ELIMINATION OF ALL SIDES N SHUTDOWN

qwestor

New member
STACK PULSING

MAINTAINING AN ANABOLIC ENVIRONMENT WHILE MINIMIZING SIDES

We all owe a debt of gratitude to Dr.D for thinking outside the box to introduce the concept of
“pulsing” to the community. To further that evolution let us consider the next step..STACK PULSING.
..building on the reasoning behind pulsing.

Pulsing is designed to enable an optimal balance between maintaining an enhanced anabolic environment while minimizing sides, shutdown, recovery and possibly extending “time on”. To that end the ideal agents chosen are those with relatively short half lives. Why? Because they allow for substantial clearance from the system on the “off days” in order for the body to re-attempt equilibrium from the periods “on” where we are looking to enhance the bodies response to exercise/growth stimulation. SD and Epistane/Havoc are the classic pulse candidates. However others have selected with success a host of other category products.

Following that reasoning...periods of anabolic agents in the system alternated with periods where the body is comparatively clear of them...the purpose and process is revealed. Rather than aiming for a cumulative buildup in the system of the particular agent..such as say is the function and intention with halodrol...pulsing is designed to do just the opposite...stop such steady state presence/accumulation from occurring. It is not dependent on the ongoing continuous un-broken presence of the agent in the body. The idea is to provide the most efficacious isolated targeted periodic anabolic assistance to the growth stimulation event...then ..stop. On again off again....the frequency of such alternations varying broadly...from 5-10 mg of SD once a week to 2 weeks on 2 weeks off cycles with same day agent stacking during “on” times.

A further possibility then suggests itself. Since the goal is not the focus on a particular agents continuous presence/input but rather its periodic “re-introduction” after its been cleared from the system, to provide anabolic “bumps”...why not provide such assists with a different agent ..or string of agents..altogether...thus...ST ACK PULSING.

STACK PULSING...the pulsing of 2 or more agents...serially...during the designated pulse cycle. The possibilities are almost endless. Choose say any of 2 or 5....anabolic agents and string them along the pulse chain. SD, epistane/havoc , phera, m1,4add, tren/trenadol for example. Alternate wet/dry, class 1/class2, estrogen/dht/progestin, methyl/un-methylated, etc products throughout the cycle..hell if you're feeling frisky dust some of the M1T lying around haunting the shadows of the basement and throw it in there now and then.

Not only are we maintaining the anabolic environment but now we are additionally substantially minimizing the individual sides that are specific to any particular agent because of its relative infrequent contribution overall.

Keep some 6 bromo, formestane, dhea, liver aids,torem, clomid handy for use as advised on these forums and you're good to go.

It is up to you and your open source creative thinking and application of the modality to explore and exploit all the possibilities that this presents. I welcome your open-minded and considered contributions to this submission. Together we grow..as safely as possible.
 
i m not sure if my proposal is ..obscure..n perhaps that is the problem..i tried to frame it in terms of the general principles of pulsing which i assume all in this thread r familiar w..n able to extrapolate from there to the serial rotational intermittent periodic ingestion of these agent in alternating fashion in the pulse cycle chain

wet..dry...wet..dry ..wet..dry....etc

meth..non-m...meth...non-m...etc

class 1...class 2...class 1 ...class 2...etc

eod.......M_W_F........2days on...2 days off.........2 weeks on ..2 weeks off..etc

bearing in mind that within these categories there r several agents allowing one to select their favorite in the category ..or opting for more variety/diversity alternating to another in that category the next time that category pulse day presents itself in the cycle..thus

wet agent 1...dry agent 1...wet agent 2 .dry agent 2....wet agent 1..dry agent 1...n so on............(wet 3 ???)

the same alternations n agent changes can apply w methyls...classes...dht/estrogen/progestins ..etc

pulsing principles assumed: anabolic bumps followed by mini recovery off periods..minimizing sides shutdowns n desensitization of receptors

look either pulsing DOES stand for relative sub-clinical clearance of individual agents from the system ...or..

.....if it DOES NOT ...n still depends somehow on the continued presence OF THAT SPECIFIC/PARTICULAR AGENTS ongoing contribution ..no matter how minimal ...for the pulse to work (which case i suggest undermines n contradicts the actual theoretical foundation on which pulsing is based)

if it DOES rest on clearance ...then there is no theoretical objection to providing the next anabolic bump from an entirely different category agent or same category different agent...which if true has obvious benefits..safety as one...fresh receptors as another

...in other words keep rotating to a different category agent(s) or same category different agents ...or some alternating combo thereof..at each pulse point

even if pulsing DOES NOT rest on clearance....but somehow depend on these ongoing sub-clinical presences of THE SAME AGENT...it still does not preclude the possibility that STACK PULSING on its own conceptual basis cannot also provide an alternative efficacious means to possibly even more desirably achieve our purposes

can we have a thoughtful exploration of this guys??
 
Subb
 
Subb
 
OK..so far STACKING n PULSING ….as commonly understood n utilized....r accepted practices n the theoretical foundations on which they rest r generally accepted.

We have our favorite same day stacks..say epi/tren ..n..those that r transitioned one agent to another during the overall cycle..say SD/phera

Pulsing may for some involve use a same day 2 agent combo each pulse day..tho that is admittedly uncommon..BUT..not precluded in theory as a possibility

Now we know when we design our stacks y we select the particular agents n c them as complimentary..not duplicative..n not being more harmful in combo...

soooooooooooo............

lets say we have EPI/HAVOC...SD....PHERA.....M1,4ADD.....TREN/TRENADROL...M1T...
in our inventory...(feel free to suggest others)

How would u guys ...just as an exercise ….using standard stacking ...pulsing...principles....rotate these agents serially ..throughout a pulse cycle....

