NO or Glutamine?

zoogie

Member
I am a little confused as to which is more important. I currently use a protien supp and a bcaa supp both containing glutamine, but my no booster says not to take more than 10 grams of glutamine per day. I havent seen any articles discussing this topic and was looking for advise.
 
zoogie said:
I am a little confused as to which is more important. I currently use a protien supp and a bcaa supp both containing glutamine, but my no booster says not to take more than 10 grams of glutamine per day. I havent seen any articles discussing this topic and was looking for advise.
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Neither are important - you can add them if you want, but neither is necessary or required, and I personally don't care for either. Re glutamine dosing, 10 grams a day is fine, and studies done have gone up to >20 grams a day - not that the average person would need that.

~Rosie~
 
Glutamine is worthless for anything besides aiding in digestive health. I also see no issue with combining glutamine with your NO booster, though it sounds like your NO booster is from the stoneage with its understanding of various ingredients.
 
zoogie said:
Ok thanks I just wasent really sure and couldent find anything in writing expalining it.
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No worries :) If you look hard enough, you'll find plenty of information on it.

~Rosie~
 
the thought is that glutamine and arginine (i assume this is in your no booster based on the limitations of glutamine) compete in absorption/digestion.
I don't use glutamine pre workout, and the no booster i assume is only pre-workout, so you should be fine.
 
Bnatural said:
the thought is that glutamine and arginine (i assume this is in your no booster based on the limitations of glutamine) compete in absorption/digestion.
I don't use glutamine pre workout, and the no booster i assume is only pre-workout, so you should be fine.
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No, they don't. However, if improperly timed, they could be converted via gluconeogenisis. Then, you really have just circumvented all the benefits of both aminos.
 
SonicSWOLE said:
No, they don't. However, if improperly timed, they could be converted via gluconeogenisis. Then, you really have just circumvented all the benefits of both aminos.
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Please elaborate on how improper timing, on an acute level, could lead to gluconeogenesis. Also, what benefits of these aminos :confused:?
 
SonicSWOLE said:
No, they don't. However, if improperly timed, they could be converted via gluconeogenisis. Then, you really have just circumvented all the benefits of both aminos.
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there are studies to support this.
as far as the gluconeogenesis, that could occur if you were on a ckd or some other low carb regimen, or had low bg levels and ingested them at that time.
i am looking for the studies and cannot fine them. Or if you ingested large amounts at one time, i.e. 15-20grams on an empty stomach.
this could be "old school" logic or some flawed initial study but I did read it.
Either way, I wouldn't see a need for glutamine pre-workout, and I'm not sure when the arginine or whatever powder/product the OP is using is being dosed.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Please elaborate on how improper timing, on an acute level, could lead to gluconeogenesis. Also, what benefits of these aminos :confused:?
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if i'm reading his post correctly, i may have answered this in my previous post based on the improper timing.
as far as the benefits of the product, well, if they get converted to fuel rather than gut health and NO production (indirectly) then you don't gain those benefits.
Sonic is a big boy, he can answer your questions in his own way, these are my thoughts
 
Bnatural said:
if i'm reading his post correctly, i may have answered this in my previous post based on the improper timing.
as far as the benefits of the product, well, if they get converted to fuel rather than gut health and NO production (indirectly) then you don't gain those benefits.
Sonic is a big boy, he can answer your questions in his own way, these are my thoughts
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Agreed, but the gluconeogenesis comment would only apply to a chronic situation.

Also, arginine does not alter NO production when taken orally.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Agreed, but the gluconeogenesis comment would only apply to a chronic situation.

Also, arginine does not alter NO production when taken orally.
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chronic situation? not necessarily, our body's do what they need to for protection and survival.
doesn't alter NO product directly, but it does function in some fashion. There is an additional pump noted when arginine is used, which would mean there is some type of NO production.
 
