Mind Steriods or Noots
- Thread starter tuberman
- Start date
xsiv1
New member
Ani should always be taken with some healthy fats anyways. I take mine with Krill Oil caps if I can't take it with a meal because of it's quick absorption. Ani also has an anxiolytic component to it as well not evidenced in the likes of Piracetam or Prami. It does stack decent, in my experience with 10mgs Noopept but I rarely take it first thing in the morning. Normally, I'd dose it at 1500-1600mgs with some fish oils or a meal and that's about it for the day. I'll cycle on and off various noots every few months. If you haven't tried 500mgs of a dopamine precursor like L-Phen/ or acetyl l-tyrosine + 450mgs artichoke extract and 10mgs coleus forskolii, it's relatively cheap and I, like others, have had significant results with it in terms of focus, alertness, cognition and overall mood. Google Long Term Potentiation and Artichoke Extract and it should take you to some info on this stack...gaining quite the popularity even by longtime noot users. I picked it up just based on user experiences and because it was cheap. Already had the dopamine precursor anyways. Worth the money and I'm on day 8 or 9, used first thing in the morning with my medium coffee. Nice effect.
kisaj
Legend
That is very common, and for responders, should be an almost immediate onset. It is just how Ani works in the brain. I'd say it is untouchable when it comes to public speaking and social interaction because it just pulls thoughts together and removes hesitation to find words or thoughts when talking. I have not experienced any overly noticeable effect with learning new material, but recall of data already in your brain is where it shines.
Outside Backer
Well-known member
artichoke extra nice
xsiv1
New member
Yup. Here's a bit on the stack...chemically induced long-term potentiation or the CILTEP Regimen. Simple, yet, thus far..effective. Edit: Sucks, I need 150 posts to share a link? lol. Oh well. If you google that, you should come across the correct info.
tuberman
Active member
xsiv,
I read through a couple of threads on the coleus forskolii + artichoke + other things. The coleus forskolii is the prime supplement here. I may check out new info on it. Some people said it can get too strong, others suggested it worked well for a while then became negative in some way or another. The artichoke was a compromise as another stronger sup was used earlier.
xsiv1
New member
Yes, you're right in a number of things. For one, I always cycle off my noots. I was on 2 months of Noopept and decided to just come off for a month or so despite some noticeable and positive effects. I don't take the aforementioned CILTEP regimen on the weekends as I know that the dopamine precursors can also lose their ooomph. Artichoke extract seems to have less sides than some of the other things people tried from what I've read. I know Coleus Forskolii has it's own beneficial effects but I think the dopamine precursor, combined with some caffeine help make me more alert and focused in the morning regardless..and the effects seem to last longer than any of the stims I've tried in the past although i've never tried any pharm or illicit stims (barring coke in my younger days...never quite cared for it..tG) There are a number of supps you can use to inhibit PDE4 but many carry their own host of adverse effects. Anyways, it's not like a blow your mind nootropic thus far, but I obviously have to use it for a couple months to give it a fair shot at what it's supposed to do. I haven't found it to be too strong and I'm kind of sensitive to L-Tyrosine in that it makes me irritable. I've, in the past, had much more success (when trying to boost mood only) with DLPA (go figure). I'll switch up between L-Phenylalanine (500mgs) or 350mgs Acetyl L-Tyrosine just to see if I notice anything different. Tomorrow, instead of the caffeine, I will try 200mgs of Sulbutiamine instead. Anyways, since I can't post the link, I found this summation of the CILTEP regimen to be nice.
The stack works by inducing long-term potentiation, which is an enhancement of signal transmission between two neurons that results from stimulating both of them at the same time. LTP is a major underlying factor in synaptic plasticity, and is considered one of the major cellular mechanisms that underlies learning and memory. [1]
The need for synaptic activation of LTP can be bypassed by taking supplements which raise cAMP concentrations, combined with a PDE4 inhibitor to prevent the depletion of cAMP. [2][3]
Dopamine has also been implicated in playing a role in LTP. Through PDE4 inhibition and increased cAMP concentrations, this stack regimen improves the effectiveness at dopamine functioning more effective at triggering learning and memory processes. The normal chemical dynamics of the dopamine system are preserved, which prevents down-regulation of the dopamine receptors. [4]
The Regimen
Forskolin (5 – 15 mg) – Forskolin works to increase levels of cAMP. The dosage listed is the amount of the active ingredient in an extract. So if you purchase 200 mg capsules of 10% extract, each capsule will have 20 mg of Forskolin.
Artichoke Extract (~ 500 mg) – Artichoke extract is a fairly selective PDE4 inhibitor at recommended doses. While this regimen was being refined many other PDE4 inhibitors were tried, however most were found to have adverse side effects.
Phenylalanine or Other Dopamine Precursor (~500 mg) – Research has shown that increased intracellular cAMP increases the rate of dopamine synthesis. [5] In addition, the cascade effect that leads to induced LTP requires dopamine receptor activation. [6] For this reason, you’ll want to make sure you keep your brain well stocked with the raw materials it needs to create additional dopamine. See below for possible choices. Phenylalanine is the recommended dopamine precursor to use, as it is typically well tolerated by most people. Tyrosine is another decent choice, through it has caused adverse side effects in some.
Optional Stimulant – One hole in this regimen is that it doesn’t directly provide a boost to drive or executive function. Many have plugged this gap by taking a stimulant along with the regimen. A moderate dose of caffeine (~ 100 mg) is the safest choice in this regard, and synergies well with the regimen because it blocks increased PDE4 activity due to endogenous adenoside acting on the A2A receptor. [7]
Sulbutiamine is another safe choice to improve motivation and drive. It is a nootropic which provides boosts to motivation and mental energy without the side effects typically associated with traditional stimulants. Amphetamines work well with this stack, but keep in mind that this regimen dramatically potentates stimulants. If you typically take 20 mg of adderall, for example, don’t exceed 5 mg when using this regimen.
Using The Regimen
This regimen is somewhat stimulating, so to avoid insomnia it is best taken first thing in the morning, before eating. Don’t exceed the recommended doses by too much, as fatigue can set in after continuous use at high doses.
It is also recommended that you cease taking other supplements when you start this regimen, then slowly introduce them back to gauge if they will alter its effects.
Cautions
When purchasing Forskolin, look for the highest potency extract as possible. Non-active plant matter in Forskolii has been shown to increase liver enzymes at high doses. Though it doesn’t appear to cause any permanent damage, a high potency extract will lack the plant matter responsible for this. Also, supplementing with Milk Thisle is a good idea if you want to be cautious.
Don’t exceed the recommended doses. Doses of Forskolin exceeding 15 mg have been shown to cause fatigue after days to weeks of continuous use. If you experience this side effect, cease the use of the stack for 3 days, and consume 8 mg of Galantamine for each of those 3 days. You may then resume taking the stack.
Artichoke extract is less selective in its PDE inhibition at higher doses, and could potentially cause sexual side effects at very high doses due to PDE5 inhibition. Drugs such as Viagra work by inhibiting PDE5.
Early in the original thread, Hasperidin was considered as a possible addition to the stack. Unfortunately, after a few days of use it caused daytime drowsiness and other adverse side effects. It was determined to not be a good addition to the stack.
Whether or not combining ‘racetams with this stack is still up for debate. Many state that a ‘racetam could be a good addition because this stack only targets long-term memory. It is universally accepted that Aniracetam does not mix well with this stack, however.
