princevince
Active member
and of what race are the ones making all the laws, from day one till now? and why is that? hhmmmmmmmmmmm? who died and left them boss?
The New Arizona Immigration Law (SB1070) in Arizona
- Thread starter B5150
- Start date
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
The bill calls for reasonable suspicion. The term is originally developed in a case describing when officers have a "reasonable suspicion" that they are in danger if someone they are dealing with may have a weapon. Extending it to other laws can lead to abuse.
Reasonable Suspicion can be defined as "The idea that there is enough circumstational evidence where a person could make a logical conclusion or reasonable assumption that there is a crime being comited."
What defines this? What circumstantial evidence besides race is a reasonable suspicion that someone might be illegal.
Lines 20-26 states that during a legal anything, such as being pulled over, if reasonable suspicion exists that they might be illegal, they can be asked for paperwork. What besides race gives this suspicion?
I also think that this states it quite correctly, it is from a liberal site so I will quote it rather then link since I would obviously get an argument of source, so I will copy it and say that it summarizes my thoughts quite similarly:
In the sense that he agrees sport teams have no place in politics, then neither does he. This is coming from someone who lived in Chicago during the amazing Chicago Bulls years, so I do not in any sense dislike Phil.
I couldn't agree more, China is by far the worst example of a good government. I am a big proponent of free speech and this country is a ****ing nightmare. **** China and thier opinions on how our country should be run.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
EasyEJL
Never enough
An inability to speak intelligible english? Maybe ask them a question about the constitution? "Whats the first amendment to the constitution"
I think the law should have been structured so that every person arrested or pulled over in a motor vehicle was asked to show proof of citizenship. Either way its someone who broke a law already, so forcing them to prove they are citizens or have a green card/student visa/etc should just be part of processing their criminal activity. At least that way all the liberal whiners about racial profile would be forced to shut up.
Profiling works. Sorry but it does. Radical islam terrorists against the US have all been single males from 20-45 of arabic descent. You are throwing common sense to the wind if you don't believe that anyone fitting that description on a plane deserves some extra looking at. Similarly in Arizona, they don't have a huge drug dealing and human trafficking issue from chinese illegal immigrants or russian illegal immigrants or canadian illegals, but from mexican illegals. If they refuse to attempt to look closer at mexicans, all they are doing is a disservice to the legal citizens of the state of Arizona.
Saying profiling is a bad thing is not much different than saying "spending your effort where your odds are better is a bad thing"
youngandfree
Well-known member
For the record Phil Jackson was put on the spot by a jackass reporter. He stated that teams should stay out of it, including himself.
As far as reasonable suspicion goes, if a cop pulls over a person driving a car with no drivers license or the tags don't match the VIN or there are 15 people in the car, I would opine that's pretty reasonable. If a cop is called for some domestic incident or other criminal activity, what is the first thing they ask for? "do you have any I'd on you?". If you are Hispanic or any other race and don't have an I'd, not talking birth certificate or green card (which LEGAL immigrants or resident aliens are required tp he with them at all times by federal law)
As far as reasonable suspicion goes, if a cop pulls over a person driving a car with no drivers license or the tags don't match the VIN or there are 15 people in the car, I would opine that's pretty reasonable. If a cop is called for some domestic incident or other criminal activity, what is the first thing they ask for? "do you have any I'd on you?". If you are Hispanic or any other race and don't have an I'd, not talking birth certificate or green card (which LEGAL immigrants or resident aliens are required tp he with them at all times by federal law)
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
You are arguing for racism, which is what you just said by definition. If you don't believe me I gave an official definition of racism earlier in the thread. You can support racism all you want, I won't.
Also my mom is a legal resident, who carries her license with her. She has her green card safe guarded at the house. There is no reason that she should have to carry it with her, even those as an Italian it would probably never come up.
In theory. In a run in with the law I had when i was younger, the officer went through my wallet and ran the information from the ID he found in there. Unfortunately I had been out to the bars earlier on a fake ID. My real one was tucked away. The cop processed everything through my fake ID, and it wasn't until I realized what they had done (my name was my actual name on the ID so finding out thier mistake took a while) that I had informed them of the error. Had I not said anything, all the information went through thier computers and showed that my name in Maine (the location of my ID) was not a registered felon. Many hardcore illegals have fake IDs. Others, such as a friend I described earlier, have a real id. Both would be able to produce the IDs, and my buddies ID makes no mention of being "illegal," and the chance that the fake might make it through the police computer flaws this argument.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
To the Phil comment, I totally understand, was just stating his opinion, isn't the most educated or worthy of discussion.
For the ID information, see my post above.
youngandfree
Well-known member
Obviously an ID real or fake isn't going to say fake on it. But if the story being given or the info just doesn't jive, that's pretty reasonable to suspect something is not right.
You cannot be stopped or just walked up to and asked to provide papers. Period. No matter how many examples Obama gives of just walking around or going to get ice cream, and possibly being arrested are patently false and outrageous.
Is it fair for a local PD to set up a DUI checkpoint and stop every single car on the road looking for people driving under the influence? That isn't based on race, but everyone is stopped WITHOUT reasonable suspicion. Where are the libs coming to the defense of the sober law abiding citizens being harassed with no reasonable suspicion?
Race baiting is a hundred times more prevalent than actual racism. How many times have the good Reverands Jackson and Sharpton actually had a legitimate racial incident?
FWIW, Obama said to the Mexican President that Border security is much less important than a strong relationship between the two countries. This exemplifies the real nature of the problem and the administrations stance on it.
SECURE. THE. BORDERS!
You cannot be stopped or just walked up to and asked to provide papers. Period. No matter how many examples Obama gives of just walking around or going to get ice cream, and possibly being arrested are patently false and outrageous.
Is it fair for a local PD to set up a DUI checkpoint and stop every single car on the road looking for people driving under the influence? That isn't based on race, but everyone is stopped WITHOUT reasonable suspicion. Where are the libs coming to the defense of the sober law abiding citizens being harassed with no reasonable suspicion?
