Election of 2012....Who ya got?

[djdarklyceum]

Hey dude, thanks for the rep and reply, appreciate your time.

I totally respect your stance on the subject, at the end of the day politics does not define a person and who they think is right or wrong, we all see things differently but ultimately want the same things (mostly). I too normally stay out of these threads but it was more of a reflection of respect that I said anything because usually people who are voting Rick Santorum ARE extremists and totally blind to factual information. If you see everything the way it and still think Rick is a better fit, then all the more power to you. I however don't agree. I'd like to think of myself as a centrist and I know that's a cop out but there are definitely some things the republican party are doing wrong, and then there's a whole bunch of things the democrats are doing wrong also. I'm all for a better America (Just fyi I'm not American, I'm actually Australian but LOVE American politics/pop culture etc because it fascinates me and have been following it heavily for the last 5 years.) because a great American means great Australia.

Looking forward to my first trip to the states this year (fingers crossed). Going to the main destinations but especially looking forward to going to Texas and catch a college NFL/NBA game as well as enjoy some fine outback meat + shoot up some stuff!

 

[DerickVonD]

Paul winning would be best, Santorum would be the worst. Newt would be a little worse than Obama, Romney would be worse than Newt and Obama will be okay for afew months and then things will get really bad, but not any worse than if Mitt Newt or Rick go into office, it would be slightly better with Obama.

 

[AE14]

Hey dude, thanks for the rep and reply, appreciate your time.

I totally respect your stance on the subject, at the end of the day politics does not define a person and who they think is right or wrong, we all see things differently but ultimately want the same things (mostly). I too normally stay out of these threads but it was more of a reflection of respect that I said anything because usually people who are voting Rick Santorum ARE extremists and totally blind to factual information. If you see everything the way it and still think Rick is a better fit, then all the more power to you. I however don't agree. I'd like to think of myself as a centrist and I know that's a cop out but there are definitely some things the republican party are doing wrong, and then there's a whole bunch of things the democrats are doing wrong also. I'm all for a better America (Just fyi I'm not American, I'm actually Australian but LOVE American politics/pop culture etc because it fascinates me and have been following it heavily for the last 5 years.) because a great American means great Australia.

Looking forward to my first trip to the states this year (fingers crossed). Going to the main destinations but especially looking forward to going to Texas and catch a college NFL/NBA game as well as enjoy some fine outback meat + shoot up some stuff!

Good post. I think the problem with Santorum is not his religion per se, but the extreme nature in which he espouses it. He is trying very hard to appeal to a particular base, when to me it would seem that he would isolate some of the more moderates along the way. His comments about Satan, the JFK speech, and church and state were particular disconcerting in the 21st century.

 

[EasyEJL]

After re-reading some from this thread... I want to make something clear.

I am an average American man. I love to workout (most of the time) and I love sports. My favorite music is country music. My favorite movie is Braveheart. I put Tabasco sauce on EVERYTHING. I do like Beer and I drink it. I love my wife more than anything in the world. I usually follow my heart rather than my brain; this is sometimes proven to be a mistake. I am conservative in my political beliefs. I also am a believer/follower of Jesus Christ.

^my reason for going into all of that is because I can tell from some posts in this thread that I am being somewhat judged as some religious-freak. I try to live a balanced life; but God is the most important part of it.

There, now AnabolicMinds knows more about me than most.

the important part is that no matter how rabidly you feel about it, you aren't trying to force it down anyone else's throat . I've got no issues with people having their own strong beliefs in any religious system, so long as they don't believe it should govern what I can and can't do.

 

[EasyEJL]

Thanks for the warm welcome

Yes Obama 'claims' to be a christian, I'm not 100% sure if he is or not but I personally believe after taking out all the christian pro-biased views, Obama is better for the country than Rick Santorum. He has no accountability for what he says and is a form of extremist in his views with religion and government. He is exactly what you proclaim to be again'st. If anyone had a balance out of Obama and the 4 candidates it would be Obama, sure he panders to wall street and big banks to a degree, but with 3 out of those 4 candidates (Ron Paul being the exception) that degree will increase greatly and the gap between middle class and poor will be blurred. They flip flop on all kinds of views except for the basic right wing conservative view which I think is far more dangerous. I actually think it's sad to say but Obama having another term is a good thing despite being a failure on many levels but also achieving on others (jobs etc/tax rates etc). Until someone who has faith that is exuded through real christian values and not flip flopping through, Obama would get my vote.

Type in youtube "Rick Santorum Pro-Choice?"

