Ecdysterone - Any fans here?

Whacked said:
Sup Mix - Can someone run Ecdy for 6+ months (for example) or wil the body acclimate?
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While the LD50/acute toxicity is absurdly low and you COULD run it for that long, I favor shorter - targeted runs of about 7 weeks in duration, with 3-4 week breaks.

This is consistent with my overall philosophy on supplements - the body adapts to virtually any stimuli. The time/duration/results curve eventually flattens out. In English, the longer you run it, the less "punch" you'll feel from it.

In The Blueprint, we use it strategically after an environmental stress is imposed (actually, several). Being an adaptogen, it logically follows that it needs a stress to adapt to, in order to perform optimally. This is a critical distinction between androgens/anabolics and adaptogens. When it's manipulated in the correct fashion - that's when you see the kind of gains guys talk about running Blueprint.


That is NOT to say that for general health purposes it can't be run longer. I think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not a fan of shotgunning, never was. I much rather favor strategic use - to get the best bang for your buck when investing in a supplement.

Particularly, Ecdysterone...
 
Dumpenady said:
I'm trying out Cissus right now, however from what I have researched it does not regenerate cartilage. Thats why I find ecdy so interesting, because in this study it did regenerate cartilage. So thats the second anecdotal evidence I have found for ecdy having cartilage regeneration effects on humans. great. My guess would be Cissus is great for short term relief because of its anti inflammation effects, while ecdy might be great for long term cartilage regeneration.

Mind me asking what would you prefer in general:LG Subecdy or Megaturk (TrueTurk & Ecdisten)?
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I much prefer TrueTurk/Ecdisten and/or Ebol. Reason being, I'm not a fan of over-standardizing for 20-H, which I believe LG's product does. Now I don't want this to come across the wrong way - LG did some FINE work elucidating the UV vs. HPLC issues with 20-H coming out of China, among other places. The sublingual delivery I believe also holds merit - I just think they could have used a more efficacious Ecdy.

Personally speaking, I prefer "full spectrum' RCE and/or a well done Suma (25:1) extract. This, due to the fact it retains all of nature's "fingerprint" if you will. Let me give you just one example: There are other compounds in full spectrum RCE such as tannins and resins. One of these tannins mitigates your body's ability to convert glucose to triglyceride, and store it as fat. Once you start over-standardizing for what you think is the "active" - you've lost those other components of the plant and the merits they impart.

This isn't to say 20-H is completely useless. I've downed more 20-H than you can imagine. That means orally, transdermally, sub-lingual (two different types of cyclodextrin bases) etc. Only the transdermal at a gram/day imparted any noticeable benefits.

I'll be speaking on a future episode of SHR about Ecdy, how best to use it and why some of the current formula's have missed the boat in some ways. This isn't to say there are some EXCELLENT Ecdy's out there today. There are. There's even a standalone Laxogenin (sapogenin analog) up for sale that has some nice anti-inflammatory benefits. When it boils down to athletic enhancement, recovery, improving cellular energy substrates (and not just ATP) and growing more muscle though - I'm convinced it can be done better.

We shall see...

Your point about re-growing cartilage vs. anti-inflammation are well taken. A combination of both would be most interesting. I've used both concurrently, though to be honest wasn't using them for that express purpose.

Time to review my notes... :)
 
fightbackhxc said:
The BluePrint definitely goes into more detail about the usage of Ecdy which was very educational and something I had not heard.
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Thanks man, there is more on the way - much more.

Here's the short list of Ecdy's attributes. I'm currently working on something that leverages ALL of them, such that when you invest in Ecdy you'll reap the maximum benefit from your purchase:

- Improves the body's ability to stabilize blood sugar levels
- Stimulates incorporation of glycogen into both liver and muscle
- Repartitions nutrients into muscle and organ tissue yielding better muscle growth and repair
- Possesses potent cholesterol-lowering effect.
- Stabilizes phospholipid membranes, positively linked to many health benefits
- Cholesterol lowering/effects on bile secretion impart excellent benefits to the liver
- Analgestic properties and a potent antioxidative effect
- Anti-arrhythmia stabilizing properties.
- Potent anti-inflammatory properties
- Positive effect on the skin improving: keratinization, differentiation and acne.
- Works to control cortisol levels by reducing stressors such as chronic inflammation, preventing cortisol from being released
- Increases athletic performance by increasing work capacity, lean body mass, lung capacity, and generates a more favorable oxygen/CO2
exchange under stress
- Increases lean muscle tissue and reduces fat
- Combats fatigue/apathy
- Promotes a positive nitrogen balance and maintains a greater rate of protein synthesis

As you can see, the benefits are enormous. How can it do all this? I surmise the same way fish oil does - incorporation into the cell membrane. Whatever the case, this is one supplement that's "sneaky" per se. Here's what I mean by that: You get the good stuff, and it doesn't exactly whack you over the head while you're using it.

