My take on IGF-1

Patrick Arnold

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Yep, I dissolved it in 1ml of AA. So it's a small amount of liquid. :)
And yes, I know cartilage has very little blood flow, and that is the main reason why it's difficult to rehab it.

Thank you for your answers. I'll find a way to get it there.

One thing i have pondered is what would happen if you added some sort of physiologically inert thickening agent to your water based injection. Might it prolong the dispersion of the actives and allow for longer residence time at the site of injection?
 

NeckerCube

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One thing i have pondered is what would happen if you added some sort of physiologically inert thickening agent to your water based injection. Might it prolong the dispersion of the actives and allow for longer residence time at the site of injection?
I'm not sure I'm following you, what would "physiologically inert thickening agent" be? Do you have anything specific in mind?
 
Patrick Arnold

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I'm not sure I'm following you, what would "physiologically inert thickening agent" be? Do you have anything specific in mind?
there are many water soluble polymers that are non-toxic and can increase viscosity of water solution (not sure which ones are used in injectables but the info is out there). the more viscous the water solution the slower it is going to disperse into the fluids of the body. The slower the solution disperses the slower the dissolved substances within (i.e. igf-1) will be released (theoretically). The result would be a timed release of the igf-1 and a much longer exposure time to the local tissue
 
Patrick Arnold

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low molecular weight polyvinylpyrrolidones are an example of polymers that have been used in injectables.
 

NeckerCube

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there are many water soluble polymers that are non-toxic and can increase viscosity of water solution (not sure which ones are used in injectables but the info is out there). the more viscous the water solution the slower it is going to disperse into the fluids of the body. The slower the solution disperses the slower the dissolved substances within (i.e. igf-1) will be released (theoretically). The result would be a timed release of the igf-1 and a much longer exposure time to the local tissue
Hmm, the question that comes to my mind is: what would be the benefit of longer exposure? As receptors once activated, stay activated for like 48-72h. Wouldn't the extended exposure down regulate receptors? Just a thought.
 
Patrick Arnold

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Hmm, the question that comes to my mind is: what would be the benefit of longer exposure? As receptors once activated, stay activated for like 48-72h. Wouldn't the extended exposure down regulate receptors? Just a thought.

i would think that having it slowly release would result in a much greater chance of an igf-1 molecule finding an igf-1 receptor in the vicinity then if it were all released quickly. Also i would think that the longer the exposure the greater the resultant physiological effect. I dont know how quickly IGF-1 receptors regenerate themselves

someone did a study one where they utilized a catheter attache to a mini-pump. they implanted it in the tibialis anterior of the rat and then continuously pumped igf-1 through it. the muscle ended up experiencing significant hypertrophy. I could almost guarantee you that if they injected all the igf-1 in a single bolus you would not have seen such a response


actually here is the study

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/5/1716

the hormone was infused over three weeks.

the whole idea of the polymer is to provide the same kind of slow release, however we are talking maybe an hour as opposed to three weeks
 

NeckerCube

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i would think that having it slowly release would result in a much greater chance of an igf-1 molecule finding an igf-1 receptor in the vicinity then if it were all released quickly. Also i would think that the longer the exposure the greater the resultant physiological effect. I dont know how quickly IGF-1 receptors regenerate themselves

someone did a study one where they utilized a catheter attache to a mini-pump. they implanted it in the tibialis anterior of the rat and then continuously pumped igf-1 through it. the muscle ended up experiencing significant hypertrophy. I could almost guarantee you that if they injected all the igf-1 in a single bolus you would not have seen such a response

the whole idea of the polymer is to provide the same kind of slow release, however we are talking maybe an hour as opposed to three weeks
It's an interesting study, I'll look into it more deeply. And hour or so of active IGF-1 in cartilage is A LOT, comparing to what it typically gets as there is where little blood flow.

I'm 6th day on IGF-1 EOD 40mcg and my shoulder is in the best shape since operation. I know it's not from new cells as they need months to mature, but shoulder is MUUUCH more lubricated. Even that is worth taking it.
 
Patrick Arnold

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It's an interesting study, I'll look into it more deeply. And hour or so of active IGF-1 in cartilage is A LOT, comparing to what it typically gets as there is where little blood flow.

