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Sperm production after 13 years of T?

slow

New member
I have been on T or similar (about 500+mg/week worth of AA) for about 13 years.
I am about 36 now.
I would like to know if it is possible to have children.
Feel free to chastize me and tell me that I should have thought about that 13 years ago. If you continue reading this post after disapproving laughter and/or asserting the fact that I don't deserve children and/or proclaiming that there is no free lunch, I would like your input.
My LH and FSH are very low, and as expected, I have no living sperm in my seman.
Volume is okay, atrophy does not seem to be that severe, especially after some HCG (100 IU/day). Fructose is present (meaning that there is no blockage.
When I started TRT at the age of 23 my testosterone levels were very low but not zero.

Does anyone have any insight or suggestions? I will be seeing a reproductive endocrinoloist, but I am not sure how knowledgable they will be on the topic.
Two options that I have thought of are:
1: Do a PCT from hell, then, after ~4 months, get a sperm test.
- I had depression prior to TRT, and I imagine that this will be far worse.
- I imagine things may not work out in any way, but I would need to try this for at least two years to really be sure.

2: Try to get some rFSH or hMG and run that along with HCG so I have LH and FSH stimulation (FSH is necessary for the serotolli cells as I understand it, HCG for the leydig cells)
- The prices seem to indicate that this would cost $100 a day.
- There is no guarantee that this world work.
- It would probably require about 3 months of trying this out to determine if it was working.

I hope that I am wrong about something or that I have missed some new silver bullet that was recently created.

Some questions: If I were to pursue 1, what sort of PCT regimine would be idea? Anti-E's? Anti-Aromatase? HCG (I imagine no as this would prevent a natural return of GNRH, FSH+LH but it may be that it would be safe to run this for the first couple of weeks)
How about GH or IGF or someline along those lines?

Regarding 2: Does anyone know if it is possible to get hMG or rFSH for less than $100 a day? Am I looking in the wrong places? I don't want sources posted, but I would like to know if I should look very hard for one in hopes of finding a better price.

Thanks
 
I'm worried about this too. I'm on TRT, I started last year. I've been on HCG as well.

To my understanding, as long as your testicles are still functional, meaning you were on the HCG and your nuts aren't atrophied...you can use HMG to stimulate sperm production. It can take a few months, but HMG should replace the FSH/LH along side your Testosterone Shots, so you wouldn't need to PCT.
 
^this dude was running 500mg a week it sounds like. i know he knows this, but that is not TRT. i would have your heart checked too. reproduction is the least of your concerns after 13 years of on.
 
DT5 said:
^this dude was running 500mg a week it sounds like. i know he knows this, but that is not TRT. i would have your heart checked too. reproduction is the least of your concerns after 13 years of on.
Click to expand...

I don't think the 500mg is going to affect sperm production anymore than 200mg.
 
monsterbox said:
I don't think the 500mg is going to affect sperm production anymore than 200mg.
Click to expand...


did u not read my post son? the dude is running 500mg a week for 13 years. there is ALOT more health issues that come into play (heart enlargment, lipids, etc.). He should be less worried about sperm/babies, and more worried about fixing his own health
 
DT5 said:
did u not read my post son? the dude is running 500mg a week for 13 years. there is ALOT more health issues that come into play (heart enlargment, lipids, etc.). He should be less worried about sperm/babies, and more worried about fixing his own health
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Please refrain from disrespect. Calling him son like that is very degrading. Ya, there is a difference between 200 and 500, but im sure he got bloods checked every once and a while to see where he was at health wise..
 
Back in the day (like around 13 years ago and before) few people other then pro bodybuilders bothered with getting bloodwork (or PCT for that matter).

A hardcore maniac (and I say that with simultaneous praise and a tiny bit of horror) like this man may or may not have been paying much attention to anything other then getting and staying huge. Im guessing now he has a woman who wants kids, or maybe his mortality has suddenly crept up on him, and now its finally time to face the music.

Ive known guys who have been on for two or three years with no breaks and they all have kids. That was back in the days when we didnt even know what PCT was, and they were doing anadrol or dianabol simultaneous with test. (They would do a cycle of anadrol or dianabol with test for about twelve weeks, then sustanon for twelve or so, jump back on anadrol or dianabol again somewhere a couple weeks into the sustanon cycle, and on and on without coming off, in a very haphazard, "child in a candy store" manner. Clarifying because I didnt want to make it sound like they were on anadrol for three years straight, never saw anybody personally who did anything like that)

Thirteen is a lot longer then two or three of course. But Im pulling for you Slow.
 