..in other words...how would u ….STACK PULSE
 
Boy..u guys r tuff ..like pulling teeth..to entice u to post

I can't believe that there aren't some of u out there who c huge potential in this...some who at least find it interesting...n..those who think its ...INSANE......if u r of the later persuasion I only ask u provide a fairly reasoned argument for your objection

look taken separately...stacking n pulsing..r generally accepted...the next step is to examine whether these 2 relatively sound approaches can be combined …??????????.....to produce either a superior outcome...or at least n alternative method that has its own unique benefits

will no one take a chance on speculation at least...if not yet an actual trial???

lets stipulate that any contribution to the discussion on this concept is just ...SPECULATING...so no one feels foolish taking a stab

OR..r u waiting for DrD to post to c which side of the issue to safely commit to????

hey ..time to leave the apron strings of the master....Dr D ….n use all u learned from him to think independently

DrD if u r following this n r at all interested..wait to post for awhile n gives these guys a chance to step up n show their stuff..after tho I would appreciate your input
 
too much reading needed, and that makes it look complicated.
i'll stick to runing my cycles regular. but keep this thread going, i may wat to look into this idea in the future.
 
hey...thanks for your input...somethings going on to slow this down..maybe your onto the reason..if i didn't really think it had something of real value to offer once its fully developed in the community...i'd have given up already....get subbed
 
does it really matter what substance you are using? hormone levels are affected either way. and the duration/extent of those hormonal effects is directly related to shutdown.
 
So what would this mean for the liver...

I've not seen a compelling reason to pulse, other than maybe I would speculate it would be easier on the Liver. Actually I havn't done my homework on the type of EoD pulsing I've seen talked about alot. But this does sound interesting, given my plan to run a 2 on/2 off protocol next month.

Subbed.
 
soontobbeast said:
does it really matter what substance you are using? hormone levels are affected either way. and the duration/extent of those hormonal effects is directly related to shutdown.
Click to expand...

Yah the idea is to use substances that have a short half life. That way when u pulse it clears your system quickly so your body will only have a short term dip in hormone levels before going back to homeostasis. From Dr D's original pulsing thread it seems SD, Epi, and Dbol are the products of choice for pulsing.

I've never run a pulse but from reading that monster tread on pulsin it seems three days on a week max is the consensus. Like M W F on - T R Sat Sun Off. The two day a week off seemed suggested by Dr D as well to give a small extended break each week.

Some in the thread even were trying two days on a week and other pulsing mixtures.

my 2 cents
 
soontobbeast said:
does it really matter what substance you are using? hormone levels are affected either way. and the duration/extent of those hormonal effects is directly related to shutdown.
Click to expand...

as a general prop true..but there r meaningful differences between agents that r useful to consider in many respects
 
HERE'S THE THING....

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME...its about “us”...n whether as a community we can flesh out a number of sensibly crafted STACK PULSE (SP) schedules...for those brave pioneers who c the sense n value in the approach to try.

It ..IS NOT ….a particular SP protocol...it is about feeling reasonably confident that the approach rests squarely n safely on the shoulders of 2 tried n true approaches (OK ..not all of u love pulsing) ..n then from there proposing exploring debating n finally..hopefully..reaching a consensus on a number...several..possible protocols for real world trials.

Obvious considerations r :

the agents: 1/2 life*.....class ...wetness..methyl-ness..harshness...estro/progest/dht....2 on same pulse day???.....what strengths.....(anything else???)

*(according to sticky ½ lives M1T – 6 hrs....Phera ~9 hrs..n M1,4ADD...converting to dianna has this interesting morning bridge potential to play with)

the pulse periods: eod....MWF.....2 on – 2-3 off* ....2x's a week...2 weeks on/off...etc (* my preference)

on cycle support...n appropriate pct …..........to agents selected

While this may be around somewhere I m unaware of its presentation..for me it is an original concept...giving due deference to its parents...stack n pulsing theory n practice

i've been my own lab rat for a year....n since it was new n experimental w me ..i played around town..mostly on feel..n body feedback...i followed the theory widely varying agents n pulse periods
…..n m very happy....steady strength...feeling great -”on” confident not nasty...libido high...ball size full...few injuries that heal quickly....no shedding at all..(which in the past did happen)...most important ..2 full labs....6 months apart..everything...EVERYTHING....within normal ranges

My lifts r great ..tho now lovin strong man lifts..gym kinda routine..this a whole different sense of overall body strength u gotta feel to appreciate...n I can keep 230 lbs on under 2000 cal a day w this assist

BUT...REALLY..this is not about me...i don't want to reduce this to me ..my protocols..experiences results..I..THEY ...MEAN NOTHING....JUST ANECDOTAL!!!!!!!! ...PROVES NOTHING

I m primarily interested in establishing the theoretical foundations of the SP concept..collectively coming up w some good protocols ...having some trials n logs...utilizing the law of large numbers to be able to draw some valid conclusions/results to build further on..IF WE CAN TOGETHER COME UP W SOMETHING SOUND..we can have confidence to go forward with

look anecdotal evidence is fun ..interesting..n absent anything else can give “clues' as to possibilities..but its not science..which needs to rest on reasonable hypotheses to legitimize real trials..which here again..i stress ...r still well within the confines of established practice here

when a company introduces a new product..its kinda like ..plug n play...everyone uses their favorite protocol..n sees how it turns out comparatively to their prior experiences

Here more is involved..selection ..rotation of agents..n protocols that may themselves based on the agents chosen...yeah its more work..but in my strong belief ..well worth the group effort

hey in the end...i m there...on my own..if need b..but I m not a know it all..n realize the great benefit of group think contributions...

