is given on both sides.
Zac Speed
Member
Last I checked marriage was a religious ceremony. So they have the same rights for everything except that.. Where's the wrong in this?
Piston Honda
Well-known member
Because religious ideas cannot be proven. "Religious reasoning" is an oxymoron.
Zac Speed
Member
I bet Stephen Hawking would strongly disagree with this ignorant statement.
fightbackhxc
Well-known member
Just because I can't physically prove something doesn't mean I can't use something I believe in to reason with. I personally use my beliefs to reason with many things in life. It's called individual philosophy. How someone's beliefs affect the way they think and act.
Nothing but love for ya piston.
Geoforce
Well-known member
In a sense it is impossible for me to believe. I was raised and went to the Methodist church. I know the teachings and I believed it for close to 17 years of my life. I started to seriously question how much of my faith was simply because of what I was exposed to. Clearly a protestant faith in Kansas isn't that weird. We are all products of our location and environment. If my parents raised me in Iraq would I be methodist? Would I be Christian? It is highly unlikely. If I was born in India I would much more likely be Hindu than Methodist.
Right now I literally CAN'T believe. My brain won't let me. In some ways I am jealous of you. I think in a sense faith is much easier for people than not having faith is. I lost both my grandparents who I loved dearly in the last 6 years. I would love nothing more than to believe they are in some perfect place smiling down on me and waiting for me to see them. That would be awesome to believe. Logically, rationally, my brain won't LET me do that. It simply won't. It really is out of my control.
I'm definitely not against you coming to a different conclusion than me and that is absolutely fine with me. Believers who preach love and acceptance are great for the world. Believers who use their faith to peddle hate have plagued mankind for a long time. Some of my friends who believe have told me you just have to have faith. I'm telling you I cannot do that. In a lot of ways things would be easier if I could. It would be much better if when someone close to me dies I could say I will see them again. Rationally I just can't.
That's just how stuff works up in this crazy noggin of mine. One can pray for me all they want and in a sense that is flattering. If I try to pray for someone my brain wonders why I am talking to myself about someone else.
Sr_505
Active member
For example, if you were debating a Muslim on equal rights for women, and they kept quoting the Quran to you for proof that is was moral for women to be considered lower than men, you probably wouldn't take that as a very good explanation (I mean, maybe you would; I'm just making assumptions for the point I'm trying to make)...
Therefore, you could try and find common ground by taking the religious aspect out of it and speaking from a purely rational standpoint.
That's the same way an Atheist feels about a Christian arguing that something is right because it's part of their doctrine. What seems to be the easiest common ground to find is for both parties to think purely for themselves, not how a book tells them to think.
Geoforce
Well-known member
You said they have equal rights then proved they do not with your own words and now you are asking me what is wrong with that?
Simple, you have already proven they do not have equal rights. Close enough or they can do this which is somewhat similar in some locations is not equal. Just as blacks and whites in separate but equal schools was not equal. It's the exact same logic that was used to promote segregation. Not a shred of difference.
Read the entire thread and find the rational argument for opposing it. You can't. That's why people are changing their minds. You don't have to, but your logical fallacies will not end as you are not arguing from a position of logic.