ECDY Supplements
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JudoJosh
Pro Virili Parte
What are your thoughts on Eric (LG) claim that ecdysterone is NOT orally active and is rapidly cleared by the liver? LG claims their Sublingual delivery method is more efficient and by dozing sublingually it will bypass the liver and deliver the ecdysterone directly to the muscles.
In your opinion is there any truth to this?
Also their ecdy appears to be standardized to - HydroxyPropyl Beta Cyclodextrin, 20-Hydroxy-ecdysterone & 6-Keto Diosgenin, is this along the same lines of what you were saying by "over" standardization?
Thanks for your input
In your opinion is there any truth to this?
Also their ecdy appears to be standardized to - HydroxyPropyl Beta Cyclodextrin, 20-Hydroxy-ecdysterone & 6-Keto Diosgenin, is this along the same lines of what you were saying by "over" standardization?
Thanks for your input
Mixelflick
Active member
Mixel: Killer info
Full disclosure please. Any relationship to any of the aforementioned companies in any capacity?
FULL DISCLOSURE DELIVERED: I have ZERO affiliation, re-numeration etc with any company, but for the record and to answer your question specifically - Thermolife, Tonovara or IForce. In fact, The BP was endorsed by Thermolife after one of their board reps (Bane), ordered a copy. I thought, "uh oh, I don't mention Thermolife/Ebol in The BP. Not ONCE..."
You know what they did?
Bane, Ron Kramer (CEO of Thermolife) etc. came out and ENDORSED The BP, then gave me the opportunity to discuss its merits on their forum. Let's call it as we see it: Class move by a class company.
I've been accused of being in bed with Thermolife, Muscle and Sports Science, Tonovara, Biotivia, Molecular Nutrition etc.. I really, really wish this were the case b/c lord knows, nobody buys a 30 day supply of BP every month. I do however, have my favorite supps and respective companies. I don't like all of what MASS/Thermo/Biotivia etc. make, but I do think these and other companies have some excellent products/category killers.
In other words, I call it as I see it...
The truth eventually sets you free - or bites you in the a$$. I know exactly where I stand when I lay down at night; I've never taken a penny from any supplement company.
NOT ONE
Hope that answers your question...
mattrag
Legend
I have to agree 100% with this. Just talk to Rob via PM and stuff, he's really down to earth and has his opinions and views on everything. Like we all do. In regards to supps he suggests supps. And tells you how good they can be because there is some research out there. But he doesn't say stuff like "Would you like to gain 5lbs of LBM and lose 10lbs of fat?!!" He says you don't need them and on your first run you dont need supps but he understands supp addys like us that need to be taking pills... (Or maybe its just me), so he makes recommendations and tries to get us whats best for our money in his opinion.
Im cannot validate his getting money from these companies but I will say that I trust what Rob says.
Mixelflick
Active member
First and foremost, I think the world of the work Eric/LG did on exposing the UV vs. HPLC 20-H fiasco. They certainly did their homework, and it showed. If you dig deep enough, this issue actually came up/was also encountered and discussed by Chuck Rudolph (Scivation), with respect to their "Anagen" product. Believe this product has since been dis-continued...
Listen closely at 34:30 concerning UV vs. HPLC...
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You'll note that while Scivation feels strongly you need only extract for 20H and it matters not what genus it comes from....this appears to have been based on their discussion with a Russian researcher's comments, via email correspondence. You may also have picked up on the fact, that he was using a 50% Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract - to obtain favorable results.
Hmmm... wonder if the other 50% of the material from Lueza/Maral Root (synonyms for RCE) contributed? "Maral" btw, is the Russian word for "deer", in the region of Siberia RC was originally discovered.
There is much confusion though, even in this interview where he cites "THOUSANDS" of ecdysterones. To be clear, there are 454 known ecdysterones to date, per this outstanding resource: Invalid Link Removed. Regardless, he gave an otherwise solid interview, citing much overlooked properties that companies are missing the boat on (i.e. its glucose disposal properties - superb).
Now, with respect to Ecdysterone not being orally active, I'm afraid I'd have to disagree. I'm not doing so to be combative, but consider the following, from LaFont's 2003 Paper in Insect Science - "Practical uses for ecdysteroids in mammals including humans: an update" Lafont R.
and Dinan L.
