PWO Vasoconstrictors Worth It?

[El Hefe]

Most pre workout supplements are vasoconstrictors which are counterproductive to building muscle.

I used pre workout supps for years, often switching every 6-12 months as they'd seem to lose their edge. But I started to wonder if the extra energy was worth it.

About a year ago I quit and a month or so later I adjusted. Workouts have improved, natural pumps are back (actually better) and my gains have improved.

Never again will I go back to limiting my muscle building with vasoconstrictors.

Of course if building muscle is not of interest or priority, and cutting is, by all means, constrict away.

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

you can cut or bulk with a vasodialating pre workout product i.e RPM, enhanced, uncut, ignite 2 (non-DMAA) just to name a few.

caffiene is great at 10mg per/kg BW or a nitrate enriched pre workout like enhanced.

Your short changing yourself man...enhanced and Anabeta Elite/alphamine will KNOCK YA SOCKS OFF

 

[El Hefe]

I have a half used tub of Alphamine at the house - about a year old.

I'm not familiar with the other supps you mentioned, but your right in that there are in fact some vasolidating supplements that could be used.

But it seems that most guys are using vasoconstrictors which physically interfere with building muscle.

 

[El Hefe]

It also appears that many of these supps mix vasolodators with vasoconstrictors which may look good for marketing purposes but is somewhat counterproductive in nature.

 

[Spaniard]

I think there is a good possibility that you're confused.

Caffeine for instance is generally thought of as vasoconstricting however, in a workout setting it is not

- Valdez

 

[Rodja]

How exactly does a vasoconstrictor limit hypertophy?

 

[El Hefe]

I think there is a good possibility that you're confused.

Caffeine for instance is generally thought of as vasoconstricting however, in a workout setting it is not

- Valdez

I understand caffeine is a constrictor. Although I don't think moderate amounts (cup of coffee in the morning, iced tea for lunch, etc) throughout the day are an issue.

 

[El Hefe]

How exactly does a vasoconstrictor limit hypertophy?

A short explanation would be that in attempting to reach hypertrophy - your in part attempting to increase blood/nutrient flow and pressure to targeted muscle group(s). Constrictors limit the capacity of that process.

Wiki - Muscle hypertrophy involves an increase in size of skeletal muscle through an increase in the size of its component cells

Wiki - vasoconstriction is the narrowing of the blood vessels resulting from contraction of the muscular wall of the vessels, particularly the large arteries and small arterioles.

 

[Herm]

So What components specifically are constrIctive? The caffeine? And does this mean your basically saying that a caffeine free pre workout would be more beneficial?

 

[Rodja]

A short explanation would be that in attempting to reach hypertrophy - your in part attempting to increase blood/nutrient flow and pressure to targeted muscle group(s). Constrictors limit the capacity of that process. Wiki - Muscle hypertrophy involves an increase in size of skeletal muscle through an increase in the size of its component cellsWiki - vasoconstriction is the narrowing of the blood vessels resulting from contraction of the muscular wall of the vessels, particularly the large arteries and small arterioles.

The "pump" aka increased fluid to the target muscle has little to do with the hypertrophic process. You're cherry picking information with your definitions and making a false presumption based off of these definitions (Texas sharpshooter fallacy). There's a phrase called majoring in the minors and these is a nice example of that in that you're focusing on trivial aspects instead of big picture items: nutrition and training. The pump, at most, lasts only 2 hours post-training and is a small amount of time when you look at how long the recovery and hypertrophic process takes.

 

[Spaniard]

I wasn't sure if he was going to take the bait.....

And then he did lol

- Valdez

 

[El Hefe]

So What components specifically are constrIctive? The caffeine? And does this mean your basically saying that a caffeine free pre workout would be more beneficial?

I'm saying most stimulants are constrictive. And I'm not telling anyone what do to do, rather I'm interested in and respect different opinions and train of thought. My personal opinion is that HIGH levels (not a diet coke an hour before workout) of caffeine pre workout may be counterproductive.

