hugry4more
Active member
carpee said:
True I will start a new thread on the.Bible is it accurate ill post link when I do. Get back to thread topic now ha
Christian Friends - End Time Prophecies?
- Thread starter Whacked
- Start date
True I will start a new thread on the.Bible is it accurate ill post link when I do. Get back to thread topic now ha
R1balla
Board Sponsor
the bible also says flee the appearance of sin. if you go into a grocery store and bought a case of beer, even though you only plan to have one or two and not get drunk, but somebody from your church saw you, dont you think they would get the wrong idea?
NuclearLaunch
Active member
carpee said:
That's what happens when you bring religion to any board. I see your point. I believe heat said he will start another thread.
R1balla
Board Sponsor
well, sure many signs have been happening for a long time, but two come to my mind that havent.
1.) the dramatic rise in technology and people will be able to go all across the world (thats only happening today)
2.) also, the Bible says that in the end times, the people of Israel will come back to their land and the generation that sees this will not pass. This happened in 1948
AE14
Board Sponsor
are you talking the actual mark "666"?
As an aside, and along with the "end times" discussion, yesterday was the 1-year mark for the ending of the Mayan long count calendar. We are in the last year of the current age, and according to the Mayan Dresden Codex, a flood is approaching
NuclearLaunch
Active member
AE14 said:
Mayans have said its not true. It's the end of a cycle of their calendar. I have talked with Mayans in Guatemala about this. It's bs. They have like 40 something calendars, one cycle ends on that day, but another cycle starts.
The closest thing we will ever get to "global government" is the UN, as for global currency, this simply won't happen. America is to arrogant to give up the dollar.
NuclearLaunch
Active member
Biblically Israel is for the Jews, but technically it isn't theirs now. Or it shouldn't be. We ( allied powers, mainly Great Britain and US ) gave the Jews land that we didn't own. We just kicked Iran or whoever it was out after WWII, so I would be pissed to if I was one of the middle east countries. I see why they are "at war" with each other. Do I support it, no. Do I get why, yeah.
B5150
Legend
No. I invited capree to post up a specific biblical end time prophesy quote for discussion. I have not yet seen it or did I miss it.
Post it in context in its entirety and we can analyze and discuss it.
vidapreta
Well-known member
What do they mean exactly when they say that the meek shall inherit the earth?? Are they talking about the meek Inheriting the earth during the end Times?? Serious question just in case that sounds like a joke.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk
AE14
Board Sponsor
Not entirely true. It depends on which "race" of Maya you are referring to. This specific calendar and catastrophe are from Yucatec Maya (many races of Maya at their height), typically found in the modern day tip of the peninsula. These were the folks at Chichen Itza.
The reference is that a flood will whip away this age and usher in a new one. The Maya were tremendous astronomical observers, and they based their predictions on the passage of stars. What NASA has confirmed is the universal alignment that will take place on 12/21/12, which seems almost impossible to know at the time of the Maya power.
I am not saying it is the end of the world by any stretch, but there is far more that goes into it.
NuclearLaunch
Active member
carpee said:
I'm not arguing for war im just pointing out why the middle east might be angry. I would too. I don't know anything about the 1967 borders so I can't comment on that. I don't think that the middle east should be able to take the land back either. They got screwed but everyone does at some point.
B5150
Legend
Daniel 2
Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
1 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers[a] to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, “I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.”
4 Then the astrologers answered the king,[c] “May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”
5 The king replied to the astrologers, “This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me.”
7 Once more they replied, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”
8 Then the king answered, “I am certain that you are trying to gain time, because you realize that this is what I have firmly decided: 9 If you do not tell me the dream, there is only one penalty for you. You have conspired to tell me misleading and wicked things, hoping the situation will change. So then, tell me the dream, and I will know that you can interpret it for me.”
10 The astrologers answered the king, “There is no one on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer. 11 What the king asks is too difficult. No one can reveal it to the king except the gods, and they do not live among humans.”
12 This made the king so angry and furious that he ordered the execution of all the wise men of Babylon. 13 So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.
14 When Arioch, the commander of the king’s guard, had gone out to put to death the wise men of Babylon, Daniel spoke to him with wisdom and tact. 15 He asked the king’s officer, “Why did the king issue such a harsh decree?” Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel. 16 At this, Daniel went in to the king and asked for time, so that he might interpret the dream for him.