For more nootropic regimens, and to learn how to use nootropics, mental exercise, and lifestyle changes to maximize your cognitive performance, check out our free cognitive enhancement ecourse. Sign up and get the first chapter of Building Brainpower for free!
To learn more about this regimen, read the original thread in which it was created.
Cited Sources
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16672292
jn.physiology.org/content/91/5/1955.long
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21984943
ht tp://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20969573
ht tp s://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17064352
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057772
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9282956#
The stack works by inducing long-term potentiation, which is an enhancement of signal transmission between two neurons that results from stimulating both of them at the same time. LTP is a major underlying factor in synaptic plasticity, and is considered one of the major cellular mechanisms that underlies learning and memory. [1]
The need for synaptic activation of LTP can be bypassed by taking supplements which raise cAMP concentrations, combined with a PDE4 inhibitor to prevent the depletion of cAMP. [2][3]
Dopamine has also been implicated in playing a role in LTP. Through PDE4 inhibition and increased cAMP concentrations, this stack regimen improves the effectiveness at dopamine functioning more effective at triggering learning and memory processes. The normal chemical dynamics of the dopamine system are preserved, which prevents down-regulation of the dopamine receptors. [4]
The Regimen
Forskolin (5 – 15 mg) – Forskolin works to increase levels of cAMP. The dosage listed is the amount of the active ingredient in an extract. So if you purchase 200 mg capsules of 10% extract, each capsule will have 20 mg of Forskolin.
Artichoke Extract (~ 500 mg) – Artichoke extract is a fairly selective PDE4 inhibitor at recommended doses. While this regimen was being refined many other PDE4 inhibitors were tried, however most were found to have adverse side effects.
Phenylalanine or Other Dopamine Precursor (~500 mg) – Research has shown that increased intracellular cAMP increases the rate of dopamine synthesis. [5] In addition, the cascade effect that leads to induced LTP requires dopamine receptor activation. [6] For this reason, you’ll want to make sure you keep your brain well stocked with the raw materials it needs to create additional dopamine. See below for possible choices. Phenylalanine is the recommended dopamine precursor to use, as it is typically well tolerated by most people. Tyrosine is another decent choice, through it has caused adverse side effects in some.
Optional Stimulant – One hole in this regimen is that it doesn’t directly provide a boost to drive or executive function. Many have plugged this gap by taking a stimulant along with the regimen. A moderate dose of caffeine (~ 100 mg) is the safest choice in this regard, and synergies well with the regimen because it blocks increased PDE4 activity due to endogenous adenoside acting on the A2A receptor. [7]
Sulbutiamine is another safe choice to improve motivation and drive. It is a nootropic which provides boosts to motivation and mental energy without the side effects typically associated with traditional stimulants. Amphetamines work well with this stack, but keep in mind that this regimen dramatically potentates stimulants. If you typically take 20 mg of adderall, for example, don’t exceed 5 mg when using this regimen.
Using The Regimen
This regimen is somewhat stimulating, so to avoid insomnia it is best taken first thing in the morning, before eating. Don’t exceed the recommended doses by too much, as fatigue can set in after continuous use at high doses.
It is also recommended that you cease taking other supplements when you start this regimen, then slowly introduce them back to gauge if they will alter its effects.
Cautions
When purchasing Forskolin, look for the highest potency extract as possible. Non-active plant matter in Forskolii has been shown to increase liver enzymes at high doses. Though it doesn’t appear to cause any permanent damage, a high potency extract will lack the plant matter responsible for this. Also, supplementing with Milk Thisle is a good idea if you want to be cautious.
Don’t exceed the recommended doses. Doses of Forskolin exceeding 15 mg have been shown to cause fatigue after days to weeks of continuous use. If you experience this side effect, cease the use of the stack for 3 days, and consume 8 mg of Galantamine for each of those 3 days. You may then resume taking the stack.
Artichoke extract is less selective in its PDE inhibition at higher doses, and could potentially cause sexual side effects at very high doses due to PDE5 inhibition. Drugs such as Viagra work by inhibiting PDE5.
Early in the original thread, Hasperidin was considered as a possible addition to the stack. Unfortunately, after a few days of use it caused daytime drowsiness and other adverse side effects. It was determined to not be a good addition to the stack.
Whether or not combining ‘racetams with this stack is still up for debate. Many state that a ‘racetam could be a good addition because this stack only targets long-term memory. It is universally accepted that Aniracetam does not mix well with this stack, however.
For more nootropic regimens, and to learn how to use nootropics, mental exercise, and lifestyle changes to maximize your cognitive performance, check out our free cognitive enhancement ecourse. Sign up and get the first chapter of Building Brainpower for free!
To learn more about this regimen, read the original thread in which it was created.
Cited Sources
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16672292
jn.physiology.org/content/91/5/1955.long
h t t p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21984943
ht tp://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20969573
ht tp s://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17064352
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057772
htt p://w w w.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9282956#
RockNRollaX
New member
Heck of a post xsiv, I wonder why you say Aniracetam doesn't mix well here, is it too AMPA stimulation?
RockNRollaX
New member
Ah nice, yea I love Ani too. I typically use the weekends as a break from it, the head sharpening + anxiolytic quality makes it perfect for my work.
tuberman
Active member
Hey guys,
I've read Eric Kandel's "In Search of Memory," and Jeff Hawkin's "On Intelligence" over the last few days. Kandel is one
of the main scientists working on LTP, and Hawkins is an engineer with a facination for brain science who has taken his
fortune made from mobile computing devices, and started his own brain institution in 2002. Hawkins has created a theory
where he places the hippocampus at the top rung of the neocortex for consolidating memory. Good theory, as it makes
many things work together that wouldn't fit without this idea.
It is the hippocampus that has "place" cells that probabably help us put things in a spacial context. Hawkins adds that the
hippocampus also has a time relating ability too. Without a space and time holding ability we cannot create initial long
term memories. The hippocampus processes these memories for one to three years and then sends them back to the areas
in the neocortex that first worked with them.
In simple terms: Tom Hanks as the Captain in "Saving Private Ryan," replied, after Ryan told him he couldn't remember
his brothers' faces, "You need a context." When Ryan remembered the barn episode, he remembered the faces of his
brothers.
The interesting thing about the hippocampus is it is both capable of making new axions and strengthening synapes, and it
can actually grow new neurons by using stim cells. The rest of the neocortex can strengthen synapes, with new axions and
branches, but there is no proof that neurons can be replaced. The hippocampus also has the highest death rate of neu rons
under all conditions, but especially bad conditions such as depression or extreme stress. LTP goes on in the hippocampus
obviously.
I'm interested in much more than LTP though as the whole area of "Attention" is a study onto it's own. William James had
some interesting things to say about it over a 100 years ago. Also when the mind goes into "search mode" or has clues but
needs to discover modulating territory to solve difficult "Aha!" type answers, and how playfulness effects attention and the
mind. Eric Kandel said that attention is one of his greatest interests (as of 2007) when he wrote "In Search of Memory" He would use his typical bottom-up methods of looking into hippocampus place cells first.
I've read Eric Kandel's "In Search of Memory," and Jeff Hawkin's "On Intelligence" over the last few days. Kandel is one
of the main scientists working on LTP, and Hawkins is an engineer with a facination for brain science who has taken his
fortune made from mobile computing devices, and started his own brain institution in 2002. Hawkins has created a theory
where he places the hippocampus at the top rung of the neocortex for consolidating memory. Good theory, as it makes
many things work together that wouldn't fit without this idea.