DT5 said:
did u not read my post son? the dude is running 500mg a week for 13 years. there is ALOT more health issues that come into play (heart enlargment, lipids, etc.). He should be less worried about sperm/babies, and more worried about fixing his own health
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yea, i read your post father. You are correct, it probably has some negative drawbacks on long-term health, but I doubt its any worse for you than smoking/drinking. I wouldn't think its enough test to cause serverely detrimental heart problems. I'm on TRT, and I'm blasting at 500mg for the first time right now, and its a lot less mild than I anticipated. My BP hasn't budged. If he was on Tren/Dbol/Deca etc for years thats another story. I wasn't correcting you, I was just adding that altough its above trt dosages, it probably wouldn't affect fertility any moreso. I guess I shouldn't have quoted you. :sad6:
 
lol! when i opened this thread i scrolled straight down towards the bottom to see the latest updates

i see monsterbox calling someone father

i thought hey is there a priest on this board as well?

turns out monsterbox has his father DT5 on the board :P thanks guys for the laugh
 
monsterbox said:
yea, i read your post father. You are correct, it probably has some negative drawbacks on long-term health, but I doubt its any worse for you than smoking/drinking. I wouldn't think its enough test to cause serverely detrimental heart problems. I'm on TRT, and I'm blasting at 500mg for the first time right now, and its a lot less mild than I anticipated. My BP hasn't budged. If he was on Tren/Dbol/Deca etc for years thats another story. I wasn't correcting you, I was just adding that altough its above trt dosages, it probably wouldn't affect fertility any moreso. I guess I shouldn't have quoted you. :sad6:
Click to expand...

Seriously, your judgement on what is safe and not is pretty questionable give your use of anabolics at 19 + 20.
 
cumkwakka said:
lol! when i opened this thread i scrolled straight down towards the bottom to see the latest updates

i see monsterbox calling someone father

i thought hey is there a priest on this board as well?

turns out monsterbox has his father DT5 on the board :P thanks guys for the laugh
Click to expand...

he called me son LOL
 
monsterbox said:
haha, that could be a true story. But in all honesty, testosterone doesn't kill people, its all the other sh*t.
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yeah, but even testosterone causes high red blood cell count and other issues when dosed at superhuman levels for long lengths of time. at 150mg a week no, but 500mg a week puts you at 3x top of scale of human levels. Theres really no telling what 13 years of that could have caused. Highest cleanly documented natural testosterone level I found was 1700ng or so, 500mg/wk puts you at around 4500.
 
EasyEJL said:
yeah, but even testosterone causes high red blood cell count and other issues when dosed at superhuman levels for long lengths of time. at 150mg a week no, but 500mg a week puts you at 3x top of scale of human levels. Theres really no telling what 13 years of that could have caused. Highest cleanly documented natural testosterone level I found was 1700ng or so, 500mg/wk puts you at around 4500.
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I guess his blood should be thick as concrete, super high hematocrit.
 
I do think that it is possible to be able to produce sperm. You will need to find a doctor though. I think that guys who ran ridiculous cycles in the past were able to have children, after years of abuse. I know Arnold had 4 kids. So you will need to find out what type of therapy you will need to get your nuts back to normal. This will most likely take a while since you body hasn't produce sperm in a long time. The best thing you can do is see a doctor.
 
EasyEJL said:
Seriously, your judgement on what is safe and not is pretty questionable give your use of anabolics at 19 + 20.
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ROFL! easyJL epic ownage


monsterbox, no problem my son. u got class early tomorrow, go to bed. turn off the video games
 
A clomid restart is in order............... some doctor has successfully restarted the axis in long term steroid users. His name is Dr. Scally. You can google him and email him. That I am guessing would be your best bet - otherwise you might have to go overseas and see a traditional chinese medicine practicioner. Also please read the PM I sent you and reply as I'd love to know what your other hormone levels look like after hearing that TRT reduces natural hormone levels of like growth hormone, cortisol, dhea, thyroid - etc over long term use. You are the best person to ask. Thanks.
 
Also I think this whole steroid heart thing is absurd. It has actually proven to reverse cardiovascular disease faster than anything else - and I can attest to it myself as my blood pressure was dropping very low before taking it.
 
I attempted to send a PM in response to PM but as it turns out I don't have a enough posts to do this.
So this is a response to Bomb402's PM asking about the suppression of other hormones.
I am not a great "controlled" study as I take a lot of OTC supplements and herbs, including various mild SERM's and/or AI's.

I have had regular blood tests, and they have been fairly consistant.