But I'm not necessarily targeting caffeine as there is a laundry list of stims that people are using for pre workout.

I recently had a conversation (part of what prompted this post) with a friend of mine who is a bodybuilder and also part owner of a supplement company. It was evident and well known to him for years that vasoconstrictors and muscle building can be somewhat counter to each other. Understand that neither of us is saying that one makes the other impossible. But, pre workout products with stimulants are their largest sellers and actually carry the business.

Another friend with us in the conversation was/is a competitive power lifter who also sees the issue. However, he's used pre workout stimulants for so long that he really doesn't feel like he can complete an intense workout without them. His view is not uncommon. I've talked with others who feel that their increase in energy allows them to do more good in the gym, thus overshadowing any limiting affect the constrictors may pose.

I disagree, but value his opinion also.

 

[OnionKnight]

preworkouts also has vasodialators in them as well to counteract that effect. and you have to remember, some stms are site dependant on vasoconstriction. yohimbe for example is a vasodialator in the pelvic region so you dont end up with stim dick like 1,3d does

think, how many preworkotus contain agmatine, cit malate, or nitrates in them nowdays? pretty much all of them. then theres the ones that are still holding onto arginine...

 

[El Hefe]

The "pump" aka increased fluid to the target muscle has little to do with the hypertrophic process. You're cherry picking information with your definitions and making a false presumption based off of these definitions (Texas sharpshooter fallacy). There's a phrase called majoring in the minors and these is a nice example of that in that you're focusing on trivial aspects instead of big picture items: nutrition and training. The pump, at most, lasts only 2 hours post-training and is a small amount of time when you look at how long the recovery and hypertrophic process takes.

I understand what your saying.

Also, my sole focus was not on the 'pump', rather the muscle building process. Blood and nutrient flow is important during a workout and each and every single day after - through the entire hypertrophic process.

However, I may be missing something. Please explain to me how a vasoconstrictor improves the muscle building process. Because the point of this thread is to hear/read these views.

I may not be right, but what I've shared is right for me. I've weight trained since I was 15 (34 now). I cycled through my 20's and 30's. I also spent years on pre workout stimulants. Hell, I grew up on the old Speed Stack style ephedrine drinks. More recently I've tried products like Jacked, C4 Extreme, Aphamine, etc. I only mentioned this to say that I've worked out under a variety of conditions. But various friends over the years have shared there views on vasoconstriction with me which eventually started to make sense. My biggest barrier was overcoming my bias in the matter due to my reliance of pre workout supplements.

As I mentioned earlier, since I've changed my pre workout regimen, I feel that the muscle building process has improved. My intake before and during workouts now may consist bcaa's, carbs, creatine, protein, ribose, etc.

 

[El Hefe]

OnionKnight - "preworkouts also has vasodialators in them as well to counteract that effect."

I agree, and that's part of my point. They use two ingredients to counteract each other. I would rather have one effect or the other depending on my goals.

 

[Rodja]

I understand what your saying.

Also, my sole focus was not on the 'pump', rather the muscle building process. Blood and nutrient flow is important during a workout and each and every single day after - through the entire hypertrophic process.

However, I may be missing something. Please explain to me how a vasoconstrictor improves the muscle building process. Because the point of this thread is to hear/read these views.

I may not be right, but what I've shared is right for me. I've weight trained since I was 15 (34 now). I cycled through my 20's and 30's. I also spent years on pre workout stimulants. Hell, I grew up on the old Speed Stack style ephedrine drinks. More recently I've tried products like Jacked, C4 Extreme, Aphamine, etc. I only mentioned this to say that I've worked out under a variety of conditions. But various friends over the years have shared there views on vasoconstriction with me which eventually started to make sense. My biggest barrier was overcoming my bias in the matter due to my reliance of pre workout supplements.

As I mentioned earlier, since I've changed my pre workout regimen, I feel that the muscle building process has improved. My intake before and during workouts now may consist bcaa's, carbs, creatine, protein, ribose, etc.