I'm 6th day on IGF-1 EOD 40mcg and my shoulder is in the best shape since operation. I know it's not from new cells as they need months to mature, but shoulder is MUUUCH more lubricated. Even that is worth taking it.
For sore joints you really should try this

http://www.epharmnutrition.com/jointforce.php

you can get it at nutraplanet. below are some testimonials

http://www.modernfitnessforum.com/company-promotions/6457-joint-spray-coming-e-pharm-4.html#post221083
 

coolbreeze

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actually Pats Joint-Force product rocks! Wrap area in seran-wrap after applying and you will feel results!
 

mikelance86

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I have read your posts and they are awesome! I thank you for sharing you knowledge! I have a couple questions that I would love for you to answer....I have had back to back shoulder surgeries (labrum, and shoulder capsule) I am going to run hgh 6 iu's per day split up into 2 doses per day. I am also going to run igf-1 lr3 along with it. MY question is what is the best way to inject this so that the chances of it healing my labrum are best? IM or subq? Also how many mcgs do you reccomend to help "heal" my labrum and shoulder? Thanks so much!
 
theface

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On July 20 I got into some pretty intense discussion on another board about IGF-1. I got so rattled with the misinformation that I decided to loose my 13 years of reading on IGF-1 onto that board. Here's the result.

This is false.

The difference between rhIGF-1 and Long R3 is that the Long R3 does not get bound by binding protein and thus is 100% active whereas you do lose a great % of whatever amount of rhIGF-1 you inject to IGFBP3.

While technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of the rhIGF-1 it will have almost only localized effect, it is so because the "excess" that does not bind to cells in the muscle in which it is injected is rapidly bound up by IGFBP3 and thus rendered unusable by cells elsewhere. It would be much much better in such a case to inject a smaller amount and not have ANY excess that gets bound up by IGFBP's.

And while technically it is true that if you inject a large amount of Long R3 IGF-1 in a muscle, it will first bind to the nearest available receptor, and spread, binding to more and more receptors and not be bound up and neutralized by IGFBP's, meaning that it will travel all through your body and grow all kinds of tissue. This is called the systemic effect of IGF-1. Therein lies the only distinction in terms of BOTH half-life and localized/systemic effect between the Long and the human varieties.

What does all this mean?


It means that technically, for the part of the muscle in which you inject, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN rhIGF-1 and Long R3 IGF-1. They both have the EXACT SAME LOCAL EFFECT. But rhIGF-1 gets neutralized quick, whereas Long R3 gets to float around until it finds a receptor.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us many things. Let's start with what we want, then see where that leads us. What do we want? Bigger muscles. More muscle cells that we will later grow with exercise and gear. A pump? Fatloss? Yeah, right. You can get a pump with a good "pump" product for a quarter of the price of IGF-1. Fatloss? Clen/Alb and T3/T4 will give it to you again at a fraction of the price of IGF-1. More muscle cells, you can ONLY get with IGF-1 (and MGF too). Nothing else will give it to you and if you are using IGF-1 for anything else, you are misusing it. More muscle cells is CLEARLY the best use for IGF-1.

What does all this tell us?

It tells us that we should use IGF-1 to make more muscle cells. It's the only thing that can give it to us and more cells is more growth, which is our goal.

What does this tell us?

The localized effects are the best. Long R3 IGF-1 can float around your body and attach to anything that has IGF-1 receptors. The intestines is the place that has the MOST IGF-1 receptors and it also happens to have lots of blood flow. Injecting large amounts of Long R3 ENSURES that you are growing your intestines. Remember, more cells doesn't equal more size right away. Wait a bit, and see them grow.

What does this mean?

It means that if you are injecting upwards of 50mcg of IGF-1 you are growing your intestines. Yes you are also growing muscle and you may be getting leaner in the process. Your waistline looks trimmer. Nice. A few months down the line, your new intestinal cells will be of their full adult size and you will have acquired the perma-bloat look. Guaranteed. Maybe not Coleman-size perma-gut, but SOME perma-gut and it will keep growing. Guaranteed. Just as your new muscle cells can keep growing and growing IF you pin IGF-1 in a way to maximize new muscle cell creation.

HOW?

Heavy resistance exercise strongly upregulates the IGF-1 receptors on the stressed muscle. That means that after your workout, the muscles you trained are at their BEST STATE for receiving IGF-1 and growing many new cells. That's when you pin. This upregulation of IGF-1 receptor during exercise is short-lived. The science is not readily available so I am unable to quote a paper, but within 60 minutes of the last set, the receptors are back at baseline. This means, PIN IMMEDIATELY POSTWORKOUT and you will get your new muscle cells. PIN A LESSER AMOUNT and you will get only new MUSCLE cells out of your IGF-1. Pin more and you will grow other things, including stuff you wish you didn't grow.

What else?