It is the hippocampus that has "place" cells that probabably help us put things in a spacial context. Hawkins adds that the
hippocampus also has a time relating ability too. Without a space and time holding ability we cannot create initial long
term memories. The hippocampus processes these memories for one to three years and then sends them back to the areas
in the neocortex that first worked with them.
In simple terms: Tom Hanks as the Captain in "Saving Private Ryan," replied, after Ryan told him he couldn't remember
his brothers' faces, "You need a context." When Ryan remembered the barn episode, he remembered the faces of his
brothers.
The interesting thing about the hippocampus is it is both capable of making new axions and strengthening synapes, and it
can actually grow new neurons by using stim cells. The rest of the neocortex can strengthen synapes, with new axions and
branches, but there is no proof that neurons can be replaced. The hippocampus also has the highest death rate of neu rons
under all conditions, but especially bad conditions such as depression or extreme stress. LTP goes on in the hippocampus
obviously.
I'm interested in much more than LTP though as the whole area of "Attention" is a study onto it's own. William James had
some interesting things to say about it over a 100 years ago. Also when the mind goes into "search mode" or has clues but
needs to discover modulating territory to solve difficult "Aha!" type answers, and how playfulness effects attention and the
mind. Eric Kandel said that attention is one of his greatest interests (as of 2007) when he wrote "In Search of Memory" He would use his typical bottom-up methods of looking into hippocampus place cells first.
MANotaur
Well-known member
Wow good info. Please explain what ltp is. ..I've never heard this acronym...sorry Im an andrologist not a nueroscientist
tuberman
Active member
Man, Read xsiv1's post on Ciltep a few posts up. It will explain LTP also or Long Term Potentiation. There is much more to it though than using herbs to create cAMP and to inhibit PDE4. And there are a number of other ways of looking into sharpening the mind.
xsiv1
New member
Entirely correct. This regimen has given me enhanced libido and boners, enhanced my alertness and focus, and I'm seemingly remembering things from the past (all positive thank G) that I haven't given much thought to I suppose. For eg, The other day I was speaking to my parents who brought up a trip to Europe from 1985. I'm 40 right now. I distinctly remembered what I ate the day I got sick for a week on the Adriatic coast and when I was finally able to go to the washroom because for that week I couldn't. Very weird. Other things I've noticed is and improvement in mood and verbal fluency. This is after 20+ days on it. I've started taking my aniracetam after lunch with some good fats in it and thus far haven't noticed ANY kind of cognitive disturbance. I take the CILTEP stack first thing in the morning with my coffee. I dig it for now. My next racetam I'm going to try since I've received it in the mail the other day is pramiracetam.
The last thing I did this afternoon since it was Friday was dose with 500mgs Quercetin and then 30 minutes later, 500 mgs of PEA followed by a small coffee on the way to Best Buy after work. Very pleasant feeling but not inebriating, didn't cause nausea and I could use a relatively small dose of PEA and have it last for 2-3 hrs. Unheard of when taking PEA alone. I realize it's an 'occasional' and sporadic thing to do...but for a Friday afternoon, it was actually pretty good.. I was already pretty happy that it was the weekend, and this just solidified it that much more. More on this later...it's sexy time here.
tuberman
Active member
Quercetin is a stronger PDE4 inhibitor than artichoke according to the threads I read earlier. I wonder how this may stack with AndroDrive as I still have one bottle left, plus two Dermacines. I'd try it alone first or with aniracetam.
Ani seems to be a relaxing racetam. Relaxed intelligence is good for searching or seeking modes of thinking and alpha states, also a different kind of playfulness flows than the more aggressive stim playfulness one gets from dopamine highs. If LTP heightening has a stim effect, that is only a small part of it. It does seem to be enhanced by a moderate dose of stims.
I purchased Eric Kandel's book and Jeff Hawkins' book because they come at brain science from two different directions. Eric's is a bottom-upward (from cells, simple biology, and neurochemistry to brain function), and Jeff's is top-downward (form an overall theory of brain/intelligence and see how the parts work). When searching for answers it is good to combine the bests sources of each of these to get answers.
I may buy Kandel's 1760 page text for graduate level neurophysiologists in it's 2012 edition, but not quite ready for that yet. I will read Kandel's "The Age of Insight," next as I have that already. He has a rather large chapter in there about top-down processing, where he states that most of the time people have to deal with details for survival, and that is bottom-up processing.
RipdnTxs
Member
I got in some more Aniractam from the same place Ive ordered before. My Doc. has taken me off Paxil and put me on low dose Prozac to help with coming off Paxil (awful by the way) and am planning on coming off Prozac under his care in the near future and try a natural approach to get my anxiety and depression under control. The first time I tried the Ani/AGPC while on Pax. the first week or so it was great and then seemd to fade the longer I took the combo daily,750 Ani/500AGPC twice a day. Yesterday I took the same as before and by the end of the day I felt about as depressed as I can remember, it was not a good day. I had a good nights rest last night and seem to be feeling mentally better today, I did not take the combo today. I,m not sure why the negative reaction yesterday. Ideas !!!! anyone...
tuberman
Active member
Rip,
How long have you been on SSRIs? Ani has anti anxiety properties, but is not known to reduce depression, I believe. I really don't know much about this area, but I'm currently looking into emotional connections in the brain. Many problems seem to be around the connections between the hippocampus and the amygdala. That doesn't help you much at this point, and I'm not sure even the top scientists/pros in these areas have easy answers. Once I know more about the basics and the wiring/connections in the brain, I would like to go out and read the current papers on whats going on in the difficult area of depression. Neuron death in the hippocampus is often involved in depression, and the major factor in that is too much of the wrong kinds of stress.
The obvious thing is how long you've been on SSRIs and how strong the doses. All of these drugs can have sides that can lead to depression, in spite of the fact that they are supposed to help depression.
You might try aerobic exercise several times a week if you are not already, and mindfulness meditation (belly breathing, general awareness, and relaxed state). And I'm not recommending it, as I have not tried it yet, but the CILTEP protocol that xsiv1 talked about above is known to strengthen synapses. Aerobic exercise is known to use stim cells to create new fresh neurons in the hippocampus.
Mindfulness meditation is a long-term solution, so I don't usually talk much about it, but it is all about rewiring the brain to a better state. OCD, thought to be a brain wiring problem from birth, has been cured by mindful meditation in a fair number of cases. There is a book on Amazon on using Mindfulness to overcome depression called, "The Mindful Way Through Depression."
xsiv1
New member
I'm in the same boat as you. Over a decade, we had a family tragedy where my only/younger brother passed away of a rare cancer after a nearly year long battle. He was in his 20's and at the pinnacle of health. Anyways, long story short, I fell into a major depression and, at first, the most pronounced symptoms were chronic insomnia. After going through several of the newest SSRIs, only a tricyclic helped in the end. Prozac wired me, Luvox, Wellbutrin, nearly everything. Elavil worked but.. God, the side effects were horriblle. Later on, I ended up on Paxil and have tried to ween myself off once or twice. <Brain zaps aren't fun> Nowadays, I know that Prozac is used to get someone off Paxil as it stays in your system much longer. Kind of like weening a Xanax addict using Klonopin or Valium. If I only knew what I know now about natural supplementation, I'd have avoided SSRI's at all costs. That's neither here nor there now. I'm still on Paxil (20mgs before bedtime) and exhibit no signs of depression nor any side effects from it..haven't for a while. BUT, the absolute truth of the matter is that SSRI's are known to cause PERMANENT changes in brain chemistry. A lot of people continue to live with anhedonia, dysphoria and sexual dysfunction (whether it's non-existent libido or ED) on a long-term basis. I believe there's sites dedicated to this very thing. My work is demanding, and I have a young family so that my responsibilities outweigh when I can attempt Paxil cessation. Put it this way, at this point, I'll get around to it. I continue to function at a high cognitive level at work, have good relationships, have gotten in good cardio/muscular shape and sleep well too so I can't justify killing myself with the pain that is withdrawal at this point. I still deal with intermittent anxiety now and again but it's mostly mood that I'm trying to improve/enhance since I can go from happy for the most part, to flat, to irritable as hell. Nutrition and exercise help but I suspect that it's a natural component to my own body's chemistry and I deal with it. Both vigorous cardio and weights 5 days a week help me out a lot in the mood department.