It's when you come off, that you'll find out just how good it is....
 
Mixelflick said:
Thanks man, there is more on the way - much more.

Here's the short list of Ecdy's attributes. I'm currently working on something that leverages ALL of them, such that when you invest in Ecdy you'll reap the maximum benefit from your purchase:

- Improves the body's ability to stabilize blood sugar levels
- Stimulates incorporation of glycogen into both liver and muscle
- Repartitions nutrients into muscle and organ tissue yielding better muscle growth and repair
- Possesses potent cholesterol-lowering effect.
- Stabilizes phospholipid membranes, positively linked to many health benefits
- Cholesterol lowering/effects on bile secretion impart excellent benefits to the liver
- Analgestic properties and a potent antioxidative effect
- Anti-arrhythmia stabilizing properties.
- Potent anti-inflammatory properties
- Positive effect on the skin improving: keratinization, differentiation and acne.
- Works to control cortisol levels by reducing stressors such as chronic inflammation, preventing cortisol from being released
- Increases athletic performance by increasing work capacity, lean body mass, lung capacity, and generates a more favorable oxygen/CO2
exchange under stress
- Increases lean muscle tissue and reduces fat
- Combats fatigue/apathy
- Promotes a positive nitrogen balance and maintains a greater rate of protein synthesis

As you can see, the benefits are enormous. How can it do all this? I surmise the same way fish oil does - incorporation into the cell membrane. Whatever the case, this is one supplement that's "sneaky" per se. Here's what I mean by that: You get the good stuff, and it doesn't exactly whack you over the head while you're using it.

It's when you come off, that you'll find out just how good it is....
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interesting, nice post.
 
Mixelflick said:
This isn't to say 20-H is completely useless. I've downed more 20-H than you can imagine. That means orally, transdermally, sub-lingual (two different types of cyclodextrin bases) etc. Only the transdermal at a gram/day imparted any noticeable benefits.
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Sounds incredibly expensive!
 
I have two bottles of IForce Ecdy and two bottles of LG Substerone. Which one would you use first and how much should I use a day. I have already used EBOL and really liked it, ity is just rather expensive compared to the others. But I did like it..SJ
 
ax1 said:
You can look into Celadrin for joint support, I wouldnt use cissus. Cissus is great for bone injuries but taking just for its anti-inflammatory properties concerns me as Id be worried about a buid up in bone deposits.
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Could you elaborate on your concerns? I haven't found any research pointing to a build up in bone deposits.
Thanks for the tip with Celadrin, quite cheap and seems to work well. Gotta have to research more about this stuff(and try it). :) I am a bit concerned about Celadrin though, since it is made by heating up fatty acids to 500 degrees and that sounds to me like transfatty acids, and those are evil... and those would be incorporated into every cell in the body and could cause all kind of trouble.

Right now I am wondering if total joint regeneration is possible - ecdy is the only sustance to date that I know of that completely regenerated cartilage (at least in rats)... Now if that would be combined with building blocks like glucosamine, chondroitin, and substances that suppress inflammation, such as celadrin, curcumin, cissus, msm, cat's claw, and something for joint lubrication (here also celadrin might work, and hyaluronic acid)... And not to forget to lower cortisol, for which ecdy and cissus seem to be great.

100% joint regeneration MIGHT ACTUALLY WORK with ecdy added... meaning to at one point to stop taking all supplements and have joints that are just as new. It's just that I guess noone yet has tried this combination yet. I think one problem with inflammation is that it is hard to get it completely away(and there is no regeneration as long as there is any inflammation left), and those anti-inflammatories target inflammations from totally different angles as far as I know, meaning might be worth combining.

I'm already taking glucosamine, chondroitin(low amounts though), high quality curcumin(longvida), lot's of msm, and o3's (probably too low amount too) but so far inflammation is small, but still there(only knees), and after a leg and or cardio training session moving up the stairs is hard and painful. However the inflammation is back to small after 1 day of doing nothing, thanks to my supps. But its still no actual regeneration of joint cartilage. I've added cissus since a few days, and my joints feel great, the damp pain with most movements is gone, but funny though, with some movements I have now a sharp pain, guess because of the lower cortisol. Gonna let the cissus time to start working full though.