Race baiting is a hundred times more prevalent than actual racism. How many times have the good Reverands Jackson and Sharpton actually had a legitimate racial incident?
FWIW, Obama said to the Mexican President that Border security is much less important than a strong relationship between the two countries. This exemplifies the real nature of the problem and the administrations stance on it.
SECURE. THE. BORDERS!
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
HTS I think you misunderstood me on this.. I was not saying this hypothetical situation is "how" we should deal with the immigration problem. I was just using it to show this:
If you asked 1000 Mexicans in AZ to show citizenship... you would find about 30-60 Illegals.
If you asked 1000 Whites in AZ to show citizenship... you would find 1-3 illegals.
How would you expect us to throw this information out the window and not use it in our search for illegals? If this is being racist to act on this kind of information... then I have just found a justification for racism and a damn good reason to be racist. However, in my eyes, I don't think this is being racist. I think this is being smart and following logic and reason.
1. Most illegals are Mexicans.
2. Most Mexicans are not illegals.
3. Most illegals are not Whites.
4. Most Whites are not illegals.
Which of these facts do you think is of most aid for the search for illegal immigrants? 1? 2? 3? 4? Which one do you think would help law enforcement the MOST.
416
New member
ieveIn theory. In a run in with the law I had when i was younger, the officer went through my wallet and ran the information from the ID he found in there. Unfortunately I had been out to the bars earlier on a fake ID. My real one was tucked away. The cop processed everything through my fake ID, and it wasn't until I realized what they had done (my name was my actual name on the ID so finding out thier mistake took a while) that I had informed them of the error. Had I not said anything, all the information went through thier computers and showed that my name in Maine (the location of my ID) was not a registered felon. Many hardcore illegals have fake IDs. Others, such as a friend I described earlier, have a real id. Both would be able to produce the IDs, and my buddies ID makes no mention of being "illegal," and the chance that the fake might make it through the police computer flaws this argument.[/QUOTE]
I do not believe most fake ids would get past and even if they do it does not invalidate it.I would say every law probably has people who do no get caught.In my state you would have been in quite a bit of trouble just for presenting an officer with a fake id.
I do not believe most fake ids would get past and even if they do it does not invalidate it.I would say every law probably has people who do no get caught.In my state you would have been in quite a bit of trouble just for presenting an officer with a fake id.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
I think the oil spill and SB1070 are related to global warming and obama is controlling all of it but he is only a puppet for the antichrist david hasslehoff.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
You *******. I was reading this on the train and laughed out loud, now i am "that guy." lol. Reps.
For the rest of you i will respond when i am back on a computer.
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
EasyEJL
Never enough
No, i'm not arguing for racism. I'm arguing for using valid statistics to perform deeper checks into people more likely to be illegals. Its not because they are brown, or yellow, or red, but because their group is more likely to be it. Similarly to men or women of certain groups whether based on age, family history etc being urged to get specific medical tests. Thats not discrimination against everyone who doesn't fit their category (denying them medical testing that could save their lives) but that statistically the groups that have higher odds of medical issues have a better survival rate if they are checked earlier/more often.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
The problem lies within the execution. By the law, as it is stated, no one will be randomly stopped. But in reality, it most likely won't work out as cleanly. "Reasonable suspicion" allows for alot of lax execution. An officer can simply say "I smelled weed," by the time it hits the courtroom, there is no conflicting evidence to say this wasn't true. "Although I smelled marijuana, none was found, but I had reasonable belief while talking to the defendent that he was an illegal, so I demanded paperwork."
No I am against this as well. As I said I am a moderate lib, so what the party does as a general average doesn't cater to me too much. As I said, there are policies I agree with that are conservative. I actually liked alot of Ron Paul's ideals, who is libertarian.
I ****ing hate them both. Don't need to comment to much on that.
I don't follow the cult of Obama, although I did proudly vote for him. Like any president he will do things I agree and disagree with. We should establish strong relationships with as many countries as we can (In my belief), but it should have nothing to do with border enforcement, and his idealogy there is against mine.
Agreed.
Ok then if your situation is not in all a reflection of how you would solve the problem, then yes it would work. But if it wouldn't contribute towards actually solving the problem at hand, besides being a hypothetical situation, it really doesnt need further discussion.
That is true, but in the story I linked to of the commercial driver who was harrassed for not having papers, he presented a VALID ID, and it wasn't enough. It simply doesnt provide enough backing to be the reason for suspicion in either sense.
In my state I could have been in alot of trouble as well. It is a felony with a minimum sentence which involves jail time. Luckily I was around a campus and although the one cop was a prick and basically told me he cant wait to see me behind bars for having a fake, his superior laughed it off. I won't deny that being white played into my favor.
I will check this out at work tomorrow, I am quite exhausted after working out and need to get some sleep after these responses and a quick log update.
I won't see the correlation between preventative medicine and racial profiling for law enforcement. Using a stereotype to treat any individual differently then another is un-American. I thought the right was all for rights and liberties?
I don't thing the law itself is racist, rather the circumstance in which it will be executed, IMO, is...
I will continue this discussion tomorrow, but then will probably call it quits. Being the only man on one side of a debate is mentally exhausting, and although I am enjoying this talk, it gets to a point where I am overwhelmed.
timmmah
Active member
I never heard from the officers or anyone representing the department on this matter. Isn't this just the opinion of a reporter that got her story from the commercial drivers girlfriend? Do we really know if he had current Identification?
Re post the link if it is otherwise.
B5150
Legend
No reason except that it is a Federal Law:
8 United States Code Section 1304(e):
Personal possession of registration or receipt card; penalties
Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times
carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate
of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to
him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails
to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of
a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined
not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or
both.
It has been the law since 1946.