17 Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 18 He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven 20 and said:
“Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
wisdom and power are his.
21 He changes times and seasons;
he deposes kings and raises up others.
He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning.
22 He reveals deep and hidden things;
he knows what lies in darkness,
and light dwells with him.
23 I thank and praise you, God of my ancestors:
You have given me wisdom and power,
you have made known to me what we asked of you,
you have made known to us the dream of the king.”
Daniel Interprets the Dream
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, “Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him.”
25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, “I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”
26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), “Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?”
27 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:
29 “As Your Majesty was lying there, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than anyone else alive, but so that Your Majesty may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”
46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”
48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.
Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
1 In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. 2 So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers[a] to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, “I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.”
4 Then the astrologers answered the king,[c] “May the king live forever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”
5 The king replied to the astrologers, “This is what I have firmly decided: If you do not tell me what my dream was and interpret it, I will have you cut into pieces and your houses turned into piles of rubble. 6 But if you tell me the dream and explain it, you will receive from me gifts and rewards and great honor. So tell me the dream and interpret it for me.”
7 Once more they replied, “Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will interpret it.”
8 Then the king answered, “I am certain that you are trying to gain time, because you realize that this is what I have firmly decided: 9 If you do not tell me the dream, there is only one penalty for you. You have conspired to tell me misleading and wicked things, hoping the situation will change. So then, tell me the dream, and I will know that you can interpret it for me.”
10 The astrologers answered the king, “There is no one on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer. 11 What the king asks is too difficult. No one can reveal it to the king except the gods, and they do not live among humans.”
12 This made the king so angry and furious that he ordered the execution of all the wise men of Babylon. 13 So the decree was issued to put the wise men to death, and men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to put them to death.
14 When Arioch, the commander of the king’s guard, had gone out to put to death the wise men of Babylon, Daniel spoke to him with wisdom and tact. 15 He asked the king’s officer, “Why did the king issue such a harsh decree?” Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel. 16 At this, Daniel went in to the king and asked for time, so that he might interpret the dream for him.
17 Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 18 He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven 20 and said:
“Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever;
wisdom and power are his.
21 He changes times and seasons;
he deposes kings and raises up others.
He gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to the discerning.
22 He reveals deep and hidden things;
he knows what lies in darkness,
and light dwells with him.
23 I thank and praise you, God of my ancestors:
You have given me wisdom and power,
you have made known to me what we asked of you,
you have made known to us the dream of the king.”
Daniel Interprets the Dream
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, “Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him.”
25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, “I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”
26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), “Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?”
27 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:
29 “As Your Majesty was lying there, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than anyone else alive, but so that Your Majesty may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”
46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”
48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court.
B5150
Legend
Now I could go and display my poor historical and theological abilities and try to present how much of this has already taken place or I can let my pastor. We had a great study on this and it was really cool theologically, historically and faithfully. I could link it as a downloadable in video or audio. Cool guy t'boot...
NuclearLaunch
Active member
R1balla said:
Yeah that's what I think.
The more I think about it, could the "end time" be for an individual person and refer to the judgement day? I do t see why it couldn't. It's all about how you interpret it. The end time of the world could simply mean person to person end time, my time on the world is over and now I have to be judged. Idk. That's what I have been thinking about on this topic lately, I know y'all think I'm wrong, just sugarcoat it.
AE14
Board Sponsor
R1balla said:
While I understand that this is your personal religious conviction, you must remember that the maya and the rest of Mesoamerica knew nothing of Christianity until the conquistadors came through and completely decimated them all in the name of god. Sorry, just had to bring it up.
With that said, the accuracy of the mayan astronomical predictions is staggering. Take a look at some of the stele at Copan, as well as their predictions of an eclipse 1000 years in advance. Truly mind blowing
Whacked
Well-known member
The Mayan Calender never "predicted" that there will be a huge disaster and the world will end in 2012. All that's happening is a new katun cycle will begin. This actually would have been celebrated by the ancient Maya and would have probably been commemorated by raising an extra impressive stela. It is telling that credible Mesoamerican experts dismiss this theory which is more a by-product of "pop" archaeology (i.e. pseudoarchaeology) than historical fact. I personally wish that Mayan scholars would speak out against this story more vocally, because proponents of the metaphysical theory are currently getting a lot more attention and misleading people who don't know any better.