I can offer you some advice I think. One of the reasons I avoid Quercetin as much as I can, is because it exhibits some weak MAOi properties which are contraindicated while using an SSRI. I've used various compounds that technically interfere with Paxil but I've been on it so long that I haven't come close to experiencing any type of Serotonin syndrome. There are a number of natural supplements you can use to help you with anxiety, sleep, and even depression. Unfortunately, you have to be careful with the compounds that exhibit serotonin-enhancing effects while on any AD. You could get away with Rhodiola use I'd think. I use a cocktail called Stress-Assist by futurebiotics and it contains some Ashwaghanda, Rhodiola, B vits and, imo, most importantly a quality L-theanine product. Many people don't feel the effects of L-theanine or they're too subtle, but, Suntheanine specifically, works! It helps to block excessive glutamate (your body's chief excitatory neurotransmitter) and it also assists in upregulating Gaba receptors. It can present some nootropic properties when combined with caffeine but, in essence, it promotes the brain's alpha waves which are responsible for a relaxed, yet alert state. Bacopa Monnieri is another one that displays nootropic properties, doesn't downregulate gaba, and is an effective anxiolytic. Honokiol extract is another one that I have experience with and know to be effective. You'll find an abundance of novel and not so novel compounds that'll work for you - this I guarantee. What you're going through should never have happened. If the FDA, big Pharma, pdocs, and even to an extent, family physicians exercised their due diligence (to prevent harm), they'd have taken you off Paxil at the first signs of remission. Unfortunately, for me, many doctors didn't know enough about them and they're not the only ones to blame. We need to be the primary advocates for our own health as well.. Keeping apprised on information/research for any pharmaceutical medication you're put on is pretty important. What I do, is I mix up my regimens and keep my body guessing for the most part. Aniracetam is fine and should help you cognitively speaking but it's anxiolytic action isn't that pronounced. For an extensive list of helpful anti-anxiety compounds, you could look to this thread: longecity . org/forum/topic/54028-treating-anxiety-safely-effectively/ or google it since I can't post links yet.
Word of caution. Scienceguy is a bright dude, but I don't think he has a good grasp on the value of pharmaceutical drugs (when they're needed - which I can still respect) and the role Gaba agonists can play when treating people effectively. The key with any gaba agonist is eliminating chronic use or abuse. Used sparingly, they make for wonderful anxiolytic compounds. I'd disregard his DO NOT TAKE list, only if you're not prone to addiction. Compounds such as phenibut (if you're a positive responder) make wonderful therapeutic alternatives to pharms only when used once in a while. I'd refrain from using it more than once a week..but that's me. Anyways, I know a lot about this because I've been in your shoes so-to-speak and have read hundreds of pages of information. One book that I've enjoyed reading is Eric Braverman's The Edge Effect. It's pretty good.
MANotaur
Well-known member
I know Im not much help in the line of mental health as its the blind leading the dumb hear.
I've got severe anxiety with mild depression. I was so wound up that i was always busier than a cat trying to bury ****. So much to the point to where i was diagnosed with add. Still think i have that but that's another topic.
Long story short, i got put on lexpro @ 10mg po qd. It changed my life for the better. Lexapro is an ssri but it is much better than pail or prosaic at treating both anxiety and depression.
In my journey i have discovered noots. i haven't tried them all, but i currently take prami concurrent with ny ssri and the effects are amplified tremendously. Im always able to focus. I am always happy. Not that odd happy valley kind of happy but a true feeling of happiness and calmness. I don't have the lack of feelings and emotions that many people on paxil and prozac experience. I also haven't had any sexual side effects aside from a little bit of had tIm getting off when i first started. That went away after about a week. But again, more on that later. And i don't feel like Im about to always come unglued. it really has made me a better me. I've been doin this for close to 6 months now and its been wonderfull. I still get stressed obviously. It doesn't make the stress go away, it just makes it so much more manageable and i feel like i can handle it and not be overwhelmed. It really always does give me that light at the end of the tunnel that we that suffer from gad are always searching for.
My add was originally treated with adderall as most ppl are. That obviously made my issues worse. And the sexual sides from the Lexapro haven't been anything but good. Im still hard as a rock and who doesn't like lasting 20 or 30 minutes in bed? I mean really? I love it, most importantly my wife loves it, and frankly it makes you feel pretty good that you can make peter north look like a 15 year old first timer. I say that cause many ssris (especially paxil) are notorious for offing with your sex life and Lexapro hasn't done anything but be of benefit to mine.
Hope this helps man
I've got severe anxiety with mild depression. I was so wound up that i was always busier than a cat trying to bury ****. So much to the point to where i was diagnosed with add. Still think i have that but that's another topic.
Long story short, i got put on lexpro @ 10mg po qd. It changed my life for the better. Lexapro is an ssri but it is much better than pail or prosaic at treating both anxiety and depression.
In my journey i have discovered noots. i haven't tried them all, but i currently take prami concurrent with ny ssri and the effects are amplified tremendously. Im always able to focus. I am always happy. Not that odd happy valley kind of happy but a true feeling of happiness and calmness. I don't have the lack of feelings and emotions that many people on paxil and prozac experience. I also haven't had any sexual side effects aside from a little bit of had tIm getting off when i first started. That went away after about a week. But again, more on that later. And i don't feel like Im about to always come unglued. it really has made me a better me. I've been doin this for close to 6 months now and its been wonderfull. I still get stressed obviously. It doesn't make the stress go away, it just makes it so much more manageable and i feel like i can handle it and not be overwhelmed. It really always does give me that light at the end of the tunnel that we that suffer from gad are always searching for.
My add was originally treated with adderall as most ppl are. That obviously made my issues worse. And the sexual sides from the Lexapro haven't been anything but good. Im still hard as a rock and who doesn't like lasting 20 or 30 minutes in bed? I mean really? I love it, most importantly my wife loves it, and frankly it makes you feel pretty good that you can make peter north look like a 15 year old first timer. I say that cause many ssris (especially paxil) are notorious for offing with your sex life and Lexapro hasn't done anything but be of benefit to mine.