You're vastly overestimating how much actual construction occurs from stims. They don't choke off bloodflow by any stretch of the imagination and can actually assist in body composition (depending on the actual compound). Nobody said that they increase hypertrophy; you added that yourself. What I am saying is that stims have proven PED qualities and can increase the intensity of a training session, which will far outweigh any decrease in bloodflow. Again, majoring in the minors.

 

[Blergs]

Most pre workout supplements are vasoconstrictors which are counterproductive to building muscle.

I used pre workout supps for years, often switching every 6-12 months as they'd seem to lose their edge. But I started to wonder if the extra energy was worth it.

About a year ago I quit and a month or so later I adjusted. Workouts have improved, natural pumps are back (actually better) and my gains have improved.

Never again will I go back to limiting my muscle building with vasoconstrictors.

Of course if building muscle is not of interest or priority, and cutting is, by all means, constrict away.

a cup of coffee and some creatine, taurine and ALCAR and im set.

 

[El Hefe]

Rodja - "vastly overestimating how much actual construction occurs from stims. They don't choke off bloodflow"
I simply said that while constrictors don't make muscle building impossible, they do run counter.

I agree that for some people the stim's effects can outweigh the decrease in bloodflow. Especially those who have trouble maintaining intensity in the gym.

But building muscled doesn't come easy or happen overnight. It's something that many of us obsess over and consume ourselves with. Sometimes, every little thing counts or adds up. We are intensely focused on many things throughout our schedule, diet and workout. Intensity in the gym and bloodflow are both important. Many of us notice if something has slightly impacted our strength, intensity, stamina, bloodflow, fullness, recovery, etc. We then try to identify, focus on and exploit these advantages or disadvantages.

For me personally, I don't have trouble completing my workouts (at least not now - I did in the past) with intensity. Therefore, I might focus on other things including the flow of nutrients and oxygen to the muscles.

In my opinion, this is similar to the Clen or T3 debates. Does Clen and T3 help assist in cutting fat? Yes. Can they be counterproductive to building muscle? Yes. Can someone use Clen or T3 and still build muscle? Yes. Both are worthwhile to discuss.


El Hefe,
Majoring in the Minors

 

[OnionKnight]

^^^ dude u know youre debating protein synthesis with one of the biggest, strongest, and most knowledgable dudes on this forum?

 

[El Hefe]

I have respect for Rodja and many others here at Anabolic Minds. I also read and pay attention to many of his posts.

But having a low post count doesn't disqualify me from sharing my thoughts. Nor does it make me a noob.

It is also not my intention to personally challenge or debate anyone. Rodja did not start this thread and then I joined in to challenge and/or discredit him.

I started this thread to share my thoughts and experiences and to also get some other points of view - which is happening.

 

[lronFist]

Clen and ephedrine are certainly not vasoconstrictors.

 

[OHlympia]

Ok so bottom line are you saying that stimulants have vasoconstriction properties and that is counter productive to the vasodilation effects of a PWO? Which has an effect on nutrient delivery ? Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you are saying so I can share my 2 cents.

 

[Rodja]

Rodja - "vastly overestimating how much actual construction occurs from stims. They don't choke off bloodflow"
I simply said that while constrictors don't make muscle building impossible, they do run counter.

I agree that for some people the stim's effects can outweigh the decrease in bloodflow. Especially those who have trouble maintaining intensity in the gym.

But building muscled doesn't come easy or happen overnight. It's something that many of us obsess over and consume ourselves with. Sometimes, every little thing counts or adds up. We are intensely focused on many things throughout our schedule, diet and workout. Intensity in the gym and bloodflow are both important. Many of us notice if something has slightly impacted our strength, intensity, stamina, bloodflow, fullness, recovery, etc. We then try to identify, focus on and exploit these advantages or disadvantages.

For me personally, I don't have trouble completing my workouts (at least not now - I did in the past) with intensity. Therefore, I might focus on other things including the flow of nutrients and oxygen to the muscles.

