Nail down cortisol and blast GH & testosterone through the roof with EndoAmp Max
- Thread starter Eric Potratz
- Start date
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
If you are talking about (PA) Patrick Arnold then no his opinion is not well respected and yes, he does have reason to skew the truth. He is a competitor who thrives off debate and tearing things down… and personally, I think he has a man crush on me >
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Besides, he is wrong. Alpha-GPC does have a proven effect on GH levels, and it shows a benefit after a single oral dose in the studies I posted. And improving the cortisol:testosterone ratio will reduce muscle soreness, improve recovery and ultimately allow you to make gains faster in the gym.
-Eric
steveironman
Banned
Show me proof ? Show me labwork ? Explain the mechanism of action as to how this slight increase in test and slight lowering or cortisol will make one damn bit of difference ....SHOW me? NOT BS studies ....show me real world applicable studies that suit our purposes. Real levels (not trumped up numbers that are meaningless..just to show a constatnt wtf is that?) ...that make a difference ...Not trumped up logs and BS biased claims by those with vested interests ...you know the mods here *L* Fact is you cant..if you could you would..but you cant....bottom line....
What you can do its try to take this study and that study and infer that it means this product will work when the fact is control groups parameters ...etc are so diff it is meaningless...... and the product IMO is worthless....
Trauma1
Legend
I love the indirect sarcasm, yet i'm the one with insults, right?
So - what are these supposed "letters" after your name? If your demonstrated english skills are any indication of you education level, this should be pretty entertaining. :usa1:This is freakin' priceless!
In all seriousness, you're one delusional individual. :wave2:
steveironman
Banned
Surely you arent saying PA is not respected? I mean seriously ? Your product has no real world applicable to these circumstances data to support one of its claims. Not commissioned studies.....not trials...no vs/ placebo ..none of it. And data everywhere that suggests such minimal increase in test and decrease in cortisol will do NOTHING. Not to mention the input of one of the most intelligent scientific minds ever in the supp industry saying it wont do anything. ..yet you persist...you have to persist - i know it....its your product...but the facts are...it wont do damn thing.... Im sorry....
steveironman
Banned
I love the indirect sarcasm, yet i'm the one with insults, right? I ASK LEGIT QUESTIONS....IF YOU INRTERPRTET SARCASM PERHAPS ITS BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT OR WILL NOT ANSWER THEM ...YOU ON THE OTHER HAND...JUST RESORT TO INSULTS...NICE..SAYS A LOT IN MY OPINION ..ABOUT YOU ..AND YOUR PRODUCT
Oh my more insults....so whatever you awnt ..the facts are as i stated...im refraining from insulting someone in your profession at the moment re: scientific knowledge...you see i will not stoop to your level :usa1:
This is freakin' priceless!
In all seriousness, you're one delusional individual. :wave2:
Yeah but how about answering the questions? *L*
Trauma1
Legend
This just speaks for itself...
We're done here, steve. I'm not going to engage in this nonesense any longer. I'm here to help deliver product information, as well as offer my own advice/experiences/knowledge here on AM in an effort to help and assist those that need it. I'm really not sure why you're here based on your erratic and negative discourse. Having an difference of opinion or refuting a given statement is one thing, but you've taken this to a level not conducive with any educational purpose.
I wish you the best.
steveironman
Banned
^^huh thats what i thought...cant answer them. Oh well ...hope people see this product for what it really is....useless ... i asked legitimate questions...question you KNOW you cant answer.....questions that would show your product to be what it is ...bogus.....i rest my case....
Trauma1
Legend
Only 3 more days to take part in our Invalid Link Removed
sale, gentlemen! Make sure to use the coupon code: MAXRECOVERY when purchasing to get it for only $86.95.
EndoAmp Max is part of this stack, so it's never been a better time to try it! If you have any questions, i'm here to assist.
sale, gentlemen! Make sure to use the coupon code: MAXRECOVERY when purchasing to get it for only $86.95.
EndoAmp Max is part of this stack, so it's never been a better time to try it! If you have any questions, i'm here to assist.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Proof? Labwork?
Sure, I’ll show you again… right out of the human studies that have been peer reviewed and published in the nationally accredited Journal’s of Sports Exercise and Nutrition.
“As S-PS supplementation increased the AUC for testosterone and decreased the AUC for cortisol, supplementation caused a significant positive impact on the T/C ratio of the participants. A reduction in the T/C ratio has been reported to indicate a state of overtraining or negative state, whereas an elevation in the T/C ratio appears to indicate a more positive state [7,25].”