Here are the results:
- Estrogen Low
- Projesterone low.
- Total cholesterol low, HDL and LDL both low.
- DHEA Low (after I saw this, I added started taking DHEA and I felt better)
- Triglycerides low
- resting insulin low
- cortisol low
- IGF low. This one worries me a little. GH has not been measured, but I will get result for this within a week. I suspect that low blood IGF is mainly a measure of the liver's output, but that the muscle output is what I should be more concerned about.
- T4 low. I am not sure why this was or when this began, but my docter prescribed T4 150 mcg and I felt a lot better.
- Mineralcorticoids low, and sodium low. Potassium slightly elevated.

It is clear that various hormones are suppressed, but I can't say that TRT is the only cause.
Many people underestimate my age (i.e. may guess that I am in my late 20's), but I am not sure if this is related.
I feel that I am in good physical shape. No known health problems. I work out daily. (which is admittedly easier to do
Over the last couple of years my weight has been around 205lb & 10% bf. I am 5'10.

My endocrinologist prescribed clomiphene, and if that fails, she suggested HCG + rFSH.
She seemed to convey the message that this was not too uncommon, but it may be that she was just being polite.

I hope that helps.
 
Why would bringing up ones low Testosterone levels, to normal or slightly above normal levels surpess other hormones? If anything this should help the adrenals or the body function better. If your staying on a steroid cycle for years and your Test levels are way above normal than I can see this causing a problem, but if everything is slightly above normal range like a healthy guy in his twenties, I dont see how other hormones would be surpressed.


Anybody care to explain why this would happen please?
 
I would like to say you are a wonderful candidate for adoption, I do not think its worth the ridiculous struggle your going to go through in order to concieve a child.

One thing though, 500mg a week is not an HRT dose of testosterone, thats a very large dose...
 
superone said:
Why would bringing up ones low Testosterone levels, to normal or slightly above normal levels surpess other hormones? If anything this should help the adrenals or the body function better. If your staying on a steroid cycle for years and your Test levels are way above normal than I can see this causing a problem, but if everything is slightly above normal range like a healthy guy in his twenties, I dont see how other hormones would be surpressed.


Anybody care to explain why this would happen please?
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The body is a funny thing. Remember that even if you are taking just near normal human levels of testosterone, unless you are using androgel/testim (and even then) the release pattern is very different than natural testosterone release. So it still monkeys with pituitary function as under normal testosterone production, your test is highest basically the moment you get up from sleeping, and lowest before you go to sleep. with using test cyp, your highest is roughly 8hrs to 1 day after injection, and your lowest is day before injection.
 
EasyEJL said:
The body is a funny thing. Remember that even if you are taking just near normal human levels of testosterone, unless you are using androgel/testim (and even then) the release pattern is very different than natural testosterone release. So it still monkeys with pituitary function as under normal testosterone production, your test is highest basically the moment you get up from sleeping, and lowest before you go to sleep. with using test cyp, your highest is roughly 8hrs to 1 day after injection, and your lowest is day before injection.
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Thanks, but what does that have to do with Testosterone effecting other hormones is what im asking?
 
Testosterone and it's various metabolites act on many receptors, which may cause negative feedback to various systems.
For example, even in the absense of progesterone and estrogen, androgens are believed to be able to suppress the HPTA via opiate receptors.
 
Very interesting slow.

1) So what are your T levels now on your dose throughout the week 13 years into it? 2)Have you been productive and feeling good the last 13 years and when did you start to feel crappy and your t4 start to show low?
3) How is your sex drive and testicle/member size? How often have you been having sex? I ask this because I want to see what long term TRT does to the sex drive.

The low DHEA makes sense to me as it is being converted into male hormones - it would make sense for exogenous testosterone to naturally oppose that. I don't know how high your potassium was but it usually is high when the kidneys are under some form of stress - could be high T.

Thank you for sharing with us your experience.
 
EasyEJL said:
The body is a funny thing. Remember that even if you are taking just near normal human levels of testosterone, unless you are using androgel/testim (and even then) the release pattern is very different than natural testosterone release. So it still monkeys with pituitary function as under normal testosterone production, your test is highest basically the moment you get up from sleeping, and lowest before you go to sleep. with using test cyp, your highest is roughly 8hrs to 1 day after injection, and your lowest is day before injection.
Click to expand...

So Easy would you say with Test prop someone could mimic the natural high to be at the time they wake up? I know its alot more stabbing than with a longer ester, but for HRT reasons they have been doing studies for small amounts sub Q. Just wondering, I think HRT is going to become very common in the future.
 