Bnatural said:
there are studies to support this.
as far as the gluconeogenesis, that could occur if you were on a ckd or some other low carb regimen, or had low bg levels and ingested them at that time.
i am looking for the studies and cannot fine them. Or if you ingested large amounts at one time, i.e. 15-20grams on an empty stomach.
this could be "old school" logic or some flawed initial study but I did read it.
Either way, I wouldn't see a need for glutamine pre-workout, and I'm not sure when the arginine or whatever powder/product the OP is using is being dosed.
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You're pretty right on time here, B. The other instance would be if you have already exceeded your body's requirement for amino's which is relatively easy to do if you are supplementing with high-bioavalble sources, such as whey concentrate, isolate, hydrolysate, BCAA, leucine or really anything above and beyond whole food. When you trake these higherBio's, your body actually requires (much) less gm's of protein per kilo than the standard bodybuilding macro. BTW, any fasted or ultramacro is a "chronic situation".
 
Bnatural said:
chronic situation? not necessarily, our body's do what they need to for protection and survival.
doesn't alter NO product directly, but it does function in some fashion. There is an additional pump noted when arginine is used, which would mean there is some type of NO production.
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Chronic situation does not mean something bad necessarily. It just means acute/transient differences in energy balance aren't going to trigger what sonicswole outlined.
Actually, there is no type of NO stimulation noted in any of the studies where an oral bolus of arginine is consumed. You are right that many users report a pump. This would have to be caused by something other than NO production, of which we are unaware. Or just placebo.

SonicSWOLE said:
You're pretty right on time here, B. The other instance would be if you have already exceeded your body's requirement for amino's which is relatively easy to do if you are supplementing with high-bioavalble sources, such as whey concentrate, isolate, hydrolysate, BCAA, leucine or really anything above and beyond whole food. When you trake these higherBio's, your body actually requires (much) less gm's of protein per kilo than the standard bodybuilding macro. BTW, any fasted or ultramacro is a "chronic situation".
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What is a fasted or ultramacro? not being argumentative, just never heard of a fasted macro and ultramacro before.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Chronic situation does not mean something bad necessarily. It just means acute/transient differences in energy balance aren't going to trigger what sonicswole outlined.
Actually, there is no type of NO stimulation noted in any of the studies where an oral bolus of arginine is consumed. You are right that many users report a pump. This would have to be caused by something other than NO production, of which we are unaware. Or just placebo.



What is a fasted or ultramacro? not being argumentative, just never heard of a fasted macro and ultramacro before.
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Well, you're just plain wrong on both of your accounts. I'm not going to get into it again here, but it seems you are buying into the trendy new advertisement campaigns of several companies. You need to know how arginine works and oral does increase NO production. Don't buy the hype man. And yes, you are being argumentative....as am I. Now the one thing I will throw out here is this: consuming Arginine alone may actually inhibit gluconeogenisis in the liver. So there may be a benefit to consuming a large dose of arginine about an hour or two prior to a high dose of glutamine. The catch is that each of these dosing would have to be solo, without any other amino acids or nutrients/minerals.
 
SonicSWOLE said:
Well, you're just plain wrong on both of your accounts. I'm not going to get into it again here, but it seems you are buying into the trendy new advertisement campaigns of several companies. You need to know how arginine works and oral does increase NO production. Don't buy the hype man. And yes, you are being argumentative....as am I. Now the one thing I will throw out here is this: consuming Arginine alone may actually inhibit gluconeogenisis in the liver. So there may be a benefit to consuming a large dose of arginine about an hour or two prior to a high dose of glutamine. The catch is that each of these dosing would have to be solo, without any other amino acids or nutrients/minerals.
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I do know how arginine works. I have a 25 page slide on it saved on my computer from my biochem class. I'm not being argumentative, I'm being informative (but I guess this sentence has now made me argumentative :)).

I would just like some science on how I am wrong on both counts. Because I can actually pull up about 5 studies showing I am right.
 
Dont spend money on Glutamine or Arginine.


/thread
 
SonicSWOLE said:
You need to know how arginine works and oral does increase NO production.
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I would LOVE to see a study that illustrates oral arginine elevates NO levels significantly. Last I checked, the only compounds that do are GlycoCarn and GSE (Grape Seed Extract). Not too certain about the latter (it may be Pycnogenol).
 