Hope this helps man
xsiv1
New member
I should also note that you may get some great effects from the CILTEP regimen. It really keeps you focused, alert, and in a decent mood for the first half of your day. I wouldn't be surprised by these affects within the first week of it...and the plus to it - it's cheap. Worth a shot. Last thing I wanted to mention that I really think will be of some help to you...is to try Magnesium L-Threonate. 3 per day. Best magnesium supplement I've ever tried.
xsiv1
New member
May people say that Lexapro is the new gold standard in AD treatment, so if it's working for you...go with it. If your symptoms recede, I'd consider coming off it if you can and go back to the way you were prior to experiencing illness. Some people will always have anxiety, so many have to stay on med..for the vast part of their lives. That's ok too if you consider the risk:benefit ratio. Nobody wants to go through life living in misery and I don't blame them. You have to use what works for you. I believe in integrative medicine where a doctor will not be so arrogant to think they know everything or that only a script will help someone. Exercise and sound nutrition should be touted as a treatment plan (if the patient is capable) along with required medicine and/or supplementation. The problem with the supplement side of things is two-fold making it difficult for them to consider it. A) Many benefits have not been substantiated in gold standard type research studies (double-blind placebo controlled peer-to-peer reviewed etc) and, the sad fact that often what you 'think' is in a supplement, actually isn't. It's one of the reasons I like to rely on brand names AND peer-reviewed anecdotal evidence found right on the forums. I often don't go by sponsored logs unless I know the person but rather do my research to see what brands, doses and experiences others have shared through their experiences.
bioman
Well-known member
tuberman
Active member
Man,
How does Lexapro differ from the Prozac/Zoloft type SSRIs? Just currious.
tuberman
Active member
One of the new things I've found out is that the visual cortex comes close to shutting down, even when eyes are open, when the brain goes into seeking/searching mode. David Perkins, the Harvard, Learning about Learning expert, has a couple whole books dealing with search mode thinking and Aha! moments.
The visual cortex on the other hand is the most studied area of how the brain is wired and Jeff Hawkins uses that visual cortex info as his major understanding of how the brain is wired for intelligence. His approach is extremely valuable for new AI program paradigms, but it is obviously missing both affective intelligence (feelings and emotions), and search mode intelligence. He has some gloss-over explanation of how search mode intelligence works that has some truth, but probably misses main points. He just doesn't care about affective intelligence, at least at this time. Affective intelligence is extremely important to the frontal cortex though as much of the affective stuff goes back and forth to there from other regions. People missing or handicapped in these areas make lousy life decisions.
My major interest here is deconstructing a movie like "Limitless" and seeing how much is total fantasy because it just cannot be done, or conflicts that exist in the brain, as in -- if you enhance one area you may slow down another area of cognition. Yet even using cycling to keep conflicts at bay, just how much can we do at this time to enhance normal cognition. Not "Limitless" abilities, but huge improvements.
The visual cortex on the other hand is the most studied area of how the brain is wired and Jeff Hawkins uses that visual cortex info as his major understanding of how the brain is wired for intelligence. His approach is extremely valuable for new AI program paradigms, but it is obviously missing both affective intelligence (feelings and emotions), and search mode intelligence. He has some gloss-over explanation of how search mode intelligence works that has some truth, but probably misses main points. He just doesn't care about affective intelligence, at least at this time. Affective intelligence is extremely important to the frontal cortex though as much of the affective stuff goes back and forth to there from other regions. People missing or handicapped in these areas make lousy life decisions.
My major interest here is deconstructing a movie like "Limitless" and seeing how much is total fantasy because it just cannot be done, or conflicts that exist in the brain, as in -- if you enhance one area you may slow down another area of cognition. Yet even using cycling to keep conflicts at bay, just how much can we do at this time to enhance normal cognition. Not "Limitless" abilities, but huge improvements.
tuberman
Active member
I've got my work cut out for me if I'm to follow up on this. I need to understand feelings and emotions (affective cognition), and how it interacts with all the other cognitive abilities.
I've decided to concentrate on about 5 authors at this point with some others giving occasional extra info. I've read about 25% of Kandel's "The Age of Insight," and he engages art and the unconscious as part of his observations. Kandel is an art enthusiast, has an MD, and is a trained psychoanalyst. He insists on working scientifically in areas where several science disciples come together. I've read half of "The Emotional Life of Your Brain" by Richard Davidson. The book is too pop culture in some areas, but is good science in others, and it illuminates areas of the affective brain that are hard to find elsewhere. I just received V.S. Ramachandran's "Phantoms In the Brain" today. This guy is very accessible in his writing (as are the two above scientists). He is known for his innovative problem solving style using everyday tools, rather than an expensive lab, to solve brain mysteries.
Tomorrow I will receive "The Archaeology of Mind: Neuroevolutionary Origins of Human Emotions" by Jaak Pankseep. A large section of his book seems to be about the positive emotions, which are seldom explored scientifically, and he has a major focus on playfulness and seeking behavior. Great promise here, but I haven't read it yet. Jaak, like Davidson, studies almost exclusively how the affective area of the brain connect with the "higher" cognitive area, and what the results are with that connectivity.
The fifth book is "Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Johan Lehrer, and I've already read it, but shall read it again after the new resources. I have a strong respect for Johan and how he demonstrates how creativity is more than one thing, and in the end takes a lot of group interaction to reach a peak.
This should all be done in in 5-6 weeks, then I will relax and see what new understanding arrives.
I'm not overwhelmed by this at all. My dopamine neurons are salivating to get at this stuff. All these sources are highly readable.
There are a number of other books that I shall occasionally look into such as David Perkin's material on using art to instill great learning skills, yet none of the these others are central now
I've decided to concentrate on about 5 authors at this point with some others giving occasional extra info. I've read about 25% of Kandel's "The Age of Insight," and he engages art and the unconscious as part of his observations. Kandel is an art enthusiast, has an MD, and is a trained psychoanalyst. He insists on working scientifically in areas where several science disciples come together. I've read half of "The Emotional Life of Your Brain" by Richard Davidson. The book is too pop culture in some areas, but is good science in others, and it illuminates areas of the affective brain that are hard to find elsewhere. I just received V.S. Ramachandran's "Phantoms In the Brain" today. This guy is very accessible in his writing (as are the two above scientists). He is known for his innovative problem solving style using everyday tools, rather than an expensive lab, to solve brain mysteries.
Tomorrow I will receive "The Archaeology of Mind: Neuroevolutionary Origins of Human Emotions" by Jaak Pankseep. A large section of his book seems to be about the positive emotions, which are seldom explored scientifically, and he has a major focus on playfulness and seeking behavior. Great promise here, but I haven't read it yet. Jaak, like Davidson, studies almost exclusively how the affective area of the brain connect with the "higher" cognitive area, and what the results are with that connectivity.
The fifth book is "Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Johan Lehrer, and I've already read it, but shall read it again after the new resources. I have a strong respect for Johan and how he demonstrates how creativity is more than one thing, and in the end takes a lot of group interaction to reach a peak.
This should all be done in in 5-6 weeks, then I will relax and see what new understanding arrives.
I'm not overwhelmed by this at all. My dopamine neurons are salivating to get at this stuff. All these sources are highly readable.
There are a number of other books that I shall occasionally look into such as David Perkin's material on using art to instill great learning skills, yet none of the these others are central now
xsiv1
New member
Exercising the brain is still going to produce the most significant effects cognitively. Dual n Back training and sites like Lumosity have the most remarkable results in terms of efficiency. They enhance memory, improve abstract thinking and logical deduction. Combined with nootropics and other supplements, it (among other mental exercises) and regular exercise/good nutrition will optimize results for mind and body. Now, if one already exhibits some neuropathology, the question remains as to what would work best and for the most part, a lot of it is through experimentation and regular trial and error.