That ecdy targets cortisol too is awesome. I've started cissus just recently but I was shocked to see that I lost a LOT of water in my abs and hips area. So that must be the cortisol... I wonder how many people that have trouble getting rid of those fat areas actually have a cortisol problem? Maybe thats a big part of ecdy's body shaping abilities.

There is just one problem with such an approach... its very expensive. :damnit: At least if a lot of those different anti-inflammatories are needed... and depending on the ecdy dose needed too.

Once my financial situation is better I'll try out a similar combo with ecdy and turk (gotta research the different pathways the various anti-inflammatories work to make sure I don't target the same pathways twice) and report back. Who knows maybe there is finally a way to heal cartilage.
 
tnubs said:
Sounds incredibly expensive!
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At the time, it was incredibly expensive (circa 1999). I special ordered a 50g bottle of pure 20-H from then Kilosports. Cost? It was well over $100, that I remember. A lot of hard lessons went into The Blueprint.

Expensive ones too. Gratefully, MANY have benefited from the knowledge contained therein. If you haven't already folks, please do give it your consideration. It'll save you a LOT of money/time...
 
SuppJunkie said:
I have two bottles of IForce Ecdy and two bottles of LG Substerone. Which one would you use first and how much should I use a day. I have already used EBOL and really liked it, ity is just rather expensive compared to the others. But I did like it..SJ
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I'm afraid both are standardized for 20-H only, but let's work with what you have...

I'd use the Substerone first, then the IForce Ecdy. With respect to dosing, I favor a training day pre-workout dose approximately 15 min prior (given it's a sublingual), especially given its demonstrated action on cyclic GMP (cGMP) - amongst other attributes. I'd also dose it immediately afterwards with your post workout drink.

On off days, I'd consider spreading the daily dose out at your highest protein feedings of the day, with at least one of those coming prior to bed with some cottage cheese.

I rather favor Ebol of the 3 you mentioned, but again am working with what you have. 20-H isn't useless, but it isn't optimal either. I'd love to tell you every Ecdy supp is just five stars - but that ain't the truth (at least in my humble opinion). I call it as I see it, and still favor full spectrum RCE (or Suma) vs. any isolated Ecdy. That goes for Turkesterone too btw, having used liberal amounts of TrueTurk. Great product, but still not my #1 choice.

9 times out of 10, nature doesn't f*k up - man does.
 
Nice info in here thank you. Question for you, I am working on bowflex machine and some select tehc dumbell for a while, ( gym to far away from home and having 2 young baby girls) would the blueprint still be benefical in my case?
 
Mixelflick said:
I call it as I see it, and still favor full spectrum RCE (or Suma) vs. any isolated Ecdy.
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at what dose would u recommend dosing unstandardized suma root? i have several bottles of swanson brand suma that is dirt cheap ($3 for 60 x 400mg caps). i notice it actually gives me a little bit of energy when i take a few and i have been using 8 pre workout (3.2 grams) the past few days.
 
I took substeronr about a year and a half back to great effect, but around the same time I had a substantial hair shed, probably unrelated(I was using revita shampoo at the time and others have reported the same thing) but because I'm paranoid I have stayed away from it since I finished the bottle.
 
rambo679 said:
I took substeronr about a year and a half back to great effect, but around the same time I had a substantial hair shed, probably unrelated(I was using revita shampoo at the time and others have reported the same thing) but because I'm paranoid I have stayed away from it since I finished the bottle.
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Good ecdy will improve hair and skin.
 
True, as there is this patent to use eddy as a hair loss product.
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In your opinion should I go the substerone way again or try a different product.
 
rambo679 said:
True, as there is this patent to use eddy as a hair loss product.
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In your opinion should I go the substerone way again or try a different product.
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If you like it run it, if you want to try different products to compare thats cool too. I dont think there is necessarily a definitive answer to this. Once you get experience in and maybe you come across various extracts you like you can even $$$tack.
 
tnubs said:
at what dose would u recommend dosing unstandardized suma root? i have several bottles of swanson brand suma that is dirt cheap ($3 for 60 x 400mg caps). i notice it actually gives me a little bit of energy when i take a few and i have been using 8 pre workout (3.2 grams) the past few days.
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You hit it on the head - 2 to 3 grams if using a non-standardized extract.

The increased energy you're experiencing is likely due to the high germanium content - which is unique to Suma. Germanium increases blood oxygen levels. It's used in Brazil to treat a number of conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome. Among its other constituents, allantoin (a regenerative muscle builder at the cellular level) may also be playing a role. The relevant constituents that pertain to this thread though include it's signature six intact pfaffic acids including Beta Ecdysterone. You'll sometimes see this genus referred to as pfaffia paniculata, simply another name for Suma.