7. Fry AC, Kraemer WJ. Resistance exercise overtraining and overreaching neuroendocrine responses. Sports Med.1997;23:106–129.
25 .Häkkinen K, Keskinen KL, Alen M, Komi PV, Kauhanen H. Serum hormone concentrations during prolonged training in elite endurance-trained and strength-trained athletes. Eur J Appl Physiol. 1989;59:233–238. doi: 10.1007/BF02386193.
And further…
“The S-PS phase had cortisol AUC levels that were significantly lower than the placebo phase. Consequently, S-PS supplementation gave rise to what could be considered a positive physiological state [15]. The results of this study suggest that 600 mg/d of S-PS might have the potential to avert an overtrained state.”
15. Hellhammer J, Fries E, Buss C, Engert V, Tuch A, Rutenberg D, Hellhammer D. Effects of soy lecithin phosphatidic acid and phosphatidylserine complex (PAS) on the endocrine and psychological responses to mental stress.Stress. 2004;7:119–126.
And more studies that have found benefits…
PS/A-GPC improves exercise capacity and power -
Effects of phosphatidylserine on exercise capacity during cycling in active males.
Kingsley et al.
Med Sci Sports Exerc 2006, 38(I):64-71
Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to and peak force production during resistance exercise
Ziegenfuss et al.
J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jun 2008 5(Suppl 1): P15
PS reduces muscle soreness -
The hormonal and perceptive effects of phosphatidylserine administration during two weeks of weight training-induced over-training.
Fayey TD, et al.
Biol Sport 1998, 15(2): 135-144
The effects of phosphatidyl serine on markers of muscular stress in endurance runners.
Fernholz et al.
Med Sci Sports Exerc 2000, 32(5):S321
PS improves mental performance -
The influence of phosphatidylserine supplementation on mood and heart rate when faced with an acute stressor.
Benton D et al.
Nutr Neurosci 2001, 4(3):169-178
The effect of phosphatidylserine on golf performance.
Ralf Jager et al.
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007; 4:23
Need more?
steveironman
Banned
Only 3 more days to take part in our Invalid Link Removed
sale, gentlemen! Make sure to use the coupon code: MAXRECOVERY when purchasing to get it for only $86.95.
EndoAmp Max is part of this stack, so it's never been a better time to try it! If you have any questions, i'm here to assist.
^^^ yeah but just ask questions like how much should i take etc..because if you ask REAL questions re the product the science and supposed facts supporting it - you will get no response *L*
steveironman
Banned
^^^ *L* more zigenfuss BS (already stated whos pocket he's in ) - of course here we go with the bogus non applicable studies : potentially if we over train ...or are marathon runners of all things , or golfers . How about comparison on muscle recovery to those that didnt supplement with it..not studies that state potentially it may help. Why dont you commission studies ? Serious honest studies..that show true levels of test increase and cortisol decrease (god knows why you want to mess with that imo anyway) and then compare to control group then actually show a benefit..not take non specific general studies..that do NOT directly apply ...distort them ...counting on people buying into them because they either want too or cannot correctly interpret them ... and misrepresent these claims u make as factual ...its BS..it wrong .....its a legal scam....and you should be ashamed.....
PS oh then lets factor in some of the best minds in the industry saying it would be useless..... i mean surely he doesnt wan tto make people in the industry look like a total sham? right? i mean that wouldnt be smart.... The reason he has lost some repect from manufacturers etc..is because he speks the truth..jujst like in this case...and it hurtsa their sales of their rip off products
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Could I take extra alpha GPC in the morning. I have bulk alpha GPC comming in the mail than post workout take endoamp than have my post workout shake 15 minutes later.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
You asked for real, serious honest studies with human athletes… and that’s exactly what I’ve given you. Nothing was distorted. All of them where done with control groups. All of them showed clearly documented benefits.
You are accusing a medical journal and its researchers of being paid off to publish false information. Do you have any evidence to support this conspiracy theory?
BTW, I could say a lot of things about PA, but I’m going to hold my tongue on that. The guy isn’t even here to defend himself.
-Eric
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
I did that once with my peptides and made my hand swollen. I think the effect of the alpha gpc amplified the effects of my peptides. Do you know any thing about that? ALso I am taking soy lecthine morning and night.
steveironman
Banned
Yawn - i reiterate...why would you mess with this hormone?