Further Reading: Invalid Link Removed
Agreed but they also believed the world rested on the back of a GIANT ALLIGATOR
I don't dispute their excellent knowledge of astrology but it ends there for me.
All this Mayan-based doomsday rhetortic is as misplaced as Nostradamus's bizarre conveniently translated garbage. His predictions are couched in such murky language that they refer to anything and it's only after an event happens that people look at them and say, 'Oh, look! Nostradamus predicted that!" But did he? No, not really. You have to twist and interpret his words, and that means they aren't truly accountable.
Merlin confined his forecasts to the magic court of King Arthur. Merlin wasn't a real person, and Camelot was a mythical kingdom so nothing from that land of make believe pertained to our world.
Further Reading: Invalid Link Removed
Agreed but they also believed the world rested on the back of a GIANT ALLIGATOR
I don't dispute their excellent knowledge of astrology but it ends there for me.
All this Mayan-based doomsday rhetortic is as misplaced as Nostradamus's bizarre conveniently translated garbage. His predictions are couched in such murky language that they refer to anything and it's only after an event happens that people look at them and say, 'Oh, look! Nostradamus predicted that!" But did he? No, not really. You have to twist and interpret his words, and that means they aren't truly accountable.
Merlin confined his forecasts to the magic court of King Arthur. Merlin wasn't a real person, and Camelot was a mythical kingdom so nothing from that land of make believe pertained to our world.
While I understand that this is your personal religious conviction, you must remember that the maya and the rest of Mesoamerica knew nothing of Christianity until the conquistadors came through and completely decimated them all in the name of god. Sorry, just had to bring it up.
With that said, the accuracy of the mayan astronomical predictions is staggering. Take a look at some of the stele at Copan, as well as their predictions of an eclipse 1000 years in advance. Truly mind blowing
Whacked
Well-known member
Curious: If the Mayans knew so much about the future, why weren’t they ready when the Spaniards landed and took all their gold and made them slaves? They weren’t too far ahead of the curve on that one. LOL. Yet, they could predcit the end of mankind? Errrrrrrr.
Furthermore, how much faith can you put in a calendar that is carved in stone, weighs two tons, and doesn’t even have the name of your insurance agent on it?
Christians: The scriptures tell us that no one knows the exact time of the return of the Lord (Matthew 24:36), and I’m confident that that includes the Mayans. More importantly, we are told that we don’t even know for sure what tomorrow will bring — H1N1 virus, food poisoning, jets crashing into your Twin Towers? As such, forget about 2012 and start focusing on now. Personally, your end could happen this week. It’s important to be ready for it.
Furthermore, how much faith can you put in a calendar that is carved in stone, weighs two tons, and doesn’t even have the name of your insurance agent on it?
Christians: The scriptures tell us that no one knows the exact time of the return of the Lord (Matthew 24:36), and I’m confident that that includes the Mayans. More importantly, we are told that we don’t even know for sure what tomorrow will bring — H1N1 virus, food poisoning, jets crashing into your Twin Towers? As such, forget about 2012 and start focusing on now. Personally, your end could happen this week. It’s important to be ready for it.
Whacked
Well-known member
Even the almost mythical-fame garnered from Einstein's theory of relativity (E=mc2) which essentially serves as the epicenter for science in many circles has now been debunked. The results of the giant particle accelerator study in Geneva, contradict physics’ sacred cow: Albert Einstein’s postulate that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
How arrogant does one have to be to gamble their very souls and eternity away based on man-made finite logic when an infinte God "may" exist. If anything, take a chance on God - what do you have to lose? Once you see and feel Him working in your life, your life will change and your soul spared and eternal bliss in Heaven assured.
If atheism ends up being right, you'll be in a grave rotting away as worm food anyway. So no harm no foul.
If I, as a Christian am wrong, I'll rot alongside you. If I am right...well....it's only eternity...........no big deal. Talk about staggeringly AWFUL odds and consequences if you're wrong!
How arrogant does one have to be to gamble their very souls and eternity away based on man-made finite logic when an infinte God "may" exist. If anything, take a chance on God - what do you have to lose? Once you see and feel Him working in your life, your life will change and your soul spared and eternal bliss in Heaven assured.