Obama is the ultimate snake oil salesman. He appeals to the more average person solely through a carefully crafted image, not because of real concern. He is far worse for us as a nation than anyone except Santorum. And the primary reason Santorum is worse is that Santorum would create even more polarization between liberals + conservative. As far as the gap betwen the poor and middle class we have a few major issues that Obama would make worse. As of right now, 49.5% of the US pays $0 in federal income taxes. In some ways to some people that may sound like a good thing. However what its doing is forcing the government deeper into bankruptcy (ala Greece) or forcing it to collect more in taxes from people who are the investors + job creators. Neither of those is a good thing. Obama would continue that trend further and harder than any of the others. As a simple example, a family of 4 earning 80,000 a year today pays roughly 5% in effective taxes (under $4,000). A family of 4 in 1980 making $40,000 a year paid more (around $4,200). Comparing us to other nations, in direct income taxes in Finland for a family of 4 making $80,000 a year is close to $17,000 plus they pay a VAT of 23% on most purchases, 14% in restaurants, and 9% on food + medicine.

Obama has accomplished 0 on jobs. The most rosy estimate of the stimulus package jobs is maybe 3 million jobs. At a cost of almost 800 billion, thats over $260,000 to create each job. Its not exactly hard to beat that. The least rosy estimates are under 1 million jobs, which ends up at a cost of close to a million dollars each. And thats jobs with an average salary under $50,000 a year. The math simply doesn't work. We'd have done better to take that $800 billion and give everyone in the US who paid federal taxes a $6,000 check, or run a lottery where 10 million randomly selected tax payers each got $80,000.

And forget his record in other areas. Foreign policy? A complete bust. no conversation even on Israel/Palestine, didn't listen to ground recommendations for troops in the middle east. He supported the Arab spring which is turning into an utter disaster, stable sectarian dictatorships are instead being replaced now with unstable sharia law driven radical islamist governments. And "killing Osama Bin Laden" is a joke, what real involvement did he have there? 0. Its not an effect of his policy or decisions, it was based around when he was found + identified (or in Ax's case if it even happened)

 

[Rahl]

Obama is the ultimate snake oil salesman. He appeals to the more average person solely through a carefully crafted image, not because of real concern. He is far worse for us as a nation than anyone except Santorum. And the primary reason Santorum is worse is that Santorum would create even more polarization between liberals + conservative. As far as the gap betwen the poor and middle class we have a few major issues that Obama would make worse. As of right now, 49.5% of the US pays $0 in federal income taxes. In some ways to some people that may sound like a good thing. However what its doing is forcing the government deeper into bankruptcy (ala Greece) or forcing it to collect more in taxes from people who are the investors + job creators. Neither of those is a good thing. Obama would continue that trend further and harder than any of the others. As a simple example, a family of 4 earning 80,000 a year today pays roughly 5% in effective taxes (under $4,000). A family of 4 in 1980 making $40,000 a year paid more (around $4,200). Comparing us to other nations, in direct income taxes in Finland for a family of 4 making $80,000 a year is close to $17,000 plus they pay a VAT of 23% on most purchases, 14% in restaurants, and 9% on food + medicine.

Obama has accomplished 0 on jobs. The most rosy estimate of the stimulus package jobs is maybe 3 million jobs. At a cost of almost 800 billion, thats over $260,000 to create each job. Its not exactly hard to beat that. The least rosy estimates are under 1 million jobs, which ends up at a cost of close to a million dollars each. And thats jobs with an average salary under $50,000 a year. The math simply doesn't work. We'd have done better to take that $800 billion and give everyone in the US who paid federal taxes a $6,000 check, or run a lottery where 10 million randomly selected tax payers each got $80,000.

And forget his record in other areas. Foreign policy? A complete bust. no conversation even on Israel/Palestine, didn't listen to ground recommendations for troops in the middle east. He supported the Arab spring which is turning into an utter disaster, stable sectarian dictatorships are instead being replaced now with unstable sharia law driven radical islamist governments. And "killing Osama Bin Laden" is a joke, what real involvement did he have there? 0. Its not an effect of his policy or decisions, it was based around when he was found + identified (or in Ax's case if it even happened)

You make some good point here Easy and one I think is often misconstrued about taxes. It's not just the "poor" who don't pay any. The guy across the street from me who makes pretty good money (probably $100k +) has 6 kids. That's a lot of child tax credits. Plus mortgage deductions etc.

