DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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Royd The Noyd said:
LoL holy fawk Kramer can be brutal
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Ouch- that is rough....interesting discussion in general

I agree that the manufacturers really need to do a better job at policing themselves, b/c if the gubment steps in- you haven't seen anything yet- someone made a comparison to Australia, which is probably not too far off from what would end up happening to the industry. Manufacturing would get much more expensive in general, and you would see the cost of most commonly available supplements go through the roof, because current facilities would have to make costly changes just to keep up with the regulations. I also agree that a few bad apples can ruin it for the whole bunch- mislabeling and misbranding products in the industry is not as common as it used to be, but it still happens more than it needs to. Some of it is inadvertent as a result of negligence (improper testing, etc.), but when you get into the realm of deliberately adulterating/misbranding, that is a whole different animal. This aspect of the game terrifies me, because of the potential implications for both end users, and future regulatory intervention.

Not really sure what happened in this case- I will say that things get a lot harder to control when you rely on a contract mfr. for finished product and sourcing your raws- most cos. have no idea of what they are really looking at, of even if there is a problem, often until it is too late....
 
rms80 said:
Ouch- that is rough....interesting discussion in general

I agree that the manufacturers really need to do a better job at policing themselves, b/c if the gubment steps in- you haven't seen anything yet- someone made a comparison to Australia, which is probably not too far off from what would end up happening to the industry. Manufacturing would get much more expensive in general, and you would see the cost of most commonly available supplements go through the roof, because current facilities would have to make costly changes just to keep up with the regulations. I also agree that a few bad apples can ruin it for the whole bunch- mislabeling and misbranding products in the industry is not as common as it used to be, but it still happens more than it needs to. Some of it is inadvertent as a result of negligence (improper testing, etc.), but when you get into the realm of deliberately adulterating/misbranding, that is a whole different animal. This aspect of the game terrifies me, because of the potential implications for both end users, and future regulatory intervention.

Not really sure what happened in this case- I will say that things get a lot harder to control when you rely on a contract mfr. for finished product and sourcing your raws- most cos. have no idea of what they are really looking at, of even if there is a problem, often until it is too late....
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Ebonics translation= Don't hate da playa hate da game!
 
T-Bone said:
Ebonics translation= Don't hate da playa hate da game!
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LOL- as both consumers and manufacturers, we actually want the game to stay like it is right now- like Patrick said, it can get a whole lot worse
 
I'm a little worried that it is, makes sense. That would spell trouble for any PEA products :( I knew it was only a matter of time though. Saving grace is that PEA on it's own is almost useless, and it is also naturally occurring (pure PEA, even thought it's a chem, not an herb), so hopefully it'll be safe.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
believe me, its the wild west in our industry still. maybe not like 5-10 years ago but not that much different. that may change very soon though
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Yeah, I've only been in this 'industry' for ~a year I'd say, like actually in it a year and already seen pH prices triple...
 
Gutterpump said:
I'm a little worried that it is, makes sense. That would spell trouble for any PEA products :( I knew it was only a matter of time though. Saving grace is that PEA on it's own is almost useless, and it is also naturally occurring (pure PEA, even thought it's a chem, not an herb), so hopefully it'll be safe.
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my guess is that the n-benzyl pea is not really doing much of anything in the formula. still, it is in the formula in substantial amounts and it is not listed on the label. which makes me wonder, why put it in there at all??
 
Patrick Arnold said:
my guess is that the n-benzyl pea is not really doing much of anything in the formula. still, it is in the formula in substantial amounts and it is not listed on the label. which makes me wonder, why put it in there at all??
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i am pretty sure i see n,n-diethyl pea in the formula too. I dont think this is naturally occuring either, but it is listed on the label

i wouldnt expect that compound to do much of anything either
 
Without any form of maob inhibitor, they're basically useless compounds

PEA is naturally occurring neurotransmitter. A lot of nootropics are related to neurotransmitters, I wonder how that industry stays afloat if they are considered unnatural as well (not from plants or herbs). I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA. PEA does break down into dopa though, so maybe that's arguable.
 