...n a desire to share something good w y'all
 
a question asked

madds87 said:
i would be interested in this pulsing stack. I pulse all the time with super and epi. I have not tried to ph in a pulse... might be an interesting idea.
Click to expand...

hey..thanks for posting on this..

not sure what your exactly claiming...u say u pulse all the time..but then say.."i have not tried to ph in a pulse"

ok ..lets say u choose to stack pulse SD n EPI...lets analyze:

SD: class 2..harsher for most..i say dry..some say wet..some say potential delayed (2-3 months) gyno..so care on pct..ez on hair..some get libido boost for awhile..people have low dosed it as little as 5-10 mg 1-2X's a week

EPI: class 1..milder...dry...low dose anti-gyno..hi dose some get gyno on cycle(me)..delayed negative for hair (2-3 months after cycle )..amenable to most pulse protocols

both methyls n 5-a reduced.......anything else relevant/important???

so lets say...JUST SAYING.....Monday Epi - select dose.....Wednesday SD 10 mg...Friday Epi - select dose

just ...ONE ...OF MANY....possible set-ups

say following week M-SD - 5 mg...W-Epi....F (heavy train day - SD-10 mg)..back to Epi first on following Monday

feeling sides on SD..lower dose..or do a few pulse days following on Epi before going back to SD...Epi sides predominating??..just saying..favor SD for awhile..c how u respond..maybe a week ..M -SD 10 mg...Thurs - Epi

could u take some combo of SD n Epi each pulse day..possibly...adjusting each dose appropriately..n even varying the individual proportions on different combo days

in other words ..the designs r many..but...think of some rationale for why u pick agents..their characteristics...your needs n reactions..the feedback your body seems to b giving u ..n decide how u want to ..finesse..the dose n schedule

when is your heaviest day..is that the best day to SD ???

if u review the above it seems within the guidelines of typical usage n safety should b as well
 
btw..joints feeling "scratchy"..on all that SD n Epi..???..try a interruption week pulse w phera or m1,4 add...now your "beginning" to...STACK PULSE ...baby !!!!
 
Just read through alot of Dr. D's thread on pulsing. Someone there also asked about 2 weeks on/2 weeks off, but with two methyls, switching which methyl to use every day. IE Superdrol monday, Epi tuesday, Superdrol wednesday, wash rinse repeat for the whole two weeks. The idea wasn't exactly shot down immediately, and Dr. D seemed to think it was reasonable.

Since the idea of pulsing is based on a dosing schedule for children on corticosteroids to avoid HPTA shutdown, maybe there is clinical research on appropriate dosing for children requiring more than one medication that causes HPTA shutdown? Probably a stretch there, but might be worth looking into.
 
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I'll chime in with my thoughts based on what I have read here, and my concerns.

I like the idea of pulsing, but Im not a fan of throwing in multiple ph's as mentioned above in the epi\sd pulse w\ m14add to moisten up those scratchy joints.
Why do I fell this way? How soon will you see the m14add add relief to those scratchy joints?

An idea I have had in my mind is not so much a pulse, but low dose application of strong ph\ds such as sd or pp.. do 3 weeks straight but start at 5mg 1x daily for 1st week, and 2nd week 10mgs 1x daily, and 3rd week 15 mg's.

Basically I would cut down the full recommended dosage i.e. 30mg's daily by 50% on for the last week of a full cycle.

All I have learned so far are what to stack i.e. methyls\non-methyls, class1/class2,short half life=great pulse candidate, and thats a foundation (hopefully not a shaky and weak one) I would use for any cycle.

It would be nice to find out the half life of all compounds available, and their classification i.e. class1\class2.. I do wonder why stack 2 methyls even if they are class1&class2 compounds and risk liver injury, would such a stack be a candidate for a pulse? Purus Labs m14e comes to mind as its an epi\m14add comb, would that qualify for a pulse m-w-f at recommended dose?


Thats all I can think of at the moment, and again this is based on my understanding of what I have read. I feel this thread allows for us to cut loose a bit with no risk to health :)

MK9
 
I found this on another site and am not taking ANY credit whatsoever, and am not sure how accurate it is cause I found sd listed in both dry and wet category for ph's.
Here is the link to the site itself Invalid Link Removed, so in the meantime we can use this as a reference point and make corrections if needed i.e. why is sd in both wet and dry?

Pro-hormone "Traits"

The difference between "wet" and "dry" steroids/phs is water retention. Water retention is caused by estrogen conversion through aromatase.

WET:
- M1,4ADD
- Pheraplex
- M1T (and subsequent legal variants/clones)
- *Superdrol

DRY:
- Bold (Being reviewed by DEA for possible banning)
- Epistane (AKA Havoc)
- Tren
- *Superdrol
- Halodrol
- Winztrol (banned?)
- Furazadrol
- Prop

STRENGTH:
- Tren (Being reviewed by DEA for possible banning as we speak)
- Superdrol
- M1T(and legal clones)
- Pheraplex and clones (Being reviewed by DEA for possible banning as we speak)
- M14ADD

Pro-hormone Classification

Steroids are classified under 2 categories. Class I has a strong binding to the androgen receptor. Class II does not bind to the androgen receptors, rather it works through other means in the body.

Cliff's notes of the above statement:

Class I = binds to androgen receptor
Class II = does not

These pro-hormone classifications are based on their steroid counterparts. If there are any revisions needed PLEASE post so below. If that goes unnoticed, PM me.

Class I

Boldenone based - 1,4AD & Bold
Progestin based - (similar to trenbolone) - Trenadrol & Trenaplex
Dienolone based - (again similar to tren) - Mdien
Mepitiostane (Thioderon) based - Epistane & Clones (like Havoc & so on so forth)
Desoxymethyltestosterone/DMT (Madol) based phs - Pheraplex & clones
Testosterone
DHT (Dihydrotestosterone) based phs - M5AA

Class II

Masteron (Dromostanolone) based - Superdrol & Clones
Oral Turinabol (Dehydrochlormethyltestosterone) based - Halodrol & Clones
Dianabol (methandrostenolone) based - M1,4ADD, M1T, 1-T, Methyl XT
Winstrol (stanozolol) based - Winztrol, Orastan-A, Furaguno, etc
Furazabol (miotolan) based - Furazadrol etc
Progesterone based - Revolt, Propadrol, Max LMG
Clostebol based - Chlorodrol, Oxyguno
4-AD

Not Pro-hormones...