There was a really good article in our local paper a few weeks ago about who is receiving government money. Many are the same group who are venting about the cost of government. But, when asked about their slice of the pie the answer was always, " I don't know what I would do without it".

The Arab spring is an extension of the Iraq mistake. We destabilized the middle east. In its place we left a power vacuum to be filled by the only organized group. Extreme elements like the Muslim brotherhood. We've put Israel in greater danger than ever with our actions over the last decade their from W to Obama.

 

[ax1]

And "killing Osama Bin Laden" is a joke, what real involvement did he have there? 0. Its not an effect of his policy or decisions, it was based around when he was found + identified (or in Ax's case if it even happened)

They destroyed the compound the other day in the middle of the night. So much for a tourist destination, and more importantly evidence.

Regardless, lets pretend it happened.... it had nothing to do with Obama and he is just capitalizing on work of other people and using it for personal political gain. And lets be ethical and now show the bloody Bid Laden photo's but Khaddafii we will post his carcass all over the television, that was delicious and great for ratings.

As of right now, 49.5% of the US pays $0 in federal income taxes. In some ways to some people that may sound like a good thing. However what its doing is forcing the government deeper into bankruptcy (ala Greece) or forcing it to collect more in taxes from people who are the investors + job creators. Neither of those is a good thing. Obama would continue that trend further and harder than any of the others. As a simple example, a family of 4 earning 80,000 a year today pays roughly 5% in effective taxes (under $4,000). A family of 4 in 1980 making $40,000 a year paid more (around $4,200). Comparing us to other nations, in direct income taxes in Finland for a family of 4 making $80,000 a year is close to $17,000 plus they pay a VAT of 23% on most purchases, 14% in restaurants, and 9% on food + medicine.

I still dont understand how anyone can think of income tax as ethical, government shouldnt own the fruits of labor of man. Its inhumane and legalized slavery. I remember years ago when I was poor income tax really slowed down my abilities to do something with myself and to have a better quality of life. So they gave me a partial refund check once a year so I behave and drool like everybody else over money that belonged to me in the first place that was taken against my will.

You do make good points though, I dont excactly disagree with it, the system is stupid.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, i'm not going to talk about what my income actually is but my effective tax rate after everything is only around 10-12%, not including SSI. Thats still of course far far more than 50% of the US paid. When half the population say "I pay my taxes" its only their social security they are actually paying, and given Obama's tax holiday they aren't even paying their full SSI tax.

 

[EasyEJL]

I still dont understand how anyone can think of income tax as ethical, government shouldnt own the fruits of labor of man. Its inhumane and legalized slavery. I remember years ago when I was poor income tax really slowed down my abilities to do something with myself and to have a better quality of life. So they gave me a partial refund check once a year so I behave and drool like everybody else over money that belonged to me in the first place that was taken against my will.

You do make good points though, I dont excactly disagree with it, the system is stupid.

well, constitutionally the government is tasked with protecting our borders. They have to have some source of income to do so, whether its land leases, taxes, etc. And particularly when you consider SSI, people absolutely need to pay in to expect to get anything out. Not like SSI is constitutional anyhow.

 

[AE14]

Excellent points overall E. To me, we have no real choices at this point. It will most likely be Romney or Santorum v. Obama. Where is my option? I feel the need to vote as a citizen, but how will any of these guys actually help?

Santorum is downright frightening imo. Romney and Obama are not all that different. There is no real choice, unless I write in Mickey Mouse

 

[ax1]

well, constitutionally the government is tasked with protecting our borders. They have to have some source of income to do so, whether its land leases, taxes, etc. And particularly when you consider SSI, people absolutely need to pay in to expect to get anything out. Not like SSI is constitutional anyhow.

Im not against taxes when spending it, or property tax along those lines. We have roads, bridges, military, all the things that are important to maintain the quality of life for all that have to be payed for. Im just against the idea that you are taxed on your labor, I just consider it slavery, the government being the master.

 

[EasyEJL]

Excellent points overall E. To me, we have no real choices at this point. It will most likely be Romney or Santorum v. Obama. Where is my option? I feel the need to vote as a citizen, but how will any of these guys actually help?

Santorum is downright frightening imo. Romney and Obama are not all that different. There is no real choice, unless I write in Mickey Mouse

it really is impossible how anyone could think Santorum as a president would be a good idea.

With Obama we got 4 more years of Bush, who was 8 more years of Clinton. Pretty much whoever we end up with will be close to the same.

We're totally boned sometime between 2020-2030 (by CBO estimates), and it will come crashing down worse than Greece or even the way the Arab Spring countries went, because we have more guns per capita.