"In the case of humans, two different studies have been performed. Simon and Koolman(1989) analysed the pharmacokinetics of E and 20E (given orally, 0.2 mg/kg b.w.) to a male volunteer, by monitoring with a radioimmunoassay the subsequent plasma and urine titres. This gave an effective half-time (EHT) of elimination of 4 hours for E and 9 hours for 20E. In lambs, EHT for 20E was shown to depend strongly on the mode of administration, with values of 0.4, 0.2 and 2 hours after oral, intravenous and intramuscular administration, respectively (Simon and Koolman, 1989). The method used did not allow the detection of metabolites, if present. The half-life seems shorter in smaller mammals, with reported values of 8.15 min for 20E in mice (Dzukharova et al., 1987). More recently, Albanese et al. (2000) found a plasma half-life of 48 min for ponA in mice after intraperitoneal injection of 750 µg of this compound.
So we see here in a HUMAN, oral dosing results in the compound making it into plasma/circulation. If it didn't, they wouldn't have been able to pick anything up on the radio-immuneassay - and therefore wouldn't have been able to gauge half life. In terms of Ecdysterone being orally administered to livestock, furry rodents of all sorts - it's done all the time. Dissolving in apricot resin tends to be a favorite, when administering to rats. Also, there's a veterinary preparation (2 actually), one of which is added to animal feed (BCL PHYTO - anabolic) and a related product (BIOINFUSION - injectible, moreso to deal with sickness/parasites). I'm being respectful here - I see no evidence Ecdy is NOT orally active.
I do agree with LG, in the respect that oral isn't optimal for all Ecdy's. 100% agreement in fact, that 20-H is a waste orally (in humans) for performance enhancement. The goal of bypassing the liver though, is but one company's/person's strategy. In fact, oral Ecdysterone benefits the liver tremendously. For example, from the same paper...
Ecdysteroids stimulate hepatic functions: 20E accelerates recovery after hepatitis induced by heliotrine treatment (Syrov et al., 1981b). 20E and other ecdysteroids (turkesterone, cyasterone) administered ( 1 0 mg / k g ) t o r a t s wi t h h e p a t i t i s i n d u c e d b y s u b c u t a n e o u s i n j e c t i o n o f c a r b o n t e t r a c h l o r i d e p r e v e n t it s hepatotoxic action (Syrov et al., 1992). Moreover, a pretreatment with 20E (5 mg/kg) for one week will reduce the effects of a subsequent heliotrine treatment (Badal’yants et al., 1996)...."
HPBCD is the correct cyclodextrin complex (if you're interested in going that route). But yes, when referring to isolating TRUE ecdysterones from a given genus (20-H, Cyasterone, Rubrosterone etc.), that's where I feel many are going awry. Each time, XYZ company thought for sure they had found the "active", responsible for the plethora of Ecdy's benefits. Subsequent to each attempt, the test of time bore out that the magic never fully materialized. What then, may explain the broad range of RCE's beneficial effects? Incorporation into the cell membrane, via the PI3K-AKT pathway (IMO).
And why do I believe this? You need look no further than fish oil, it's same broad range of benefits and how it "builds" into your cell membrane's structure.
In the Blueprint, we also know what else juices this pathway - and how to leverage it, in order to radically accelerate muscle growth. It rains PR's on The BP forums every day, and that's no accident...
The sapogenin analogs (often erroneously referred to/painted with a broad brush) and referred to generically as "6-keto diosgenin", are another story....
Mixelflick
Active member
Ebol actually contains Ecdysterone derived from Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract, isolated Turkesterone (from Ajuga Turkistanica) and an Ecdy analog -that being 25-R or what Thermolife refers to as Rostanabol™. The latter is closer in structure to the sapogenin analogs (Compounds I-!V), cited in the former Soviet literature (Dr. Syrov co-authored).
The formula is slanted toward the protein synthesis/adaptogenic and anti-oxidant related effects of Ecdy IMO, as these are most valued by the sports nutrition market. We do have unique dosing guidelines for E-bol in The Blueprint, vs. other Ecdy supplements given certain formula differences. I can tell you that Ebol has an incredibly solid track record with BP users and most are very happy with the product.
As far as 25-R appearing only in E-bol, I'm not quite sure. I do know it was claimed to be present in one of Anabolic Xtreme's products (MassFx), among others. Thermolife has theirs custom made, if I'm not mistaken. Now, what I've really been looking for is a standalone. These USED to be widely available (related sapogenin analogs), but have since disappeared from the market. Fortunately for me though, I was sent bottles of the former ZOE DISCOVERIES (not Labs) Zebutol, "Ecdysterone" and Maxwell Research's "Anabolica" products some time ago.