All the talk about IGF-1's half-life is UTTER BULL****. It is technicality without any real-world applicability. Yes rhIGF-1 has a "short half-life". But what does it mean? It means that it is either taken up by a cell receptor or bound up by a binding protein in short order. Does it mean that 20 minutes after the IGF-1 is pinned you should pin more because "blood levels are low"? Not by any means. Once it's activated a cell receptor, that's where it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete and which will consume lots of energy. So the half-life of 20 minutes means NOTHING BECAUSE THE EFFECTS STILL LAST 72 HOURS ALL THE SAME.

What about Long R3 IGF-1?


Yes technically it has a longer half-life. Why? Because it either gets rapidly taken up by a cell receptor or... Just floats around. Until it can find a receptor or is destroyed by the immune system or some other metabolizing mechanism. BUT THIS MEANS ***NOTHING***!!! Why does it mean nothing? BECAUSE once it attaches to a cell receptor, it initiates a cellular response that will take about 72 hours to be complete. THIS CELLULAR RESPONSE IS ALL THAT INTERESTS US. Not "blood levels", that's utter bull****. As a matter of fact, the one thing YOU DO NOT WANT IS FOR BLOOD LEVELS OF IGF-1 TO BE ELEVATED. Because that means you are growing everywhere and this means first and foremost your guts. Sure it feels like it's working while you're on. Just you wait 9 months and see that you look like Craig Kovacs. Bravo, you now have the biggest intestines in the world.

Half-life means nothing. Localized vs systemic = bad argument. You want localized effects. Period. You get them by pinning immediately postworkout. Period. End of argument.

OMFG I am so tired of all the misinformation floating around on IGF-1. Look at the length of this post. Did you read all of it? You should, you know.
Just to test for understanding, I am about to begin my first cycle of igf-1 and I want to make sure that I avoid growing parts of my body that I do not wish to grow. So, I should only pin 30 mcg EOD or E3D directly after weight training? Thanks!
 
Patrick Arnold

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I have read your posts and they are awesome! I thank you for sharing you knowledge! I have a couple questions that I would love for you to answer....I have had back to back shoulder surgeries (labrum, and shoulder capsule) I am going to run hgh 6 iu's per day split up into 2 doses per day. I am also going to run igf-1 lr3 along with it. MY question is what is the best way to inject this so that the chances of it healing my labrum are best? IM or subq? Also how many mcgs do you reccomend to help "heal" my labrum and shoulder? Thanks so much!

The best way is to get a doctor with a needle that he can guide with the assistance of some imaging instrument. but since i doubt thats gonna happen you just go ahead and try it subq or IM or whatever.

i have no idea what dose might help or if any dose will make a difference at all.
 

mikelance86

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so you dont think igf-1 lr3 injected into delts after surgery can benefit me? I do not want to run anything that is pointless.
 
Patrick Arnold

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so you dont think igf-1 lr3 injected into delts after surgery can benefit me? I do not want to run anything that is pointless.

i dont think its gonna benefit you unless you get it put exactly at the spot of the injury (and even then its not a given)
 
Wilderbeast

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i dont think its gonna benefit you unless you get it put exactly at the spot of the injury (and even then its not a given)
I do not normally disagree with you Mr. Arnold, but from my personal experience I have found that the combination of IGF-1/MGF in the delts 3/wk for me has aided tremendously in my AC joint injury healings. I can tell a huge difference during periods of time when I use the combination and times I am not. Since using them I have had my all-time low levels of pain in my ACs since my injuries.

Respectfully,

BEAST
 

mikelance86

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what dose did you use? Did you just inject into delts? I am also trying to help heal a shoulder (labrum)
 

mikelance86

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i am injecting IM into deltoid of surgical repaired shoulder. I mixed with 0.6 % acetic acid and (also further diluted with BAC). I have read that 0.6% acetic acid can hurt muscle tissue, which would not be good for my shoulder healing...any thoughts?
 
Patrick Arnold

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i am injecting IM into deltoid of surgical repaired shoulder. I mixed with 0.6 % acetic acid and (also further diluted with BAC). I have read that 0.6% acetic acid can hurt muscle tissue, which would not be good for my shoulder healing...any thoughts?
at that concentration it should not hurt your tissue
 

Data

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Would a person who suffers from fibromyalgia benefit from the use of igf1lr3. My wife suffers from this and it has dawned upon me while researching a cycle for myself that this may help her to? She has severe pain in her hands and somedays she cant even bend her fingers. If any one can help with an answer to this question it would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
 

disgraziato

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Would a person who suffers from fibromyalgia benefit from the use of igf1lr3. My wife suffers from this and it has dawned upon me while researching a cycle for myself that this may help her to? She has severe pain in her hands and somedays she cant even bend her fingers. If any one can help with an answer to this question it would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Igf is not the answer, no. You want to give her anti-inflammatory's and supplements that aid to quiet the immune system, as this condition is an auto-immune illness.
 

mikelance86

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patrick, is gh injected sub-q sufficient to help aid in healing of ligaments etc.
 