 

[ax1]

Excellent points overall E. To me, we have no real choices at this point. It will most likely be Romney or Santorum v. Obama. Where is my option? I feel the need to vote as a citizen, but how will any of these guys actually help?

Santorum is downright frightening imo. Romney and Obama are not all that different. There is no real choice, unless I write in Mickey Mouse

Why do you feel the need to vote a citizen under these circumstances? Is it really a vote if the choices are given to you by them?

I cannot find it conscionable to vote for the slightly less of evils.

 

[Rahl]

Why do you feel the need to vote a citizen under these circumstances? Is it really a vote if the choices are given to you by them?

I cannot find it conscionable to vote for the slightly less of evils.

This is the "wasted vote" concept. If more people would vote for someone they know can't win because they actually believe they would be better the major parties might actually pay attention. But "anyone but Obama" makes the right think "hey they like what we offer" when we truly don't. Then we do it to the left because we're sick of the guy on the right and they think the same thing.
Regardless, we are sunk unless everyone takes responsibility for what they take from government. I'm willing to give up my child tax credits etc. what about everyone else?

 

[ax1]

This is the "wasted vote" concept. If more people would vote for someone they know can't win because they actually believe they would be better the major parties might actually pay attention. But "anyone but Obama" makes the right think "hey they like what we offer" when we truly don't. Then we do it to the left because we're sick of the guy on the right and they think the same thing.
Regardless, we are sunk unless everyone takes responsibility for what they take from government. I'm willing to give up my child tax credits etc. what about everyone else?

Its ultra limited choices no matter what, ultimately elections are run by who can afford it.

The supreme court last year allowed unlimited funding to a presidential candidate by the mega-corporations. This is not a system where my voice is heard.

I cant vote into a system thats designed to be unfair in the election process, and this whole idea of political parties should be abolished voting should be only on a individual bases. Reasoning the Republicrats have monopolized our government the past 100 years.

 

[EasyEJL]

The supreme court last year allowed unlimited funding to a presidential candidate by the mega-corporations. This is not a system where my voice is heard.

Thats not quite true. Corporations can fund outside organizations that don't coordinate with the actual candidate. They also don't have the same stringent reporting + disclousre requirements of candidates though. We'd be better served by removing individual contribution limits on candidates given the Citizens United decision.

 

[AE14]

it really is impossible how anyone could think Santorum as a president would be a good idea.

With Obama we got 4 more years of Bush, who was 8 more years of Clinton. Pretty much whoever we end up with will be close to the same.

We're totally boned sometime between 2020-2030 (by CBO estimates), and it will come crashing down worse than Greece or even the way the Arab Spring countries went, because we have more guns per capita.

We are totally screwed, and anyone will just continue the process. Very sad, and the world I leave to my daughter and her kids is downright horrible.

Ax, (sorry couldnt quote more than 1 for some reason) as a first generation, I have always felt it was my "say" to vote. I dont know if I can truly explain it. However, this might be the first November I stay home. Unless of course Santorum gets the nod, and then I write in Mickey Mouse

 

[ax1]

Ax, (sorry couldnt quote more than 1 for some reason) as a first generation, I have always felt it was my "say" to vote. I dont know if I can truly explain it. However, this might be the first November I stay home. Unless of course Santorum gets the nod, and then I write in Mickey Mouse

You see...even if Paul ran as an independent (as Ive stated I already wont vote for Republican Paul), I wouldnt even vote for him (as in independent.) Although I support his idea's and will continue to do so, his immediate trillion dollar in spending cuts ("Plan to Restore America" program) include an immediate 66% cut in food stamps (Im not for food stamps but this is too fast a cut) and an immediate foreign aid cut to countries that are dependent on food supplies can lead to genocide and famine. Although death by murder through unwarranted wars is disastrous, money alone has a more dangerous potential.

I understand that the country is broke, and all this may happen anyways since the money will be gone but I cannot under my own ethics be involved either way by casting a vote with my finger tips.

Also, Im bothered by a clip I saw of him from the 2008 debate when he stated that he had abandoned and disproves ideas that 9/11 was an inside job. I cannot get over that, I know he knows certain characters in the government are suspects in regards to 9/11, but his public abandonment is an example of how he will as with any typical politician alter his views publicly in order to gain political power over true honesty and integrity.

 

[AE14]

I understand where you are coming from Ax. I have no doubt he is no different than the rest.