EasyEJL
Never enough
So what you are saying is you have a prejudice against Arizona state police officers? In that you believe they as a group will unfairly prosecute based on the law? Sounds no better or different than racism, its a prejudice based on your personal feelings about a group, not based on any specific activity of any member of that group based on actuality.
And I looked last nite but couldn't find it, does anyone have the statistical information on the racial makeup of the Arizona police force?
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
Ill give you that one, I have not heard the other side of the argument.
Good find, however I wouldn't encourage my mother to carry it anyway. To carry around a document of that importance, that if lost would create numerous headaches to receive a new one, is plain stupid. I am willing to bet the overwhelming majority of resident aliens would not carry the documentation around with them.
Please don't twist my words. I never stated I have a predjudice against Arizona cops, or cops anywhere for that matter. I have a prejudice against humans and human nature. Earlier I stated that cops are the reason this country is livable, and I wouldn't blame them for the select few that give them a bad name, same reason I wouldn't target Mexicans for the select that are illegal. If you want me to call me anything, call me a realist.
BTW, for those arguing "READ THE DAMN BILL THEY CANT PULL OVER ANYONE THEY NEED REASON OMG OMG," Please read the politifact article on this very issue. Before politifact receives any criticizm, they are a pulitzer prize winning website, run by the st. petersburg times. Well regarded as being no political, and assess issues as the matter at hands. Enjoy the read:
Invalid Link Removed
EasyEJL
Never enough
So why no hue and outcry over the federal law then? Are federal law officers less likely to have prejudice? Whether in Arizona or nationally the same detail applies - most of the illegal aliens here in the US are Mexican.
And if you were a realist you'd also understand that making any sort of dent in the illegal population is going to require actively pursuing them, and enabling local officials to deal with them as the federal government refuses to. You don't reach near 5% of the population being here illegally by having active enforcement of existing laws. Again, as a realist you'd understand that putting your head in the sand and ignoring the illegals only further tears down our nation's fabric.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
If you follow my posts through all of here I am not looking to dent the illlegal population. I do believe our economy relies on them to an extent. Im for border security as opposed to witch hunting those here.
The nation's fabric is being torn by alot more then illegals. In particular I believe the real problem is drug cartels, not the person wiping down your windshield after a car wash or picking corn.
youngandfree
Well-known member
Well that Politifact article raised red flags when the first source they quoted was Chris Matthews and MSNBC. If any info comes from any NBC station, they are even more slanted than Fox News, so pick another news source. NBC is owned by GE, who received Billions from Obama for their financial division. GE is poised to be the largest benefactor if Cap and Tax is passed. GE is eyeball deep in the "electronic medical records" business. So they will benefit if Obamacare really goes into affect in 2014 after Obama is voted out. Oh and the CEO, Jeff Immelt is eyeball deep in Obama's jock strap he can't see out. He is also on Obamas Economic Destruction Board. Sorry I meant Development.
Therefore, the Pulitzer Prize is about s worthless as the Nobel Peace Prize. So find me a news source that's not in Obamas jock and I will be happy to listen. You did admit your the example of profiling with the truck driver wasn't verified so that example shall be struck from the record of this discussion since it too is one sided and unverified.
Therefore, the Pulitzer Prize is about s worthless as the Nobel Peace Prize. So find me a news source that's not in Obamas jock and I will be happy to listen. You did admit your the example of profiling with the truck driver wasn't verified so that example shall be struck from the record of this discussion since it too is one sided and unverified.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
So you clearly didnt read the article? Its ok to generally dislike a news source, as I can't stand Fox, but the article is not from that news source. It clearly used a statement on that show as the basis of an article, in an attempt to prove if what was said was true or not.
P.S. Politifact is not democratic or republican, they seek to provide political information based on fact, which people have a problem following when fact differs from this opinion.
Lets keep riding the hate on obama board, it seems to be the thing to do these days, oops look what I dropped:
Invalid Link Removed
Cliffnotes: They pulled a comment from the show and attempted to verify its validity.
bluehealer
Active member
Now let's see what he said on CNN yesterday.
May 19, 2010
WOFF BLITZER: So if people want to come from Guatemala or Honduras or El Salvador or Nicaragua, they want to just come into Mexico, they can just walk in?
CALDERON: No. They need to fulfill a form. They need to establish their right name. We analyze if they have not a criminal precedent. And they coming into Mexico. Actually...
BLITZER: Do Mexican police go around asking for papers of people they suspect are illegal immigrants?
CALDERON: Of course. Of course, in the border, we are asking the people, who are you?
And if they explain...
BLITZER: At the border, I understand, when they come in.
CALDERON: Yes.
BLITZER: But once they're in...
CALDERON: But not -- but not in -- if -- once they are inside the -- inside the country, what the Mexican police do is, of course, enforce the law. But by any means, immigration is a crime anymore in Mexico.
BLITZER: Immigration is not a crime, you're saying?
CALDERON: It's not a crime.
BLITZER: So in other words, if somebody sneaks in from Nicaragua or some other country in Central America, through the southern border of Mexico, they wind up in Mexico, they can go get a job...
CALDERON: No, no.
BLITZER: They can work.
CALDERON: If -- if somebody do that without permission, we send back -- we send back them.
BLITZER: You find them and you send them back?
CALDERON: Yes.
May 19, 2010
WOFF BLITZER: So if people want to come from Guatemala or Honduras or El Salvador or Nicaragua, they want to just come into Mexico, they can just walk in?
CALDERON: No. They need to fulfill a form. They need to establish their right name. We analyze if they have not a criminal precedent. And they coming into Mexico. Actually...
BLITZER: Do Mexican police go around asking for papers of people they suspect are illegal immigrants?
CALDERON: Of course. Of course, in the border, we are asking the people, who are you?
And if they explain...
BLITZER: At the border, I understand, when they come in.
CALDERON: Yes.
BLITZER: But once they're in...
CALDERON: But not -- but not in -- if -- once they are inside the -- inside the country, what the Mexican police do is, of course, enforce the law. But by any means, immigration is a crime anymore in Mexico.