If atheism ends up being right, you'll be in a grave rotting away as worm food anyway. So no harm no foul.
If I, as a Christian am wrong, I'll rot alongside you. If I am right...well....it's only eternity...........no big deal. Talk about staggeringly AWFUL odds and consequences if you're wrong!
AE14
Board Sponsor
With regard to the calendar, it is the end of a baktun...however, the catastrophe is mentioned on the last page of the Dresden Codex. The entire codex is based on planetary cycles, and specifically venus cycles. Additionally, there are weather forecasts that are used for their farming, etc...
The Maya understood the nature of space and movement better than many today
AE14
Board Sponsor
I assume you have not done too much research into what they thought of the Spanish. According to Maya legend, Kukulkan was going to return, and the prophesised date was the date of the Spanish return. This is also similar to what happened in Peru and Northern Mexico with the return of their god (sound familiar?) Quetzalcoatl. By the time that it was realized how these Conquistadors were going to destroy them and forcibly convert them, it was too late. All in the name of godCurious: If the Mayans knew so much about the future, why weren’t they ready when the Spaniards landed and took all their gold and made them slaves? They weren’t too far ahead of the curve on that one. LOL. Yet, they could predcit the end of mankind? Errrrrrrr.
Furthermore, how much faith can you put in a calendar that is carved in stone, weighs two tons, and doesn’t even have the name of your insurance agent on it?
Christians: The scriptures tell us that no one knows the exact time of the return of the Lord (Matthew 24:36), and I’m confident that that includes the Mayans. More importantly, we are told that we don’t even know for sure what tomorrow will bring — H1N1 virus, food poisoning, jets crashing into your Twin Towers? As such, forget about 2012 and start focusing on now. Personally, your end could happen this week. It’s important to be ready for it.
It is logic like this that turns most people off from Christians. The arrogance to assume that you know where we or anyone else is going, is downright offputting and shameful.Even the almost mythicical fame garnered from Einstein's theory of relativity (E=mc2) which essentially serves as the epicenter for science in many circles has now been debunked. The results of the giant particle accelerator study in Geneva, contradict physics’ sacred cow: Albert Einstein’s postulate that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
How many people will contineu to gamble their souls and eternity based on finite man-made logic when an infinte God exists. If anything, take a chance on God - what do you have to lose?
If atheism was right, you'll be in a grave rotting away as worm food anyway. No harm no foul.
If I, as a Christian am wrong, I'll rot alongside you. If I am right...well....it's only eternity...........no big deal. Talk about staggeringly AWFUL odds and consequences if you're wrong!
An all-loving creator would not be pleased by this type of behavior.
Whacked
Well-known member
I disagree. My all-loving Saviour encourages Christians to be strong in their faith and spread the Word with passion. Additionally, He will be pleased and I will be rewarded in Heaven for doing as He instructs.
If this "trust" and "confidence" in God is perceived as arrogance; so be it, but know that it is merely conviction of the heart speaking. My objective is not to "impress" man, but to serve God.
What you describe as arrogance. I label as conviction.
If this "trust" and "confidence" in God is perceived as arrogance; so be it, but know that it is merely conviction of the heart speaking. My objective is not to "impress" man, but to serve God.
What you describe as arrogance. I label as conviction.
AE14
Board Sponsor
I believe it is revelations 20:13 "being judged by ones works". Not just faith my friend
Also, regarding your conviction and its similarity to arrogance: 6 of 1, half a dozen of another
houstontexas
Well-known member
Even the almost mythical-fame garnered from Einstein's theory of relativity (E=mc2) which essentially serves as the epicenter for science in many circles has now been debunked. The results of the giant particle accelerator study in Geneva, contradict physics’ sacred cow: Albert Einstein’s postulate that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.
How arrogant does one have to be to gamble their very souls and eternity away based on man-made finite logic when an infinte God "may" exist. If anything, take a chance on God - what do you have to lose? Once you see and feel Him working in your life, your life will change and your soul spared and eternal bliss in Heaven assured.
If atheism ends up being right, you'll be in a grave rotting away as worm food anyway. So no harm no foul.
If I, as a Christian am wrong, I'll rot alongside you. If I am right...well....it's only eternity...........no big deal. Talk about staggeringly AWFUL odds and consequences if you're wrong!