Gutterpump said:
I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA.
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I thought PEA was in chocolate. Or maybe it was secondary-release from other stuff (trimethylxanthines that cause the brain to release its own PEA?).

Mr. Arnold? Oh, BTW, I still have a few capsules of AMP purchased way back in '05!
 
Gutterpump said:
Without any form of maob inhibitor, they're basically useless compounds

PEA is naturally occurring neurotransmitter. A lot of nootropics are related to neurotransmitters, I wonder how that industry stays afloat if they are considered unnatural as well (not from plants or herbs). I know l-dopa can be extracted from velvet beans, but I'm unsure of PEA. PEA does break down into dopa though, so maybe that's arguable.
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I thought if one took enough PEA, one could get a sufficient dose to feel effects as the amount of MAOB to metabolize during first pass is limited. Probably poor word choice, but if take enough, some will get through. I was asking 10 pages back if there is anything in there including Piperidine that would enable more PEA to cross BBB?

I have heard if guys taking huge doses of PEA and snorting PEA report and ampedup amphetamine feeling. I have seen a threshold dose regarding this, just cannot remember the amount. Maybe the amount and different PEAs in Craze is allowing some to get through or by MAOB.
 
996ttelise said:
I thought if one took enough PEA, one could get a sufficient dose to feel effects as the amount of MAOB to metabolize during first pass is limited. Probably poor word choice, but if take enough, some will get through. I was asking 10 pages back if there is anything in there including Piperidine that would enable more PEA to cross BBB?

I have heard if guys taking huge doses of PEA and snorting PEA report and ampedup amphetamine feeling. I have seen a threshold dose regarding this, just cannot remember the amount. Maybe the amount and different PEAs in Craze is allowing some to get through or by MAOB.
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It takes about 1 gram of PEA in order to saturate MAOB receptors. A dose of 1.5grams is enough to feel something... but it is widely believed that any dose that goes past saturation, is toxic. (not sure if my wording is right so bare with me, but you get the idea)

Pre-dosing 100-200mg of caffeine is also enough to tie up MAOB in order for PEA to have effect.

I have heard stories of people taking a gram of PEA with deprenyl though and they still lived. Effects were an hour plus. They didn't take the gram at once though, but split it 30min / 30min. Effects were very intense.
 
Gutterpump said:
It takes about 1 gram of PEA in order to saturate MAOB receptors. A dose of 1.5grams is enough to feel something... but it is widely believed that any dose that goes past saturation, is toxic. (not sure if my wording is right so bare with me, but you get the idea)

Pre-dosing 100-200mg of caffeine is also enough to tie up MAOB in order for PEA to have effect.

I have heard stories of people taking a gram of PEA with deprenyl though and they still lived. Effects were an hour plus. They didn't take the gram at once though, but split it 30min / 30min. Effects were very intense.
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From my experience, regular PEA does very little on its own, or even with hordenine. R-Beta Methyl PEA plus Hordenine= different story altogether- 250 mg R-Beta plus 100 mg of hordenine and you will be sweating your ass off and grinding your teeth, LOL. It has a decent "feel" to it (not unlike 1,3 DMAA), but it can make people edgy and agitated
 
To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
 
Gutterpump said:
To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
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I can confirm what you are saying, except with modafinil (DA reuptake inhibitor) instead of deprenyl aong with a dose of naringin, cocoa, and caffeine. It literally turned me into a drooling, laughing idiot for 1.5 hrs. or so- totally inadvertant, but not unpleasant, once I realized what had happened. I would NOT try to duplicate this- I think I lost some serious brain cells that day
 
Really? From my experience, things were very much in control, felt godlike, no drooling lol. Imagine sun god, beaming and powerful :D
 