BLITZER: Immigration is not a crime, you're saying?
CALDERON: It's not a crime.
BLITZER: So in other words, if somebody sneaks in from Nicaragua or some other country in Central America, through the southern border of Mexico, they wind up in Mexico, they can go get a job...
CALDERON: No, no.
BLITZER: They can work.
CALDERON: If -- if somebody do that without permission, we send back -- we send back them.
BLITZER: You find them and you send them back?
CALDERON: Yes.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
So when are we looking at other countries for how to run our own? China might have a few suggestions for us? One country doing it doesnt mean its for us, and if you think it is then you surely support socialized medicine since most established countries have it in some form.
youngandfree
Well-known member
I did read the entire article thank you. But when the article is based on statements made by Chris Matthews, then followed up by quotes from 3 professors of liberal colleges, you haven't provided much of a two sided argument.
I stand by my previous statement that your "real world examples" are null and void.
I stand by my previous statement that your "real world examples" are null and void.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
Law is black and white. No matter who finds a hole in legislation does not state that it does not exist. That is a terrible argument. Disprove it and ill be satisfied, but it can't be done because thier demonstration is based on the law itself.
Thats like the argument of the health bill and how a loophole exists with the mandatory coverage. It might have been a republican that discovered it (more likely business insiders), both of which would be biased, but it doesnt mean the problem doesn't exist.
youngandfree
Well-known member
The law was cited that there are restrictions on police personell on how they can approach people. It says there has to be lawful contact BEFORE the reasonable suspicion of immigration status can even be brought into the picture. How is that a loophole? And at the conclusion of the article, they conclude that Gutierrez statements are "mostly true". Well last I checked even 5% falsehood renders the statement untrue.
But not in liberal thought process. Just ask the guy running for Senate that said numerous times he served in Vietnam when in fact he never went over there. I guess "well I served in the reserves during Vietnam but kept getting deferments in order to keep going to college" makes his statement Mostly True.
But not in liberal thought process. Just ask the guy running for Senate that said numerous times he served in Vietnam when in fact he never went over there. I guess "well I served in the reserves during Vietnam but kept getting deferments in order to keep going to college" makes his statement Mostly True.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
From the article:
This is entirely plausible.
You are still attacking the source. They gave a mostly true in an assesment looking to criticize the comment. Stating where it was off and where it was on. If they said entirely true or not entirely true it would have been a lie.
This is entirely plausible.
You are still attacking the source. They gave a mostly true in an assesment looking to criticize the comment. Stating where it was off and where it was on. If they said entirely true or not entirely true it would have been a lie.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
EasyEJL
Never enough
youngandfree
Well-known member
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
youngandfree
Well-known member
I haven't once mentioned drug cartels in my discussion. The liberal socialist agenda goes way beyond Mexican cartels when it comes to tearing down America.
How about just the last two days when Obama let's a foreign president stand before congress and the public and say how bad we are because the citizens want a secure border and to stop illegal immigrants. Calderone said its Americas fault for the drug ways because we create a demand for the drugs and our assault weapons arm the cartels. He should have been bitch slapped right off the podium. Obama agrees with him saying how bad we are. Calderone and former Presidente Fox said illegal are not tolerated in Mexico. If you come legally and can't provide some good for the economy and take care of yourself, you are gone. Mexican police can and will stop you for no reason and force you to produce papers. And if you are a gringo, the hold you hostage for no reason until you pay a cash ransom to the police. Not a fine to the court. Cash to the police.
Obamas puppet assistant secretary of state in China telling the communist dictators that have some of the worst human rights violations how bad we are as a nation. Are you kidding me?
Obama taking control of banks, health insurance, complete control of student loans. How much more do you want. He said I don't have a problem with people making money. But there comes a point when you've made enough.
They are demonizing Goldman Sachs recently about how evil they are and how they lobby Congress to get there way. Guess who received the most money from Goldman? Senator and president O. Who runs treasury? Former Goldman execs. Demonizing BP. Same thing. The individual that received the most money from them? That's right, Obama.
Financial reform. How is it that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the two entities that are the most responsible for the housing crash are not even mentioned in the financial reform bill? Also, why is there language in that bill wanting to require supplement companies to provide clinical studies for naturally occuring substances? What the hell does that have to do with financial reform. Nothing. That's right, when it was its own bill, it got shot down. They want to classify Vitamin B as a drug so that only the drug companies can sell it. And who's brainchild is this? Henry Waxman. Author of Cap and Tax. Yes you can throw lindsey graham on the suckass pile for his support of cap and tax. What about all the blue collar workers that dems care so much about that will lose their jobs if cap and tax goes through.
Value Added Tax? Don't get me started. Can you see the lesson from europe? Greece is burning because so many people are on the government dole or payroll and they are broke. When the country said we have to cut back they riot and burn the cities.
Spain tried all these green jobs years ago and destroyed their private sector. How's that working for them now. They are one of the next to implode.
How does borrowing more money to pay for money previously borrowed fix anybody's problem? Payday lending is the same thing on a small individual scale. If you get stuck in that trap, borrowing more from person B to pay back the Person A you owe just doesn't work.
How much more do you want? Obama likes Europe so much, go live in France and see how bad A.erica really is.
How about just the last two days when Obama let's a foreign president stand before congress and the public and say how bad we are because the citizens want a secure border and to stop illegal immigrants. Calderone said its Americas fault for the drug ways because we create a demand for the drugs and our assault weapons arm the cartels. He should have been bitch slapped right off the podium. Obama agrees with him saying how bad we are. Calderone and former Presidente Fox said illegal are not tolerated in Mexico. If you come legally and can't provide some good for the economy and take care of yourself, you are gone. Mexican police can and will stop you for no reason and force you to produce papers. And if you are a gringo, the hold you hostage for no reason until you pay a cash ransom to the police. Not a fine to the court. Cash to the police.