Pascal's Wager
In the seventeenth century the mathematician Blaise Pascal formulated his infamous pragmatic argument for belief in God in Pensées. The argument runs as follows:
If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).
How should you bet? Regardless of any evidence for or against the existence of God, Pascal argued that failure to accept God's existence risks losing everything with no payoff on any count. The best bet, then, is to accept the existence of God. There have been several objections to the wager: that a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him; that the wager would apply as much to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods, leaving the the believer in any particular god in the same situation as the atheist or agnostic; that God would not reward belief in him based solely on hedging one's bets; and so on.
-- Keith Augustine
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Whacked
Well-known member
You're taking passages out of context.
We Christians are saved by faith, not through works. Jesus paid the price/atoned for our sins on the cross.
He is called the (sacrificial) LAMB of God for that reason.
When one accepts Jesus as their Savior, you are inviting the Holy Spirit into your heart and as such, change takes place and "actions" occur. That said, we will always be human and inhertently sinful but we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
Respectfully, am curious about your avatar: Are you into mistisicm? If so, please explain why or the rationalism of such practices.
Thanks
We Christians are saved by faith, not through works. Jesus paid the price/atoned for our sins on the cross.
He is called the (sacrificial) LAMB of God for that reason.
When one accepts Jesus as their Savior, you are inviting the Holy Spirit into your heart and as such, change takes place and "actions" occur. That said, we will always be human and inhertently sinful but we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
Respectfully, am curious about your avatar: Are you into mistisicm? If so, please explain why or the rationalism of such practices.
Thanks
Whacked
Well-known member
Fear of God is wise.
Let's put it this way - if you murder someone and in amateur fashion and knowingly leave a smoking gun of a paper trail; you are essnetially voluntarily giving up your right to fredom; are you not?
Fear of being prosecuted and imprisoned for life IS in fact a motivator for some to NOT commit crimes. Is it not?
You may want to kill someone who wronged you, but for some, the consequences of revenge are simply not worth it. So you are inspired to act legally correct to avoid the reprecussions.
Conversely, chosing to murder someone, you are accepting the penalties that accompany the crime.
You are not the law. You are also NOT forced to obey it - you are given FREE WILL to decide for your own. However, there are consequences no matter what you decide. Good or bad.
Similarly, God creates the law and gives us free choice to follow or not.
In the previous example about murder, the end result is not determined by HOW you made your decision to NOT commit murder, only via the fact that you chose not to.
If you did NOT murder b/c you simply feel it is WRONG = No jail time.
If you did NOT murder b/c you are fear the cionsequences = No jail time.
Fear of God leading you to God is fine BY God. He states that whoever accepts His Son as Saviour is saved. He didnt say based on this reason and not the other.
This may be a horrible example but I hope this makes sense?
PS: He created the entire Universe - he can squash you like a bug - again, fear is wise.
Speaking of arrogance.......someone being so entrenched in humanism that he/she cannot accept he/she is not highest on the totem pole and that surely, he/she is the apex of all creation in the universe. WOW
I'm headed out of town for Christimas. Merry Christmas to all of you. Im out.
Let's put it this way - if you murder someone and in amateur fashion and knowingly leave a smoking gun of a paper trail; you are essnetially voluntarily giving up your right to fredom; are you not?
Fear of being prosecuted and imprisoned for life IS in fact a motivator for some to NOT commit crimes. Is it not?
You may want to kill someone who wronged you, but for some, the consequences of revenge are simply not worth it. So you are inspired to act legally correct to avoid the reprecussions.
Conversely, chosing to murder someone, you are accepting the penalties that accompany the crime.
You are not the law. You are also NOT forced to obey it - you are given FREE WILL to decide for your own. However, there are consequences no matter what you decide. Good or bad.
Similarly, God creates the law and gives us free choice to follow or not.
In the previous example about murder, the end result is not determined by HOW you made your decision to NOT commit murder, only via the fact that you chose not to.
If you did NOT murder b/c you simply feel it is WRONG = No jail time.
If you did NOT murder b/c you are fear the cionsequences = No jail time.
Fear of God leading you to God is fine BY God. He states that whoever accepts His Son as Saviour is saved. He didnt say based on this reason and not the other.
This may be a horrible example but I hope this makes sense?