Gutterpump said:
Really? From my experience, things were very much in control, felt godlike, no drooling lol. Imagine sun god, beaming and powerful :D
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Mine was more tingling euphoria, like when the first rush from X hits you- probably didn't help that I wasn't expecting it. I literally could not stand up (or move) for roughly an hour or so- just had a huge smile on my face, and my whole body was tingling- gave the combo to 3 other people, who basically had the same observations
 
Gutterpump said:
No idea, I'm totally unfamiliar with these isomers. Have never seen them before. I tend to stay away from designer substances without any studies behind them.
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There are no PEA isomers in craze besides b-PEA.

rms80 said:
From my experience, regular PEA does very little on its own, or even with hordenine. R-Beta Methyl PEA plus Hordenine= different story altogether- 250 mg R-Beta plus 100 mg of hordenine and you will be sweating your ass off and grinding your teeth, LOL. It has a decent "feel" to it (not unlike 1,3 DMAA), but it can make people edgy and agitated
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Hordenine should have essentially no effect on PEA's half-life give hordenine's equivalent HL and inability to penetrate the CNS. As far as the Methyl-b-PEA, what would explain the different effects? I can see this being more relevant if it was a methyl substituted on the alpha position (obviously), but as it stands, I would expect no difference between methyl-b-pea and b-pea.
 
Gokmog said:
I thought PEA was in chocolate. Or maybe it was secondary-release from other stuff (trimethylxanthines that cause the brain to release its own PEA?).

Mr. Arnold? Oh, BTW, I still have a few capsules of AMP purchased way back in '05!
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PEA is in chocolate however it is not what is responsible for the psychoactivity. its more the theophylline and theobromine
 
Gutterpump said:
To best describe it, it's like an MDMA/amphetamine hybrid feeling (from what I've heard) when dosing high on the MAOB inhibitor, like 10mg of deprenyl taken many hours prior. Very very positive but intense feeling, pure euphoria. If those effects aren't noticed, dose of maob inhibitor and/or pea is too low. I don't necessarily recommend trying this due to safety though.
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none of this sounds very attractive from a bodybuilding perspective. maybe from a recreational party perspective it is
 
Patrick Arnold said:
what about n,n-diethyl and n-benzyl derivatives? not counting them as isomers?

technically they are not isomers, but derivatives. but i just wanted to check
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Right, they are derivatives. I was just trying to maintain clarity since there are so many PEA-compounds being discussed in this thread.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
There are no PEA isomers in craze besides b-PEA.



Hordenine should have essentially no effect on PEA's half-life give hordenine's equivalent HL and inability to penetrate the CNS. As far as the Methyl-b-PEA, what would explain the different effects? I can see this being more relevant if it was a methyl substituted on the alpha position (obviously), but as it stands, I would expect no difference between methyl-b-pea and b-pea.
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Neither did I- it really surprised me when I took this combo. We have a function on our NIR that looks at chemical bonding, and I did compare the two out of curiousity (and to get a better idea of what I was working with- this feature is good at picking out adulterants), and they aren't very different besides the methylation- only thing I can think of is that the methylation alters first-pass metabolism somewhat, but this is only speculation
 
rms80 said:
Neither did I- it really surprised me when I took this combo. We have a function on our NIR that looks at chemical bonding, and I did compare the two out of curiousity (and to get a better idea of what I was working with- this feature is good at picking out adulterants), and they aren't very different besides the methylation- only thing I can think of is that the methylation alters first-pass metabolism somewhat, but this is only speculation
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i dont know if the liver is the major concern with metabolism of these PEA compounds. PEA and its derivatives are metabolized for the most part by mao b. according to wikidpedia mao b is localized mostly in neurons, astroglia, and blood platelets.

i think cooper is right and a beta methyl doesnt really block mao b like alpha methyl
 
Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
 
kokobeware2 said:
Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
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Yes that is the point of life, but the problem here would be not knowing whats in your poison. For instance you may not think anything of me drinking whiskey and that's my own decision to drink whiskey. But if unknowingly the whiskey was loaded with lead don't you think I'd have a right to be aware of that fact?