AMS's (Advanced Muscle Science) products - test boosters
Testabolan is not a prohormone, it is an ecdysterone, tribulus, oglio peptide product.
Superdrol NG - Prasterone = DHEA, Methyl Xanthine = Caffine, Aprodine HCL = Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride, ATD - test booster/aromatase inhibitor

I would like to add that Mass Tabs is a prosteroid - 2a, 17a-dimethyl 17b-hydroxy 5a-androstan-1-ene-3-one however since its close to about 3-4 steroids/other prohormone compounds out there, I can't classify it. I would guess its a class II though.

Stacking

If you plan on stacking two pro-hormones at the same time, the best combination are class I mixed with a class II. For example SD/Bold, Halo/Tren, M1T/Prop, and so on...

Here's why:
When you take a class I/class I stack, you're theoretically limiting your body's ability to suck up the little steroid molecules you're pumping into it. Think of it like a burger joint parking lot at lunchtime. There are no parking spots available, and you're stuck lying in line wait for a spot to open up.

However, with a class I/class II combination while one pro-hormone floats around binding to the androgen receptor, the other little guy is busy attaching itself to other parts of the body to encourage growth.
Click to expand...
 
class 1 and class 2 clasifications of steroids, atleast the ones posted above, are bro science, and pretty much, bull sh*t. no offense to anyone.

all steroids bind to the androgen receptor, all of them. a steroid isn't a steroid if it doesn't bind the the ar.
pro hormones are compounds that convert into an active steroid via enzymes in the body, and once converted into the active steroid, the all bind to the ar.
this isn't saying steroids dont also result in gains/sides through other means.
now, how strongly a compound binds to the ar is something.

the steroid in mass tabs isn't a pro steroid, the nomenclature is for stenbolone.
ams products like 1-ad (1-dhea), 4-ad (4-dhea), decavol (19nor-dhea) (dienodrone) (pro-dienolone) these are all pro hormones, or pro steroids.
dhea is a pro hormone.

the poster is trying to get on the right idea of stacking compounds, but they obviosly dont know enough about steroids to understand how they really work, and instead have made up a system, that kind of makes sense, if the properties of all the steroids were right, but they aren't.
 
MK9 said:
I'll chime in with my thoughts based on what I have read here, and my concerns.

I like the idea of pulsing, but Im not a fan of throwing in multiple ph's as mentioned above in the epi\sd pulse w\ m14add to moisten up those scratchy joints.
Why do I fell this way? How soon will you see the m14add add relief to those scratchy joints?

An idea I have had in my mind is not so much a pulse, but low dose application of strong ph\ds such as sd or pp.. do 3 weeks straight but start at 5mg 1x daily for 1st week, and 2nd week 10mgs 1x daily, and 3rd week 15 mg's.

Basically I would cut down the full recommended dosage i.e. 30mg's daily by 50% on for the last week of a full cycle.

All I have learned so far are what to stack i.e. methyls\non-methyls, class1/class2,short half life=great pulse candidate, and thats a foundation (hopefully not a shaky and weak one) I would use for any cycle.

It would be nice to find out the half life of all compounds available, and their classification i.e. class1\class2.. I do wonder why stack 2 methyls even if they are class1&class2 compounds and risk liver injury, would such a stack be a candidate for a pulse? Purus Labs m14e comes to mind as its an epi\m14add comb, would that qualify for a pulse m-w-f at recommended dose?


Thats all I can think of at the moment, and again this is based on my understanding of what I have read. I feel this thread allows for us to cut loose a bit with no risk to health :)

MK9
Click to expand...


well 2 things here on point of joint relief .......it comes from both break/time off SD/Epi AND estro contribution from M1,4 or Phera

"I feel this thread allows for us to cut loose a bit with no risk to health :)"

thats the goal

thanks btw for that classification post
 
a discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by djremix
SD, phera, m1t, havoc

week 1
3 day pulse(not consequetive) sd pre, havoc after
week 2
2 day pulse (3 days in between) M-1t
week 3
3 day pulse havoc pre and phera after
week 4 totally off(clomid+test boosters welcome)

personally id run test booster+low dose atd all throughout

RESPONSE:

ok..not to say u r wrong..just looking at things..

M1T...SD...HARSH PP...HAVOC...MILDER HAVOC..SD..DRY M1T..PP WET

i'd probably put a least week between m1t n sd..also not sure y?? a 3 week cycle only..especially if pulsing..n STACK PULSING n top of it...at least 4 weeks would seem ok

so say working w what seems to b your style..4-5 weeks pulse style

W1 3 days: P/H

W2 2 days: either SD or M1T

W3 3 days: P/H

W4 2 days: either SD or M1T (opposite W2)

W5 3 days: P/H

consider TOREM or RALOX
 
jbryand101b said:
class 1 and class 2 classifications of steroids, at least the ones posted above, are bro science, and pretty much, bull sh*t. no offense to anyone.

all steroids bind to the androgen receptor, all of them. a steroid isn't a steroid if it doesn't bind the the ar.
pro hormones are compounds that convert into an active steroid via enzymes in the body, and once converted into the active steroid, the all bind to the ar.
this isn't saying steroids don't also result in gains/sides through other means.
now, how strongly a compound binds to the ar is something.........

......the poster is trying to get on the right idea of stacking compounds, but they obviously don't know enough about steroids to understand how they really work, and instead have made up a system, that kind of makes sense, if the properties of all the steroids were right, but they aren't.
Click to expand...