Eyescream

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Igf is not the answer, no. You want to give her anti-inflammatory's and supplements that aid to quiet the immune system, as this condition is an auto-immune illness.
What if one were to use it to help regrow damaged peripheral nerve tissue (specifically the myelin sheath) after an auto-immune disease is under control? Is that feasible?

Would one pin the affected areas PWO or just shoot it sub-q when they get up in the morning to let it spread out?

I was thinking of doing something like 40mcg EOD, but I haven't decided if i'd benefit more from subcutaneous injections or intramuscular.
 
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disgraziato

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What if one were to use it to help regrow damaged peripheral nerve tissue (specifically the myelin sheath) after an auto-immune disease is under control? Is that feasible?

Would one pin the affected areas PWO or just shoot it sub-q when they get up in the morning to let it spread out?

I was thinking of doing something like 40mcg EOD, but I haven't decided if i'd benefit more from subcutaneous injections or intramuscular.
IMO, the best way to utilize IGF is a series of small dosed shots into the injured area, ie: 20 mcg total split into 4 shots of 5mcg into the injury area.
 

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IMO, the best way to utilize IGF is a series of small dosed shots into the injured area, ie: 20 mcg total split into 4 shots of 5mcg into the injury area.
My entire lower body is the injured area, though. How would I go about spot treatment with an injury of this magnitude?
 
Patrick Arnold

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What if one were to use it to help regrow damaged peripheral nerve tissue (specifically the myelin sheath) after an auto-immune disease is under control? Is that feasible?
.

there is a reason why we have research institutions and university labs with qualified scientists. And that is to perform studies to answer such questions.

Life would be great if magic people on a bodybuilding message board could simply give you the answer. But it doesnt work that way

So the answer is, nobody knows
 
Patrick Arnold

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My entire lower body is the injured area, though. How would I go about spot treatment with an injury of this magnitude?
you need to insert a catheter going into your femoral artery and another one into your femoral vein. tie these into a recirculating device that can oxygenate the blood and where nutrients and the igf-1 can be introduced. good luck
 

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there is a reason why we have research institutions and university labs with qualified scientists. And that is to perform studies to answer such questions.

Life would be great if magic people on a bodybuilding message board could simply give you the answer. But it doesnt work that way

So the answer is, nobody knows
I thought it was worth asking if anybody had used it for an injury like this before, is all. I've read a bunch of research on my own.

you need to insert a catheter going into your femoral artery and another one into your femoral vein. tie these into a recirculating device that can oxygenate the blood and where nutrients and the igf-1 can be introduced. good luck
Thanks, ****head.
 
Patrick Arnold

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I thought it was worth asking if anybody had used it for an injury like this before, is all. I've read a bunch of research on my own.



Thanks, ****head.

no need for name calling. if i had the answer i would let you know. since i dont i choose to joke around. dont let message boards get you uptight
 

disgraziato

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My entire lower body is the injured area, though. How would I go about spot treatment with an injury of this magnitude?
Patrick: Obviously doctors are way behind on most of the substances we research with, and these peptides won't be available to them to prescribe to him.

Eyescream, I would then recommend either random pinning in the lower muscles or just pin sub-q in the gut. If you have injured nerve tissue, the IGF should find its way there, as injured tissue upregulate IGF/ receptors. IGF has helped a serious injury of mine in the past and has helped many other people I know with various injuries.
 

mikelance86

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would a 1/2 inch insulin needle be long enough for IM injection in deltoid of igf-1?
 

NeckerCube

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so you dont think igf-1 lr3 injected into delts after surgery can benefit me? I do not want to run anything that is pointless.
I also have problems with shoulder, with 3 surgeries behind. And I used IGF-1 primarily to heal my cartilage which is badly damaged. So far I had 1 cycle (4 weeks) of IGF, at 60mcg EOD IM in injured delt (no bilateral).

And it helped great deal. I now have some movements I hadn't had since first surgery and pain is almost completely gone. And the soreness is gone. In few months I'll have another surgery to remove bone spurs, and I will have definite answer if it helped in healing.
The plus is that I'm even leaner and got some muscles even at 2-3 very light trainings per week.