In my opinion, this is similar to the Clen or T3 debates. Does Clen and T3 help assist in cutting fat? Yes. Can they be counterproductive to building muscle? Yes. Can someone use Clen or T3 and still build muscle? Yes. Both are worthwhile to discuss.


El Hefe,
Majoring in the Minors

This is nothing like a clen/T3 debate; you're making a claim and using fallacious reasoning to support it. You kinda contradicted yourself once you brought up the point about how long it actually takes substantial hypertrophy to occur, yet continue to pound this gavel saying that stims/vasoconstrictors stifle hypertrophy. Hell, you contradicted yourself by pointing out that your pumps are back and then said you're not focused on that aspect. If it wasn't a focus, then why point it out? You're swaying in this thread and, again, have nothing to back your claim of vasoconstrictors limiting muscle growth and, no, your Wiki definitions are far from any evidence.

There are a myriad of factors that are going to have greater influence on hypertrophy (e.g. progression, frequency, volume, etc.) and how much increased bloodflow that results from a training session is not one of primary ones. Simply feeling that you've improved the environment doesn't provide anything that can be tested and/or replicated and it also sounds as though you've added substrate to your sessions, which provide a different response that is not an appropriate comparison compared to pre-training supplements.

 

[El Hefe]

Ok so bottom line are you saying that stimulants have vasoconstriction properties and that is counter productive to the vasodilation effects of a PWO? Which has an effect on nutrient delivery ? Is that what you're saying? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you are saying so I can share my 2 cents.

I'm saying some are vasoconstrictors. Those that are, constrict by definition.

 

[El Hefe]

Clen and ephedrine are certainly not vasoconstrictors.

Whether clen and ephedrine are vasoconstrictors has been debated. It's been debated because it's been important for bodybuilders over the years to find out which of their supplements are constrictors.

I won't weigh in on clen and ephedrine. Individuals can study them on their own and make their own determination.

 

[El Hefe]

a cup of coffee and some creatine, taurine and ALCAR and im set.

Thats a good pre workout program. Note that taurine and carnitine are vasodilators.

As for the caffeine: Valdez mentioned it being thought of as a constrictor but not in a workout setting.

Caffeine starts out as a constrictor but soon after dilates the blood vessels.

 

[El Hefe]

Rodja - We're going back and forth, but I'm not sure we're actually going anywhere.

"This is nothing like a clen/T3 debate"
I think it's similar in the sense that no person takes a substance that might be catabolic unless it has positive effects that might outweigh the negatives. Similarly, no person would take a constrictor for the purpose of building muscle if it also did not possess positive effects like energy that might outweigh the constriction.

"Hell, you contradicted yourself by pointing out that your pumps are back and then said you're not focused on that aspect."
Pumps are not the goal - building muscle is. However pumps can be part of the process. I mentioned pumps in conjunction with a few other things. - most notably that my gains had improved.

"If it wasn't a focus, then why point it out?"
Because many people turn to pre workout stims for energy and pumps. So I thought it was noteworthy to mention that since discontinuing pre workout supplements containing vasoconstrictors, I've regained my energy and natural pumps. I've also notice that my muscles are fuller, strength gains have improved along with measurements. So once again, pumps are only a part of the equation.

"You're swaying in this thread ....Simply feeling that you've improved the environment doesn't provide anything that can be tested"
If it appears that I'm swaying, I apologize. I must not be communicating/typing clearly. My thoughts and reasoning on this subject have remained constant. I believe vasoconstrictors (which may be a broad term because there are varying degrees and dosages) can hinder muscle growth because of the physical nature of their action. I also came to this belief through the information of numerous people who I consider credible on the subject. Not because I quit using them and experienced positive results. Now to be clear, discontinuing use and seeing positive results has further solidified my opinion on the subject.

But I also realize that no two people are the same. I'm not going to come on here and tell everyone to use my cycle, my diet, my pre workout routine, my workout, etc. What works for me has worked for many and will probably work for some more. But it wont work for everyone.