Appreciate your post....back n forth ..is how to get this on firm ground

the particular classification sticky above has been around ..n as far as I know..i may b wrong..has gone unchallenged...by respected sources

but lets grant for the time being that the class1/2 distinction is invalid.. even if it were true ...in the universe of anabolic agents ...each has characteristics that distinguish it from its brethren sometimes subtlly...sometimes DRAMATICALLY....such as ..in no particular order:

harsher/milder....aromatizing/or not...wet/dry...re-comp/bulking/leaning....dht/progestin/other based....libido up/down....effect on hair ….gyno/or not.....anabolic/anti-catabolic...5a reduced/or not....methyl/non-methyl...17a/or not....different effects on a host of body systems n chemistry...etc

...simplistic ..but a observed user list......probably much more in number n nature can be forthcoming from a sophisticated pharmacological perspective..to deny this would really b to say that all anabolics r pretty much alike n no real basis exists for using one over another but personal preference.

so the question is...based on the above is...

Can the anabolic agent pie be sufficiently n legitimately ..from a pharmacology point of view....sliced/segmented/partitioned....to allow the serial differentiation rotation of agents that would/could produce...more better different... beneficial outcomes...as suggested here.???

To deny these marked differences would be really to de-legitimize the practice of stacking which seeks to construct diversity, complementarity n enhanced end outcomes by synergistically combining the uniquely different properties of the stacked agents either when stacked simultaneously or sequentially.

Pulsing n stacking seek to optimize the reward/risk balance response obtained....however best that is accomplished thru reasoned selection/rotation of agents based on their chemistry n observed characteristics

if you ..or anyone...has categorization suggestions in this regard beyond what is contained in the various forum stickies ..please share your findings w the community

 
My issue with pulsing

An immediate anecdotal sample of the effects of a pulse on bloodwork, from a quick google search (can't post links yet, dammit):

prohormoneforum.com/prohormone-forum/26696-epi-pulse-bloodwork.html

Used a 3x a week regimen of Epi pulsing. Testosterone and HDL took a substantial hit. Bloodwork was taken before PCT, in between pulse days.

His bloodwork aside, I cant say whether or not his results were impressive compared to natural gains, given he didn't post starting and finishing stats.

So, it seems to me that complete elimination of shutdown and the effects of toxicity is not easily attainable. Just based on one bit of anecdotal evidence, but I would like to see a readily available collection of bloodwork done on people who have tried this 3x a week dose schedule.

I believe the 2 on/2 off may be a better alternative, as shown in posts here by Libertarian and articles by Bill roberts. Shutdown is not avoided, but recovery during the 2 off is very rapid.
For what it's worth, my experience with my first and only cycle which was fortuitously cut short close to the 2 week mark supports that this may work for myself quite well.

anabolicminds.com/forum/old-school-hormone/148166-bill-roberts-2-a-2.html

anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/144423-liftingstuds-2wk-2wk.html

anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/139997-pulsing-m-drol.html

tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/2_weeker_1

mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/anabolic-steroid-cycle-planning.htm

I would rather not post extensively to other boards, but the links are there to follow for more posts than this.

Either way, the question remains as to how stacking can be incorporated into the 2 on/2 off. The effectiveness versus the risks of stacking two methyls, either on a same day or rotating basis, would need to be considered. I'm hesitant to try this myself in my upcoming cycle, given the limits of my experience, lending me to thinking I am likely better off running only one compound for my first run of 2 on/2off.
 
Totenkopf said:
.................
Either way, the question remains as to how stacking can be incorporated into the 2 on/2 off. The effectiveness versus the risks of stacking two methyls, either on a same day or rotating basis, would need to be considered. I'm hesitant to try this myself in my upcoming cycle, given the limits of my experience, lending me to thinking I am likely better off running only one compound for my first run of 2 on/2off.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the work u put into this..

i personally like 2-on/2-3-off...n 2 methyls SAME day is not a common pulse practice...not sure y u think tho on a rotating basis it would necessarily b harsher..

..what differences would u speculate might occur...methyl effect..n otherwise
between the following pulse variations:

straight SD.......straight Epi........alternating SD n Epi throughout....not necessarily a recommendation...just a simple exercise to explore one simple intro stack pulse variation ...(n maybe not the most illustrative)...vs regular pulse to examine the differences
 
Actually my dimly educated guess to the effects of rotating the methyls isn't that it would be harsher, the concern was with not seeing enough of a benefit from either of the methyls by rotating them from one day to another.
So the issue is a diminished effectiveness without a diminishing of the strain on the liver, thus making the user better off just using one methyl to get more benefits for the same liver risk.
To be honest I imagine this argument probably doesn't hold much weight, given there's probably more at play than the simple fuzzy-logic mathematical reasoning applied.

Perhaps someone would say that it would be better to just run them both at the recommended/moderate dose, or somewhat lower than that to mitigate the strain of two methyls.

I do know that in the 2 on/2 off protocol, much like with pulsing, people up the dose to the maximum effective dose (I've not seen anything higher than 30mg of Superdrol, for example).

On a side note,
I would suggest a way to calculate the amount of methylated drug that the liver is processing in the case of using two methyls. I do hope I'm not enabling any newbies (myself one of them) to do the math and then run two methyls. The HUGE fatal flaw in this consideration is the assumption that the only thing taxing the liver is the existence of the 17aa.

I've read a few ill fated posts from someone suggesting that they could run 10mg of Superdrol and 20 mg of Epistane, with the reasoning that this is the same amount of methylated compound as 30mg of Superdrol. I hope everyone recognises the flaw with this, that is that there is a different amount of the molecule per mg in both drugs. So, to see exactly how much methyl we're processing (before calculating for dimethyl), we need to convert the mg's to moles. Thankfully half the work is done for us in various chemical writeups.
So: 30mg of Superdrol, with it being dimethylated taken into consideration, amounts to 1.8868x10^-4 moles of CH3 the liver has to deal with.
And for the epi/superdrol combo that probably got the poster laughed off the board: 10mg of Superdrol is 6.2893x10^-5 moles, 20 mg of Epistane is 6.2403x10^-5, so taken together thats 1.2529x10^-4 moles of methyl. Almost as much as the 30mg of Superdrol, but we have the possibility of diminished returns with both compounds taken at half their recommended dose (my lack of experience showing again).

