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Nutrition and Health Roundtable

Not worth it.

You really love Alan Aragon lol.

I offer up counter evidence:
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These studies indicate that Keto diets serve a greater purpose than that of weight loss.
 
You really love Alan Aragon lol.

I offer up counter evidence:
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These studies indicate that Keto diets serve a greater purpose than that of weight loss.

Weight loss comes from a caloric deficit. Period
Why would you negate a macronutrient because it has plenty of benefits?
Carbs are protein sparing once minimum's are met
Carbs help raise leptin
Leptin helps burn extra fat and extra weight when in a deficit which happens from carb-ups/cheat meals etc
Carbs are also the main form of energy (Glucose) Especially performed during HIIT Cardio, so one on a keto diet doing HIIT Cardio they are tapping what? nothing, they have no glucose, LISS burns and taps fat reserves which would be optimal for someone on keto (hence dave's keto diet with massive cheat meals)

not a single study shown via weightlifting and fatloss
one study has to deal with cognitive thinking, but in rats.
 
Weight loss comes from a caloric deficit. Period
Why would you negate a macronutrient because it has plenty of benefits?
Carbs are protein sparing once minimum's are met
Carbs help raise leptin
Leptin helps burn extra fat and extra weight when in a deficit which happens from carb-ups/cheat meals etc
Carbs are also the main form of energy (Glucose) Especially performed during HIIT Cardio, so one on a keto diet doing HIIT Cardio they are tapping what? nothing, they have no glucose, LISS burns and taps fat reserves which would be optimal for someone on keto (hence dave's keto diet with massive cheat meals)

not a single study shown via weightlifting and fatloss

The studies were not geared toward a calorie deficit. And calling a calorie a calorie is simply misguided. Ketogenic diets improve CVD biomarkets and lipid profiles; this is shown in LCD and VLCKD.

Carbs are not the body's primary source of energy; they are only that way because you eat them and eating carbs inhibits lipolysis. Fat provides more energy per gram and is far more sustainable.
The body, once keto adapted, can use ketones to fuel exercise of any intensity and, the body is sufficiently capable of producing carbohydrates from non-carbohydrate sources.
 
The studies were not geared toward a calorie deficit. And calling a calorie a calorie is simply misguided. Ketogenic diets improve CVD biomarkets and lipid profiles; this is shown in LCD and VLCKD.

Carbs are not the body's primary source of energy; they are only that way because you eat them and eating carbs inhibits lipolysis. Fat provides more energy per gram and is far more sustainable.
The body, once keto adapted, can use ketones to fuel exercise of any intensity and, the body is sufficiently capable of producing carbohydrates from non-carbohydrate sources.

So your saying a Keto diet is therefore superior for a gaining phase since none of them had to deal with a dieting phase? If so why?
Again once you reach protein and fat minimums what is going to be more protein sparing? Adding in more protein to the point of 1.5-2g/lb or adding in carbs which will have protein sparing efects? Most of us who do not take forms of drugs/supplements that would cause an increased P-Ratio/Turnover may not benefit from doing so in the long run.

Sure my Cholesterol levels, and LDL Levels have dropped a ton even on a low fat diet (55-60g) a day from eating more beef and whole eggs, more than a higher fat diet has ever treated me (i use to eat 100 or so) when i would carb cycle, but to me the mental/physical aspects were not worth it
bloated, lack of energy, worse gym performance etc.

This is too individualistic. Some cant eat that way because it does not suit their body. Both are great, but many will find (if they can tolerate carbs) It treats them for the better. Many look at Keto and think OMG no carbs ill lose weight quick, they drop carbs, they lose water weight, and then when they stall they are clueless what to do next because they axe their kcal intake so fast the only resort they have is to jack up cardio. Most rarely use Keto for a gaining or mass phase. Its rare, but some people have to use it. I know an individual personally who thrives off protein and fat, but for the majority who do train and workout they are carb based or include various forms of carbs.