 

[mr.cooper69]

My head hurts. OP, I fear you have no idea what you're talking about!

 

[mr.cooper69]

Whether clen and ephedrine are vasoconstrictors has been debated. It's been debated because it's been important for bodybuilders over the years to find out which of their supplements are constrictors.

I won't weigh in on clen and ephedrine. Individuals can study them on their own and make their own determination.

b2-agonists are vasodilators

 

[mr.cooper69]

Thats a good pre workout program. Note that taurine and carnitine are vasodilators.

As for the caffeine: Valdez mentioned it being thought of as a constrictor but not in a workout setting.

Caffeine starts out as a constrictor but soon after dilates the blood vessels.

Caffeine doesn't "start out" as anything. It vasodilates skeletal muscle, period

 

[mr.cooper69]

Vasoconstriction/vasodilation is achieved to accelerate waste removal and deliver oxygen. Bloodflow may be limiting during periods when metabolic demand exceeds supply (high intensity exercise), but it is certainly not limiting at rest when skeletal muscle hypertrophy is occurring.

 

[El Hefe]

Vasoconstriction/vasodilation is achieved to accelerate waste removal and deliver oxygen. Bloodflow may be limiting during periods when metabolic demand exceeds supply (high intensity exercise), but it is certainly not limiting at rest when skeletal muscle hypertrophy is occurring.

So are your saying that vasoconstriction during workouts is good or insignificant?

Do you see any benefit to using vasodilators (rather than constrictors) before work out?

 

[El Hefe]

Caffeine doesn't "start out" as anything. It vasodilates skeletal muscle, period

According to the National Institutes of Health, caffeine is considered a vasoconstrictor.

But it also dilates. It almost falls in it's own category.

I understand that many of the actions of each stimulant are not exactly cut and dry. Some may do both, while others may simply perform one action in a targeted area.

 

[El Hefe]

b2-agonists are vasodilators

I didn't say they were or weren't. I said it's been debated, and it has. Over the past 10 years there has been discussion on both sides within the forum community.

Google results may have changed today - but in the past, you could find discussions and seemingly credible references calling clen a constrictor and a dilator. Clen isn't the only thing there seemed to be confusion over. Ephedrine is also called a constrictor on numerous reference and medical sites.

So I'm not here to set the record straight. I'm not an authority on what is or isn't. It seems that nearly every substance has to be studied.

 

[OHlympia]

So are your saying that vasoconstriction during workouts is good or insignificant?

Do you see any benefit to using vasodilators (rather than constrictors) before work out?

There is a significant benefit to vasodilation during workouts. Bottom line = more blood to the muscle.
And vasoconstriction in terms of caffeine is insignificant for training purposes as it also, correct me if I'm wrong, caffeine mobilizes fatty acids from fat or intramuscular triglycerides by increasing circulating epinephrine levels. Therefore increases fat oxidation which spares muscle glycogen. Helping endurance along with reducing the neuronal activation threshold, making recruitment for muscle fibers easier?
Therefore the insignificant vasoconstriction from caffeine is far out weighted but it's positive benefits for workouts.

 

[El Hefe]

agreed.

 

[Clemenza]

Most pre workout supplements are vasoconstrictors which are counterproductive to building muscle.

I used pre workout supps for years, often switching every 6-12 months as they'd seem to lose their edge. But I started to wonder if the extra energy was worth it.

About a year ago I quit and a month or so later I adjusted. Workouts have improved, natural pumps are back (actually better) and my gains have improved.

Never again will I go back to limiting my muscle building with vasoconstrictors.

Of course if building muscle is not of interest or priority, and cutting is, by all means, constrict away.

Not only are they counterproductive, they are sometimes dangerous.

Super setting, hiit, all gets your heart rate up enough on it's own... The last thing you want is construction.

Stick with Enhanced and Alphamine. No constricting stims. Plus the pump is much better

 

[mr.cooper69]

So are your saying that vasoconstriction during workouts is good or insignificant?