MANotaur
Well-known member
I really don't know tub. I know that its structure gives it a unique set of pharmacokenetics that's unique from other ssris. I also know that's its far more superior at passing the blood-brain barrier than previous generations of ssris. Its some where along lines of 95%. Which is incredibly high. Its also somehow got the unique ability to control all the nuerotransmitters, not just serotonin. By control i mean keep the three in balance and proportionate to one another. Im sure this is the bbiggest factor in its effectiveness.
How this plays into the sides...i dunno. But as with all things in life and physiology balance is key
RipdnTxs
Member
Thanks for the responses guys,thats alot to think about. The interesting thing is, the next day I took no FXT or the combo and felt great all day like I did the first time with the Ani combo. My mind felt calm and clear all day. I also take Klonipin 1mg a day, Ive been taking this for a little over two years. I have never tried Prami., so I may give this a shot in the future. In the last year I have also become the guy I used to make fun of. I hardly ever go to the gym anymore, yet I still pay my monthly dues. I also have chronic sleep apnea and after about two months of trying different masks I have finally found one that is working. The SSRIs and almost suffocating every night, I,m sure are some of the reasons I feel like a different person, as in unmotivated about most things in life. I used to live for exercise, most any kind. I gotta get up off my arse and just get started again. I now understand how hard it is to get started again......
RockNRollaX
New member
Rip, I often find that after days of somewhat heavy supp/noot use, when I take a break for a day or two those days are sometimes more relaxed and focused than the 'on' days. Many of these compounds can build up and have synergistic effects, I feel it often a case of too much of a good thing, and in fact it's the breaks that allows the balance that I think we all seek. When I stay on any one thing for too long it usually ends up making me feel run down and I need more and more.
As for the physical part where you're at. You need to let yourself off the hook. Trust me, I've been there, It's a slippery slope I know and the farther down you slide the more and more you just end up saying f-it. But it's not as hard to climb out of this as you may think. Forgive yourself of what you failed to do yesterday, last week, last month, etc. Today is always the most important day of your life. Make the decision you want to make today, and tomorrow it gets a little easier. Speak positively to yourself, it makes all the difference. Goodluck.
As for the physical part where you're at. You need to let yourself off the hook. Trust me, I've been there, It's a slippery slope I know and the farther down you slide the more and more you just end up saying f-it. But it's not as hard to climb out of this as you may think. Forgive yourself of what you failed to do yesterday, last week, last month, etc. Today is always the most important day of your life. Make the decision you want to make today, and tomorrow it gets a little easier. Speak positively to yourself, it makes all the difference. Goodluck.
kisaj
Legend
True. Don't beat yourself up over what you've been or haven't been doing and make an effort to start changing today. You can't change what is done, only improve going forward. Make no mistake that complacency and stagnation will kill the body and mind, so there is no doubt it has an effect on how you feel. Get your body physically active again- slowly, and you'll be surprised how other things start improving.
hsk
Active member
Just wanted to say this is a good thread with lots of good info. I have been looking into try noots recently due to having brain fog come on over the past year or so. I have been reading and doing as much research as I can and the main supplements I would like to try are Aniracetem, Noopept, and CDP Choline. I was thinking about a daily dosage of 750mg-1500mg Aniracetam, 20-30mg Noopept, and 500mg CDP Choline.
Is there any problem with taking everything all at once daily for convenience or should I stick with the general recommendation to split it up into 2 doses 3-4 hours apart? So maybe 750mg Aniracetam, 10-20mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and then 3-4 hours later 750mg Aniracetem, 10mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline.
I also have staple supplements that I take daily which should work well with this stack:
10g fish oil
2.5g Creatine
200mg Caffeine
1.2g NAC
200mg Na-Rala
500mg-100mg Vitamin C
1 cap Jarrow B-Right
1-2 caps Swanson's Full Spectrum E Tocotrieniols
2-2.5g Agmatine Sulfate
8-10g Citrulline Malate
20-30g BCAA's
Pre-Bed:
100mg-5htp
ZMA
3mg Melatonin
25mg L-Theanine
Regarding the Noopept specifically, I've read that this supplement can cause permanent lasting changes to the brain, and if this is the case would a low daily dosage of 10-20mg be enough to elicit such permanent improvements and changes or would a higher daily dose be needed, say 30-60mg daily?
Is there any problem with taking everything all at once daily for convenience or should I stick with the general recommendation to split it up into 2 doses 3-4 hours apart? So maybe 750mg Aniracetam, 10-20mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline first thing in the morning and then 3-4 hours later 750mg Aniracetem, 10mg Noopept, and 250mg CDP Choline.
I also have staple supplements that I take daily which should work well with this stack:
10g fish oil
2.5g Creatine
200mg Caffeine
1.2g NAC
200mg Na-Rala
500mg-100mg Vitamin C
1 cap Jarrow B-Right
1-2 caps Swanson's Full Spectrum E Tocotrieniols
2-2.5g Agmatine Sulfate
8-10g Citrulline Malate
20-30g BCAA's
Pre-Bed:
100mg-5htp
ZMA
3mg Melatonin
25mg L-Theanine
Regarding the Noopept specifically, I've read that this supplement can cause permanent lasting changes to the brain, and if this is the case would a low daily dosage of 10-20mg be enough to elicit such permanent improvements and changes or would a higher daily dose be needed, say 30-60mg daily?
xsiv1
New member
Imo, no need to go over 20mgs/day for Noopept. It does work well with Aniracetam btw. I'd consider upping my choline intake some though unless you're getting enough through your diet...but I do see that you're consuming alot of EFA's so some of that will be utilized as avoid acetylcholine depletion. Also, one thing to consider with that type of NAC dose is your intake of Vitamin C is deficient. It's usually recommended to match on a 1:1 ratio because without Vitamin C acting in it's antioxidant role, you 'may' develop kidney stones. Much more common with regular L-Cysteine where a 1:3 ratio is recommended. If it's your first time using nootropics, I'd recommend starting off with Aniracetam alone with some good fats (like after breakfast or lunch) or with some Krill Oil for it's quick absorption. You can always add the Noopept later once you assess how Ani is treating you. I personally like it for it's anxiolytic effects albeit subtle. It has a dosing curve where you feel a bit sedate and then the 2nd phase where you seem more focused. A few, like me, have reported these findings. Otherwise, you should see some nice results over time. Noopept is said to be used on a 2-3mth on period, with a month off. You'll notice when you've had enough since it's known to cause irritability or trouble sleeping over time. This happened to me at right about the 1.5 month mark. Now when I do use it, I always take the weekends off and then allow for a month off somewhere down the line.
tuberman
Active member
Thanks for the info Man.
And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.
I finished the book "The Age of Insight" by Eric Kandel, and the term insight is a bit of a pun as the second part of the book goes deeply into how the brain processes visual info. There is a lot of interesting things covered, including the things that are fuzzy about LTP, memory, and learning processes. I have to go to work, so I say more later.
xsiv1
New member
I wish I had the time to read like that but with little kids, full-time work and working out/household responsibilities, the best chance I get is when I engage in discussion on forums for an hour or so. Soon they'll be old enough to do a lot on their own but normally I'd love to read books like that. I have a couple I got on my tablet that I haven't even touched or opened. Do you have 1 or 2 you'd recommend aside from the ones I mentioned earlier as 'must reads'? I'd appreciate it.
RipdnTxs
Member
And Ripped, as the others said just get back in one day at a time. I've gotta do the same as I've taken 8-9 weeks where I've only done pushups and crunchies at work -- not exactly a full workout. I promised myself I'd start back in mid-March.