Cortisol is very important for keeping humans alive. Cortisol is responsible for maintaining our ability to process sugars, maintain our blood pressure and react to stress and illness. Cortisol helps the body respond to stress. During times of stress, cortisol levels
increase and accelerate the breakdown of proteins to provide the fuel to maintain body functions. It acts as a physiological antagonist to insulin by promoting breakdown of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins and so mobilizing energy reserves. In addition, immune and inflammatory cells have their responses to stress attenuated by cortisol. Cortisol is known to stimulate gluconeogenesis (creation of glucose) to ensure an adequate fuel supply. It also makes fatty acids available for metabolic use. It increases mobilization of free fatty acids, making them a more available energy source, and decreases glucose utilization, sparing it for the brain. Cortisol also acts as an anti-inflamatory agent. It depresses immune reactions, and increases the vasoconstriction caused by epinephrine.
BTW - if you read the above carefully most of the benfits of cortisol are essetail for our purposes...essential... the body will easily keep cortisol below catabolic levels for any harmful length of time... regardless of stress applied as long as the nutrient i talked about above are present.
Oh and if these "manufacturers" are going to say its lower but still within theraputic levels...lets hear what those levels are...lets see the lab work proving that. How about it guys? BTW what EXACTLY is therapeutic levels of a hormone that our body regularly fluxates levels of to create homeostasis and protect our own well being in fact potentially save our lives!! (not an exaggeration) Just wondering?????
Cortisol is very important for keeping humans alive. Cortisol is responsible for maintaining our ability to process sugars, maintain our blood pressure and react to stress and illness. Cortisol helps the body respond to stress. During times of stress, cortisol levels
increase and accelerate the breakdown of proteins to provide the fuel to maintain body functions. It acts as a physiological antagonist to insulin by promoting breakdown of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins and so mobilizing energy reserves. In addition, immune and inflammatory cells have their responses to stress attenuated by cortisol. Cortisol is known to stimulate gluconeogenesis (creation of glucose) to ensure an adequate fuel supply. It also makes fatty acids available for metabolic use. It increases mobilization of free fatty acids, making them a more available energy source, and decreases glucose utilization, sparing it for the brain. Cortisol also acts as an anti-inflamatory agent. It depresses immune reactions, and increases the vasoconstriction caused by epinephrine.
BTW - if you read the above carefully most of the benfits of cortisol are essetail for our purposes...essential... the body will easily keep cortisol below catabolic levels for any harmful length of time... regardless of stress applied as long as the nutrient i talked about above are present.
Oh and if these "manufacturers" are going to say its lower but still within theraputic levels...lets hear what those levels are...lets see the lab work proving that. How about it guys? BTW what EXACTLY is therapeutic levels of a hormone that our body regularly fluxates levels of to create homeostasis and protect our own well being in fact potentially save our lives!! (not an exaggeration) Just wondering?????
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
What peptides are you talking about...? Exogenous GH can make hands swell... so if you get a synergistic effect from both products that would make sense.
-Eric
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
This graph shows exactly what happens to cortisol levels after a week of supplementation, and 80min post exercise on PS supplementation. The non-PS group had a sharp spike in cortisol during exersize, while staying elevated.
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20-30 ug/dl would be considered the lower level of a healthy range of cortisol (enough for glucose management and anti-inflammatory effects), while 80-90 ug/dl would be indicative of high cortisol from excessive physical or mental stress or insufficient nutrition.
PS acts as a vital nutrient, just like glucose, aminos or fatty acids. When you supply the body with the nutrients it needs, you mitigate the need for cortisol. This is the desirable way to control cortisol, unlike something pharmacological like cytadren which simply impairs the bodies ability to produce cortisol.
-Eric
steveironman
Banned
*L* and the 20 mins of elevated coritsol in detrimental to us? Are you serious? hell thats PROBABLY when your blood pressure needs regulating the most....which as you know...cortisol also plays an essential role in. Eric....im sorry - it really isnt personal. At least you handle yourself with a modicum of respect ...but the product for all intensive purposes..is useless IMO ...i have pointed out every reason for that. The levels you indicate will not make one damn bit of difference...you may even know that but just cant say it...i understand that. My opinion is a shared one....people will do what they are going to do....why not direct your efforts to more promising areas of R&D ..areas that will yield legitimate results and true benefits? They do still exist and are unexplored. Do it right...do appropriate testing...disassociate yourself from supp whore scientists and their studies. Be nice to see a supp company take the high road..so few do.....