You wouldn't have an issue with Heinz if they didn't put on the label of ketchup that it contained gasoline if it did? That would be ok with you because if it works it works?

Extreme examples yes, but I'm having a hard time seeing it from some people's perspectives.
 
kokobeware2 said:
Isn't the whole idea of life pick your poison? Some drink, smoke (happy 420 to all stoners) shoot heroine whatever. I rarely drink (a glass or 2 of Guinness a week haven't smoked in about a year and I don't even shoot gear let alone heroine. If it works it works. Just incase I'm buying 2 tubs of craze today.
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That's really not the issue. If your "poison" options aren't labeled correctly you don't know exactly what your picking.
 
One thing tho', how many ingredients/products we ingest for years and then
one day a study comes out and tells us that stuff was bad for us?

Again, I wanna know what I take like the next guy,
but let's face it, having total control on anything we take (and I'm not talking
only about supplements) is not happening, never has
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i dont know if the liver is the major concern with metabolism of these PEA compounds. PEA and its derivatives are metabolized for the most part by mao b. according to wikidpedia mao b is localized mostly in neurons, astroglia, and blood platelets.

i think cooper is right and a beta methyl doesnt really block mao b like alpha methyl
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Then I honestly can't speculate why :) What you are both saying makes perfect sense- I am going to pull up the spectra I have and take another look and see if there is something I missed structurally on the bonding.....
 
Geoforce said:
Yes that is the point of life, but the problem here would be not knowing whats in your poison. For instance you may not think anything of me drinking whiskey and that's my own decision to drink whiskey. But if unknowingly the whiskey was loaded with lead don't you think I'd have a right to be aware of that fact?

You wouldn't have an issue with Heinz if they didn't put on the label of ketchup that it contained gasoline if it did? That would be ok with you because if it works it works?

Extreme examples yes, but I'm having a hard time seeing it from some people's perspectives.
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But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned
 
kokobeware2 said:
But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned
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now tell me how a sealed bottle of whiskey is going to get contaminated with lead.

you should question stuff but within reason of course. Perhaps thats your point
 
Patrick Arnold said:
now tell me how a sealed bottle of whiskey is going to get contaminated with lead.

you should question stuff but within reason of course. Perhaps thats your point
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In the process of manufacturing. Not shipment. And yes one should question stuff.
 
kokobeware2 said:
But how do u know a bottle of whiskey u drank didn't come in contact with lead? Just because you do not know, it doesn't make it any better. Maybe something's are best off not questioned
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I'm sorry this seems like such an insane position to take. Maybe somethings are best off not questioned? Really? You'd rather just not question what you're putting into your body? Is it possible that something gets contaminated somehow through no fault of the company? Certainly, but that isn't the issue at hand. If a company KNOWINGLY mislabeled a product you wouldn't be upset? Your response is really "well we shouldn't question it."?

I just can't come to grips I guess with what some people are claiming in this thread. And FWIW I agree with a lot of what Autokal and Southpaw have said, but comments like this just baffle me.
 
AutoKal47 said:
One thing tho', how many ingredients/products we ingest for years and then
one day a study comes out and tells us that stuff was bad for us?

Again, I wanna know what I take like the next guy,
but let's face it, having total control on anything we take (and I'm not talking
only about supplements) is not happening, never has
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Agreed. No one goes after underdosed products out of some pseudo-concern, or in the vain some are preaching here of "looking out for us." I'm all for public safety as well. But let's be honest, that isn't the concern here for some. I have a feeling this will all amount to a mislabeling issue/technicality and due to that, the product ends up getting pulled. If that happens I wouldn't spend a dollar on any company/person involved that facilitated this in the first place and I'd advise my friends to follow suit.
 
southpaw23 said:
Agreed. No one goes after underdosed products out of some pseudo-concern, or in the vain some are preaching here of "looking out for us." I'm all for public safety as well. But let's be honest, that isn't the concern here for some. I have a feeling this will all amount to a mislabeling issue/technicality and due to that, the product ends up getting pulled. If that happens I wouldn't spend a dollar on any company/person involved that facilitated this in the first place and I'd advise my friends to follow suit.
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So let me get this straight.