Thanks Tuberman, I go see my Doc.today to see about coming off SSRIs. I,ve been on and off for years now and after about a year of being on any of them so far, I get this unmotivated kinda emotionless sense about me. My two kids have been telling me lately, Dad ur shrinking from what U used to look like and even some people at work have asked why I have lost weight. If I stop lifting I loose weight pretty quickly. So I,m going to use all these comments and what has been suggested here to get myself motivated and start getting back to being an active person again....
Thanks Tuberman, I go see my Doc.today to see about coming off SSRIs. I,ve been on and off for years now and after about a year of being on any of them so far, I get this unmotivated kinda emotionless sense about me. My two kids have been telling me lately, Dad ur shrinking from what U used to look like and even some people at work have asked why I have lost weight. If I stop lifting I loose weight pretty quickly. So I,m going to use all these comments and what has been suggested here to get myself motivated and start getting back to being an active person again....
hsk
Active member
Thanks for the tips regarding the noots. I usually take 3-4g of fish oil in the morning with the rest of my morning supps and firstmeal of the day is always 25g of whey protein, 1 medium orange, 1/2 cup old fashioned rolled oats cooked in water with 2 frozen chicken tenderloins, and I crack 1-2 whole organic free range Omega eggs into the oatmeal/porridge once its almost done so that the yolks will still be bit runny when everything is done. I hope this will be more than enough choline for the noots I plan to take, also I plan on adding CDP Choline to my supplement staples as well so hopefully that will shore any possible choline deficiency.
I was gonna go slow and work my way up as well just to make sure I can properly gauge reaction. I plan on adding 500mg of CDP Choline to to my daily supplements for at least 2-3 weeks before starting on the Aniracetem as as you had suggested. Then I'll slowly add in the Noopept as well. I'll definitely be going slow with the Noopept since anything that makes permanent changes to my brain is something I'd want to go slow and easy on.
In your opinion though, would 20mg daily be enough to elicit the permanent changes I've read about if used regularly over a long period of time with break in between or would this be too mild of a dose?
As for dosing, would you recommend taking the 20mg Noopept all at once or would I be better off spacing it out into 2 x 10mg doses split 3-4 hours apart? Also same question for the Aniracetem?
Overall I'm looking for a mental/cognitive boost as I will need it in the coming months due to a recent offer for advancement in my career. I will need to be at my best both mentally and physically. Physically I am doing pretty good and eat a very balance and nutritious diet and work out about 4-5 times a week.
xsiv1
New member
In that case, you may want to hold off on that additional choline. Reason being is two-fold. It appears you're getting quite the supply from your diet and more choline is not good either..as it may lead to fatigue, mental fogginess and even symptoms of depression from elevated ACh for prolonged periods. I'd play it by how you feel. You see, you're getting choline from food but you're also taking quite a good dose of EFA's making up for a lot of your requirement in the doses you intend on taking. If you develop headaches after racetam/noopept, you'll know to up your choline intake. Many people say they don't even bother taking a form of choline and reap benefits of noots just as they intended because of their diets and EFA ingestion. Others take it every other day. Aniracetam has a relatively short half-life so 'it's said' that breaking up the dose is best. That is 750-800 and then repeat a 3-4 hrs later. Since it's anxiolytic for me, I tend to use my more 'activating' noots in the morning. I'm on day 30+ of the CILTEP regimen and it's really a nice stack. Alert and focused from 6:30 until about 10:30 at which point I'll either use piracetam, ALCAR, and a bit of Alpha-GPC or Noopept (10mgs) along with a protein shake, snack and some Krill Oil. I take about 3 grams of Omega 3's per day and then a capsule of Krill once or twice...always with Noopept or Aniracetam. When I was using Noopept for what seemed to be too long, for me, I had to take a break because of the irritability/sleep issues. I've tried 20mgs a number of times and for some reason, I'm content with 10mgs. I'd start low, and then work your way up. If you're utilizing a mix of noots at varying times of the day, then I'd mix it up personally. I've always been one that preferred varying regimens. You should try taking both at 2x the amount at once and also splitting the dose up to see what you like best. I generally take my aniracetam (1600mgs) at once at about 1:30pm and it makes me feel fine once it enters into the second phase (just past that initial sedation/anxiolysis point) to the focus/creativity. I like taking ALCAR in the morning with my noot of choice and sulbutiamine with my Aniracetam since I'm already taking in some fats. 200-400mgs of Sulbutiamine is all I need and I'm happy for that. Some people go up too high imo.
After you've taken a break from Noopept, I'd look into the Acetyl L-Tyrosine/L-Phenylalanine (350mgs-500mgs) + 450mgs Artichoke Extract and 10mgs Coleus Forskohlii first thing upon waking for a while. It's definitely what I'd called a mental/cognitive boost and more discernible than the other racetams barring phenylpiracetam. Even more so than Noopept. But I like Noopept and Aniracetam.
hsk
Active member
I appreciate all the advice and for sharing your experience. I definitely am looking for a more long term and mild approach to building my cognitive performance so I will be trying to get away with as low a dose for everything as possible. Also I've read the the effects of both Ani and Noopept build over time so I would assume taking them regularly is the key. Everything will come capped from SP, Aniracetem (750mg caps) and Noopept (10mg caps), so this should make experimenting with dosage easier.
RockNRollaX
New member
I would't take the sulb so late in the day..it sometimes effects my sleep even when I take it early morning.
xsiv1
New member
That's basically what I do! Now, I must tell you that there's a whole faction of people, in accordance with the existing research, that say 4.6 grams of piracetam 2X per day and higher is optimal! It's sad, but true. Makes you want to find a cheap source of piracetam or rethink its use eh? Well, for me, I've given 9-10 grams a day an honest shot, and haven't noticed much of a difference between that and 3 grams per day. In fact, once my piracetam supply is out, I'll take a break from it. Inefficient imo, but certainly still useful.
True. Assess your tolerance to it by starting 200 in the morning and then later on trying a later dose or another dose. For many like myself, who take it before 2:30, I've never noticed any detriment to sleep. ymmv.... But I like it. Subtle onset and subtle departure.
tuberman
Active member
I'd recommend " Imagine: How Creativity Works" by Lehrer, and "The Eureka Effect" by David Perkins for starters as these are fairly easy reads, yet packed with good info. They talk about learning/creativity from seldom looked into territories.
I'm just starting to read "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp, and this guy is cutting edge on affective knowledge of the MindBrain or feelings/emotions. It looks to be quite valuable to these discussions. He comes in at a different viewpoint on learning/cognition then my other sources, although there is some overlap between him and two others: Kandel and Davidson.
Jaak gets into fine points about memory and learning, breaking things down to much smaller detail than Kandel has in the two books I've read so far, yet there is a lot "between the lines" in the Kandel books. Jaak goes into how experiments for memories were carried out in labs, and suggests what may have been left out, and states what neurosciences don't know.
I would say at this point that it's probably a good idea to cycle cognitive enhancers as there is at least two modes in learning and searching for new knowledge, and even these can likely be broken down further. Also there is more than one type of LTP as full learning needs to tap into implicit LTP as well as explicit LTP. Explicit LTP is what we have been talking about on here, and it is the most important memory enhancer in the usual sense, yet implicit memory is the memory of motor skills and other unconscious functions (yes, we do have an unconscious memory) and it has it's own LTP which doesn't use the hippocampus. The whole hippocampus involvement with explicit LTP has a Wow! factor in the way it uses time and spacial context to hold long-term memories that you can consciously recall. Knowing this temporial and spacial context that the hippocampus uses is a big help to building LTP in these memories.