So I've probably managed to display both erudition and ignorance all in the same post. I am no authority on the subject, take my two cents for what they're worth. This is, after all, conjecture and mere speculation.
 
Totenkopf said:
Actually my dimly educated guess to the effects of rotating the methyls isn't that it would be harsher, the concern was with not seeing enough of a benefit from either of the methyls by rotating them from one day to another.
QUOTE]

exactly man... exactly... i have the same problem with this concept.. gotta at least have one substance kick and have some stable blood levels from it.. before u could switch to the other.. i feel like.. with this concept ud be just about to make gains.. then ud switch the compounds before u even get half the effect
Click to expand...
 
im not saying copmounds cant be stacked to make a better cycle.

thats the point of using say, a 19nor compound with something like winstrol, or plain dht. the androgenic compounds help reduce the progestinic side effects cause by the 19nor steroid, without some of the effects you'd get from say, test.

what im saying is the classification is wrong, and I have seen it challenged called what it is, something put together by a person who doesn't know much about steroids or pro hormones.

but this is off topic your thread is on stack pulsing, I just wish that misleading post wasn't in such a useful thread.
 
thanks bro..tho luckily as i posted above..n as u point out.....neither I nor the theory of STACK PULSING is married to that concept...tho I had used the class 1/2 division as one of several differentiation criteria

you r right ...tho it was posted in good faith by MK9.....both I .. n I assume many others on this board.... had uncritically accepted it on faith..not really a good policy

I appreciate your encouraging comments on this thread n hope after awhile something really good for all of us results..your keeping on on real science grounds is crucial to that happening...thanks
 
bigzach1234 said:
Totenkopf said:
Actually my dimly educated guess to the effects of rotating the methyls isn't that it would be harsher, the concern was with not seeing enough of a benefit from either of the methyls by rotating them from one day to another.
QUOTE]

exactly man... exactly... i have the same problem with this concept.. gotta at least have one substance kick and have some stable blood levels from it.. before u could switch to the other.. i feel like.. with this concept ud be just about to make gains.. then ud switch the compounds before u even get half the effect
Click to expand...

May i respectfully request u go back to the opening posts n review them..they actually address your concerns

u speak of needing "some stable blood levels" of a substance to get a kick from it...to "even get half the effect"...well that's the crux of the matter...pulse theory says even taking alternating days off between doses u still get a worthwhile anabolic bump...60-80 % ????..anyone???..but an even greater percent benefit of reduced sides shutdown n receptor sensitization n longer cycles w more preservable gains n easier PCT...all which make the trade off worthwhile...for some

No pulser claims theirs is the only way..or even insist it is the best..well maybe some do...it is simply their experienced preference

ya know a recent issue (Apr '10 Protein Power...Wilson) of IRONMAN...ok yeah IRONMAN..i read alot..on protein intake makes the point that protein synthesis is more pronounced n lasts longer when protein is taken w longer times between feedings ..."body hunger"...than the common belief of eating 6 meals a day to keep a steady state of amino acids in the blood. Such a state causes the synthesis response to becomes de-sensitized.... when such a steady state exists the body more quickly curtails muscle growth stimulation..interesting..

....possible general principle crossover applicable to our interest here??

If this patterned intermittent introduction n subsequent clearance alternation can actually have an even greater effect than steady state conditions..how interesting would that b ??

further as described in the intro posts ..this also provides an opportunity to now supply these periodic "body hungry for them" anabolic bumps w different agents ..agent stacks..that provide them in a way that an individual agent's particular sides never get a chance to manifest.
Click to expand...
 
Totenkopf said:
Actually my dimly educated guess to the effects of rotating the methyls isn't that it would be harsher, the concern was with not seeing enough of a benefit from either of the methyls by rotating them from one day to another.
So the issue is a diminished effectiveness without a diminishing of the strain on the liver, thus making the user better off just using one methyl to get more benefits for the same liver risk.
To be honest I imagine this argument probably doesn't hold much weight, given there's probably more at play than the simple fuzzy-logic mathematical reasoning applied.

Perhaps someone would say that it would be better to just run them both at the recommended/moderate dose, or somewhat lower than that to mitigate the strain of two methyls.

I do know that in the 2 on/2 off protocol, much like with pulsing, people up the dose to the maximum effective dose (I've not seen anything higher than 30mg of Superdrol, for example).

On a side note,
I would suggest a way to calculate the amount of methylated drug that the liver is processing in the case of using two methyls. I do hope I'm not enabling any newbies (myself one of them) to do the math and then run two methyls. The HUGE fatal flaw in this consideration is the assumption that the only thing taxing the liver is the existence of the 17aa.

I've read a few ill fated posts from someone suggesting that they could run 10mg of Superdrol and 20 mg of Epistane, with the reasoning that this is the same amount of methylated compound as 30mg of Superdrol. I hope everyone recognises the flaw with this, that is that there is a different amount of the molecule per mg in both drugs. So, to see exactly how much methyl we're processing (before calculating for dimethyl), we need to convert the mg's to moles. Thankfully half the work is done for us in various chemical writeups.
So: 30mg of Superdrol, with it being dimethylated taken into consideration, amounts to 1.8868x10^-4 moles of CH3 the liver has to deal with.
And for the epi/superdrol combo that probably got the poster laughed off the board: 10mg of Superdrol is 6.2893x10^-5 moles, 20 mg of Epistane is 6.2403x10^-5, so taken together thats 1.2529x10^-4 moles of methyl. Almost as much as the 30mg of Superdrol, but we have the possibility of diminished returns with both compounds taken at half their recommended dose (my lack of experience showing again).

So I've probably managed to display both erudition and ignorance all in the same post. I am no authority on the subject, take my two cents for what they're worth. This is, after all, conjecture and mere speculation.
Click to expand...

I LOVE YA MAN!!!...no seriously...i love your spirit to participate ..take a chance...conjecture...n hey...i dont know if your calculations or theory of the pharmacological kinetics of methyl molarity is correct..but i never seen it b4 n if true would be a real contribution ...anyone????

please see my response post to bigzach 1234... which addresses the concerns in the opening of your post
 
one possibility

Agents B– harsher ...&/or strength oriented: SD.....M1T....TREN

Agents A– milder: EPI....PP....M1,4ADD

* ='s a day

A * B * * A * A+ * * B * * A * A+ * * B * * A * A+ * * B * * A * A+ * * B * * A * A+ * * B * * A

+ ='s possible higher dose or 12 hr split
B's context position may allow higher dose or 12 hr split
 
soontobbeast said:
so methylated dbol ( m14add ) is milder than tren ?

dont know about that......
Click to expand...

maybe u r right..just going by my reaction n that of others i read on the boards...will concede individual differences...as i've said several times ..part of the selection criteria should be your own feedback reactions

someone somewhere here just recently i believe said his worse labs ever were after a tren cycle

also look at the dbol in the morning bridge thread...i think it started on T-Nation...kinda says dbol 10-15 mg first thing in the morning seems to interfere w endogenous test levels minimally..which also can suggest a timing means to mild/tame it down

just some thoughts...don't just go by name..other factors should b taken into account
 
Here's one report on tren strength from bigzach 1234 in response to razorback ...shows perfectly individual differences


Originally Posted by RAZORBACK09
"I love x-tren, no sides for me ever besides night sweats which is good for fat loss."

bigzach 1234:..." lucky u bro.. i get bad enough sides to make me not want to run again... although thats a lie cause i have 2 more bottles.. and im dieing to run one with epi... just done need to grow the balls to end a cycle with it...my sex drive just goes down the ****ter.. as well as my cholestrol when i run it though...also got some prog gyno from it.... but man that stuff is strong.. amazing strength gains and recomp ability...... i would run it with test.. so i hope that would help slightly with the libido loss... got blood work done after running 120mg for 6 weeks and things looked way worse then any other blood work ive ever had after aas

id say 30mg pplex w/ 90mg tren straight through for 4 weeks.. watch the prolactin sides though man.. both are known to produce problems"
 
Damn, I'm considering throwing tren into the mix of my next cycle. I can't find anything authoritative on it's half life, anyone know?
 
dbol is methylated boldenone.

m14add is a methylated pro hormone to boldenone, = pro hormone to dianabol.

common dosages of pro dbol are from 60-120mg.

tren pro hormones are pro dienolone.

common dosages of this is 90-100mg.

and I believe pro dienolone is a stronger compound than m14add.

accepted half life of for pro dienolone (tren ph) is about 6hrs.
 
GREAT INFO !!!!..didn't know tren was 6 hrs....on that basis seems good pulse fit

as i m sure u r aware it is claimed m1,4add conversion to dbol is 10-15%
 
a suggestion

For all who share this agent "consistency" concern....try the simplest of STACK PULSES...using the schedule above..

….w Epi....use tren..or..any “wet one” on your ..B.. day....high end dose &/or 12hr split

….w Phera or M 1,4 add...go w any B agent

this way u can get the sameness element reassurance u crave ...5x's in 16 days...n still get a 4 day regular break from it to dampen its sides...n do u doubt that u will get a decent “bridge” bump from the B agent during that 4 day break ???

seems comparatively effective...maybe run longer....n safer
 
conversion factors are based off of androstenediol test done in vitro, in a lab basically, and from the person who posted these findings (patrick arnold) of 15% from the diol version vs 5% conversion from a dione, the conversion rates dont have real world applicability, d/t so many factors comming in to play, like enzymes to make the conversion, and the conversion can go back and forth, multiple times, basically converting into dbol, then back into m14add, then back into dbol, ect.

the thing people need to remember is m14add is an active steroid on it's own and doesn't need to convert to have an effect. and this is where the gains are seen, not from converting into dbol. atleast, not enough to notice.
 
I wanted to pass along a cycle I will be finishing tomorrow. I have become a fan of pulsing simply because it eliminates sides for me and makes it easier for me to keep the gains. I always pulse 3 times per week on workout days (M,W,F). Up until now, I have only used one PH at a time. For this cycle, I ran M1,4ADD for 6 weeks, bridging to D-Plex week 6 and using through week 9. I have had no sides at all, and I feel that shutdown is minimal. My strength and size are up, and the D-Plex (clone of the One) has increased my vascularity. I have not stacked so far, but still have M-Drol, M1,4ADD, P-Mag, and D-Plex on hand. I like the concept of pulsed stacking, and see no reason it would not work.
 
nice not having sides to speak of...right?...n still getting solid ..lasting...gains...good to c your mind is open to the concept...let us know if u eventually try a STACK PULSE cycle..good luck
 
Qwestor,

1) You need to work on your post structure, your posts are very hard to follow.

2) Tell me, in a well formatted, properly spelled post, how the heck you are elimating shutdown with this 'THEORY'...and for that matter liver stress and lipid issues. You are still dosing oral methylated adrogens 2-4 days a week, at times recommending M1T and SD (really? M1T caused shutdown in 2 days)...pulsing only reduces sides / delays their onset...this theory of stack pulsing shows me no difference. If you have some new breaking peer reviewed science on why my androgen receptors (and HPTA) and liver wouldn't care that they are being blasted by ever changing chemicals, please share it...but without this, all you are offering is the same idea that pulsing is....you seem to be ignoring the basic principals of androgens here...and frankly...

3) Telling people in bold capital letters that 'you can do this and not risk any sides at all...' is betting the house with other people's money.

Dr.D clearly explained pulsing, clearly said it should (not would) help reduce (not elimate) side effects.

I think most of the vets are seeing this the same way I am, but Im concerned that there is going to be some noob, or some lurker, who goes off on a 8 week pulse of Epi /SD mixing in phera & M14AD when their joints hurt, and throwing some Furazadrol in when they think they are getting gyno, all along thinking the safety profile of it is equal to eating skittles.
 
With the guy that posted bloodwork... I did not see his pre bloodwork or how much epi he was taking during the pulse. He was banned immediately.

I have been using this stacked pulse since I learned about pulsing. If I remember right Dr D even said after his pulse his blood levels went from like 700 to 600. So there will be some shutdown, but minimal. I make sure I run a low dosed AI on off days to keep the test up. I do notice that over time my libido goes down and I have to come off the pulse. M1T. I tried pulsing that at 10mg x 3day/week. 2wks of that and I quit cause it seemed to tank my libido. Took longer to get a libido back from it too. I did see gains from it though. I remember blood tests stating it could put your test at 13 after only 4 days at 20mg. I have no bloodwork to show anything but occasionally I do bloodwork and it's always been good.
I'll stack a pulse just like I do a regular cycle. methyl with a non methyl. I also switch up methyls depending on my goals. Sometimes I want to bulk (m1,4)sometimes I want to lean up(epi) sometimes I want a libido boost(phera). I'll stack dht types with it. sometimes 2 methyls. I think I've read some methyls are milder than others. This is my favorite cycle so far. Slow easy gains I can keep with minimal shutdown. I will agree that stacking will create more sides than pulsing a single compound, but less than a full cycle. Stack pulsing is something you need to do your homework on.
 
I agree - works for me as well. There is no question that when I did a straight cycle of Epi (my first use of a PH), I shut down hard. When I pulse M-Drol or M1,4ADD, my shut down and sides are minimal (not eliminated). Everyone is different, but I'll stick with pulsing.
 
[/QUOTE]
I think most of the vets are seeing this the same way I am, but Im concerned that there is going to be some noob, or some lurker, who goes off on a 8 week pulse of Epi /SD mixing in phera & M14AD when their joints hurt, and throwing some Furazadrol in when they think they are getting gyno, all along thinking the safety profile of it is equal to eating skittles.[/QUOTE]

My Furaguno looks kind of like Skittles. lol
 
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL...VET

Skigazzi said:
Qwestor,

1) You need to work on your post structure, your posts are very hard to follow.

2) Tell me, in a well formatted, properly spelled post, how the heck you are elimating shutdown with this 'THEORY'...and for that matter liver stress and lipid issues. You are still dosing oral methylated adrogens 2-4 days a week, at times recommending M1T and SD (really? M1T caused shutdown in 2 days)...pulsing only reduces sides / delays their onset...this theory of stack pulsing shows me no difference. If you have some new breaking peer reviewed science on why my androgen receptors (and HPTA) and liver wouldn't care that they are being blasted by ever changing chemicals, please share it...but without this, all you are offering is the same idea that pulsing is....you seem to be ignoring the basic principals of androgens here...and frankly...

3) Telling people in bold capital letters that 'you can do this and not risk any sides at all...' is betting the house with other people's money.

Dr.D clearly explained pulsing, clearly said it should (not would) help reduce (not elimate) side effects.

I think most of the vets are seeing this the same way I am, but Im concerned that there is going to be some noob, or some lurker, who goes off on a 8 week pulse of Epi /SD mixing in phera & M14AD when their joints hurt, and throwing some Furazadrol in when they think they are getting gyno, all along thinking the safety profile of it is equal to eating skittles.
Click to expand...

I was going to answer your post seriously point by point...but then realized either they have all been addressed ..sometimes more than once..in my previous posts..n u r either deliberately misreading or misrepresenting what I presented. I m sorry if u cannot or will not have the interest to read n properly understand what was written.

Your tone is immediately apparent as critical condemning censuring ... even as u misrepresent what I have suggested..for whatever personal reasons u have …n proceed to attack your own straw men fabrications n assign them to me ..

…..u r really only criticizing your own misshapen misunderstanding..congratulations!!!

oh..n LIL Miss Grammar Girl ….i m out of grade school..n u little command/demand temper tantrum on how I post...maybe that act works in your little world..don't try it w the big boys...somebody might just...“teach u a lesson”...u need work on your manners ..

never said M1T 2 days in a row..in fact B day has a 2 day cushion on each side

as far as theory...again read above...

.....peer reviewed journals..OK show me peer reviewed controlled experiment pro-hormone cycles studies w on cycle support n various pct regimens... anything on the order used in these boards..r u kidding....n genius since your so enamored w peer review journals...read the expose last year of those prestigious journals like NEJM...n the behind the scenes influence that money brought to those published studies...so what else is new...

….this board “borrows” related knowledge from science n then proceeds on their own to try to apply it n thru a string of self reported experiences to build a library of anecdotal events to share w others..the best we can do..under the circumstances

hey bright-lite...do u know what a headline is..oh yeah I forgot..as u demonstrate ..that's all u read...most people read further n actually grasp the message..try it sometime

your concern for noobs n lurkers is touching..tho I doubt any could misread things as badly as you do... u r the one actually doing them a dis-service by trying to think for them ...mistakenly...n wildly distorting ..w your skittles crap...what was suggested written recommended or claimed for STACK PULSING...good work..vet..i worry more about the ..boobs n jerkers..know what I mean

next time u need to mouth off for your own sake n put the world in order..sit down n write your good points..n if u can find the time...your bad points....then correct it w a big red marker....n burn it w the rest of the rubbish...then u can see your name in lights w.o. bothering the rest of us..

….but hey don't give up ...at least you have one other clown here who finds u funny:

:bryce:
 
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