Do you see any benefit to using vasodilators (rather than constrictors) before work out?

Vasoconstrictors of skeletal muscle tissue would be counterproductive preworkout. Thankfully, there are no such products on the supplement market that can achieve this to a significant enough degree to override the autoregulatory metabolic mechanism of skeletal muscle vasodilation​ during exercise. This occurs independent of autonomic nervous system activity

 

[mr.cooper69]

According to the National Institutes of Health, caffeine is considered a vasoconstrictor.

But it also dilates. It almost falls in it's own category.

I understand that many of the actions of each stimulant are not exactly cut and dry. Some may do both, while others may simply perform one action in a targeted area.

It depends on the tissue. We're not talking about cerebral tissue, we're talking about skeletal muscle.

 

[Spaniard]

Vasoconstrictors of skeletal muscle tissue would be counterproductive preworkout. Thankfully, there are no such products on the supplement market that can achieve this to a significant enough degree to override the autoregulatory metabolic mechanism of skeletal muscle vasodilation during exercise. This occurs independent of autonomic nervous system activity

Very patient Coop

 

[Rodja]

There is a significant benefit to vasodilation during workouts. Bottom line = more blood to the muscle.
And vasoconstriction in terms of caffeine is insignificant for training purposes as it also, correct me if I'm wrong, caffeine mobilizes fatty acids from fat or intramuscular triglycerides by increasing circulating epinephrine levels. Therefore increases fat oxidation which spares muscle glycogen. Helping endurance along with reducing the neuronal activation threshold, making recruitment for muscle fibers easier?
Therefore the insignificant vasoconstriction from caffeine is far out weighted but it's positive benefits for workouts.

More blood to the muscle doesn't really mean a damn thing in terms of the efficacy of a training session.

Vasoconstrictors of skeletal muscle tissue would be counterproductive preworkout. Thankfully, there are no such products on the supplement market that can achieve this to a significant enough degree to override the autoregulatory metabolic mechanism of skeletal muscle vasodilation​ during exercise. This occurs independent of autonomic nervous system activity

Fraking thank you!

 

[El Hefe]

Vasoconstrictors of skeletal muscle tissue would be counterproductive preworkout. Thankfully, there are no such products on the supplement market that can achieve this to a significant enough degree to override the autoregulatory metabolic mechanism of skeletal muscle vasodilation​ during exercise. This occurs independent of autonomic nervous system activity

Thanks for the intelligent reply.

 

[El Hefe]

Mr. Cooper69-
"Vasoconstrictors of skeletal muscle tissue would be counterproductive preworkout. Thankfully, there are no such products on the supplement market that can achieve this to a significant enough degree"

Rodja-
"You're vastly overestimating how much actual construction occurs from stims."

I respect both of your points and input.

I’ll share a couple of things and then let this thread go on it’s way.

With virtually everything related to bodybuilding, diet, cycles, workouts, etc. I try to remember that what works for me and what I feel, benefit or react to, may be unique and different. As it is with many of you.

For example: How many people have varying responses to creatine, tribbulus, yohimbe, etc.? We could probably pick any popular supplement and still find users with varying responses, all the way to opposite ends of the spectrum. There are some stims I respond to and some that I don’t. There are also many natty test boosters that I don’t respond to. But of course that doesn’t mean that some may not benefit greatly.

On the same note, it’s true that some may respond more or less to constriction and dilation products than others. I know people who are respected and accomplished in the field who respond positively to dilators and negatively to constrictors. I also know people don’t. I also know people who could care less and perhaps have not even given it any considerable thought. I’ve also found that I respond much more favorably to dilators. Do I have scientific evidence or studies to prove that? No. But I’ve experienced it, as have others. There are probably also people on this board who might find that they respond positively to a vasodilator product like ‘Enhanced’ as opposed to a more constrictive product.