I think keto may have some benefits (especially towards the end of a contest prep diet) Where its needed to get so low to get the last bit of fat off with massive refeeds to help speed up t3, LEPTIN, and hormone levels and burn the last bit of fat, but for the majority i think its an escape they feel they may get results off of.
 
So your saying a Keto diet is therefore superior for a gaining phase since none of them had to deal with a dieting phase? If so why?
Again once you reach protein and fat minimums what is going to be more protein sparing? Adding in more protein to the point of 1.5-2g/lb or adding in carbs which will have protein sparing efects? Most of us who do not take forms of drugs/supplements that would cause an increased P-Ratio/Turnover may not benefit from doing so in the long run.

Sure my Cholesterol levels, and LDL Levels have dropped a ton even on a low fat diet (55-60g) a day from eating more beef and whole eggs, more than a higher fat diet has ever treated me (i use to eat 100 or so) when i would carb cycle, but to me the mental/physical aspects were not worth it
bloated, lack of energy, worse gym performance etc.

This is too individualistic. Some cant eat that way because it does not suit their body. Both are great, but many will find (if they can tolerate carbs) It treats them for the better. Many look at Keto and think OMG no carbs ill lose weight quick, they drop carbs, they lose water weight, and then when they stall they are clueless what to do next because they axe their kcal intake so fast the only resort they have is to jack up cardio. Most rarely use Keto for a gaining or mass phase. Its rare, but some people have to use it. I know an individual personally who thrives off protein and fat, but for the majority who do train and workout they are carb based or include various forms of carbs.

I think keto may have some benefits (especially towards the end of a contest prep diet) Where its needed to get so low to get the last bit of fat off with massive refeeds to help speed up t3, LEPTIN, and hormone levels and burn the last bit of fat, but for the majority i think its an escape they feel they may get results off of.

And conversely, many do not like high carb diets. For me personally, I felt rubbish. So subjective measures mean nothing.

Also, for muscle building, I offer the following: Invalid Link Removed

Also, proteins have the potential to be insulinogenic and thus, reduce protein breakdown PWO.
 
And conversely, many do not like high carb diets. For me personally, I felt rubbish. So subjective measures mean nothing.

Also, for muscle building, I offer the following: Invalid Link Removed

Also, proteins have the potential to be insulinogenic and thus, reduce protein breakdown PWO.

For me my diet is best for gaining weight at 30g over body weight for carbs and 30-50g under body weight for cutting if I do add carbs otherwise I need to keep carbs under 60
 
I gotta agree with Jiigz on this. I believe the saying a calorie is a calorie is simply overly simplistic. The body reacts differently to different inputs, hence supplementation, pre workouts, trans fats being pretty much outlawed etc.

It's only common sense that cutting out or exacerbating the metabolic pathways triggered from a macronutrient such as carbs would have a profound internal effect beyond just calories in, calories out.

Now, can you debate explicitly whether the fat burning makes a real-world difference? Sure. But the fact is that not only is there a difference in how your body reacts is not only relevant, but still valid to those wanting to optimize lifestyle for ones goal
 
Viewing weight loss as a calories in vs. calories out equation is grossly over simplified and ignores the downstream metabolic consequences some nutrients have plus it also assumes you have absolute control over energy intake and expenditure, which we do not.
 
Viewing weight loss as a calories in vs. calories out equation is grossly over simplified and ignores the downstream metabolic consequences some nutrients have plus it also assumes you have absolute control over energy intake and expenditure, which we do not.

Correct
Micronutrients have to be the #1 factor considered REGARDLESS of caloric intake. I think that is the #1 downfall of people with cals in vs cals out. They dont consider vitamins/minerals as their #1 aspect towards reaching their caloric goal

NOW granted when you cut this is VERY limited and the amount you get comes down to satisfcation with higher density of foods such as veggies, fruits, protein as your bulk of intake because of restriction and overall satiety in aspect.

People when in a bulking phase will get carried away and use many different things but the factor should be WHOLE FOODS #1

Minimums have to be met.
 
Correct
Micronutrients have to be the #1 factor considered REGARDLESS of caloric intake. I think that is the #1 downfall of people with cals in vs cals out. They dont consider vitamins/minerals as their #1 aspect towards reaching their caloric goal

NOW granted when you cut this is VERY limited and the amount you get comes down to satisfcation with higher density of foods such as veggies, fruits, protein as your bulk of intake because of restriction and overall satiety in aspect.

People when in a bulking phase will get carried away and use many different things but the factor should be WHOLE FOODS #1

Minimums have to be met.

I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at. I'm actually non-keto lower carb (~100g carbs per day) which suits me fine given that I tend to err towards meat products anyway.
The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet
 
I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at. I'm actually non-keto lower carb (~100g carbs per day) which suits me fine given that I tend to err towards meat products anyway.
The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet

I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal :) I likes my oatmeal too :p
 
I do agree that WRT weight loss than there is no special formula; high carb and low carb work just as well as each other as long as protein needs are kept high which is what you were getting at.
The only thing I can state is that to lose weight implies a calorie deficit and to gain weight implies an calorie excess but judging this on Atwater factors is problematic; i.e. nuts are often touted to be high calorie sources but they actually provide less energy than stated on the packet

EXACTLY. Protein and fat have to be met regardless of goal (Cutting or bulking) but again some people thrive off higher fat and some dont. Some get bogged down, some get less performance, some have less energy, and they feel crappy. Same with some on higher carbs. Again the body is not a textbook, everyone is different in their approach on what they find works best for them.

The only thing we can do is take what we READ and what we see work with others, apply it, trial and error, and proceed forward on what is OPTIMAL for us.
Nuts in general i feel are very overrated, especially dieting. The satisfaction of a few nuts is nothing. I would much rather have some PB or avacado, or something that has a bit more volume . especially because omega 3's are very hard to reach when in a deficit and omega 6's/9's are always over abused by most individuals in a bulking phase where as other micronutrients from fat sources are never really met. Some people dont get enough DPH/EPA in general (from their fish oil supp or under dose it)

But again, everyone likes different sources and what suits them. There is no cookie cutter plan out there ever, its always changing/evoloving on what works for people and its always being tested with new things year in and year out on what it takes for that individual to look and perform their best.
 
I like the 125-175 range myself. Hell even with 100g that's four bowels of oatmeal :) I likes my oatmeal too :p

Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal :) again everyone is different!
 
Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal :) again everyone is different!

Well yeah its also based upon the individual. I was just making a statement about myself.
 
Also depends on the individual, their weight, amount of NEAT outside the gym, Amount of cardio they are doing etc and what their caloric intake will be. Some never go below 200g and can get shredded, some have to go down to say 50g to get shredded. No one size fits all approach ya know?

I like my potatoes much more than oatmeal :) again everyone is different!

Potatoes all day!!!
 
Subd
 
Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

"I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

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Carb cycling with a weekly Skipload FTW.

More here;
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Ehem...anyone up for some Paleo diet discussion? I just happened to bump into a former friend of mine who said:

"I will get shredded! I'm doing CrossFit 5 times a week and a Paleo Diet! My Cleans and Thrusters will get me 6pack abs in no time!"

<img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=88632"/>

If I had a dime every time I heard a person say that... I'd have like 50 dimes.
Fun fact: I have yet to see anyone say that and produce a 6 pack.


I don't see any evidence to support paleo. I get its easy to monitor your diet when you cut out certain things, but I don't see why macros need to come from certain places. I think it's ease of adherence is an easy thing to follow that cuts out a lot of bad stuff, but I don't think it's optimal or better than simply tracking macros and making good decisions (ie 200g carbs from a sweet potato vs pancakes)
 
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^^^

Interesting read. According to my history professors, Paleolithic man initially lived on a diet predominately consisting if animals crap, roots, and bark. 100% truth.
 
If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.
 