 

[Rahl]

Thats not quite true. Corporations can fund outside organizations that don't coordinate with the actual candidate. They also don't have the same stringent reporting + disclousre requirements of candidates though. We'd be better served by removing individual contribution limits on candidates given the Citizens United decision.

"don't coordinate" being key there. Citizens united was a disaster for our democracy. Don't just love the shiny happy names they slap on things? Like "Patriot Act". Hahahahaha. The least patriotic price of trash ever written. Anyway, we would be better without the money in politics at all not more in. It is not free speech to be able to buy an election.

 

[ax1]

The least patriotic price of trash ever written.

Its a cookbook!

 

[Conagher]

Its a cookbook!

It is like the term "Right to Work".It sounds nice,but all it means is that as an employee in a right to work state like Oklahoma,you have no rights.

 

[EasyEJL]

It is like the term "Right to Work".It sounds nice,but all it means is that as an employee in a right to work state like Oklahoma,you have no rights.

You have rights, just not right to keeping a job forever regardless of your performance

 

[Conagher]

You have rights, just not right to keeping a job forever regardless of your performance

Not as many as you might think,Easy.There is almost zero protection from harassment from bosses or coworkers.I have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment from female superiors in two jobs the last few years.I had no ability to change the situation other than to quit.Even minorities are not protected from racial slurs here in Oklahoma.I have had coworkers called anything from nigg*** to spics,and all they could do was accept it or leave.
The only thing that carries weight here in OK is being a woman.

 

[EasyEJL]

Not as many as you might think,Easy.There is almost zero protection from harassment from bosses or coworkers.I have been on the receiving end of sexual harassment from female superiors in two jobs the last few years.I had no ability to change the situation other than to quit.Even minorities are not protected from racial slurs here in Oklahoma.I have had coworkers called anything from nigg*** to spics,and all they could do was accept it or leave.
The only thing that carries weight here in OK is being a woman.

That may be true in your workplace, but it's not true in general. Have someone record it happening, then sue

 

[TomGreen]

RON PAUL 2012, the only President that will allow steroids to become legal like they should!

 

[Rahl]

RON PAUL 2012, the only President that will allow steroids to become legal like they should!

Lol. Good luck with that.

 

[mikeg313]

RON PAUL 2012, the only President that will allow steroids to become legal like they should!

They're only illegal if you get caught ;-)

 

[AE14]

RON PAUL 2012, the only President that will allow steroids to become legal like they should!

The most important issue out there. Oy vey

 

[Conagher]

They're only illegal if you get caught ;-)

Lol!True.

 

[EasyEJL]

The most important issue out there. Oy vey

It underscores that for public safety manufacturers should have to be transparent about risks, but adults should have the right to put into their body what they want. We aren't their children.

 

[AE14]

It underscores that for public safety manufacturers should have to be transparent about risks, but adults should have the right to put into their body what they want. We aren't their children.

I think you might be reading too far into this.

To be honest, I am not the least bit concerned if adults have the rights (legally) to use steroids or not. There are far greater issues at hand than any drug legalization. I would personally like to see a little bit of consistency return to the economy, especially the housing market, where my home got crushed in value when the bubble burst.

 

[ax1]

I think you might be reading too far into this.

To be honest, I am not the least bit concerned if adults have the rights (legally) to use steroids or not. There are far greater issues at hand than any drug legalization. I would personally like to see a little bit of consistency return to the economy, especially the housing market, where my home got crushed in value when the bubble burst.

You can really help the economy if you just legalize steroids and legalize all drugs. The drug war is too costly and creates violence and organized (and in many cases disorganized) crime. Tax payers also pay for these "criminal drug users" more money to send them to prison than it would cost them to go to college. You can add a tax to the drugs and not only save all the waste spent on the WOD's, buy also get a return and that money can be used to do good things (or in the case of our current administration spend to go to another war with another country )

 

[Rahl]

You can really help the economy if you just legalize steroids and legalize all drugs. The drug war is too costly and creates violence and organized (and in many cases disorganized) crime. Tax payers also pay for these "criminal drug users" more money to send them to prison than it would cost them to go to college. You can add a tax to the drugs and not only save all the waste spent on the WOD's, buy also get a return and that money can be used to do good things (or in the case of our current administration spend to go to another war with another country )

Amen and well said. The real cost of the drug war is massive. Of course it does help keep unemployment numbers down having so many people locked up.

 

[ax1]

Amen and well said. The real cost of the drug war is massive. Of course it does help keep unemployment numbers down having so many people locked up.