SonicSWOLE said:
You need to know how arginine works and oral does increase NO production. Don't buy the hype man.
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since you are so well versed in the mechanisms of arginine, why dont you enlighten us?

arent you buying into the older school of hype by supporting arginine? :confused:
 
AndrewNico said:
since you are so well versed in the mechanisms of arginine, why dont you enlighten us?

arent you buying into the older school of hype by supporting arginine? :confused:
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I'm not your mentor, don't be so lazy and do your own research. It's all at your fingertips. My background comes from working with Abbott, Nestle, Allegromedical and the likes, I do know what I am typing about and have explained many times on several forums through the years. I'm tired of the same misinterpretations of data and conclusions. So, that's where I am at right now. Look around...I don't need to change your mind....because, really I don't care.
 
Dat uses 25g of glutamine in he intra workout but I have never asked him why does he but all I can say is that if he uses I would use it cause if Dat thinks is useful the by god is effing useful.
 
SonicSWOLE said:
I'm not your mentor, don't be so lazy and do your own research. It's all at your fingertips. My background comes from working with Abbott, Nestle, Allegromedical and the likes, I do know what I am typing about and have explained many times on several forums through the years. I'm tired of the same misinterpretations of data and conclusions. So, that's where I am at right now. Look around...I don't need to change your mind....because, really I don't care.
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If we're dropping credentials, my dad is the owner and CEO of a pharmaceutical company that will go unnamed, and sees no use for arginine as an NO booster.
 
SonicSWOLE said:
I'm sure your dad finds you adorable too.
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Swole,

I have only focused on the topic at hand in my discussion. I absolutely hate it when someone starts belittling the guy they are in a discussion with. If that is how you want to play, I'm out. Enjoy your Arginine and Glutamine.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Chronic situation does not mean something bad necessarily. It just means acute/transient differences in energy balance aren't going to trigger what sonicswole outlined.
Actually, there is no type of NO stimulation noted in any of the studies where an oral bolus of arginine is consumed. You are right that many users report a pump. This would have to be caused by something other than NO production, of which we are unaware. Or just placebo.



What is a fasted or ultramacro? not being argumentative, just never heard of a fasted macro and ultramacro before.
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arginine can be converted to citrulline, citrulline can boost NO production.
 
Bnatural said:
arginine can be converted to citrulline, citrulline can boost NO production.
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Yes, I am aware of the urea cycle, and while in theory it is sound, arginine does not seem to boost NO when taken orally. Also, the reason citrulline boosts NO is actually its conversion to arginine, which is the more direct precursor of nitric oxide, not the other way around. Studies show that citrulline is fair game orally but arginine must be administered intravenously.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Yes, I am aware of the urea cycle, and while in theory it is sound, arginine does not seem to boost NO when taken orally. Also, the reason citrulline boosts NO is actually its conversion to arginine, which is the more direct precursor of nitric oxide, not the other way around. Studies show that citrulline is fair game orally but arginine must be administered intravenously.
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Actually the majority of accepted and acknowledged Arginine studies in relation to NO, show the production via endothelial cells in the GI, oh and this administration is ALWAYS via PO.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Yes, I am aware of the urea cycle, and while in theory it is sound, arginine does not seem to boost NO when taken orally. Also, the reason citrulline boosts NO is actually its conversion to arginine, which is the more direct precursor of nitric oxide, not the other way around. Studies show that citrulline is fair game orally but arginine must be administered intravenously.
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I've directly measured increases in NO serum levels after oral arginine administration. Arginine does not NEED to be administered I.V.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
I've directly measured increases in NO serum levels after oral arginine administration. Arginine does not NEED to be administered I.V.
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Just because you have doesnt mean anything. n = 1. In the oral studies, there were also test subjects who had an increase in NO. There are ALWAYS outliers to the trend published by studies, but the bottom line is that the majority should notice no extra increase in NO. If we're gonna be making statements like this and discrediting scientific studies, you may as well throw all scientific research out the window.