Hope that helps...
 
Excellent detail ...

Truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge sharing
 
Mixelflick said:
You hit it on the head - 2 to 3 grams if using a non-standardized extract.

The increased energy you're experiencing is likely due to the high germanium content - which is unique to Suma. Germanium increases blood oxygen levels. It's used in Brazil to treat a number of conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome. Among its other constituents, allantoin (a regenerative muscle builder at the cellular level) may also be playing a role. The relevant constituents that pertain to this thread though include it's signature six intact pfaffic acids including Beta Ecdysterone. You'll sometimes see this genus referred to as pfaffia paniculata, simply another name for Suma.

Hope that helps...
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Now I am confused... does that mean we can use cheap suma root as an ecdy source? 3 grams/day is nothing price wise... if it even contains a blend of plant steroids thats even better, like you said?
 
Dumpenady said:
Now I am confused... does that mean we can use cheap suma root as an ecdy source? 3 grams/day is nothing price wise... if it even contains a blend of plant steroids thats even better, like you said?
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You could, but truth be told it's hit or miss with the non-standardized extracts and by having to take so much - it works out the same price wise. Sometimes, it's even MORE expensive vs. using a quality, standardized extract.

Problem being, the 25:1 extract is VERY rare (have only seen it in a handful of products) and it's usually just PART of an overall formula. Still, I much prefer it vs. having to roll the dice with my $....

Hope that helps!
 
gmonaaaay said:
bump
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I touched briefly on adaptogens during my last SuperHuman Radio Blueprint Power Hour, last Tuesday. For your convenience, I've included a link here:

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You'll hear me speak to two categories: Performance Adaptogens and "Broad Spectrum" adaptogens - and I feel it's critical to make the distinction. This topic sparked a LOT of interest - almost as much as when I spoke to ephedrine during prior episodes. Accordingly, I'll be going into more in depth information during this Tuesday's show.

Having said that, what would YOU like to know more about?

PERFORMANCE ADAPTOGENS (IMO)

Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract
Suma 25:1 (none of this 5:1 garbage being peddled)
Shilajit/Moomiyo/Mumie
Turkesterone/other isolated ecdysterones
Sapogenin analogs/i.e. Laxogenin derived from Diosgenin

BROAD SPECTRUM ADAPTOGENS

Korean Red Ginseng
MACA
Rhodia Rosea/Crenulata
Ashwaganda
etc.

Now, I don't usually do this but on this episode I'll be naming names of supp companies I consider to be importing the QUALITY stuff. I'm doing this, b/c there are a LOT of companies giving adaptogens a bad name by using Cyanotis Vaga as an Ecdy source, etc.

Let's hear it. I'll have your answers this next Tuesday 6/26/2012 at noon, ET>
 
Beyond A Century doesn't have it any more, been looking for some bulk form awhile now, I ran a cycle of this awhile back, I did notice I leaned out a bit, and actually think I gained a little size in my calves of all things, had a couple comments that I seemed bigger, (wich is always nice) but I didnt notice much except I really thing my calfs grew. I was wanting to try it again but BAC stopped carring it, I found some on one of those big we sell everything web sites, but I couldn't bring my self drop the cash. Love hearing about this stuff, and hearing people got results, I like the idea of it not messing with hormones
 
Which product these days has these and in the best ratio's and QUALITY

Mixelflick said:
PERFORMANCE ADAPTOGENS (IMO)

Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract
Suma 25:1 (none of this 5:1 garbage being peddled)
Shilajit/Moomiyo/Mumie
Turkesterone/other isolated ecdysterones
Sapogenin analogs/i.e. Laxogenin derived from Diosgenin
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Mixelflick said:
Problem being, the 25:1 extract is VERY rare (have only seen it in a handful of products) and it's usually just PART of an overall formula. Still, I much prefer it vs. having to roll the dice with my $....

Hope that helps!
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OK, excuse my ingnorance but when it comes to extracts its the higher the better right? 25:1>>>10:1. But, does taking 3x dose of a 10:1= 30:1?
 
daAMx said:
Ecdy is a solid product if you get the right extraction, and from maral rather than cyanotis vaga. Turkesterone + Suma is my personal favorite.
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I personally haven't used maral extract but have used the cyanotis vaga extract for the last year on and off and have seen an interesting transformation. Strength has gone up considerably. T-Bars went up 90% and no sign of slowing down and this with poor diet and lack of sleep however, weight went down. I put this down to stress and lack of sleep. For me, as a strength supplement it works bloody well. As a muscle mass builder? well there are too many variables involved in the process to put the spotlight on a single supplement like Ecdysterone. However, I would like to try Turkesterone in the near future to compare the two.
 