Two of the 3 (Anabolica and ZOE's "Ecdysterone") are the famous/infamous Laxogenin, or 5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin (acetate in one product's case). You can extract these from (believe it or not), the Tribulus plant as well as Smilax Sieboldi. It's uber expensive to do so though, which is likely why Thermo has 25-R (similar in efficiency/function to Laxogenin) synthesized. The chemist behind the Laxogenin raws has since passed away, rest his soul. However, his formula's didn't die with him...
mattrag
Legend
Ebol actually contains Ecdysterone derived from Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract, isolated Turkesterone (from Ajuga Turkistanica) and an Ecdy analog -that being 25-R or what Thermolife refers to as Rostanabol™. The latter is closer in structure to the sapogenin analogs (Compounds I-!V), cited in the former Soviet literature (Dr. Syrov co-authored).
The formula is slanted toward the protein synthesis/adaptogenic and anti-oxidant related effects of Ecdy IMO, as these are most valued by the sports nutrition market. We do have unique dosing guidelines for E-bol in The Blueprint, vs. other Ecdy supplements given certain formula differences. I can tell you that Ebol has an incredibly solid track record with BP users and most are very happy with the product.
As far as 25-R appearing only in E-bol, I'm not quite sure. I do know it was claimed to be present in one of Anabolic Xtreme's products (MassFx), among others. Thermolife has theirs custom made, if I'm not mistaken. Now, what I've really been looking for is a standalone. These USED to be widely available (related sapogenin analogs), but have since disappeared from the market. Fortunately for me though, I was sent bottles of the former ZOE DISCOVERIES (not Labs) Zebutol, "Ecdysterone" and Maxwell Research's "Anabolica" products some time ago.
Two of the 3 (Anabolica and ZOE's "Ecdysterone") are the famous/infamous Laxogenin, or 5-alpha-hydroxy-laxogenin (acetate in one product's case). You can extract these from (believe it or not), the Tribulus plant as well as Smilax Sieboldi. It's uber expensive to do so though, which is likely why Thermo has 25-R (similar in structure to Laxogenin) synthesized. The chemist behind the Laxogenin raws has since passed away, rest his soul. However, his formula's didn't die with him...
Interesting, my guess is your working on trying to instigate a new formula with that in it eh?
ax1
Legend
Ebol = (25 R)-5alpha-Spirostan-2alpha, 3beta, 5alpha-Triol-6-OH
Mass FX = 25R-Diol™ [(3b,5a,6a,25R)-spirostan-3,6-diol] and 25R-X™ [(25R)-6-Oxospirost-5-en-3b-ol
Do you know what the difference is?
I thought the one from Mass FX originated from trib.
Mixelflick
Active member
Um, no. I was simply made aware of the fact that those formula's still existed/may be made again at some point. I've never done a pill, powder or potion. Not saying I'd never do one, but that's not my thing really. I do consult on formulation, etc. There are plenty of companies that make supps a lot better than I ever could, so why play if you can't be #1?
Much remains to be seen, but I'm hoping to get a sample here soon. Might be fantastic, might be junk. I haven't used it yet so I can't say...
Mixelflick
Active member
You know KJI, I don't know that AX ever made it clear where they were getting there's. I think you're right though, about the fact it wasn't synthesized as Thermolife's is. Given trib has been around for ages and the chemists and so forth in the supp biz are used to working with it, you might be right.
As to the differences between the two, there is much confusion. By the nomenclature, this alpha/beta isomers are different... and that would really be a better question for someone like PA. However, the real difference in my mind boils down to AX's claim (if I recall correctly) of androgen receptor stimulation, in the case of their 25-R product. Such is not the case with the sapogenin analogs (of which Thermo's appears to be - most closely related to "Compound II"), in the former Soviet literature. By all accounts (including a competitive binding study done at Baylor), there is no receptor binding MOA for these products.
I think the take home message is this: 25-R's and related sapogenin analogs exist today (or did, a short while ago in some products cases), however I never saw a standalone, after "Anabolica" stopped being manufactured. It's therefore quite difficult to sort out what's working. Is it the test booster in some products? The RCE? The Turkesterone? Some people don't care. I do. Here's why... these 25-R's/sapogenin analogs are VERY efficient, meaning doses as low as 10-30mg/day are cited as effective in the literature.
You put that into a cyclodextrin medium, and you'd know right quick. I'd love to see it done...
ax1
Legend
Cant believe Im back in this thread somehow, lol
LG has cyclodextrein 25r now just what you were loving to see,. Have you considered it although I know you dislike 20H?