I had a >200% increase in testosterone on DAA (srs). What does this mean for others? Absolutely nothing, because n=1.
 
This is the reason why I requested responses be paired with scientific research that supports OPINION-BASED posts on the 'End-All Fish Oil' thread I created recently: so it wouldn't turn into a pissing match and there would be no room for the "do your research it's all there" cop-out.

The majority of members on here are in agreement with the DEMONSTRATED ineffectiveness of oral arginine. Therefore, it is only just that when someone strolls in from the 1990's and says "arginine raise NO production significantly" that they present a reason WHY they would make such a claim.

Then again, we live in a society of self-entitlement so everyone thinks they're the exception to the rule.

In conclusion: no studies = you're wrong until proven otherwise. :)
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Just because you have doesnt mean anything. n = 1. In the oral studies, there were also test subjects who had an increase in NO. There are ALWAYS outliers to the trend published by studies, but the bottom line is that the majority should notice no extra increase in NO. If we're gonna be making statements like this and discrediting scientific studies, you may as well throw all scientific research out the window.

I had a >200% increase in testosterone on DAA (srs). What does this mean for others? Absolutely nothing, because n=1.
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I never stated what my n was. Saying that arginine can be more of a GI irritant and therefore other ingredients may be beneficial is a better argument. Saying that arginine doesn't increase NO levels is just false. Sort of like saying a NOS inhibitor raises NO levels;)
 
Aleksandar37 said:
I never stated what my n was. Saying that arginine can be more of a GI irritant and therefore other ingredients may be beneficial is a better argument. Saying that arginine doesn't increase NO levels is just false. Sort of like saying a NOS inhibitor raises NO levels;)
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I stated what your n was. You are one test subject. n=1.

Did I say arginine doesnt increase NO levels? No, I said oral arginine at the doses people are using will not increase NO levels. And you are well aware I had nothing to do with any of those NOS inhibitor statements lol.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I stated what your n was. You are one test subject. n=1.

Did I say arginine doesnt increase NO levels? No, I said oral arginine at the doses people are using will not increase NO levels. And you are well aware I had nothing to do with any of those NOS inhibitor statements lol.
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I don't test on myself. All studies were performed on rats; n=24 vehicle controls and 20 arginine. Past that I can't give further info until the paper is published, so you can believe me or not. I don't have a vested interest in saying that arginine works or doesn't work in supplements as I do not own or rep any company. Those that represent companies that make passive aggressive comments about the ingredients of competing companies do have a vested interest and get my interest. Whether you made a direct comment about agmatine isn't in question. You do rep a company that sells a NOS inhibitor (i.e. agmatine) which claims to increase NO without any evidence. As I've said before, I don't doubt that people feel a "pump" on your product, I simply doubt that it is through an NO mechanism.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
I don't test on myself. All studies were performed on rats; n=24 vehicle controls and 20 arginine. Past that I can't give further info until the paper is published, so you can believe me or not. I don't have a vested interest in saying that arginine works or doesn't work in supplements as I do not own or rep any company. Those that represent companies that make passive aggressive comments about the ingredients of competing companies do have a vested interest and get my interest. Whether you made a direct comment about agmatine isn't in question. You do rep a company that sells a NOS inhibitor (i.e. agmatine) which claims to increase NO without any evidence. As I've said before, I don't doubt that people feel a "pump" on your product, I simply doubt that it is through an NO mechanism.
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I can assure you this has nothing to do with my position at SNS, and I find it pretty disrespectful that you think so. If you draw up my posting history on bodybuilding.com, I've had this viewpoint for over a year before becoming a rep. Again, I find that deeply insulting that you have to go after the debater rather than the topic at hand. Anabolicminds seems to have this problem, I guess.

20g arginine I presume? That is a very hefty dose for one rat. Anyway, I'd be very interested in seeing the study if/when it is published.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I can assure you this has nothing to do with my position at SNS, and I find it pretty disrespectful that you think so. If you draw up my posting history on bodybuilding.com, I've had this viewpoint for over a year before becoming a rep. Again, I find that deeply insulting that you have to go after the debater rather than the topic at hand. Anabolicminds seems to have this problem, I guess.