Cool said:
OK, excuse my ingnorance but when it comes to extracts its the higher the better right? 25:1>>>10:1. But, does taking 3x dose of a 10:1= 30:1?
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No worries brother, this is a complex topic and some confusion is understandable...

Generally speaking, you're correct when stating that when it comes to extracts, the higher the better. However, this isn't true in every case given it depends what you're standardizing/extracting for. Let's look at an example...

Early on (and even today), some companies believe the "active" in certain source genus of plants containing Ecdy is 20-Hydroxyecdysterone (20-H). Bear in mind, this is but ONE of 463 ecdysterones identified to date. If you standardize Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract for mostly 20-H, you lose the rest of the ecdysterones (and there are MANY in this genus), tannins and resins that have desirable qualities. For example, one of these tannins mitigates your body's ability to convert carbs to fat.

It's my OPINION that when extracting any given Ecdysterone source genus, that "natures fingerprint" be retained. Meaning you don't over-extract for any one particular ecdy you think is the "active". This is especially true in the case of 20-H. If you're going to go this route, a much better bet would be to extract/standardize the source genus Ajuga turkestanica for Turkesterone.

When formulating my product (Mass Pro Synthagen), I opted to retain nature's fingerprint. This, to take advantage of ALL of the benefits the various Ecdysterones the plant imparts. In fact, RCE has a very specific grouping of Ecdysteroids referred to as the "Levseins Complex", a grouping of 10-12 Ecdy's (depending upon who's literature you read) in unique ratios to each other. If you study my write up on it, you'll see how every other ingredient works hand in glove with RCE, to leverage every known attribute of RCE.

To be fair, I encourage you to experiment with other quality Ecdy's such as Thermolife's E-bol, bulk Ecdy powder extracts etc.. Pick one with a strong track record, and put it head to head against Synthagen. Establish objective diagnostic measures such as how much total tonnage you can move workout to workout, how fast you can recover/train productively again, take BMI measurements etc..

I'll leave it at that. From that point forward, make the call and use the Ecdy product that works best for YOU!
 
I have tried EBol and it did not work well with my body chem. It gave me anxiety. I figure I am just sensitive to something in it. I just am using their Ecdysten. Mixelflick, even though it is not Ebol, is it still a quality ecdy product? thanks.
 
Vegking said:
I have tried EBol and it did not work well with my body chem. It gave me anxiety. I figure I am just sensitive to something in it. I just am using their Ecdysten. Mixelflick, even though it is not Ebol, is it still a quality ecdy product? thanks.
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Sure does man.

I'm not sure what in E-bol may have been causing anxiety (my guess would be the Korean Red Ginseng Extract). However, Ecdysten is a quality RCE product and will likely serve you well, provided it's dosed appropriately.

Would be curious to know how you make out with it!
 
What about using straight up 4:1 Maral powder Extract? I read the entire thread in the last 4 hours and my mind is blown.
 
fxphrank said:
What about using straight up 4:1 Maral powder Extract? I read the entire thread in the last 4 hours and my mind is blown.
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Would depend on the source. Why not try the root and stew up a batch of tea for overall effect ? ECDY has become hard to get and the price vs performance ratio (for me) does not validate the expense, the product has just become outta reach.
 
I cap it and brew it. I just started last night however an instant effect I had was I slept so good! Im keeping a hand written log Ill be on it for 3 straight months.
 
LOL
Yup, great thread ;)

fxphrank said:
What about using straight up 4:1 Maral powder Extract? I read the entire thread in the last 4 hours and my mind is blown.
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Day 3 So far just sleep benefits.. Which I will take any take any day and will continue to buy cuz I haven't slept in in years.
 
So for 99% Rhaponticum Carthamoides the optimal dose is around 100mg, taken breakfast, pre and post workout and bed time with a high protein meal? What would be considered high? 30 grams or higher?
 
Interesting


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I have used Ecdy on numerous occasions all from different suppliers claiming they have the best. Thus far it hasn't worked for me. The Russians injected the stuff. I read a log from a pro BB who tried injecting and he said it worked for him. Mostly in the strength department.
 
From the ergolog link...."So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot.

Do any of those bodybuilding supplements contain enough ecdysteroids to actually have an effect"....nope

And then there is the cost to benefit ratio....at 8G / day that would break my bank.
 
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