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
That short spike in cortisol and reduction in testosterone was just from a single moderately intense bicycle ride after a week of rest… which is probably much less exercise than the average weight trainer or athlete is doing.
The most prominent benefits of PS would occur in individuals under more mental or physical stress, such as the subjects in the below study (moderately/intense weight trained) –
HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
[Annual Meeting Abstracts]
Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
California State University, Chico
A double-blind, crossover design study, measured the effects of 800 mg/d soybean derived phosphatidylserine (PS) or placebo (C) during 2-wk intense weight training on cortisol (CT), adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH), testosterone (TS), luteinizing hormone (LH), well-being (WB), and muscle soreness (MS) in 11 trained males. Subjects did 5 sets of 10 repetitions of 13 exercises, 4 times/wk for 2, 2-wk periods (3-wk recovery). Venous blood was sampled 6 mornings (T1-T6) and 15-min following the 8th work-out (T7). WB and MS were estimated using 10-point scales. CT was the same in PS and C in T1-T6 but decreased between T6 and T7 in PS (15.6 ± 1.7 to 10.0±0.9μg/dL, mean±SEM, P<0.05) but not in C. ACTH did not change in PS in T1-T7 but increased in C between T4 and T5-7 by over 50%. TS increased in PS between T1 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL) and T3 (4.4±0.5 ng/mL) and fell in both treatments between T3 and T7 (3.3±0.3 ng/mL, PS; 3.3±0.4, C). LH increased significantly between T1 (1.5±0.1 mlU/mL) and T6(2.2±0.3 mlU/mL) in PS but did not change in C. WB was greater in P than C in T2-T6. In C, WB at T3 was markedly depressed (4.9±0.8). MS increased in both treatments and was greater in C than PS at T2 (61%) and T5(55%). Cortisol decreased in PS after exercise, possibly by depressing ACTH. PS attenuated the negative effects of intense weight training on perception of well-being and muscle soreness
As you can see, the non-PS group had higher cortisol after a week of weight training, while also having suppressed well-being and more muscle soreness. The non-PS group also had maintained lower testosterone levels.
-eric
Trauma1
Legend
I'm very interested to hear where you're getting 20 minutes from? Did you even look at the graph? :dunno:
If you'd truly like to get into the hemodynamic factors of blood pressure regulation, i'll gladly pull up some factual info dealing with the quite dynamic physiology for you. You'll quickly learn that cortisol is ONE of MANY factors that contribute to its regulation. I'll gladly get into how our body provides many different compensatory mechanisms for any given situation it can be put into when dealing with both exogenous and endogenous factors. Shall we drag some pathophysiology in here while we're at it as well? Why you keep bringing this up like you're making some type of novel or substantial point to verify your claims is beyond me.
The intents and purposes of many of these studies is to demonstrate the effects of cortisol s/p resistance training. Prolonged or frequent erratic spikes in cortisol are NOT desireable or conducive to muscle gains (in which the pathway has already been outlined many times). We're not trying to advocate the mitigation of cortisol levels outside the normal range. THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF ANY OF THESE STUDIES! We're looking to demonstrate the CONTROL of erratic cortisol fluctuations which can and will help to build a hormonal environment more suitable for an effective recovery period and muscle retention. I'm seriously convinced based on your demonstrated delusional logic that you don't have a clue as to the physiology, pathophysiology, or effects of cortisol to begin with.
Oh and for future reference......it's "For all intents and purposes", not as it's frequently corrupted: "For all intensive purposes".
steveironman
Banned
I'm very interested to hear where you're getting 20 minutes from? Did you even look at the graph? :dunno:
If you'd truly like to get into the hemodynamic factors of blood pressure regulation, i'll gladly pull up some factual info dealing with the quite dynamic physiology for you. You'll quickly learn that cortisol is ONE of MANY factors that contribute to its regulation. I'll gladly get into how our body provides many different compensatory mechanisms for any given situation it can be put into when dealing with both exogenous and endogenous factors. Shall we drag some pathophysiology in here while we're at it as well? Why you keep bringing this up like you're making some type of novel or substantial point to verify your claims is beyond me.