Jobs in prison as well. Next time you book a airplane ticket and hand out your passport # over the phone who do you think your talking too? lol

Its legalized slavery, just another corporate prison industry connection.

 

[EasyEJL]

I think you might be reading too far into this.

To be honest, I am not the least bit concerned if adults have the rights (legally) to use steroids or not. There are far greater issues at hand than any drug legalization. I would personally like to see a little bit of consistency return to the economy, especially the housing market, where my home got crushed in value when the bubble burst.

your home value got crushed in the bubble that was caused by federal government intervention. The less involved they are in our lives, the better off we are. It boils down to the primary pieces of Paul's platform, individual liberty + property rights.

 

[AE14]

your home value got crushed in the bubble that was caused by federal government intervention. The less involved they are in our lives, the better off we are. It boils down to the primary pieces of Paul's platform, individual liberty + property rights.

this is not a paul thing here. This goes much deeper than "Personal Liberty".

 

[fueledpassion]

I think you might be reading too far into this.

To be honest, I am not the least bit concerned if adults have the rights (legally) to use steroids or not. There are far greater issues at hand than any drug legalization. I would personally like to see a little bit of consistency return to the economy, especially the housing market, where my home got crushed in value when the bubble burst.

Or maybe the specific topic Easy is talking about isn't his point. Maybe the point is really whether Americans can do what they want. I just don't get it. If the government starts dictating every little gray area and says, "this is ok but that is unlawful", then shouldn't we see a decrease of people in prison? What's the point of telling American's what they cant do if it doesn't seem to be helping them avoid these things in the first place? Why not let the ethics, morale and I dare say religion to dictate people's behavior rather than laws. We don't need laws to do what is right. We need positive influence, good leadership and a unbroken family that raises each of us to do right. The heck with laws. Laws laws laws! There is a law for everything these days and personally I just see them as another thing to break! Heck, you can even break laws and not even realize it. That's pathetic!

I think this concept of scientific socialism is the greatest point to be concerned with. The government, over time, has flip-flopped the Constitution to define what the people cant do, rather than what the federal government can do.

If we had the freedom to do as we please, then it wouldn't cost so much to start up a small business, which currently makes up about 62% of the total employment of the U.S. Furthermore, if drugs were legalized, maybe even taxed a little, the government could have huge revenues to deal with their pathetic compulsive spending problem, could lower the taxes on hard working Americans, and could release many, many prisoners with misdemeanor type offenses thus driving the costs down even more. Just like the Prohibition, banning drugs has caused so much crime related to smuggling. I say let the cocaine addict have his cocaine. He will pay enough for his addiction one way or another. We don't need to jail him for 5 years and put him through rehab therapy. Let his sin catch up with him and he will stop then! The same goes for any vice whether it's alcohol, weed, steroids, or heroine. The only one I can say should be considered illegal at all times is meth, since it's inherently dangerous to make.

 

[EasyEJL]

this is not a paul thing here. This goes much deeper than "Personal Liberty".

the bubble was created by a number of different federal government interventionist policies, including manipulation by the fed. And belief in Keynesian economics

 

[TomGreen]

The most important issue out there. Oy vey

i take personal liberty pretty serious...i guess you feel otherwise. But also Ron Paul is the only one that will do anything about the economy and make real budget cuts, and I dont want to get in a war with Iran on Israels behalf. Goldman Sach Romney or Goldman Sachs Obama it doesnt matter with them its the same monetary and foreign policy, Ron Paul is the only one not controlled by the banking cartels. He wants to end the fed, end the wars, restore civil liberties, and make real cuts.

 

[AE14]

i take personal liberty pretty serious...i guess you feel otherwise. But also Ron Paul is the only one that will do anything about the economy and make real budget cuts, and I dont want to get in a war with Iran on Israels behalf. Goldman Sach Romney or Goldman Sachs Obama it doesnt matter with them its the same monetary and foreign policy, Ron Paul is the only one not controlled by the banking cartels. He wants to end the fed, end the wars, restore civil liberties, and make real cuts.

Listen....to me this is not an issue on personal liberty. Steroids are not a concern for me, as if we have someone who can improve the economy (even slightly) and at the same time keep it illegal, I will take that. Time to be a bit more pragmatic.

Also, I am absolutely stunned by the Paul supporters. He has been in Washington for over 30+ years, and how many bills has he gotten passed for the "betterment of personal liberty"? The fact that people make him out to be a messiah figure is laughable, and if he was the man of the people, how in the world is her the only one that has not won a state yet?