PS: He created the entire Universe - he can squash you like a bug - again, fear is wise.
Speaking of arrogance.......someone being so entrenched in humanism that he/she cannot accept he/she is not highest on the totem pole and that surely, he/she is the apex of all creation in the universe. WOW
I'm headed out of town for Christimas. Merry Christmas to all of you. Im out.
NuclearLaunch
Active member
Whacked said:
faith without action is nothing. We are saved by our actions also. I love the last two post you made but I disagree with you there unless I interpreted it wrong.
Merry Christmas.
houstontexas
Well-known member
That is how it seems to me. A lot of Christians fall back on that kind of thinking as a reason to believe when they have exhausted other reasons or excuses for why they believe. Whacked exhibits that feeling in his statement. I think it is a horrible idea to include that as a reason for your faith. The "If I'm wrong I lose nothing" attitude is far from true. If you are wrong then you lose a life of freedom, you spend your life living for a "God" that never existed, & the list goes on. Sure you may have lived a "good" life b/c you chose to follow Christianity which I think has many good aspects like various other religions or belief systems, but you could have lived an equally "good" life while also dealing with the world as it really is.
AE14
Board Sponsor
nothing out of context, just giving you a quote from your own text that contradicts your statement.
In terms of my avatar, I am not sure how familiar you are with art history. It is from a painting by Bosch titled "Garden of Earthly Delights". It is a character from the hell panel of the triptych
Couldnt have said it better myself. Also....merry christmas
reps to you
hugry4more
Active member
Are can't remember the Scripture but it says.. faith with out works is dead.
NuclearLaunch
Active member
Yeah I don't know exact quotes and everything but I also know that is in there.
Flaw
Well-known member
I disagree, both is needed. You can't just have faith and not act like a christian.
James 2:26 "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead"
NuclearLaunch
Active member
Flaw said:
I think meant it in a different way. Or meant something else.
Whacked
Well-known member
We are saved by grace and grace alone. Once saved, the Holy Spirit enters our body/soul and as such, our actions change.
Man cannot be redeemed BUT thru the blood of Jesus. It is nothing WE do, and everything Jesus does that grants us eternal salvation.
If someone TRULY accepts Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, he WILL change. It will be impossible NOT to.
Man cannot be redeemed BUT thru the blood of Jesus. It is nothing WE do, and everything Jesus does that grants us eternal salvation.
If someone TRULY accepts Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, he WILL change. It will be impossible NOT to.
Whacked
Well-known member
Agreed
BUT
My posts were in the context of Salvation
IF one is truly saved, and convicted by the Holy Spirit - works/actions WILL certainly follow
BUT
My posts were in the context of Salvation
IF one is truly saved, and convicted by the Holy Spirit - works/actions WILL certainly follow
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Agreed
BUT
My posts were in the context of Salvation
IF one is truly saved, and convicted by the Holy Spirit - works/actions WILL certainly follow
Correct. I can't see why people keep insisting on man's efforts to salvation instead of Christs, especially after reading something like what Romans 3:11-20 has to say:
"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless...There is no fear of God before their eyes.
(v19) Now we know that whatever the law says, its says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (v20)Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
I had to put in italics the words and phrases that I wanted emphasis on. It seems this passage could sum up the whole purpose of "laws" and obeying them. Thing is..when you say "there is works involved in salvation". True, there is. But it isnt your works. It's the work of Christ in His life and death, silly. The OT Psalmists knew this (Psalm 77:12), why can't a NT "Christian" understand this? To think there is something valuable that you can bring to the table for salvation and righteousness makes you no different from the Pharisee's in Jesus day. In fact, the best verse to blatantly explain this is found in Romans 4:4-5, which says:
"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
And later Paul also mentions something of similar topic in chapter 6 of Romans. Verse 23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the Gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Shame on those who think they have something to "add" to Christ's salvation! I understand if you are Jewish, Islamic or atheist. This response is not directed at such people, but rather I'm talking to Christians who make following Christ into just another religion like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. Christians aren't part of a religion, we are freed from religion! How could this be "good news" if we are just like everyone else, being enslaved to the law to make things right with an angry God!?!?