Obamas puppet assistant secretary of state in China telling the communist dictators that have some of the worst human rights violations how bad we are as a nation. Are you kidding me?
Obama taking control of banks, health insurance, complete control of student loans. How much more do you want. He said I don't have a problem with people making money. But there comes a point when you've made enough.
They are demonizing Goldman Sachs recently about how evil they are and how they lobby Congress to get there way. Guess who received the most money from Goldman? Senator and president O. Who runs treasury? Former Goldman execs. Demonizing BP. Same thing. The individual that received the most money from them? That's right, Obama.
Financial reform. How is it that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the two entities that are the most responsible for the housing crash are not even mentioned in the financial reform bill? Also, why is there language in that bill wanting to require supplement companies to provide clinical studies for naturally occuring substances? What the hell does that have to do with financial reform. Nothing. That's right, when it was its own bill, it got shot down. They want to classify Vitamin B as a drug so that only the drug companies can sell it. And who's brainchild is this? Henry Waxman. Author of Cap and Tax. Yes you can throw lindsey graham on the suckass pile for his support of cap and tax. What about all the blue collar workers that dems care so much about that will lose their jobs if cap and tax goes through.
Value Added Tax? Don't get me started. Can you see the lesson from europe? Greece is burning because so many people are on the government dole or payroll and they are broke. When the country said we have to cut back they riot and burn the cities.
Spain tried all these green jobs years ago and destroyed their private sector. How's that working for them now. They are one of the next to implode.
How does borrowing more money to pay for money previously borrowed fix anybody's problem? Payday lending is the same thing on a small individual scale. If you get stuck in that trap, borrowing more from person B to pay back the Person A you owe just doesn't work.
How much more do you want? Obama likes Europe so much, go live in France and see how bad A.erica really is.
B5150
Legend
This country's leadership is what is tearing down the fabric of the country.
Not only is Mexican President Felipe Calderon talking **** about our Constitution, he is doing so in our own house and our Commander in Chief is concurring with him.
It's one thing for me to talk **** about my country, in my country, because I am a citizen of this country and inherently possess the freedom of speech to do so, but to be such a liberal brown nose kiss ass piece of **** to allow and concur with some other foreigner to do so inside my own borders, inside my own house is another thing all together.
Obama is an embarrassment to us all for all the world to see.
He is no commander in chief by any definition.
Lacradocious
Member
Well now we have Obama catering to the Mexican president at the White House. And he stands there as Calderon basically bad mouths our country. He literally blamed us for the border issues due to our demand for drugs, and that mexican drug cartels are coming here to buy assault weapons. Then goes on to say that he supports all those who entered illegally.
A real American would have sent that ******* home.
Mexican law is even stricter on illegal immigration. They can actually deport their own citizens for helping illegal immigrants. Then Cuba jumps on the wagon and calls our law an "agregious abuse of civil rights". Coming from a country that has a mandatory federal ID and can send you home if your not in "your" part of the island.
If Mexico is so worried about it's citizens supposedly buying guns here (you do after all, have to be a legal citizen with a background check to buy guns last time I checked), then they obviously need to do a better job securing their border.
Idiots.
A real American would have sent that ******* home.
Mexican law is even stricter on illegal immigration. They can actually deport their own citizens for helping illegal immigrants. Then Cuba jumps on the wagon and calls our law an "agregious abuse of civil rights". Coming from a country that has a mandatory federal ID and can send you home if your not in "your" part of the island.
If Mexico is so worried about it's citizens supposedly buying guns here (you do after all, have to be a legal citizen with a background check to buy guns last time I checked), then they obviously need to do a better job securing their border.
Idiots.
youngandfree
Well-known member
I am watching a special on TLC about flight 125 that hit the WTC on 9/11/01. I am reminded of the tragedy that day at the hands of RADICAL ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS? I am reminded if Eric Holder refusing less than a week ago to even say the phrase when testifying about the failed Time Square bomber.
Since Obama took office, there have been 2 shootings committed by RADICAL ISLMAMIC TERRORISTS. One at the Army recruiting center and the Fort Hood shooting. Then there were 2 attempted bombings, the Christmas day panty bomber and the Time Square attempt. Both have admitted and been proven to have been on assignment for Jihad. Yet this administration REFUSES to admit it and still sucks the jock of Islam. They appease the Radicals who have admitted to being at war with the US and wanting to kill the "infidels ". As an American, when your President that you Proudly voted for HTS, refuses to take necessary steps to use intel and info to stop these attempts, you should be so vehemently pissed your head is going to explode.
When the AG Holder's own law firm is in Gitmo defending RADICAL ISLAMISTS against the atrocities of the US and trying to get them released so the can rejoin the Jihad. Are you just blind and ignorant to see how wrong and UN american that is?
Since Obama took office, there have been 2 shootings committed by RADICAL ISLMAMIC TERRORISTS. One at the Army recruiting center and the Fort Hood shooting. Then there were 2 attempted bombings, the Christmas day panty bomber and the Time Square attempt. Both have admitted and been proven to have been on assignment for Jihad. Yet this administration REFUSES to admit it and still sucks the jock of Islam. They appease the Radicals who have admitted to being at war with the US and wanting to kill the "infidels ". As an American, when your President that you Proudly voted for HTS, refuses to take necessary steps to use intel and info to stop these attempts, you should be so vehemently pissed your head is going to explode.
When the AG Holder's own law firm is in Gitmo defending RADICAL ISLAMISTS against the atrocities of the US and trying to get them released so the can rejoin the Jihad. Are you just blind and ignorant to see how wrong and UN american that is?
chocolatemilk
Well-known member
One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America
Guys seriously tho, I mean on that level of government, we're talking about a country's relationship to another country. Border country's in the case of Mexico and America. That is quite a big deal here. Giving someone a piece of your mind and hurting a relationship between border countries is by no means a small thing. Trade, imports, exports, immigration, resources, defense, geography, economy and more is shared by these countries.