Panksepp's book is 500 pages and may take about 10 days or so for me to absorb.
xsiv1
New member
Heh, that 500 pages would take me about 100+ days at this point in my life. Interesting info I'd love to delve more deeply into. I'm particularly interested in compounds that increase focus and verbal fluency and others (including mental exercises) that positively affect executive functioning. My other areas of interest involve mood. I seem to have moods that are mostly flat but can go to very irritable in no time flat. I'm looking specifically at my daily nutrition as the potential culprit but somehow doubt that that's the complete answer. I've found various supplements that are doing wonders though and have been solid performers for over a year now. L-theanine (Suntheanine) is a wonderful little compound that may people write off as ineffective but it actually does quite a bit. I'll definitely look into the first two books though and appreciate the tips.
tuberman
Active member
The problem with "focus" is you usually need stims and strong stims to get powerful focus. Extra "Attention" to the world can likely be achieved other ways. This is more than just hair-spitting. Although you could get a "relaxed focus" from stuff like aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, or bacopa, but I'd call those relaxed "Attention expanders," as they seem to work by relaxing you so you can sense things you would usually filter out. We filter out more information with ordinary focus, and need to actually relax the filter to achieve expanded attention. Extreme motivation like you need during power-lifting cycles is putting blinders on, and you need to focus on "doing" what you already know, and doing it efficiently and effectively -- Stims, stims, stims. With focus, you are working well with what you knew beforehand, only small new connections are happening between ideas (but these small connects are important, and they are "creative"). Major connects between seemingly unconnected objects and ideas, always happen in a relaxed state, and even though you can be social in a "focused" or get things done state, your social IQ is more powerful when relaxed.
This is why we need to cycle these noots and stimulants, because sometimes you just need to effectively work with what you already know, and sometimes you need to relax to observe more. Verbal fluency can be promoted by focused attention, as most people already know the words and phrases they want to use so dopamine stimulated neurons would help there. Any extra connections needed would be small and covered by general motivation. Executive function is covered mainly by shear motivation too, and you, again, are not learning much new, just being effective and efficient.
The thing with lumocity is much of it is speeding up what you already know, and making cognitive motor skills more effective. I could use this, but it is more important for me to expand my explicit mental territory right now in brain science and neurology.
Having said this, things go back to experience in real life, and to "Play the whole game" as David Perkins says, I've got to do things myself. I haven't tried the explicit LTP supps yet, but I will soon, so I get a feel for how it fits in to this or creates it's own territory.
Question: I've got 20% forskolin here, so should I go for the 95% stuff or is the kind I have now good enough. I will likely use artichoke extract with it, although I do have quercetin too.
BTW, If you are anyone else has a better way of looking at these things, do not just negate me, state your own model clearly for discussion. Show how you'd improve on my model. I'm here to learn. I will keep an open mind, and everything I assume right now is very open to an overhaul. I know that reading people like Panksepp will change my paradigm on cognition as an example.
xsiv1
New member
Yes, back n' forth mental exercises work well and there's a site that has shown (for some users on longevity) increased performance directly following a dose of the CILTEP regimen. IIRC, it could be the Cambridge Sciences site somewhere. At first, you might find it too "edgy" like I did, but the edginess, if experienced at all, comes into a clearly awake, alert and focused feeling overall. Decent mood. It's different than a stim feeling even when I combine it with my coffee. I can't take it with quercetin because of a med I'm on but many have said that the 'edge' feeling of using Quercetin is too much. Ymmv here and I'd try both on varying weeks if I were you since you already have Artichoke Extract. Many have found Quercetin to work well or better than AE. Your baseline dose of forskolin should equate to anywhere between 10-15mgs. So, whatever milligram dose you have would be divided by 20 to get the true active extract figure. You have to commit to it for a little while and artichoke extract is known to work well enough for the vast majority of anecdotal reports I've been seeing. Some also go higher with the Forskohlii extract but for whatever reason, I find the common dosage outlined works well for me, and lasts at least 4-5 hrs in terms of a noticeable alertness. Sex drive has improved and so have erections. My mornings feel entirely "clear" and there's no "crash" to speak of in my case. Seemingly rapid onset and a very gradual decline.
It's funny you mention aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa. I use aniractam at 1:30pm with supporting supplements like some Krill but it's usually following a well-balanced lunch. Sparingly, I'll use Sulbutiamine a few days a week and it's a very nice combo in the afternoon. I use Magnesium L-threonate near noon and another 1 at night with some other chelated magnesium (450 total), chelated zinc (15mgs) and a bit of B6 (10-20mgs). I take Bacopa x 2 with my standard supplements at around 6 pm after dinner. I feel like, for me, I've developed the ideal 'cycle' for now. I always mix things up after 2-3 months except for my standard supplementation like vits/mins, EFAs, etc. I do realize the importance of coming off of any compounds but baseline kind of sucks tbh lol. Prior to my workouts, I do find it difficult to not want to utilize a stim of some sort since I have to keep going through a full day of work, my cardio/weight workout, kids and wife come home so we prepare dinner, cleanup, kids homework, baths and finally get to sit back and relax by 8:30-ish. Bed by 10-11 normally. I do cycle my stim use but for now, it's been with varying combos i.e ones that don't have your standard ECA with others. I take weekends off typically. I'm trying Maca for added energy and thus far (haven't finished the bottle), I'm finding no utility in it at all. This has been amongst other natural non-stim supps. I'm fairly energetic for a 40 year old anyways mostly due to vigorous cardio sessions followed by 30 minutes of variable intensity weights depending on how I'm feeling, decent nutrition and at least 7hrs of sleep per night.
tuberman
Active member
Try Rhodiola Rosa -- at just the right levels it gives many an energy boost. I think I should try it and cut down the coffee.
Yeah, there always seems to be a ton of demands. I had to go into work for several hours, and just got home. I'm drinking a cup of coffee now with some Acetyl L-Carnitine so I can do some reading for several hours. I use aniracetam, Magnesium L-Threonate, & bacopa to help relax me. Sometimes I get upset with the speed of life today.
You "cycle" during the day, and truth be told so do I usually, as it's difficult to not use at least caffeine during the day. If you get Lehrer's "Imagine," read the chapter on W.H. Auden the famous poet. That was fascinating for me.
I may try Lumocity when I do the CILTEP regimen, but I'll complete my reading of at least two more brain science books first. Speedy motor skills using all the senses is a big part of the learning process too. Brain scientists will often include this type of learning in the implicit, or subconscious area, but that seems to be a problem with the way they slot knowledge and learning.
tuberman
Active member
In the last 2 1/2 days I've read a little over half of the book, "The Archaeology of the Mind" by Jaak Panksepp. His model of the "Seeking System" introduces to me a whole new paradigm on how the brain works. The old model is the "reward/punishment learning system" created by the behaviorists. Even though behaviorism has fallen out of favor, for the most part, some of it's models for the meaning of learning are still strong in the brain science community. They are so powerful that most brain scientists will not risk their careers by going against the status quo. The Seeking System, it seems to me, is a vastly better way of looking into brain functions, learning, mood, and even how people mature than the old models.
This is an awesome book (and I never, ever use that type of overstatement, but this is an exception)!
This is an awesome book (and I never, ever use that type of overstatement, but this is an exception)!