Next month I'll go with GH+IGF1.
 

mikelance86

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that is what I am doing and it is helping a great deal. Did you use a 1/2 inch slin pin to inject in the injured deltoid? because that is what I am doing (about 30 mcgs 5 days a week)
 

NeckerCube

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that is what I am doing and it is helping a great deal. Did you use a 1/2 inch slin pin to inject in the injured deltoid? because that is what I am doing (about 30 mcgs 5 days a week)
Yes I used 1/2 inch slin pin. But next month I'll go with 1.5 inch needle to get inside joint, as close to injured cartilage as possible.

Have you read all of this thread and considered going EOD? Grunt suggests to go EOD or even E3D with IGF, as ED might down regulate receptors faster.
 

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Wow. I hope all this info is the truth. Ive been searching around forums and other med. info. They all seem to contradict each other. But, a friend and pro BB is using it now, just started it about 4 months ago. He's tried it all. And since being on this stuff , his muscle bellies have really filled out. This got him to a whole new level of BB sucess. I cant wait to try it myself. forgot to mention, he is cycling, the norm, hgh, test, ect.but no slin.
 
Markusrulezzz

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What I'm understanding is individuals shouldn't do more than 1 cycle if they don't want internal organs to grow ? because everytime you do a cycle new cells will be developed in your internal organs and it takes time for them to grow ?

I'm a lil confused about that
 
boosted5038

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does anyone know why grunt76 fell off the radar??
 

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Hey guys, I am suffering from a rare stomach condition, and I saw that on the net you folks have the most information. I am actually looking into IGF-1 DES 1 3 as a therapeutic agent, and I was wondering about the following:

1.) can it be injected subcutaneously for any effect?
2.) Will the effect be local or systemic, if so?
3.) What is the ideal manner of reconstitution for IGF DES 1 3?

I know it's all experimental, but I want to give it a shot because nothing else has been working. I read IGF DES 1 3 stimulates gut cell proliferation, and also aids in nutrient uptake. Beyond that, I heard IGF helps protect the pathways responsible for gastrointestinal motility, which is a problem I am having.

Any information would be hugely appreciated.

Thank you.
 
Grunt7684

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does anyone know why grunt76 fell off the radar??
I'm still around, kinda. I'm sick right now with extreme adrenal burnout and a concomitant metabolic disease, so I am mostly bedridden and most certainly cannot workout. So I am much less present on forums. But I hope to have all this fixed within a couple years and come back to my good ole habits.

I am using this handle because my old Grunt76 handle got hijacked by a pirate/hacker some time back.
 
RedwolfWV

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I'm still around, kinda. I'm sick right now with extreme adrenal burnout and a concomitant metabolic disease, so I am mostly bedridden and most certainly cannot workout. So I am much less present on forums. But I hope to have all this fixed within !

Damn Grunt, get well soon.. We need ya here!
 
stankyleg

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Any idea what caused ur contam disease? Hate to hear it bro
 
Blergs

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" It means that technically, for the part of the muscle in which you inject, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN rhIGF-1 and Long R3 IGF-1. They both have the EXACT SAME LOCAL EFFECT. But rhIGF-1 gets neutralized quick, whereas Long R3 gets to float around until it finds a receptor."

THANKYOU!!!! :)
 
Blergs

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I LOVE igf1LR3 myself I like it at 40-80mcg ed (and YES I NOTICE MORE FROM 70-80MCG ed then only 40! and yes its worth it) but i mostly stick to 40-50mcg for abotu 8 wks at a time
 
Blergs

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Hey guys, I am suffering from a rare stomach condition, and I saw that on the net you folks have the most information. I am actually looking into IGF-1 DES 1 3 as a therapeutic agent, and I was wondering about the following:

1.) can it be injected subcutaneously for any effect?
2.) Will the effect be local or systemic, if so?
3.) What is the ideal manner of reconstitution for IGF DES 1 3?

I know it's all experimental, but I want to give it a shot because nothing else has been working. I read IGF DES 1 3 stimulates gut cell proliferation, and also aids in nutrient uptake. Beyond that, I heard IGF helps protect the pathways responsible for gastrointestinal motility, which is a problem I am having.

Any information would be hugely appreciated.

Thank you.
1) YES of course it can thats the only way iv been usign ti with great results
1) all igf1 or igf1lr3 go's systemic but igf1 gets cleared out fast in minutes and igf1lr3 is like 20hrs
3) google
 

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