Waiting for the conspiracy to begin

 

[ax1]

Listen....to me this is not an issue on personal liberty. Steroids are not a concern for me, as if we have someone who can improve the economy (even slightly) and at the same time keep it illegal, I will take that. Time to be a bit more pragmatic.

Also, I am absolutely stunned by the Paul supporters. He has been in Washington for over 30+ years, and how many bills has he gotten passed for the "betterment of personal liberty"? The fact that people make him out to be a messiah figure is laughable, and if he was the man of the people, how in the world is her the only one that has not won a state yet?

Waiting for the conspiracy to begin

It shouldn't have to be about passing bills to protect personal liberty, thats what the constitution was there for. He voted against countless bills that degrade personal liberty and the constitution which gives him a good track record the past 30 years.

 

[EasyEJL]

Listen....to me this is not an issue on personal liberty. Steroids are not a concern for me, as if we have someone who can improve the economy (even slightly) and at the same time keep it illegal, I will take that. Time to be a bit more pragmatic.

Also, I am absolutely stunned by the Paul supporters. He has been in Washington for over 30+ years, and how many bills has he gotten passed for the "betterment of personal liberty"? The fact that people make him out to be a messiah figure is laughable, and if he was the man of the people, how in the world is her the only one that has not won a state yet?

Waiting for the conspiracy to begin

The fact that he hasn't gotten any significant ones passed isn't a measure of him, its an indictment of the rest of the leeches in congress. That doesn't mean he doesn't have it right, just the others are far more concerned with re-election and growing their power base than personal liberty or prosperity.

 

[southpaw23]

Listen....to me this is not an issue on personal liberty. Steroids are not a concern for me, as if we have someone who can improve the economy (even slightly) and at the same time keep it illegal, I will take that. Time to be a bit more pragmatic.

Also, I am absolutely stunned by the Paul supporters. He has been in Washington for over 30+ years, and how many bills has he gotten passed for the "betterment of personal liberty"? The fact that people make him out to be a messiah figure is laughable, and if he was the man of the people, how in the world is her the only one that has not won a state yet?

Waiting for the conspiracy to begin

Ron Paul is Ross Perot redux.

 

[AE14]

Ron Paul is Ross Perot redux.

"can I finish?"

 

[AE14]

In all honesty.....I have never, and will never understand the Paul attraction. Here is a guy who has been involved in politics for the last 30+ years, yet paints himself as this great outsider. That, in and of itself is funny, considering the sentiment around here of guilt by association.

If his support was so strong, and he had some great "movement", where are his supporters on election day?

 

[EasyEJL]

In all honesty.....I have never, and will never understand the Paul attraction. Here is a guy who has been involved in politics for the last 30+ years, yet paints himself as this great outsider. That, in and of itself is funny, considering the sentiment around here of guilt by association.

If his support was so strong, and he had some great "movement", where are his supporters on election day?

If I recall right, you yourself supported the idea of Santurm's that was voting for a bill that includes something you are diametrically opposed to because the major part of the bill you support as a part of how "politics is done". Paul is an outsider because he refuses to accept that doing politics the way it IS done is the way it SHOULD be done.

Given the complete lack of attention from major media, the fact that he does as well as he does is signs of his support level. And you know as well as I do that the majority of people are sheep, and pay no real attention to politics. "My grandfather was a ___, my dad was a ___, so i'm going to vote _____".

Starting with the Iowa straw poll, the headlines read "Michelle Bachman wins, Pawlenty comes in a respectable third, and the surprise was Rick Perry at 4th", leaving out Paul at 2nd. This has been repeated over and over again. If an outside non-partisan group did the same sort of positive/negative coverage analyssis like they did for the 2008 presidential election that showed mass media being far biased towards Obama, it would be even further off for this primary season for Paul. They just about only mention him if they can find something negative to say "Paul was looking like a grumpy old grandpa today" etc.

 

[AE14]

If I recall right, you yourself supported the idea of Santurm's that was voting for a bill that includes something you are diametrically opposed to because the major part of the bill you support as a part of how "politics is done". Paul is an outsider because he refuses to accept that doing politics the way it IS done is the way it SHOULD be done.

I will refer back to that conversation and my comment from former NYC Mayor Ed Koch, "sometimes when you vote, you do so with one hand holding your nose". IS done and SHOULD be done is irrelevant.

Given the complete lack of attention from major media, the fact that he does as well as he does is signs of his support level. And you know as well as I do that the majority of people are sheep, and pay no real attention to politics. "My grandfather was a ___, my dad was a ___, so i'm going to vote _____".

dont disagreee here at all. I know quite a few who vote only party lines.