If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.

Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking :) in that case I train while eating a Big Mac
 
Great for both purposes. Unless dirty bulking :) in that case I train while eating a Big Mac

"Doesn't make a difference"
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However this one is really interesting...

"This study for the first time shows that fasted training is more potent than fed training to facilitate adaptations in muscle and to improve whole-body glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity during hyper-caloric fat-rich diet."
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Is this a nail in the coffin for fed training advocacy during a cut?
 
If the table is open I'd like to address fasted vs non fasted training for weight loss, and perhaps weight gain- as long as the distinction is made.


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Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.
 
The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

My professors hate me
 
The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

My professors hate me

Probably Dr. Volek
 
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Could post a lot more off Martin's site to show research to back it (there is 10 articles under Fasted Training on the right hand side)

I have found my best workouts fasted, but again i make sure my last meal of the day is a larger carb meal to fuel me for morning training.

Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

"Summing Up the Research Findings

• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

References available: Invalid Link Removed
 
The Solution. .. You watch a lot of biolayne who is the Dr he cited for having a substantial amount of evidence for ketosis in his carbohydrate YouTube? I'm arguing with my professor and doing homework. Dr kolvek or some ****. off the top of your head, if not no worries.

My professors hate me

Dr Jacob Wilson? The guy he does the Podcasts with? check out the Muscle College Radio Series.
Regardless Layne is the last to advocate keto unless its necessary to get the last few pounds off. He is totally against it and always including carbs if possible and keeps them as high as possible year round.
 
Although there is some pertinent information there, none of them are strictly fasted vs non fasted protocols in terms of body composition measurements.

Here are the brief cliff notes (for people who don't want to read the research) from Alan Aragon;

"Summing Up the Research Findings

• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects."

References available: Invalid Link Removed

^^^ Thats a cardio article bro. Not training.
These are comign from Martin's Post's Regarding fasted training.

Go to his website and go to the fasted cardio tab on the right hand side, he has 10 articles.
 
I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? Invalid Link Removed

Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: Invalid Link Removed

Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): Invalid Link Removed
Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: Invalid Link Removed
Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : Invalid Link Removed
Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: Invalid Link Removed
No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: Invalid Link Removed

Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?
 
Yes, the references are for cardio training but they have pertinence because they compare fed vs fasted states which is what AdonisBelt's question was about.

Referencing a study during Ramadan has less relevance if it isn't comparing it to a control group.

Here is another study on Ramadan which although flawed, at least compared fed vs fasted groups. Invalid Link Removed
 
I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? Invalid Link Removed

Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: Invalid Link Removed

Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): Invalid Link Removed
Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: Invalid Link Removed
Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : Invalid Link Removed
Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: Invalid Link Removed
No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: Invalid Link Removed

Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?

This is why science is great and all, but how many studies will we truly find on average gym rats or individuals who train hard? As for most of the things we will debate in here that are hot topics not really any.. Nor will people really invest in it. So you can only take it with a grain of salt. Look at tons of the individuals on martin's site who do train fasted (and not endurnace athletes) their progress and success speaks for itself. Now granted they are following an IF diet and none of them will be loaded up on juice or performance enhancing supplements which may alter intake and how p-ratio results may vary, but again there is some backing to his methods and also fasted training via personal results (and some of his scientific links)

Again You can only figure out through trial and error what works for you, ive found it very beneficial for me. I have better focus, energy and drive in a fasted state , and again i set up my nutrition to fuel morning workouts by eating a large carb meal prior to bed Via the biorythm diet.

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-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

-- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

-- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

Really we can debate science here and there, but this will be an individual topic IMO.
 