You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
 
DAdams91982 said:
So let me get this straight.

You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
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DA, I respect your opinion, however, I consider all the parties involved here ranging from BK, RK and others, and judge accordingly based on their credibility as well, in addition to DS. I'm not blaming the messenger. I am, however, skeptical of the messengers intent (just know that I am not alone here, many others feel the same way but they won't voice these opinions for whatever reason). I could care less whether I get flamed on the interwebs of all places. It is what it is, the product will get pulled as many here are hoping for and all the pseudo-concern for the well being of "us customers" can and will continue forward I'm sure. I'm entitled to my position and I'm sticking to it.
 
Geoforce said:
I'm sorry this seems like such an insane position to take. Maybe somethings are best off not questioned? Really? You'd rather just not question what you're putting into your body? Is it possible that something gets contaminated somehow through no fault of the company? Certainly, but that isn't the issue at hand. If a company KNOWINGLY mislabeled a product you wouldn't be upset? Your response is really "well we shouldn't question it."?

I just can't come to grips I guess with what some people are claiming in this thread. And FWIW I agree with a lot of what Autokal and Southpaw have said, but comments like this just baffle me.
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well said, i guess some people will put anything down there throat as long as it gets a good review or results. southpaw sounds really young and careless on this subject, probably one of those people who won't be able to enjoy a glass of wine when he's 50 because his organs are shot from taking things with "good" reviews.
 
DAdams91982 said:
So let me get this straight.

You expect Craze to be mislabeled and the person you will consider shady is there one who discovered the cover up? Considering the checkered past of DS, I believe your loyalties are a bit over zealous here.
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DA I'm with you on this one This is craziness haha.
 
jobless said:
well said, i guess some people will put anything down there throat as long as it gets a good review or results. southpaw sounds really young and careless on this subject, probably one of those people who won't be able to enjoy a glass of wine when he's 50 because his organs are shot from taking things with "good" reviews.
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Everyone on the internet considers themselves an expert, as such you're entitled to your opinion. Again the insults don't bother me, the lack of transparency does, BK. Please don't let me get in the way of the "pseudo-concern."
 
southpaw23 said:
DA, I respect your opinion, however, I consider all the parties involved here from BK, RK and others, and judge accordingly based on their credibility as well. I'm not blaming the messenger. I am, however, skeptical of the messengers intent (just know that I am not alone here, many others feel the same way but they won't voice these opinions for whatever reason). I could care less whether I get flamed on the interwebs of all places. It is what it is, the product will get pulled as many here are hoping for and all the pseudo-concern for the well being of "us customers" can and will continue I'm sure. I'm entitled to my position and I'm sticking to it.
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Not detracting from your right to feel how you do.

Problem is, it will come to light one way or another if it is tainted, or if it is not. No reason to be He-man right now for the product. You do understand that Craze is experiencing the highest sale volume it will experience in it's time on the market right now due to the controversy. And if it does come to light that it is tainted with a hidden ingredient, more power to the people who brought it to light.

I could care less if BK, RK and PA test products as much as they want or are paid to do... if your company is following the letter of the law then you have nothing to worry about. Again, you are defending a company that has their share of a past.. so essentially it is a pot/kettle thing.

In the mean time, just sit back and relax and let it unfold. You crusading right now will not keep the product on the market any longer, nor sway any minds to go purchase it... the controversy already has peoples shelves stocked.
 
rms80 said:
Then I honestly can't speculate why :) What you are both saying makes perfect sense- I am going to pull up the spectra I have and take another look and see if there is something I missed structurally on the bonding.....
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Sitting here trying to replicate the phenyl ring and the aminoethyl group for the PEA and the phenylpropan-1-amine for the methyl PEA via the spectra- I have them sitting side by side for comparison- this may take a while to map this out....
 
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