I would have loved to see someone call that Mexican presidents ass out on what he was saying.. but let's face it.. it wasn't gonna happen with Obama, and it wasn't gonna happen with the other 95% of politicians. Very few would stand up to that because of what's at stake. So before we bash Obama "one big ass mistake America" for what he did, lets just remember he did what 95% of our politicians would do. IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Big
Ass
Mistake
America
Guys seriously tho, I mean on that level of government, we're talking about a country's relationship to another country. Border country's in the case of Mexico and America. That is quite a big deal here. Giving someone a piece of your mind and hurting a relationship between border countries is by no means a small thing. Trade, imports, exports, immigration, resources, defense, geography, economy and more is shared by these countries.
I would have loved to see someone call that Mexican presidents ass out on what he was saying.. but let's face it.. it wasn't gonna happen with Obama, and it wasn't gonna happen with the other 95% of politicians. Very few would stand up to that because of what's at stake. So before we bash Obama "one big ass mistake America" for what he did, lets just remember he did what 95% of our politicians would do. IMO. Correct me if I'm wrong.
timmmah
Active member
EasyEJL
Never enough
You're wrong. We have an overall negative relationship with Mexico from the USA perspective. We have a trade deficit with them, they constantly have illegal aliens crossing the border. We get nothing significant in resources from them as they don't have much worthwhile, and the USA is bountiful. Defense? How exactly do they contribute to our defense? they don't, if anything they are a detriment to it with the drug cartels and gangs. Sure we share geography with them but who cares? its a big black hole that radical islamic terrorists could manage to use to sneak either biological or small nuclear weapons through.
So screw Calderon + Mexico. Obama is a useless piece of crap for agreeing with him on any piece of that nonsense. He should have told him to shut his trap and get the hell out of the White House.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
I am not going to even begin arguing for or against Obama. I still am very proud of my vote, although I don't agree with everyone of his actions. Unfortuantely, what you guys don't realize is you were the minority here. Obama made promises and of a great majority (when he could get passed republicans who have made a joke of the legal process by just voting against anything Obama suggests) he has followed through.
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Remember the majority voted for him, when he stated many of these "Un-American" actions previous to election. Seems like to the conservative crowd however, if you are not republican, you are not american. Oh well, the trending towards liberalism continues with every generation.
Also please don't quote a lack of intel usage from Obama. There have been numerous statements of intel previous to 9/11 that good ol' Bush couldn't do anything about. He is big on security when it will line up oil profits and and benefit war profiteers.
There are just as many whites abusing medical situations, as I said previously, it sounds like a health reform in general is needed. And remember, this is coming from an industry insider, as a health agent and with many close contacts working at the big companies, Blue Cross, Humana, Aetna, etc... They won't bat an eye at bringing me out to high end steak houses, giving me suite access to major sport events, etc. Then the next day call me to bitch about profits thanks to Obama. These companies make HUGE ****ing profit margins, which is why the fabric of health care costs are so ****ed up. If you want to quote medical costs, why dont we consider all options as well, such as insane caps on malpractice? This is the number one cost driving portion that raises health costs. Why don't we discuss the heterogeneity of health care costs? An example of this: A blue cross might pay a contracted rate of $2500 for a surgery, the same surgery will cost $3000 to Aetna, $2000 to Humana, $3500 Assurant. Walk in without insurance and that will cost you $10,000. Explain why this is ok. (Before you state that's why you have insurance, I am stating my opinion as it is not ok for the cost to be different depending on which company you are with or if you don't insure. And it is not a poor thing, people of wealth do not insure because health insurance is capped between 2-8million of lifetime benefit depending on the policy, and the wealthy can easily afford to pay that in full.)
Taxes are paid through sales tax as well. And the majority of illegals that are working pay the taxes they are required, without question. Others, never file for a return even when they are entitled money (A point brought up previously by someone on your side of the argument).
In the situation of "Joe," your boss is to blame. I have stated my opinion on this previously.
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Remember the majority voted for him, when he stated many of these "Un-American" actions previous to election. Seems like to the conservative crowd however, if you are not republican, you are not american. Oh well, the trending towards liberalism continues with every generation.
Also please don't quote a lack of intel usage from Obama. There have been numerous statements of intel previous to 9/11 that good ol' Bush couldn't do anything about. He is big on security when it will line up oil profits and and benefit war profiteers.
There are just as many whites abusing medical situations, as I said previously, it sounds like a health reform in general is needed. And remember, this is coming from an industry insider, as a health agent and with many close contacts working at the big companies, Blue Cross, Humana, Aetna, etc... They won't bat an eye at bringing me out to high end steak houses, giving me suite access to major sport events, etc. Then the next day call me to bitch about profits thanks to Obama. These companies make HUGE ****ing profit margins, which is why the fabric of health care costs are so ****ed up. If you want to quote medical costs, why dont we consider all options as well, such as insane caps on malpractice? This is the number one cost driving portion that raises health costs. Why don't we discuss the heterogeneity of health care costs? An example of this: A blue cross might pay a contracted rate of $2500 for a surgery, the same surgery will cost $3000 to Aetna, $2000 to Humana, $3500 Assurant. Walk in without insurance and that will cost you $10,000. Explain why this is ok. (Before you state that's why you have insurance, I am stating my opinion as it is not ok for the cost to be different depending on which company you are with or if you don't insure. And it is not a poor thing, people of wealth do not insure because health insurance is capped between 2-8million of lifetime benefit depending on the policy, and the wealthy can easily afford to pay that in full.)
Taxes are paid through sales tax as well. And the majority of illegals that are working pay the taxes they are required, without question. Others, never file for a return even when they are entitled money (A point brought up previously by someone on your side of the argument).
In the situation of "Joe," your boss is to blame. I have stated my opinion on this previously.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
You might not have, but the examples of extreme violence and shootings presented by others as the core of the problem ARE drug cartels.