20g arginine I presume? That is a very hefty dose for one rat. Anyway, I'd be very interested in seeing the study if/when it is published.
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That is an insane dose for a rat, but assume away. If you're insulted that you don't believe in a product that you represent, that really isn't my problem.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
That is an insane dose for a rat, but assume away. If you're insulted that you don't believe in a product that you represent, that really isn't my problem.
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Assume away? I am asking if it was 20g per rat, but I know understand your post to say 24 controls and 20 arginine-treated rats. I misunderstood it, apologies.

As for the insulted deal, why are you taking my statements out of context? I am insulted that you are discrediting my view because I represent a company that sells pump products, not because of any other reason.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Assume away? I am asking if it was 20g per rat, but I know understand your post to say 24 controls and 20 arginine-treated rats. I misunderstood it, apologies.

As for the insulted deal, why are you taking my statements out of context? I am insulted that you are discrediting my view because I represent a company that sells pump products, not because of any other reason.
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Your dad is a CEO for a pharm company no? Under normal circumstances I can't give out details on unpublished data, but since I am running this for Pfizer, I'm under even more of a gag order. Having a family member in the field, I am sure you can understand this.

I am not at all discrediting your view because you rep a company. I am saying that you have a vested interest to say that arginine does not work since you rep a company that sells an alternative to arginine products. I've seen the same thing done by others concerning DAA and have spoken up then as well. If you don't believe agmatine works, that's not my issue and would actually mean we agree on something lol. I apologize if you feel insulted over this as it was not my intention. Shake hands and save any further back and forth for PMs?
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Your dad is a CEO for a pharm company no? Under normal circumstances I can't give out details on unpublished data, but since I am running this for Pfizer, I'm under even more of a gag order. Having a family member in the field, I am sure you can understand this.

I am not at all discrediting your view because you rep a company. I am saying that you have a vested interest to say that arginine does not work since you rep a company that sells an alternative to arginine products. I've seen the same thing done by others concerning DAA and have spoken up then as well. If you don't believe agmatine works, that's not my issue and would actually mean we agree on something lol. I apologize if you feel insulted over this as it was not my intention. Shake hands and save any further back and forth for PMs?
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Understood, I just misread your initial post. I am genuinely interested in seenig the study once it is published.

SNS also sells an arginine product FYI. It also appears I misinterpreted your tone earlier as well. Such is communication over the internet :(.

Sure, while we may disagree on the subject matter, you seem like a knowledgeable guy and I would be happy to get into PM discussions if you please :).
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Just because you have doesnt mean anything. n = 1. In the oral studies, there were also test subjects who had an increase in NO. There are ALWAYS outliers to the trend published by studies, but the bottom line is that the majority should notice no extra increase in NO. If we're gonna be making statements like this and discrediting scientific studies, you may as well throw all scientific research out the window.

I had a >200% increase in testosterone on DAA (srs). What does this mean for others? Absolutely nothing, because n=1.
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why would you throw out all studies based on this?
the average increase for daa boosting test was 50%, and if it were consistently measured at higher levels for most ppl, then that would be noted in the study.
stop throwing in the n=1, who the hell needs that addition in this?
look at old creatine studies, you have kidney shutdown and dehydration, ppl thought it was a death trap and that was only 10 years ago, and that you'd have longterm kidney issues. these studies are still relevant to some, it all depends on the angle you take when supporting or aiming to discredit a supplement.
YOU choose to discredit arginine, and you've posted your thoughts, same goes for the opposition.

why was and is arginine used to help as a "natural" remedy for erectile dysfunction?
 