The intents and purposes of many of these studies is to demonstrate the effects of cortisol s/p resistance training. Prolonged or frequent erratic spikes in cortisol are NOT desireable or conducive to muscle gains (in which the pathway has already been outlined many times). We're not trying to advocate the mitigation of cortisol levels outside the normal range. THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF ANY OF THESE STUDIES! We're looking to demonstrate the CONTROL of erratic cortisol fluctuations which can and will help to build a hormonal environment more suitable for an effective recovery period and muscle retention. I'm seriously convinced based on your demonstrated delusional logic that you don't have a clue as to the physiology, pathophysiology, or effects of cortisol to begin with.
Oh and for future reference......it's "For all intents and purposes", not as it's frequently corrupted: "For all intensive purposes".
The point isnt blood pressure - thats just one example where cortisol exerts it ESSENTIAL effects. . The point is cortisol and the effects it exerts that are necessary for proper bodily function. I get 20 mins b/c as you pointed out int is the "spike" you are (unnecessarily) concerned with..im sure u can read the graph ..in the placebo that spike lasts 20 mins! To suggest eliminating that is beneficial , considering all the vital factors cortisol exerts on the body is laughable. Here - perhaps you should have read this the first 2 times i posted it :
Cortisol is very important for keeping humans alive. Cortisol is responsible for maintaining our ability to process sugars, maintain our blood pressure and react to stress and illness. Cortisol helps the body respond to stress. During times of stress, cortisol levels
increase and accelerate the breakdown of proteins to provide the fuel to maintain body functions. It acts as a physiological antagonist to insulin by promoting breakdown of carbohydrates, lipids, and proteins and so mobilizing energy reserves. In addition, immune and inflammatory cells have their responses to stress attenuated by cortisol. Cortisol is known to stimulate gluconeogenesis (creation of glucose) to ensure an adequate fuel supply. It also makes fatty acids available for metabolic use. It increases mobilization of free fatty acids, making them a more available energy source, and decreases glucose utilization, sparing it for the brain. Cortisol also acts as an anti-inflamatory agent. It depresses immune reactions, and increases the vasoconstriction caused by epinephrine.
BTW - if you read the above carefully most of the benefits of cortisol are essential for our purposes...essential... the body will easily keep cortisol below catabolic levels for any harmful length of time... regardless of stress applied as long as the nutrient i talked about above are present.
And again ill ask ..how do you determine therapeutic levels of a hormone our body releases levels of based uopn it needs to control vital bodily functions? Can either one of you PLEASE give a straight answer to a direct question????? Apparently not ... Then again you cant defend an indefensible position....
Trauma1
Legend
Really? Then why have you brought it up numerous times? Probably in a haste-filled feeble attempt to support your apparent novel "claims". You're missing the point completely in regard to what this product does, its intended use, and why it was formulated as such. Your statements here only futher support that you don't even have a basic fundamental understanding of the physiology/pathophysiology of cortisol, how and why numerous factors influence it (for the good and the bad), or any of its effects at the cellular level.
Here's the graph again. As you can see, it's clearly demonstrates that cortisol is elevated over the entire course of the 80 minute post workout period in comparison to the placebo group. Yes - there is a "spike" noted from an already demonstrated basal-rate elevation, but the overall graph trend is equally important here (remember we're looking POST WORKOUT HERE!). If you understood the physiology of cortisol you'd understand that these "spikes" can and will happen frequently over the course of a day due to typical physical and mental stessors alone (outside what we're even attempting to demonstrate here for the purposes of this product). Notice it begins to rise again at 80 minute mark. Eating a healthy diet is paramount to mitigate the negative profound effects it can cause; nobody is arguing that, but again you're missing the point of this whole focal topic. I really think you're beginning to grasp at air now, because you have no quantifiable substance in the majority of your posts.
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Lol - You can post this all day long, and it's still clearly evident you don't understand the purpose of this product, or any of the cumulative physiology/ pathophysiology effects of cortisol involved on body functions or processes (from a training/recovery aspect or otherwise); again - you're posting nothing more than "words".... :sleeping:
Once again, you just don't get it. The bolded statement is completely inaccurate; yet again see the responses above. You're posting nothing but words without a general understanding here at even the fundamental level. Please stop, you're killing me...
Eric already helped you on the path here:
To elaborate on that - Cortisol levels can and will fluctuate in EVERYBODY due to the time of day, as well as different exogenous and endogenous factors on a daily basis. If you understood basic human anatomy and physiology, you'd already know that. This again is where you don't seem to understand the basis of the product, or the studies that have been demonstrated. You base all your arguements on a failed internal logic. You're attempting to misdirect this whole thread on some type of self-absorbed delusional tirade. Give it a rest already...