I've never really believed fasted training to be any more beneficial than non-fasted but it is hard to find data on lean athletes with resistance training. Obese women anyone? Invalid Link Removed

Data that fasted is beeter than non-fasted: Invalid Link Removed

Interesting one on fasted and carb fed training, albeit in endurance athletes (i.e. LISS cardio): Invalid Link Removed
Another on fasted training in endurance training, i.e. LISS cardio: Invalid Link Removed
Avoiding carbs peri workout beneficial (i.e. being carb fasted)? : Invalid Link Removed
Prior fasting may stimulate anabolic response: Invalid Link Removed
No change between fasted and fed resistance based training: Invalid Link Removed

Beneficial for endurance, not quite so much for resistance it would seem?

In resistance training it is worth factoring in the effect on actual work output.

This is where resistance training vs a protocol like LISS would differ because performance would be a bigger factor.

I tend to agree with the bolded sentence though.
 
In resistance training it is worth factoring in the effect on actual work output.

This is where resistance training vs a protocol like LISS would differ because performance would be a bigger factor.

I tend to agree with the bolded sentence though.

Endurance athletes IMO Should be flooding their systems all day long given the amount of exert of calories and how much they will truly have to intake. At the minimum they should be using intra-workout carbs if they were to do something fasted with BCAA's.
 
So here is the question:

given that there is data to support increased fat oxidization, insulin sensitivity, protein synthesis etc. (aka all the "stuff" we here into bodybuilding want) during a fasted state while resistance training, and almost opposite effects seen in endurance exercise, am I screwing myself by doing fasted cardio in the morning prior to working out?

It would appear that this conversation is heading in this direction, suggesting i do cardio after training fasted and then eating; this is bizarre seeing as Lyle McDonald explicitly suggests fasted cardio for ridding fats once under ~10% bf; not to mention via high intensity intervals- which are obviously at high VO2 percentages.
 
So here is the question:

given that there is data to support increased fat oxidization, insulin sensitivity, protein synthesis etc. (aka all the "stuff" we here into bodybuilding want) during a fasted state while resistance training, and almost opposite effects seen in endurance exercise, am I screwing myself by doing fasted cardio in the morning prior to working out?

It would appear that this conversation is heading in this direction, suggesting i do cardio after training fasted and then eating; this is bizarre seeing as Lyle McDonald explicitly suggests fasted cardio for ridding fats once under ~10% bf; not to mention via high intensity intervals- which are obviously at high VO2 percentages.

Then you get aragon's and Laynes stance on fasted cardio not being necessary at all

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aragon:

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Person A. Makes claim and cites scientific research as evidence
Person B. Criticizes the citations and offers counter research to refute original claim
Person A. Science is no longer valid and decisions should be made off anecdotes. Makes nonsensical remarks like "the body is not a textbook" and generally dismisses the ability of science being used as evidence

WTF.. how do you make a claim based on science and then dismiss science when faults in your claim are pointed out

Im unsubbing from this before I explode
 
Then you get aragon's and Laynes stance on fasted cardio not being necessary at all

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aragon:

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I personally do believe fasted cardio is good. That's why I'm at a loss now. Lol.
 
Person A. Makes claim and cites scientific research as evidence
Person B. Criticizes the citations and offers counter research to refute original claim
Person A. Science is no longer valid and decisions should be made off anecdotes. Makes nonsensical remarks like "the body is not a textbook" and generally dismisses the ability of science being used as evidence

WTF.. how do you make a claim based on science and then dismiss science when faults in your claim are pointed out

Im unsubbing from this before I explode

Good point.
 
This is why science is great and all, but how many studies will we truly find on average gym rats or individuals who train hard? As for most of the things we will debate in here that are hot topics not really any.. Nor will people really invest in it. So you can only take it with a grain of salt. Look at tons of the individuals on martin's site who do train fasted (and not endurnace athletes) their progress and success speaks for itself. Now granted they are following an IF diet and none of them will be loaded up on juice or performance enhancing supplements which may alter intake and how p-ratio results may vary, but again there is some backing to his methods and also fasted training via personal results (and some of his scientific links)
Again You can only figure out through trial and error what works for you, ive found it very beneficial for me. I have better focus, energy and drive in a fasted state , and again i set up my nutrition to fuel morning workouts by eating a large carb meal prior to bed Via the biorythm diet.