I’ve also noticed that the time I’ve spent on constrictors has been less productive. Now I’m not wrong or misinformed to say that. However, I would be wrong, misinformed and ignorant to say that everyone on this board would respond identically. As you would also be wrong to say that no person could ever respond in such a way that I’m describing.


OHlympia -
"There is a significant benefit to vasodilation during workouts. Bottom line = more blood to the muscle."

I definitely understand what your saying.

Do pumps equal more muscle?
We’ll, I guess the answer is no. But in that case, I guess food doesn’t exactly equal more muscle either. I understand that there is a lot more to hypertrophy than just pumps. But pumps resulting in blood and oxygen flow to the muscles is still extremely important. I’m not a scientist or a doctor, but I’d like to share a thought or two on pumps as it relates to my personal experience.

Me and the guys I used to train with had a saying back in the day – You Grow Into Your Pumps.

This essentially meant that if your arms were 17” cold and 18” pumped – you were on your way up. It may not be long before you reached 17 ¼” cold and soon after 17 ½”. But sometimes guys have had trouble obtaining good pumps. We also found it to be true that if your arms were 17” cold and only 17 ¼” pumped – it could take what would seem like forever to actually reach 17 ¼” cold.

I found this to be true through my years in the gym (now it’s a Man Cave gym). I started in my teens with maybe 15” arms. Heck, they could’ve even been in the 14’s. Now, 15+ years later my arms are around 18.5” cold. 18.5” might seem ok to some, but in reality 3.5” in 15+ years is not very impressive. Thats largely because I had numerous years of training and experimenting with different styles of training that weren’t as effective as others. I also experimented with different supplements. I realized that during some of the less effective periods I was using supplements that were vasoconstrictive in nature. I sometimes went long periods of time continuing a program that did not yield superior or effective pumps because that was not my sole focus. Unfortunately, measurements didn’t change much during those periods, even though progress may have been made in terms of strength.

To me, it’s kind of like bulking and pushing weight on the scale. If your not eating enough during the day to add weight to the scale, don’t expect the scale to magically move up. Pounds don’t materialize out of thin air.

So, while there is a lot more to the hypertrophy process that just pumps, I believe it’s also hard to build muscle without them.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I fully understand what you're saying, but try not to dwell on extremes. Yes, too many vasodilators can hinder performance via hypotension, and too many vasoconstrictors can choke cerebral bloodflow (again, muscle won't be significantly affected because bloodflow to skeletal muscle is metabolically based, whereas vasoconstrictors work through an autonomic nervous system mechanism). For more information on the mechanism of exercise-induced skeletal muscle vasodilation:

Adenosine-dependent vasodilation requires direct interaction with adenosine receptors, resulting in smooth muscle relaxation via elevation in cAMP (antagonizing Ca2+). NO is not involved in the process. This is an example of metabolic autoregulation of bloodflow:

Exercising cardiac or skeletal muscle releases adenosine into the local environment
Adenosine continues to build up as metabolic demand on the muscle increases
Adenosine agonizes local vascular smooth muscle adenosine receptors, increasing cAMP and causing relaxation
Bloodflow to the regions increases as a result of vasodilation
Greater bloodflow results in a "washing away" effect of local metabolites including adenosine
Agonism of adenosine receptors is thus removed once the exercising tissue is adequately perfused
If demand for bloodflow rises again, the process repeats itself

In other words, this is purely autoregulatory and intrinsic to the tissue. There are also myogenic and flow-based theories of autoregulation, but NO is not​ an example of autoregulation per se.

 

[Daycrawler]

I fully understand what you're saying, but try not to dwell on extremes. Yes, too many vasodilators can hinder performance via hypotension, and too many vasoconstrictors can choke cerebral bloodflow (again, muscle won't be significantly affected because bloodflow to skeletal muscle is metabolically based, whereas vasoconstrictors work through an autonomic nervous system mechanism). For more information on the mechanism of exercise-induced skeletal muscle vasodilation:

Took the words out of my mouth....

Origin makes the gains increase ten fold