Everytime you post this i get a good ------> :lol:
steveironman
Banned
^^^ oh where to begin. Well blood pressure was brought up as an example because as ive said it is something cortisol is essential in regulating during times of stress. In addition to ALL the other factors its essential to ive pointed out in my posts. I can read the graph ...perhaps you and eric should get on the same page peddling your product..i mean HE said its the spike in cortisoil levels we need be concerned with..and that "spike" lasts a whopping 20 mins. Baseline cortisol levels are elevated during times of stress FOR A REASON - and many effects of this are beneficial to us ...not detrimental ..as anyone who read my post re: effects of cortisol could understand. You can come at me with statements of not understanding anatomy and physiology etc. Which is laughable...my understanding of these topics and all others associated with this conversation dwarf yours with your nursing (and again i respect the profession - i do - no sarcasm there) and internet knowledge - thats for sure. As for your obvious ridiculous statement of cortisol constantly fluctuating ... no kidding ...it does so again FOR A REASON. The bottom line is ....your product, all factors equal , adequate diet rest and training ...is useless. Also it will in no way make up for a lack of any one of these 3 essential componnents. I know you cant say it..i know you need to defend it to the end. I even understand your need to get the last post in and try to create a positive spin for your ineffective product. Your condescending attitude makes me laugh a bit...and your innuendo and insults do as well. Also the "nursing knowledge" and BS study interpretations and "we can talk science" statements are laughable as well. We could talk TRUE science if you had any real studies ...on your product...done correctly....but you dont. Slight test increase for people who are not under therapeutic test levels (less than 1% of people on this board im sure - if that) = useless. External cortisol control attempts for same demographic(people here living this lifestyle) = useless and IMO not prudent(a shared opinion by many - some highly respected in this industry for their scientific minds and cutting edge innovation) . GH increase - well as stated = laughable - not nearly high enough of long enough in duration to do a damn thing. All in all your product fails on all three main claims AND to try and claim any synergistic benefits of these 3 minor changes ...well surely even you wouldnt try to go there. Why the hell would someone waste their money on a product that will not yield results ? Its senseless and a shame you guys wasted your time on this one. Hell all the effort & money could have been direct to a truly beneficial supplement and PROPER product R&D and TESTING that would yield RESULTS!
matthias7
Well-known member
To be honest I am a bit disappointed. I thought that builders would know their biochemistry a bit more. A few pretty graphs and a few references and everyone says 'cool'.
I am skeptical as well. I haven't looked through the references in detail but as a gut reaction I think this is heavy over-sell.
What you've got is an choligenic (I can never spell that would correctly) agent and modified serine. GPC is a well know choligenic agent.
Both GPC and serine are nootropic agents really. GPC looks cool nootropic stuff; in terms of getting neurones whizzing that should do it. Phosphatidylserine has never really been linked to nootropic effects but is suspected.
To go on to say that'll (GPC) shift HG production is a big claim. I am not going to advocate using HGH directly - but that would sure increase HG!
In terms of phosphatidylserine shifting cortisol ... I really doubt that. In terms of supporting testosterone well perhaps but so do a lot of things.
If you really want to discuss this scientifically okay.... but you'll need to know your facts and not just waft references about.
I am skeptical as well. I haven't looked through the references in detail but as a gut reaction I think this is heavy over-sell.
What you've got is an choligenic (I can never spell that would correctly) agent and modified serine. GPC is a well know choligenic agent.
Both GPC and serine are nootropic agents really. GPC looks cool nootropic stuff; in terms of getting neurones whizzing that should do it. Phosphatidylserine has never really been linked to nootropic effects but is suspected.
To go on to say that'll (GPC) shift HG production is a big claim. I am not going to advocate using HGH directly - but that would sure increase HG!
In terms of phosphatidylserine shifting cortisol ... I really doubt that. In terms of supporting testosterone well perhaps but so do a lot of things.