Invalid Link Removed

-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the evening, you induce "metabolic inflexibility" – effectively disrupting metabolic rate and increasing fat storage, risk of obesity, elevated insulin levels and a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

-- By ingesting high-fat meals in the morning and afternoon, you increase metabolic flexibility – setting the metabolism for higher fat oxidation throughout the day. As LPL enzyme (splits up circulating fatty acids and makes them available for storage) is higher in muscle in the AM, fats are more likely to be burned off as energy or stored as lipid droplets within the muscle (IMTG).

-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the morning, the same “metabolic inflexibility” occurred, and the metabolism is fixed towards glucose oxidation instead of fat oxidation. This also increases fat storage from meals eaten during the day, and higher-fat meals eaten in the evening in particular.
-- By ingesting high-carb meals in the evening, you get a bump in the natural leptin signal (occurring 3-6hrs after going to sleep), essentially increasing fat burning through the night and the rest of the following day.

-- Insulin sensitivity is higher in all cells early in the day, including fat cells, but decreases towards the afternoon and evening, thus partitioning carbs ingested at this time more efficiently into muscle vs. fat. This is obviously further improved by training the muscle that day.

-- Eating carbs will increase the feel-good neurotransmitter serotonin and make you sleepy. What better time to have your carbs than a couple of hours before bedtime so you can fall into a deeper, higher-quality sleep

Really we can debate science here and there, but this will be an individual topic IMO.

One thing quick before I go on; that article is very long yet only has 6 references to back it up, most of which are obscure. In fact, many of his claims aren't even referenced at all. He even wrote this:
In order to get to the point and already having spent a couple of hours trying to find the correct study references – I gave up and encourage interested readers to e-mail me for further study references

So does this mean that he wrote the article BEFORE finding studies? So the article isn't based off findings but rather he wrote the article THEN tried looking for sources which backed his standpoint? I'd be very careful when people conduct research and article writing this way

Secondly, Martins subjects are good at all, but I wasn't stating or making claims that 'gains' cannot be made when training in a fasted state, but rather if there is any difference whatsoever in protein synthesis or the anabolic response, for which I can find no evidence. So in saying that, i'm not overly sure where you were headed with the bolded part.

Are you claiming that there anabolic response to fasted training is superior to someone who trains in the fed state?

I should also go back and question the second source I posted; it stated that fasted training led to a decrease in bodyweight and body fat whereas fed training only resulted in a drop in bodyweight. Is it claiming that all the weight lost was lean tissue when performing aerobic training in the fed state? Doubtful.
 
Are you claiming that there anabolic response to fasted training is superior to someone who trains in the fed state?

I should also go back and question the second source I posted; it stated that fasted training led to a decrease in bodyweight and body fat whereas fed training only resulted in a drop in bodyweight. Is it claiming that all the weight lost was lean tissue when performing aerobic training in the fed state? Doubtful.

I dont think the training is going to impact the bodyfat or weightloss. the overall caloric deficit would be the major factor regarding that. Depletion training (high rep/hypertrophy) training could aid in glyocgen depletion, but who is to say that is really the key factor to fatloss or fatloss for training. We have seen in real life that hypertrophy training while dieting can be a disaster and cause to a ton of muscle loss if one is not training heavy when they do diet. So it is doubtful as much science as we do read i doubt we have one specifically on bodybuilders or that does compare the fed to fasted state for our exact research we are trying to find since most reserach is done in either 1) Rats, 2) overweight subjects, or 3) People who have messed up caloric intakes to not really match their goal which skew the end result.

Anabolic response:

Insulin Response and Nutrient partitioning:
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"GLUT4: Glucose transporter type 4 is a protein responsible for insulin-regulated glucose transport into the muscle cell. It increased by a whopping 28% in F but only 2-3% in C (not mentioned in the paper but this is my estimate based on the graphs). This partly explains why F saw superior results in regards to glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity.