Bnatural said:
why would you throw out all studies based on this?
the average increase for daa boosting test was 50%, and if it were consistently measured at higher levels for most ppl, then that would be noted in the study.
stop throwing in the n=1, who the hell needs that addition in this?
look at old creatine studies, you have kidney shutdown and dehydration, ppl thought it was a death trap and that was only 10 years ago, and that you'd have longterm kidney issues. these studies are still relevant to some, it all depends on the angle you take when supporting or aiming to discredit a supplement.
YOU choose to discredit arginine, and you've posted your thoughts, same goes for the opposition.

why was and is arginine used to help as a "natural" remedy for erectile dysfunction?
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I think you need to relax. Aleksander and I have nothing against each other, we were simply arguing two sides of the coin. He has data that I don't have access to and would love to see, but that doesn't mean we don't have a mutual respect for one another, he's a great guy.

You on the other hand are once again making things personal. With a nice "you" in all caps if I may add.

You're also asking a lot of questions. :D

Q1: When did I say I'm throwing out all studies?
Q2: I thought he had only one test subject, again a misunderstanding. We got that worked out like 2 days ago, and yet hear you are calling me out. Please read. Also, relax. This is a discussion.
Q3: It's not about the angle. There are always studies showing significance and then a new study pops up showing no signficance or vice versa. The point is to draw conclusions based on the research parameters and quality of each study, as well as understanding the overall picture of each study.
Statement 1: I do not choose to discredit arginine. Aleksander does not choose to credit arginine. This is science bud. I have research proving my view, and he apparently has research of his own proving his view. We're not here just throwing out opinions based on anecdotes.
Q4: Let me ask you: Why is arginine in almost every pump product? Why is glutamine sold VERY widely as a recovery agent? If you look into the more modern research, citrulline is actually what is now under the microscope for erectile dysfunction. Likewise, glutamine has been proven useless again and again for recovery.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to come in here after the debate between Aleksander and myself has been straightened out, you better lose the tone and offer your own, valid scientific viewpoints.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I think you need to relax. Aleksander and I have nothing against each other, we were simply arguing two sides of the coin. He has data that I don't have access to and would love to see, but that doesn't mean we don't have a mutual respect for one another, he's a great guy.

You on the other hand are once again making things personal. With a nice "you" in all caps if I may add.

You're also asking a lot of questions. :D

Q1: When did I say I'm throwing out all studies? A: If we're gonna be making statements like this and discrediting scientific studies, you may as well throw all scientific research out the window.
Q2: I thought he had only one test subject, again a misunderstanding. We got that worked out like 2 days ago, and yet hear you are calling me out. Please read. Also, relax. This is a discussion. A:I am relaxed, you are reading into my posts a bit more than you should. I don't get how I am taking this any further than you are. You toss out info and "facts" stating how you know certain things (My dad is a CEO, etc.). I've kept it to a discussion
Q3: It's not about the angle. There are always studies showing significance and then a new study pops up showing no signficance or vice versa. The point is to draw conclusions based on the research parameters and quality of each study, as well as understanding the overall picture of each study. Exactly and there are studies pointing to how arginine does work and how it can product an effect on NO levels, and there are studies pointing towards facts that it does not
Statement 1: I do not choose to discredit arginine. Aleksander does not choose to credit arginine. This is science bud. I have research proving my view, and he apparently has research of his own proving his view. We're not here just throwing out opinions based on anecdotes.
Q4: Let me ask you: Why is arginine in almost every pump product? Why is glutamine sold VERY widely as a recovery agent? If you look into the more modern research, citrulline is actually what is now under the microscope for erectile dysfunction. Likewise, glutamine has been proven useless again and again for recovery.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to come in here after the debate between Aleksander and myself has been straightened out, you better lose the tone and offer your own, valid scientific viewpoints. lose what tone? did you create this thread? No. And I don't really care for your responses either, so if my tone bothers you and you exit the thread, that's fine. I have no direct issue with you, just stating my side of the conversation here
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all of my statements are posted in red, hopefully red isn't an angry "tone" for you
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Ok, please post the CURRENT studies showing oral arginine increases NO at relevant doses in humans.
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Yeah, I see your point. Damn, I don't buy this hype over testosterone either. But, if someone posted some CURRENT studies on testosterone.....that must be the only way to prove it truly does increase LBM.
 
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