I have stated previously that Obama handled the manner in a way contrary to my views. I believe in good relations, but not as it was handled, and not at the expense of border security.
America is fueling the drug war, plain and simple. I am in Chicago and love going to clubs. The amount of coke floating around these clubs is insanely prevelant. I smoke pot, many of my friends smoke pot. Pot can be a simple phone call away at any point in the day. All over the streets are homeless who clearly shows signs of heavy meth, heroin and crack cocaine addictions. The country fuels the demand, Mexican cartels decided to get the piece of the pie we created. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is. The drug war, a very republican based agenda, as made it so that drugs are a manner of criminal profit. (Think Prohibition of Alcohol - Al Capone, etc.) Meanwhile the drug war costs us a ton of money in enforement, training, and jail funding. No conservative cries out toward this.
Don't agree with this as well.
I am for regulation and a full socialized medicine program, as I said I work in the industry, so unless your opinion is formulated from anything but what you read on the internet/fox news/radio, I won't discuss that further. Banks need heavy regulation, I am for that. Complete control of students loans I don't support 100%, but it very much needed more regulation as well. Either way, the government dominated the market previous to the take over. I am considering law school, and will very happily take 100% of my loan through the government.
You won't get me on this one. I believe that Public officials shouldn't see a penny from any corporation. Another regulation I would love to see passed. But don't state Obama when the Conservatives are NOTORIOUS for taking heavy payouts. My dad has lobbied congressman for issues related to his industry, and although I didn't get into details because I dont care to, I am glad to know it did not include a money transfer. Congress is a machine of the corporations. Conservatives cry that they want thier country back? Here is a good place to start.
And please don't de-criminalize Goldman and BP. Goldman can rot in hell, and BP is taking a very big enviornmental concern as a dent in profits. Don't make them out to be anything but a money-making powerhouse that can give a **** about thier ill effects.
The supplement comment is worthless to me as well. Why are they pushing for regulation, because congressman are being compensated to heavily by pharma companies that have a stake in seeing supplements get banned. So I am completely against that as well, and again address the lobbying efforts seen in congress. Just as you mentioned, There are republicans on it as well.
If you are not willing to discuss other aspects of other countries that work that we refuse to enforce, such as socialized medicine, then why must I address other country's policies when they support your argument?
I am very back and forth on all the financials that have been discussed recently, but how do you propose he let this happen? Give a conservative free market approach and watch numerous businesses crash and burn and open the job market to 100s of thousands of freshly unemployed?
416
New member
I am in the industry also and of all the people I deal with in the industry I know one person who thinks socialized healthcare is agood thing.I also know people from canada and england who say the system they have is great for colds,flu, fractures ect. but for anything major such as cancer they would come here.Several I know have.So are there problems with our system yes but socializing it is a terrible idea.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
In what portion of the industry are you in? I will easily admit I am probably 1 of a million in the industry that wants socialized medicine. The reason why? My job isn't dependent on industry profits, and I don't plan to keep the position long term. The actual industry is amongst the biggest opponents, but they have the most to lose. Every week I have at least one person who is completely uninsurable, and I can guarantee you that if they could easily get citizenship and be part of a socialized program in a different country they would. A majority of this countries individual bankruptcies are due to medical expenses, and thats a damn shame.
youngandfree
Well-known member
HTS, a couple points. You say America is fueling the demand for drugs and something should be done. How about YOU stop being part of the problem. Just like a liberal, you admit to being a drug user and then deflect any responsibility for your actions to the homeless addicts.
I agree Republicans are just as guilty receiving money, but can't you admit its pretty hypocritical for Obama to demonize BP and Goldman when he alone was the largest recipient of money from these two companies.
Healthcare reform. Why do you feel so strongly about destroying the entire system for everyone for such a small percentage of people. Since you are an insider how about explaining why numerous high ranking public officials from other countries with socialized medicine come here to have procedures done? its a good thing you don't plan on being there long, because if this goes into effect, it will crash and destroy all the insurance companies. What about the millions of people that work in that industry that will lose their jobs. I thought the administration has laser like focus on job creation but his policies keep killing jobs. How's that stimulus job creation plan going?
This whole send money started with TARP which was a bad idea. To make it worse, they decided a couple months later they weren't going to use it the way it was initially intended. That's what started this spending spree. Aside from basic liberal ideology.
I agree Republicans are just as guilty receiving money, but can't you admit its pretty hypocritical for Obama to demonize BP and Goldman when he alone was the largest recipient of money from these two companies.
Healthcare reform. Why do you feel so strongly about destroying the entire system for everyone for such a small percentage of people. Since you are an insider how about explaining why numerous high ranking public officials from other countries with socialized medicine come here to have procedures done? its a good thing you don't plan on being there long, because if this goes into effect, it will crash and destroy all the insurance companies. What about the millions of people that work in that industry that will lose their jobs. I thought the administration has laser like focus on job creation but his policies keep killing jobs. How's that stimulus job creation plan going?
This whole send money started with TARP which was a bad idea. To make it worse, they decided a couple months later they weren't going to use it the way it was initially intended. That's what started this spending spree. Aside from basic liberal ideology.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
I am completely 150% for the legalization of marijuana. I can't be convinced that there is any honest reason it is not legal. It is healthier/safer then alcohol, non-addictive (sans mental-associative-addiiction, which can happen with anything), and simply my choice. As a conservative I am sure (but not positive) you are for deregulation - prohibition would be a good start.
Every administration is full of ****, Obama is not the first. I mentioned numerous times previously that I am not part of the Obama religion AT ALL. I do think he was the better choice and still happy I voted for him, but the only politician I will every 100% agree with is myself, and I feel most people are quite similar. If the money was received by Obama, which I am not denying just stating I didn't know of it, then that is very hypocritical. Doesn't mean I am going to look at the corporations any differently however.