A certain doc says that what they call "stealth liposomes" which is basically a fancy word for timed release patches don't interfere with other negative feedback mechanisms. A study showed Androderm didn't even suppress LH in men under 30 I think. Although I'm sure you can find people on these forums where their testicles shut down even from a small dosage patch. My doc says the patch is junk, but I think it is underrated for people that want to see if they can bring up their natural levels before shutting down. Even the cream stays in the body for 8 hours - compared to a normal T half life of say 10 minutes. My experience with the cream and cypionate shot is that both induce shut down extremely quick, and one has to up the dosage almost on the third day to nearly double because the kidneys' androgen production must taper off as well. For me I noticed major pituitary headaches (yes it was in the center of my head) and got a little wigged out. Luckily I have found a main gut problem that I want to address first before resorting to TRT. If I did go on it permanently I think I'd do Androderm patches. I'd like to see like a 10mg patch though, so one wouldn't have to wear 2-3 patches to get the same effect. I agree with you on TRT being a staple of the future - we don't eat any live organisms anymore and probably most of unhealthy Americans have leaky gut (leaky gut has been validated by even government science despite the physicians that spuriously claim it has no existence) which is a hallmark of autoimmune disease and endocrine dysfunction. It is very kind of Slow to provide us with his experience. I think another good place to post this question is in a professional bodybuilder's forum - where they deal with the prospect of shutdown on a regular basis.
 
Zero V said:
So Easy would you say with Test prop someone could mimic the natural high to be at the time they wake up? I know its alot more stabbing than with a longer ester, but for HRT reasons they have been doing studies for small amounts sub Q. Just wondering, I think HRT is going to become very common in the future.
Click to expand...

I'd think test suspension would be better overall. Prop still can be in system over 48 hours.
 
Regarding my thyroid. As it turns out, I have had mild hypothyroidism thoughout my life.
Earlier I was not treated, as I lived in a different country and my docter was not so keen on prescribing T4 to someone who was just slightly lower than the normal level.
I am on Clomid and off all androgens (asigned from 100mg/day of dhea) and I am surprised that I have not really lost much in the way of size and strength.
Last I checked my weight was still over 200 and my bf was stable at 8%.
As far as atrophy is concerned, things were never that severe. There was no atrophy of the member - on the contrary... I need not continue that one.
My wife has been more than satisfied with the situation as a whole - Aside from the lack of living sperm of course.
 
Update:
My Dr prescribed HCG and rFSH "to help accelerate the process", in addition she gave me a mild script for arimidex to ensure that my aromatase was not too high.
The idea here is to lower the HCG / rFSH as my natural levels rise so that I don't "suffer" from symtoms of hypogonadism, and to get sperm production started early as it takes about three months for them to "mature". This seems odd to me, but I wasn't going to turn down anything that was covered by my plan.
I got my blood test results yesterday and I was amazed to see that my total testosterone levels were in the normal range, and my free test was high:

Serum: 600 ng/dl (ref 280 - 800)
Free 4.57 (ref 1.4 - 4.2 )

I imagine that this will level out as I reduce the HCG in two weeks. I am currently on 500 iu EOD

One thing that I like about female endocrinologists is that they play fast and loose with hormones. I imagine that she has first hand experience with birth control pills and potentially ERT.
 
Thanks for updating us Slow. I sent you another PM regarding me having similar introductory symptoms with the eating thing. I can't believe I actually found someone who experienced the same thing I am now! Shoot me your email!
 
Any up-dates on this thread? Very interested about the dose prescribed of HCG and rFSH and the frequency of the injections...also if you´ve been using clomiphene all-together or not.
 
Sh!t...a 13 year cycle, not even close to TRT. I would be worried about a lot more than your nuts at this point =\ Heart attack waiting to happen. This post is scary.
 
Gutterpump said:
Sh!t...a 13 year cycle, not even close to TRT. I would be worried about a lot more than your nuts at this point =\ Heart attack waiting to happen. This post is scary.
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Well - he was doing a MUCH higher dosage of Test during that time - but other than that - what's the difference between what he did and TRT?

Honestly - I don't know - just trying to learn. But is there something that would have been done differently had he been on Doctor supervised TRT?
 
HondaV65 said:
Well - he was doing a MUCH higher dosage of Test during that time - but other than that - what's the difference between what he did and TRT?

Honestly - I don't know - just trying to learn. But is there something that would have been done differently had he been on Doctor supervised TRT?
Click to expand...

On TRT, my doc asks for labs every few months or so, basically making sure everything's in a good healthy range.

Being on 500mg of test for 13 yrs, probably living with higher blood pressure, high hematocrit, high rbc count, thick blood, high E, extra water, bad lipids, just a big risk, not to mention a lowered response to test for being that high for so long. It's just not healthy, so many sides to worry about, and those sides over time can cause some damage.
 
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