Starting with the Iowa straw poll, the headlines read "Michelle Bachman wins, Pawlenty comes in a respectable third, and the surprise was Rick Perry at 4th", leaving out Paul at 2nd. This has been repeated over and over again. If an outside non-partisan group did the same sort of positive/negative coverage analyssis like they did for the 2008 presidential election that showed mass media being far biased towards Obama, it would be even further off for this primary season for Paul. They just about only mention him if they can find something negative to say "Paul was looking like a grumpy old grandpa today" etc.

There is a distinct reason. He is a fringe candidate at best. Some of his commentary on conspiracy theories will only allow him to appeal to a certain group. The rest (myself included) think he is ridiculous.

I do acknowledge btw, that I do agree on a fed audit.

 

[EasyEJL]

I will refer back to that conversation and my comment from former NYC Mayor Ed Koch, "sometimes when you vote, you do so with one hand holding your nose". IS done and SHOULD be done is irrelevant.

because Koch believes it, and you do, doesn't mean we should continue it ad ininitum. Its a huge part of why our federal government continues to grow in size and cost.

There is a distinct reason. He is a fringe candidate at best. Some of his commentary on conspiracy theories will only allow him to appeal to a certain group. The rest (myself included) think he is ridiculous.

I do acknowledge btw, that I do agree on a fed audit.

He's only a fringe candidate because what little coverage he gets in main media paints him that way. Somehow Obama's own self stated spiritual leader being a racist anti-american didn't leave him only appealing to a small group, largely because of the way mainstream media handled it.

Most of his major stances make more sense than continuing the way we've been for a long time

Do we need over 1000 military bases around the world? no, conventional warfare is dead
Would a gold/silver standard (and potentially removing the fed) stabilize our currency? there is no argument to that
Does returning power to the states to deal with local issues locally make sense? undoubtedly
Does the federal governmnet have any constitutional power to govern product safety? no, only to force disclosure of product risk, not to outlaw products or require safety minimums.
Does keynesian economics work? Evidence shows pretty contrary to that. Federal intervention blows bubbles bigger and makes booms last longer

the list goes on. The biggest problem is that in the US we all are pretty comfortable. Even at the poverty line, we live comfortably compared to 99% of the global population. So any change from the status quo sounds risky and scary, regardless of whether we would be living better in a generation or two.

 

[AE14]

because Koch believes it, and you do, doesn't mean we should continue it ad ininitum. Its a huge part of why our federal government continues to grow in size and cost.

you have a point, but you are not in the least bit facing reality. Change does not come like ripping off a bandaid. It is something that will move at a snails pace. To get things to work that you believe are for the best interest of your constituents and the country (and in some instances, yourself as well) you might approve a bill that has legislation tacked onto it that you dont like. We must deal with the reality of it E.

If legislation was passed (and it wont be) that limited the size of written bills, then we can talk. Until that happens, this will continue to be fruitless.

He's only a fringe candidate because what little coverage he gets in main media paints him that way. Somehow Obama's own self stated spiritual leader being a racist anti-american didn't leave him only appealing to a small group, largely because of the way mainstream media handled it.

Most of his major stances make more sense than continuing the way we've been for a long time

Do we need over 1000 military bases around the world? no, conventional warfare is dead
Would a gold/silver standard (and potentially removing the fed) stabilize our currency? there is no argument to that
Does returning power to the states to deal with local issues locally make sense? undoubtedly
Does the federal governmnet have any constitutional power to govern product safety? no, only to force disclosure of product risk, not to outlaw products or require safety minimums.
Does keynesian economics work? Evidence shows pretty contrary to that. Federal intervention blows bubbles bigger and makes booms last longer

the list goes on. The biggest problem is that in the US we all are pretty comfortable. Even at the poverty line, we live comfortably compared to 99% of the global population. So any change from the status quo sounds risky and scary, regardless of whether we would be living better in a generation or two.

Completely disagree...he is fringe because of the words that he utters (and recently has tried to go back on). Here is the thing....he is NO different than any other politician, except that he is not aligned at all with his party.

In terms of coverage, I wouldnt cover him either. He is a libertarian that is trying to pass himself off as something else. I wouldnt give him an invitation. However, go see yahoo today. He has a full feature there talking about his online presidency.

Thats one of the other funny aspects to Paul fans (in the generality) They talk a great game about getting out to vote, but most are too stoned to remember to vote :lol: