Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

1-Carboxy and GABA

GoHardOrGoHme said:
Let me quote this from a long term study using Mucuna in the treatment of parkinson's

"Oral administration of Mucuna pruriens endocarp in the form of HP-200 had a significant effect on dopamine content in the cortex with no significant effect on levodopa, norepinephrine or dopamine, serotonin, and their metabolites- HVA, DOPAC and 5-HIAA in the nigrostriatal tract. The failure of Mucuna pruriens endocarp to significantly affect dopamine metabolism in the striatonigral tract along with its ability to improve Parkinsonian symptoms in the 6-hydorxydopamine animal model and humans may suggest that its antiparkinson effect may be due to components other than levodopa or that it has an levodopa enhancing effect."

Effect of antiparkinson drug HP-200 (Mucuna pruriens) on the central monoaminergic neurotransmitters
Bala V. Manyam 1 *, Muralikrishnan Dhanasekaran 1, Theodore A. Hare 2


So tell me how are you going to develop a tolerance to L-Dopa therapy if it doesnt increase the concentration of L-Dopa in the area you are concerned with developing a tolerance to?

YES L-DOPA CAN CAUSE TOLERANCE WHEN HABITUALLY SUPPLEMENTED IN A L-DOPA THERAPY FOR THE TREATMENT OF PARKINSON'S <- put in caps so you understand that i know this(not because im mad)

But it seems like your fears of tolerance to L-Dopa therapy (which is targeting the nigrostriatal pathway) is more based on fear then on meticulous knowledge of the subject. It is abundantly clear you know a lot of information on how L-Dopa interacts with the substantia nigra and hardcore supplementation can cause tolerance, but if mucuna supplementation does not increase endogenous concentrations...wouldnt you agree it is highly highly improbably for it to cause a tolerance to future treatment which is directed to that are?
Click to expand...
The thing I am not getting here is you differentiating MP with L-Dopa, when they are the same thing.
 
u can derive L-Dopa from the MP. The conversion is something like 250 mg for every 7.5 grams of powder. So yes i understand the L-Dopa is found within the velvet bean/cowhage extracts.

But what seems to escape you is that the L-Dopa found within these plants are not effecting once nigrostriatal pathway. There is more then L-Dopa in these extracts, but you are focusing on the word L-Dopa.

Also when L-Dopa in its purest form is administed orally only about 1% makes it through to the blood bain barrier. Meaning you need massive doses over a long duration of the the good **** to grow a tolerance. And Strategic also mentioned all the care that must be put into ensuring even that 1% will make it to the nigrostriatal pathway to be an effective means of therapy. So once you have a herbal supplement that has been extracted for 25-50% L-Dopa...well you do the math on how much of that will make it through the BBB...and then on top of that the chances of it raising the L-Dopa concentration of the nigrostriatal pathway in order to develop a tolerance...

But remember according to previous research long term use of MP does not cause tolerance of L-Dopa within the Nigrostriatal pathway b/c it does not affects its endogenous concentration....

Long winded i know but am i making more sense to you?
 
Ldopa and MP ldopa appear to be different in Parkinson's studies. MP stays in the system longer and gives better results. Its not clear why but the general feeling is that MP ldopa is better. It could have natural dopamine inhibitors in it - who knows.

Basically taking PowerFull is better than taking pure L-dopa. What UPSlabs said here was that only a bit of ldopa gets through to the brain the rest is lost. I thought that with pure ldopa it all got lost.

I've had this discussion with USP several times and there is something different about 1-carboxy and that it is considerably superior to neat l-dopa. Exactly what I don't know.

Tolerence 8 weeks on 12 off is exactly what I'm doing.

The thing is you can say exactly the same about B6 supplements - they increase dopamine production and that is somehow linked to HGH release.
 
Pure L-Dopa in conjuction with therapy, it will cross the blood brain barrier but understand its not an easy process.

As it has been stated previously 1-carboxy is not L-Dopa but a derivative of L-Dopa extacted from herbs that allows it to be safer and more effective then shooting up straight L-Dopa. Getting all the benefits with no side effects.

Matthias is cycling properly in order to maximize his chance of not acquiring any neg sides and def not acquiring a tolerance...

USPLabs = King of Herbal Extracts.....this is a fact i am coming to realize, truly an impressive company....but if there are holes I'll find them!!! So you are on watch USP!! mauahahaha
 
what?
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
what?
Click to expand...

Awakenings (1990)Directed by Penny Marshall. With Robert De Niro, Robin Williams,

A new doctor finds himself with a ward full of comatose patients. He is disturbed by them and the fact that they have been comatose for decades with no hope of any cure. When he finds a possible chemical cure (L-Dopa) he gets permission to try it on one of them. When the first patient awakes, he is now an adult having gone into a coma in his early teens. The film then delights in the new awareness of the patients and then on the reactions of their relatives to the changes in the newly awakened. Written by John Vogel

In the end the patients revert back into a ward full of comatose patients no matter how high a dosage they are given, kinda sad. The movie also mentions the connection between parkensons
 
We are talking about l-dopa (l-dihydroxyphenylalanine) not levodopa which is referred to l-dopa somtimes... just incase some one got them mixed up... and l-dopa from MP does not cross the blood brain barrier... most things that increase dopamine levels dont cross the blood brain barrier...which is why we can supplement with MP without having a huge amount of side effects... if it did cross the blood brain barrier (MP) then those who do not need l-dopa would see a huge amount of side effects... but we dont so its safe...
 
never saw that movie...sounds interestign though



JaredGalloway said:
We are talking about l-dopa (l-dihydroxyphenylalanine) not levodopa which is referred to l-dopa somtimes... just incase some one got them mixed up... and l-dopa from MP does not cross the blood brain barrier... most things that increase dopamine levels dont cross the blood brain barrier...which is why we can supplement with MP without having a huge amount of side effects... if it did cross the blood brain barrier (MP) then those who do not need l-dopa would see a huge amount of side effects... but we dont so its safe...
Click to expand...


That is a good point i dont think we ever adressed...good call
 
Um....no...send it to me i will properly dispose of it for you
 
MP extracts does not cause an increase in DA concentrations within the nigro-striatal pathways, see previous posts

MP therapy and L-Dopa therapy and MP extract supplementation are in different balls parks
 
godsfshrmn said:
Any type of L-DOPA (most of it anyways) would be decarboxylated in the periphery since you are probably not prescribed carbidopa. L-Dopa and carbidopa are prescribed together to increase drug availability.

l-dihydroxyphenylalanine and levodopa are actually quite similar, the first being a component of the second. I honestly wouldn't risk it. The use of L-dopa in Parkinson's is well studied. The effectiveness of the drug is only 3-5 years, not due to tolerance but because its activity causes death of nigral cells via increased oxidative load (search Un Jung Kang on pubmed, several well known studies), which are responsible for the conversion of the drug into DA. The worst part about Parkinson's is onset of symptoms do not begin until you have had > 50% cell loss. If this drug is able to cross the BBB, you will be doing damage you don't know about until later down the road. I would rather work out an extra two weeks to see the same gain than to start killing my DA production
Click to expand...

Yes they are similar but how many chemicals do we know that are similar to something else but have TOTALLY differrent effects... So what im saying is yes they are similar but they are NOT the same thing... Again the l-dopa which u are referring to is levodopa (a parkinsons treatment) not naturally derived l-dopa...because naturally derived l-dopa does not cross the BBB if it did parkinsons patients would be prescribed MP but there not...
 
Actually they have already conducted studies with using MP on parkinsons patients, but they concluded that it works by some other means rather then affecting dopamine concentrations within the substantia nigra.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Actually they have already conducted studies with using MP on parkinsons patients, but they concluded that it works by some other means rather then affecting dopamine concentrations within the substantia nigra.
Click to expand...

Interesting... but like i said they do not prescribe MP to parkinsons patients... they still prescribe a combination of levodopa and some other medications depending on the severity of the parkinsons...
 
JaredGalloway said:
We are talking about l-dopa (l-dihydroxyphenylalanine) not levodopa which is referred to l-dopa somtimes... just incase some one got them mixed up... and l-dopa from MP does not cross the blood brain barrier... most things that increase dopamine levels dont cross the blood brain barrier...which is why we can supplement with MP without having a huge amount of side effects... if it did cross the blood brain barrier (MP) then those who do not need l-dopa would see a huge amount of side effects... but we dont so its safe...
Click to expand...

According to USP' powerfull write up their product does cross the bbb. Can someone explain please.


At USP Labs we knew if we could come up with a bioavailable form of L-Dopa that had the ability to cross the blood/brain barrier it would help bodybuilders everywhere increase natural HGH release, natural Testosterone production, drive sex drive through the roof, build muscle, lose body fat and sleep like a rock.

Well, you will be glad when you hear we have succeeded! But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use!
 
i think i will leave that for strategic to answer since he can offer a far more intricate and accurate explanation then myself
 
good point Iron....

Check previously in this thread

Before asking questions, understand so much has already been explained so i know its alot to sift through but you can find a majority of answers already posted.
 
strategicmove said:
Now to your Neurophysiologist. I hope she is aware that only a small fraction of the levodopa or L-Dopa taken orally ever reaches the brain, as blood enzymes such as amino acid decarboxylases (AADCs) metabolize most of the levodopa before it reaches the brain, unless it is taken with appropriate dopamine agonists, enzyme inhibitors or transport vehicles such as carbidopa that inhibit L-Dopa decarboxylation in the bloodstream or in tissues outside the brain, ensuring an increase in the amount of L-dopa that finally reaches the brain for enzymatic conversion to dopamine. Without these co-factors, only a fraction of the consumed levodopa ever survives decarboxylation. Besides, she should also know that dopamine has other important functions in the body besides the transmission of signals from the substantia nigra to the corpus striatum and enabling coordinated movement.

Just to be clear, I do not advocate the reckless use of L-DOPA or dopamine agonists. Dopamine has its place in bodybuilding, if used in a responsible fashion. Same applies to most of the compounds bodybuilders and health enthusiasts use.
Click to expand...

The product description says it passes the bbb, but your quote says otherwise. What am I missing?
 
bigmoe65 said:
The product description says it passes the bbb, but your quote says otherwise. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Hence my arguments in the first place... so many conflicting arguments, and so many unknowns. Yet people still intend on playing with neurotransmitters.

Amazing.
 
bigmoe65 said:
According to USP' powerfull write up their product does cross the bbb. Can someone explain please.


At USP Labs we knew if we could come up with a bioavailable form of L-Dopa that had the ability to cross the blood/brain barrier it would help bodybuilders everywhere increase natural HGH release, natural Testosterone production, drive sex drive through the roof, build muscle, lose body fat and sleep like a rock.

Well, you will be glad when you hear we have succeeded! But, we totally skipped the L-Dopa part and discovered a brand new compound that’s closely related and is readily available for the body to use!
Click to expand...

As already indicated, L-DOPA has notorious difficulty to cross the blood-brain barrier. To illustrate, for every 100mg of orally administered L-DOPA, only about 1mg - 3mg ever cross(es) the blood brain barrier, with the rest being metabolized in extra-cerebral cells to dopamine via decarboxylation, if the L-DOPA is not simultaneously administered alongside dopamine agonists, dopa decarboxylase inhibitors, monoamine oxidase B inhibitors, catechol-o-methyltransferase (COMT) inhibitors, acetylcholine blockers, or neuroprotective agents. As it turns out, both PowerFULL and Bulk 1-carboxy contain a compound that serves to inhibit L-DOPA degradation in extra-cerebral cells, promotes its passage through the blood brain barrier, and stimulates the synthesis of dopamine in the brain.
 
bigmoe65 said:
The product description says it passes the bbb, but your quote says otherwise. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

My quote does not say L-DOPA does not cross the blood brain barrier! My quote says only a small fraction does, if L-DOPA is taken solo! Here is the relevant part of the quote once more:
strategicmove said:
....only a small fraction of the levodopa or L-Dopa taken orally ever reaches the brain, as blood enzymes such as amino acid decarboxylases (AADCs) metabolize most of the levodopa before it reaches the brain, unless it is taken with appropriate dopamine agonists, enzyme inhibitors or transport vehicles such as carbidopa that inhibit L-Dopa decarboxylation in the bloodstream or in tissues outside the brain, ensuring an increase in the amount of L-dopa that finally reaches the brain for enzymatic conversion to dopamine. Without these co-factors, only a fraction of the consumed levodopa ever survives decarboxylation.....
Click to expand...
 
DAdams91982 said:
Hence my arguments in the first place... so many conflicting arguments, and so many unknowns. Yet people still intend on playing with neurotransmitters.

Amazing.
Click to expand...

I am not sure where you see conflicting arguments and unknowns! Talking about manipulating neurotransmitters, let us look at one particular neurotransmitter, serotonin. It is well known that serotonin is an intermediate result in the synthesis of melatonin from L-tryptophan. The sequence is roughly as follows (for those who care): L-Tryptophan is metabolized into 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) via the enzymatic action of tryptophan hydroxylase. 5-HTP is enzymatically converted to Serotonin by aromatic-l-amino-acid decarboxylase. In the pineal gland, serotonin is acetylated via serotonin-n-acetyltransferase to N-acetylserotonin, the rate-limiting step in melatonin synthesis. Finally, N-acetylserotonin is methylated by hydroxyindole-O-methyltransferase to melatonin. Why do I bother to state all this? Simple! Based on your logic and on your comment, people should stop using supplements that stimulate the neurotransmitter serotonin, and utlimately enhance the synthesis of melatonin. They should also avoid free-form amino acids such as L-tryptophan and L-Tyrosine from which neurotransmitters are synthesized, not to mention the use of agents such as GABA, L-Theanine, and so on! My point is simply that blanket comments like yours are neither meaningful nor helpful!
 
strategicmove said:
I am not sure where you see conflicting arguments and unknowns! Talking about manipulating neurotransmitters, let us look at one particular neurotransmitter, serotonin. It is well known that serotonin is an intermediate result in the synthesis of melatonin from L-tryptophan. The sequence is roughly as follows (for those who care): L-Tryptophan is metabolized into 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) via the enzymatic action of tryptophan hydroxylase. 5-HTP is enzymatically converted to Serotonin by aromatic-l-amino-acid decarboxylase. In the pineal gland, serotonin is acetylated via serotonin-n-acetyltransferase to N-acetylserotonin, the rate-limiting step in melatonin synthesis. Finally, N-acetylserotonin is methylated by hydroxyindole-O-methyltransferase to melatonin. Why do I bother to state all this? Simple! Based on your logic and on your comment, people should stop using supplements that stimulate the neurotransmitter serotonin, and utlimately enhance the synthesis of melatonin. They should also avoid free-form amino acids such as L-tryptophan and L-Tyrosine from which neurotransmitters are synthesized, not to mention the use of agents such as GABA, L-Theanine, and so on! My point is simply that blanket comments like yours are neither meaningful nor helpful!
Click to expand...

Your post talked nothing to the issue at hand, and did less to help your case in point. I will leave you to yourself, and your belief that everything within said compounds is nothing but rainbows and sunshine. Painting any compound at all in only shining light is the most annoying, pandering, and valiantly untruthful thing I see here on this board.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Your post talked nothing to the issue at hand, and did less to help your case in point. I will leave you to yourself, and your belief that everything within said compounds is nothing but rainbows and sunshine. Painting any compound at all in only shining light is the most annoying, pandering, and valiantly untruthful thing I see here on this board.
Click to expand...
If you did not understand my post, then you did not understand the quintessence of your own penultimate post! It is remarkable that one of the products you should be very familiar with (given your status here) actually contains a couple of compounds that manipulate (two) neurotransmitters! Via your comment on "playing with neurotransmitters", you essentially extinguished any sparks that might have been left in your arguments!
 
strategicmove said:
If you did not understand my post, then you did not understand the quintessence of your own penultimate post! It is remarkable that one of the products you should be very familiar with (given your status here) actually contains a couple of compounds that manipulate (two) neurotransmitters! Via your comment on "playing with neurotransmitters", you essentially extinguished any sparks that might have been left in your arguments!
Click to expand...

Ha... your candor is incongruous with your natural demeanor stratosphere. I will leave this thread for you to pander your audience.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Ha... your candor is incongruous with your natural demeanor stratosphere. I will leave this thread for you to pander your audience.
Click to expand...

The feeling is mutual!
 
JaredGalloway said:
Wow u are ignorant... he thoroughly explained the issue... we are all here to learn... atleast i am...
Click to expand...

Dude.. pull your panties out. The explanations and write ups and studies ALL do not add up. For God sakes, do some research and you will see that... the words here at AM are not Gospel.

This is mind numbing now. Unsubbed. You all enjoy!
 
AnabolicMinds are free minds. :)
 
DAdams91982 said:
Ha... your candor is incongruous with your natural demeanor stratosphere. I will leave this thread for you to pander your audience.
Click to expand...


.....my vocabulary may be slightly to simple to understand this sentence...i read it as


your rants (candor implying honest and open or talk) is not in line with your natural state of being, highest level of the atmosphere


I think i understand what he was trying to say but i dont believe he used the right words to explain it. If stratosphere was a cheap shot at strategic making fun of his name b/c strategic's post have a air of confidence then that post was slightly childish.

In fairness im going to re-evaluate this thread to see if DAdams argument holds water. I want to see if the questions were properly answered and if not I will rephrase the questions to allow them to be properly identified.

There is no reason to get mad, or unsubb a thread just b.c ppl dont agree with you. It is fair to agree to disagree dispite whatever information is presented. Who knows, maybe in 20 years what is fact today is fiction tomorrow, so this may be a very differnt thread in 20 years.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Dude.. pull your panties out. The explanations and write ups and studies ALL do not add up. For God sakes, do some research and you will see that... the words here at AM are not Gospel.

This is mind numbing now. Unsubbed. You all enjoy!
Click to expand...

im sorry to say but u must be reading something that i am not... show me where it does not add up... if u can prove what ur saying then ill shut up and go away...
 
If it crosses the BBB doesnt mean it can be found in enough concetration in any one area of the brain that will inflict any sort of damage.

Refer to my posted article on the concentrations of L-Dopa concentrations due to mucuna supplementations that where extracted for L-Dopa.


Now if someone can present me sound research that conflicts or negates the research i have posted that would be a nice change from just blind fear. But for those who are being cautious in playing with these supplemens i commend you for you skepticism and implore you to continue to research in order to add sound scientific information.

But up until this point all contrary arguments have been answered with a scientifically supported answer. Anyone can disagree with this....but please let it be known it is your personal opinion, not scientific fact.
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
If it crosses the BBB doesnt mean it can be found in enough concetration in any one area of the brain that will inflict any sort of damage.

Refer to my posted article on the concentrations of L-Dopa concentrations due to mucuna supplementations that where extracted for L-Dopa.


Now if someone can present me sound research that conflicts or negates the research i have posted that would be a nice change from just blind fear. But for those who are being cautious in playing with these supplemens i commend you for you skepticism and implore you to continue to research in order to add sound scientific information.

But up until this point all contrary arguments have been answered with a scientifically supported answer. Anyone can disagree with this....but please let it be known it is your personal opinion, not scientific fact.
Click to expand...

I will ask the same question that I have asked in other threads. Can you please provide me with the chemical structure of MP L-Dopa and and show me the difference that entices only the positives as opposed to synthetic. Pretty much a side by side molecule of MP L-Dopa vs. Synthetic will suffice.
 
Current medical research indicates although supposedly similar in structure, effects on the CNS are different.

So they dont know what makes them different but current research indicates something about these two chemicals cause different effects. The L-Dopa derived from mucuna seems to be vastly more benefical then pure synthetic Dopa.

Sorry to not give you the actual chemical difference but what I can give you is the research supporting that one is far safer then the other.
 
And something that you can use to put your question into context is that molecular formular doesnt always dictate toxicity. For example O2 in high enough concentrations(lets say 100%) can cause oxygen toxicity. Now as you know we survive off of O2 but we breathe in a relatively dilute amount (20% of what we breathe in). So maybe its the the fact that through MP we dont take in 100% L-Dopa(as one would through synthetic L-Dopa) in addition to the alkaloids flavonoids already present in the plant.

Now what you should be asking is what about MP supplementation is causing these positive side effects?

The MP supplements are extracted to have a relatively higher content of L-Dopa but they still contain several other alkaloids and flavonoids that can interact with the L-Dopa and cause these poitive side effects? I mean the possibilities are endless, but i dont think you can argue the fact that there is a significant amount of evidence supporting the positive attributes of MP supplementation.

Now if you can provide several studies showing the MP supplementation is negative to ones health please dont be so greedy and share the wealth.


Here i will provide a link to a warning with MP supplementation and who should not or be cautious in taking it:
Invalid Link Removed
 
We are re-tracing the same loops over and over in this thread. Opinions are fixed and immoveable, regardless of the opposing arguments. Reminds me a lot about the Agmatine thread: Invalid Link Removed at a phase in its evolution.
 
strategicmove said:
We are re-tracing the same loops over and over in this thread. Opinions are fixed and immoveable, regardless of the opposing arguments. Reminds me a lot about the Agmatine thread: Invalid Link Removed at a phase in its evolution.
Click to expand...

Ike, Great addition to the thread! Gold star for you!

GoHard, my information comes from the knowns of L-Dopa. Maybe the companies are not providing the L-Dopa extract they advertise (Which Dr. Shehalin (sp?) claims) so it the subject doesnt gain any effect because of such a miniscule dose. But you cannot refute that you can apply L-Dopa research to L-Dopa, synthetic or natural it is the same molecule, just like testosterone.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Please, I have only read one better than thou snide Strat comment today.
Click to expand...

Interprete it however you wish. I simply do not want to get into any exchanges of any type with you. That simple. And this response is the last.
 
DAdams91982 said:
Ike, Great addition to the thread! Gold star for you!

GoHard, my information comes from the knowns of L-Dopa. Maybe the companies are not providing the L-Dopa extract they advertise (Which Dr. Shehalin (sp?) claims) so it the subject doesnt gain any effect because of such a miniscule dose. But you cannot refute that you can apply L-Dopa research to L-Dopa, synthetic or natural it is the same molecule, just like testosterone.
Click to expand...


Without having seen any research or history on mucuna your reasoning would be sound. And being that it's based on caution, I cannot in any way cast a stone....I am very cautious with my supplementation researching anywhere from 3 days to 3 weeks on specific ingredients and their synergy berfore taking any product.

But concerning your reasoning compared to research i would have to say that ppl have lived on the velvet bean for centuries intaking this "natural" L-Dopa dietarily in large doses. Lets say a bean contains 3% L-dopa...so 1 gram of beans would have taken in .01 grams. For if they eat 100 grams of beans a day(which is not out of the ordinary) the take in a gram a day 7 days a week. Those with larger appetites or more wealthy can take in more then a gram and would start approaching levels ppl supplement with supps like Powerfull...HGH Up....or IGF-2. Tribes and cities who use this as a food crop do not show any increase occurence of cognitive decline....if my memory serves me correctly they show less then the statistical average.

And being that there is research that compares synthetic, lab made L-Dopa to extracted L-Dopa from mucuna there is no reason to apply research of one to another. Why? B/c the several studies done comparing them shows there effects and safety levels to be different. Then they have conducted and are continuing to conduct extensive L-Dopa as a vastly safer alternative to synthetic L-Dopa. And the alkaloids and flavonoids from these extractions are proving to be neuroprotective, antidiabetic...etc.

And the end result of the L-Dopa is to convert to Dopamine then to raise GH levels. Its like natural test boosters that work via raising LH or increase free test by binding to SHBG.



phew my posts are getting progressively longer haha. But Adams im not trying to change your mind, you can never use any GH releaser your entire life and i wouldnt think any less of you. Heck, i respect you for havign a firm belief and standing by it, shows a certain amount of character, so kudos.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top