The problem is, that health shouldn't be a for profit option. Over 50% of US bankruptcies are health related. Health insurance companies have teams that investigate every claim to hell, finding the one minor loophole for why they shouldn't pay. Have a preexisting condition? Depending on what it is you will either be Rated, (a price increase, - my favorite option because at least they get the coverage), Denied (obvious usual solution), or receive a Rider (basically a policy stating we will protect you from everything else, except for what your problem is).
Currently 16% of adults in the US are uninsured. Now I am not a political bull****ter, so I will not say that they are all uninsured because of preexisting conditions, but I will easily say that a good majority of them probably are. I dont consider that "such a small group of people."
We are one of the few countries without socialized medicine. Why do the rich come here for procedures oh high medical importance? We have much much better doctors then 90% of the world in the United States. It isn't about a "waiting" thing as most say. The stuff you wait for is stuff with no medical urgency. I have family in Italy, a country of socialized medicine, who had to wait to receive a procedure. The procedure was surgery in the mouth to correct position of rear molar teeth after an accident. She waited about a month. This can be frustrating, but it cost her $0. Now lets put it into light of how that would have been handled in the US:
I will use Blue Cross PPO dental, arguably the best on the individual market in IL. I understand some group policies have cadillac plans for dental as well, but not as many as you think. Anyways let say the procedure cost 5,000, which is a low estimate for reconstructive surgery by an oral surgeon.
First and foremost, to have her policy she would have paid 26.55/m. 318.60 for the year. Now for the surgery she would have had a $50 deductible. 368.60 spent. Now the company has a per year benefit capped at 1,500, so she would have spent 3,500. Add in the 368.60 and we reach 3,868.60 that she would have spent to have immediate care for a non urgent surgery. Or she could have waited a month and received it for free. Dental is not the prime example, BUT I have a real world example to demonstrate.
This will not crash and burn the companies as it is now. In fact my side of things will be a hell of a lot easier. The people who will lose their jobs are underwriters, those who review applications in every little detail and stamp a denial on them. Industry regulations can bring a difference in job positions, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they will lose their jobs, but underwriters are such a small percentage of the industry. The companies will do fine. They basically will increase the rates of anyone who has a preexisting up to the legal maximum. Remember, what we have now is not a public option.
The administration has finally reversed the downward trend and the job market is now in a creation phase. Not to sure how else to handle this.
Ugh, I hate addressing that liberals spend so much money:
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youngandfree
Well-known member
Well the Mexican drug cartels do carry tons of marijuana into the country, so regardless of safety, you are part of the demand.
What upward trend in jobs in the private sector are there? An increase in government jobs don't help the economy. 160,000 census jobs that were created are only temporary and tax payers are paying for them. Not profit from private companies.
Lastly and I am done. There is a reason this country has produced more wealth than any other nation in history. Its because America was created to be different than everyone else. If you make 30,000/yr here, you are in the top 7% in the world. The reason all the other socialist countries are so much poorer is because what wealth there is, its sucked up by the politicians and dictators that run them. America is great for a reason. Why are so my people so hell bent on destroying it? There us a reason the USSR collapsed. There is a reason Greece is in the dire trouble its in. Do you want to see people rioting in Chicago because they are mad the government stops giving them everything and they might have to do something for a living? I just don't get it. This country has produced the most wealth than all the other countries combined. The government can't great wealth. They just "redistribute" it. The only thing socialism does is take away peoples incentive to be work and be creative. It punishes the producers. It punishes the "rich". I just don't get it.
Aside from politicians of both sides and the cap they do. All you have to do is look at history and compare the standard of living in socialized countries and here. Don't look at free healthcare in Italy, you have to look at the whole picture. Even the poor people have it so much better here than anywhere else. Remember the origin topic, mexicans come here for a reason. They have it so bad here and are so poor) yet the money they send back to Mexico is billions of dollars.
The cummulative effect if government providing so much stuff is a lower standard of living. For EVERYONE. Not just the rich as the politicians make you believe. It punishes everyone.
No hard feelings to you. I'm just passionate about the future of the country. It won't matter pretty soon cause Jesus is coming. When Iran attacks Israel and we don't defend them, its over. All nations will turn against Israel and I guess we are included. I just wouldn't have guessed it would be like this.
What upward trend in jobs in the private sector are there? An increase in government jobs don't help the economy. 160,000 census jobs that were created are only temporary and tax payers are paying for them. Not profit from private companies.
Lastly and I am done. There is a reason this country has produced more wealth than any other nation in history. Its because America was created to be different than everyone else. If you make 30,000/yr here, you are in the top 7% in the world. The reason all the other socialist countries are so much poorer is because what wealth there is, its sucked up by the politicians and dictators that run them. America is great for a reason. Why are so my people so hell bent on destroying it? There us a reason the USSR collapsed. There is a reason Greece is in the dire trouble its in. Do you want to see people rioting in Chicago because they are mad the government stops giving them everything and they might have to do something for a living? I just don't get it. This country has produced the most wealth than all the other countries combined. The government can't great wealth. They just "redistribute" it. The only thing socialism does is take away peoples incentive to be work and be creative. It punishes the producers. It punishes the "rich". I just don't get it.
Aside from politicians of both sides and the cap they do. All you have to do is look at history and compare the standard of living in socialized countries and here. Don't look at free healthcare in Italy, you have to look at the whole picture. Even the poor people have it so much better here than anywhere else. Remember the origin topic, mexicans come here for a reason. They have it so bad here and are so poor) yet the money they send back to Mexico is billions of dollars.
The cummulative effect if government providing so much stuff is a lower standard of living. For EVERYONE. Not just the rich as the politicians make you believe. It punishes everyone.
No hard feelings to you. I'm just passionate about the future of the country. It won't matter pretty soon cause Jesus is coming. When Iran attacks Israel and we don't defend them, its over. All nations will turn against Israel and I guess we are included. I just wouldn't have guessed it would be like this.