Since GLUT4 is triggered by AMPK, which is increased when glucose availability is low, i.e. during fasted training, one would assume the GLUT4 increase could then be explained by an increase in AMPK. This was found to be true: AMPK increased by 25% in F, which correlated closely with the increase in GLUT4 content."

Metabolic enzymes: Very fittingly, the same group of enzymes that were investigated in the study I covered in "Fasted Training Boosts Endurance and Muscle Glycogen" were looked at here.

Interestingly, changes in citrate synthase and HAD, two markers for fuel-utilization efficiency, were not different between F and C. However, two other important markers for glucose and fat metabolism, FAT/CD36 and CPT1, were increased by ~30% in F. C saw no increase at all.

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Body composition: Now this is very interesting. Despite overfeeding the subjects with 1000 calories or more, F only gained 0.7 kg. From a scientific standpoint, this is deemed insignificant. That is, the gain could likely be attributed to chance or, very likely, fluctuations in body weight due to increased muscle glycogen. This lack of weight gain in F could not be explained by the training regimen. They were still overfed by 15-20% when accounting for the extra activity. This left the subjects with a theoretical surplus of 650 calories per day, on average, which should have resulted in weight gain equivalent to ~3.5 kg after six weeks.

What about C? They gained 1.4 kg, twice as much as F, despite doing the same amount of exercise and consuming the same amount of calories and macronutrients.

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More from Martin:

"The main findings of the present study were that: training in an overnight-fasted state enhances storage of muscle glycogen compared to training in the fed state; skeletal muscle of men and women respond differently in terms of oxidative activity to training in the fed and overnight-fasted state; and peak VO2 and peak power improved more when training in the fasted state compared to the fed state."

Questioning the dramatic increase (+54.7%) in muscle glycogen in the fasted group, the researchers were not able to find an answer based on unexpected confounders or behaviors between groups. Muscle biopsies were taken at the same time and there were no difference in diet in between groups.

"...it is highly likely that the differences in glycogen stores between groups reflect the training intervention and not exercise timing or pre-biopsy diet."

Moreover, these results are in line with a prior study that found similar results for fasted training.

"Importantly, our findings correspond to that of De Bock et al. confirming that training whilst circulating CHO levels are low increases the capacity to accrue glycogen in the trained muscles."

What might be the reason for the different effects between genders on oxidative enzymes? As mentioned previously, differences in fuel utilization. Males rely less on intramuscular triglycerides and fatty acids and more on glucose, while females burn a higher percentage of fat at any given exercise intensity. But why fed state training would then be more beneficial for females when it comes to "oxidative adaptation" requires further investigation.


More on fasted training and protein synthesis:

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In this study, subjects were split into two groups that were trained on two occasions separated by three weeks. The three-week rest period between sessions served as a "washout" period, in order to make sure that the prior session didn't interfere with the results obtained during the second test.

The workouts were fairly basic whole-body sessions: 3 x 8 in seven movements such as bench press, overhead press, curls and leg press.

One of the sessions (F) were performed on an empty stomach after an overnight fast.

The other session (B) was performed in the fed state. Subjects were given a breakfast of 722 kcal composed of 85% carbs, 11% protein and 4% fat, and training was initiated 90 minutes after the meal.

After the weight training session, both groups rested for 4 hours. At the one- and four-hour marks, muscle biopsies and blood tests were obtained . Participants were also also given a recovery drink to sip each hour during the rest period.

Results revealed that the F session had twice as high levels of p70s6k in comparison to the B when measured at the one-hour mark post-workout. Other myogenic transcription factors were also higher at this point, though not quite as pronounced as p70s6k. At the four-hour mark, the differences between the two groups had evened out.

Among other things, increased levels of p70s6k may lead to a faster transport of amino acids into the muscle cell membranes, which should lead to a more rapid and potent anabolic response to post-workout nutrient ingestion. The effects seen on the other myogenic signaling mechanisms could also affect muscle growth through other pathways.
 
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