The root definition of religion (in the context of salvation) - 1150–1200; Middle English religioun (< Old French religion ) < Latin religiōn- (stem of religiō ) conscientiousness, piety, equivalent to relig ( āre ) to tie, fasten ( re- Invalid Link Removed + ligāre to bind, tie; compare
"To bind"...but to what? Here's a wild guess (based on Paul's teachings)...to be bound to laws. And to completely sum it up, here is scripture again from Romans 3:21-24:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Where, O' professing Christian, does your efforts contribute to salvation according to that passage above ^^^??
AE14
Board Sponsor
again....you are picking and choosing which verses you believe in. Kinda like a "menu" of beliefs. At the end of the day, the text that you believe in clearly states that man is judged on his works as well, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. At this point, the discussion is fruitless as you are outwardly refusing to acknowledge what your own text states.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Yes man is judged by his own works! HOLY CRAP you UNDERSTAND! BUT RIGHTEOUSNESS comes from FAITH IN CHRIST! Christ gives us His righteousness which is not something men can earn!
You've got one half of the point, but you are forgetting the other half, or "the good news". Which is having Christ's salvation.
And how the heck could I (or Whacked) pick and choose from the same freaking book written by the same author, and speaking on the same topic, and having the same context!?!?
AE14, you're Jewish right? I meant no disrepect out of that statement ^^^. I'm just excited that someone understands that we'll be judged according to our deeds. It's the first step to believing in Christ, honestly.
ax1
Legend
I know alot of people (personal and famous,) that are either athiest or from other religious that are also righteous. If they dont believe in Jesus where is this righteousness coming from if you say it only comes from "faith in Christ?"
And if believing in Christ is the first step...whats really more important, faith in christ or being righteous? Some people have faith in Christ and never manage to step into becoming righteous. To me action is more important than faith, its what you do not what you try to act out what you believe.
NuclearLaunch
Active member
fueledpassion said:
He has said before that he is atheist I believe. Deeds are everything to me. Faith is important also and that is why I have my faith but I believe man get achieve Gods graces through deeds.
fueledpassion
Well-known member
Well, I'll just say this - according to the New Testament, bearing the righteousness of God is by faith in Christ. Romans 4:1-5. And in that text, Paul (who was a scholarly Jew) referenced Abraham as the example of righteousness by faith and not by works. It says:
"(v1) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? (v2) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about - but not before God. (v3) What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." v4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. v5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
And again later, Paul talks about man's work is sin, which sin's wages = death (hell), but the Gift of God (Christ's record of perfection) = salvation.
And to answer the other two questions:
Question #1: If they dont believe in Jesus where is this righteousness coming from if you say it only comes from "faith in Christ?"
Answer: A man can only boast about his righteousness when compared to another, imperfect man. However, if he compares himself to the standards of God, which is perfection, he'll always fall short of God's glory and never be looked upon as righteous in his own efforts. Romans 3: 23-24 ( I quoted this in a post above )
Another illustration. For example, I could make the statement that "I'm really an exceptionally strong man when it comes to weight lifting". And compared to the average joe, yes, I am pretty darn strong especially for my size. But if Ronnie Coleman were the standard of "strong", then guess what? I fall short miserably. People often compare themselves to one another, and then say that their passage to heaven is based upon their righteousness on earth. Problem is, heaven is not a place created nor governed by humans. It's God's house. His temple. And it's perfect, which means that only perfection is allowed to stay in His house. The very fact that He threw Satan out of heaven after sinning against Him is consistent with that fact. So then, we need a righteousness that God acknowledges, which isn't how good we look compared to one another. Rather, how good do we look compared to God is the key to understanding the need for Christ.
Question #2: And if believing in Christ is the first step...whats really more important, faith in christ or being righteous?
Answer: I sort of answered that question right at first with the scripture that indicates that faith in Christ gives us a righteousness OF GOD.
I will say this however, those who have faith (trust) in their own works can in fact be righteous...but only to man's point-of-view. That sort of righteousness will not be acknowledged by God. God is comparing you to Himself, since after all, "God created man in His own image" (Gen. 1:27)
I personally believe that if any man thinks he is better than the next and that because he is "good" he is favored by God - those men are in denial of the truth. They refuse to acknowledge their shortcomings and sins of the heart, much like the Pharisee's in the NT.
Feel free to keep the questions coming. I could use much more references in Scripture and if you like, I could include more OT references to help support my take on things.