Mixelflick
Active member
I have, although I'm trying to get Thermolife's 25-R standalone. I think a standalone is the only objective way to go about evaluating. I'm working on 3 new Ecdy related projects right now though...
1.) Mass Pro Synthagen optimal use protocol/stacks with various other products (Ebol, XFA etc.)
2.) Nailing down who has the real Laxogenin (testing is underway)
3.) A sterile, RCE solution
More information, when it becomes available...
ax1
Legend
I have, although I'm trying to get Thermolife's 25-R standalone. I think a standalone is the only objective way to go about evaluating. I'm working on 3 new Ecdy related projects right now though...
1.) Mass Pro Synthagen optimal use protocol/stacks with various other products (Ebol, XFA etc.)
2.) Nailing down who has the real Laxogenin (testing is underway)
3.) A sterile, RCE solution
More information, when it becomes available...
If 20H doesnt work for you, its kinda like doing it standalone anyways, lol
MPS looks very interesting by the way.
Mixelflick
Active member
Thanks man!
Synthagen will benchmark an entirely new category - mRNA Translation Accelerators. It does a lot more, but I formulated such given mRNA Translation is the rate limiting step, in growing new muscle/protein synthesis.
We've all heard it before and it's true; FOOD is the most anabolic substance on earth. How many of us eat "perfectly" day in and day out though? I don't, and as much as I/you put into it, there's always room for improvement.
Oftentimes (too often), I've been on the road or find myself in a circumstance where I sit down to a less than optimal meal. Typically, this involves too many carbs, not enough (or a lower quality) protein and likely some dessert, if it's with a group of people. You know, to be "sociable" at a business dinner/family function, for example.
What Synthagen accomplishes is as follows: You pop a full serving 10 minutes prior to that meal:
*Immediate jump in protein synthesis. ProtogeneX floods the bloodstream with a very precise ratio of ALL essential amino acids. Hell, if you're stuck with a baloney grinder, Synthagen will take that amino acid profile from "sucks" to "perfect" in minutes.
*The crap/overabundance of carbs in this meal is the real problem, leading to a BIG insulin surge. Synthagen's RCE and Orotic Acid are POWERFUL glucose disposal agents, positively regulating blood sugar and depositing more of that glucose as glycogen in the muscle tissue.
*If you know you're going to get an insulin surge, you might as well leverage it to carry performance enhancing nutraceuticals into the muscle cell. By taking Synthagen just prior, you leverage this insulin surge to carry the bricks that build muscle (ProtogeneX), RCE, OA, PeakATP, Beta-Alanine, Magnesium Asparate and TMG into the muscle cell!
It sure beats carrying baloney and a diet coke into the muscle cell... Invalid Link Removed
*Back to the protein synthesis, Synthagen's RCE/ProtogeneX/OA/Magnesium complex ensures the amino acids in circulation make their way to the ribsome to BUILD MUSCLE. Every one of those juices protein synthesis far moreso than just downing EAA's alone. Try it and see...
*PeakATP goes to work increasing bloodflow to the ENTIRE body. This is critical, given the nutrients in your diet are carried by such, not to mention Synthagen's other goodies.
*OA contributes AGAIN, by re-synthesizing ATP 3 different ways/building nucleotide pools. Important, insofar as these pools are "tapped" over and over, especially under conditions where ATP is drawn upon fast and furious (as seen in anaerobic events, like weight training).
*TMG will assist in maximizing muscle cell hydration (muscle is 70% water!), amplifying protein synthesis, sparing choline/lecithin for fat loss AND - recycling protein synthesis to keep it going longer and stronger.
In this example, Synthagen is taking a near junk food/less than optimal meal and positively modulating your body chemistry to turn it into a meal that'll BUILD muscle. It does so, by vastly improving the quality of "bricks" you give your body to build that muscle, steering the macro-nutrients toward the muscle cell (amino acids, glucose, ATP, Carnosine, beta-alanine etc.) and leveraging insulin's positive attributes, while mitigating the downsides (fat storage).
It's not a miracle, just a well thought out adjunct to the most anabolic substance known; FOOD. And if you think that's something, try Synthagen with QUALITY foods/diet. Many are going to be pleasantly surprised, at just how much muscle you can build, how much better you feel even while cutting/re-comping.
And oh, they're already stacking it with Ebol and XFA....Invalid Link Removed
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