If you really want to discuss this scientifically okay.... but you'll need to know your facts and not just waft references about.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
You should look at the references in detail. There are almost a dozen human studies that have confirmed that PS mitigates the rise in cortisol from physical or mental stress. (I reference them in the Invalid Link Removed)
The Alpha-GPC has research supporting its GH boosting effects, and a recent study that showed a 14% increase in bench press force after a single oral dose… possibly related to the GH boosting effects, possibly not. (The same 600mg dose included in EndoAmp Max)
-Eric
Trauma1
Legend
Sarcasm? You? Never.....It's not even clever sarcasm, sadly. I don't know about you steve, but i can certainly tell quite a bit about someone based on their ability to effectively articulate thoughts, ideas, and/or arguements; as well as how they employ the proper use of grammar, sentence structure, and punctuation to demonstrate it. This is yet another abysmal attempt at that. This entire run-on paragraph is a demonstrative case-in-point. It's painful to try and read......seriously! This is not passing judgement either, it's an obvious observation. I guess they casually forgot to teach the fundamentals of language/writing skills in this self-professed "high-level" education you have, eh? Yet you claim to "dwarf" my aptitude? :lol:
I really love how in a ploy of desperation you continuously and falsely personify yourself as a "victim" of insult and/or abuse in these threads. Please spare us all the fabrication of a tired and delusional internet drama...
Shall we get back to the focal product topic now, or do you yet again have a novel and purposeless misdirection to lead us?
Trauma1
Legend
Is that so? I ask you yet again; have you even read any of the reference material? Do you understand what you're reading if you have? Any support for your claims as well?
I'm sorry to hear that you feel this way, steve. We believe this product to be effective in its purpose and stated claims. :wave2:
matthias7
Well-known member
matthias7
Well-known member
Okay here is the full abstract:
First thing to note is that the effect is not dose dependent. 400mg is as effective as 800mg.
Second thing to note... it is not statistically significant!
"Pronounced" does not mean statistically significant. Thus basically the sample size is too small to draw any significant conclusions.
What they are saying is that cortisol levels are controlled relating to a greater ability to tolerate "stress". The stress they were subjected to was the "Trier Social Stress Test" whatever that is - doesn't appear to be related to physical activity.
As a prelimenary trial it is interesting, as a cast-iron it is a long way from that. Of course statistical valid study - it isn't. If it was the abstract would say so.
I've not read the full paper - its just too much hassle going and collecting but I bet their stats are out. The other thing I don't like is their failure to reveal what the shift in cortisol is in the abstract - thats a bit weird. It should be stated.
So its interesting but nothing brilliant.
The produce itself 66grams for $55 - correct me if I'm wrong here. Its about 120 caps of PAS. That is more or less what I pay in the UK. Obviously it ain't just PAS but GPLC as well but it doesn't seem amazing value.
Really I don't have time to go through all the references but if you'd like to put up your strongest reference for PAS and for GPLC then I'd be happy to look at them.
PAS alone alot has been linked to it but nothing from my understanding seems to strongly stick. Again prove me wrong, put your best two references forward please.
First thing to note is that the effect is not dose dependent. 400mg is as effective as 800mg.
Second thing to note... it is not statistically significant!
"Pronounced" does not mean statistically significant. Thus basically the sample size is too small to draw any significant conclusions.
What they are saying is that cortisol levels are controlled relating to a greater ability to tolerate "stress". The stress they were subjected to was the "Trier Social Stress Test" whatever that is - doesn't appear to be related to physical activity.
As a prelimenary trial it is interesting, as a cast-iron it is a long way from that. Of course statistical valid study - it isn't. If it was the abstract would say so.
I've not read the full paper - its just too much hassle going and collecting but I bet their stats are out. The other thing I don't like is their failure to reveal what the shift in cortisol is in the abstract - thats a bit weird. It should be stated.
So its interesting but nothing brilliant.
The produce itself 66grams for $55 - correct me if I'm wrong here. Its about 120 caps of PAS. That is more or less what I pay in the UK. Obviously it ain't just PAS but GPLC as well but it doesn't seem amazing value.
Really I don't have time to go through all the references but if you'd like to put up your strongest reference for PAS and for GPLC then I'd be happy to look at them.
PAS alone alot has been linked to it but nothing from my understanding seems to strongly stick. Again prove me wrong, put your best two references forward please.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
What is the name of the study? Not sure what you are saying here
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
I posted some noteworthy refs here and explain the basic action and benefits of PS in weight training -
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There really is no single silver bullet study... but a compilation of research that shows PS and Alpha-GPC have ergonomic effects in athletes.
BTW, we have best price on the net for the amount of PS and Alpha-GPC that you get in EndoAmp Max. (if you can find a better price Id like to see)
-Eric
matthias7
Well-known member
Thats not a response... I only have time to go through 2 papers in detail. If the paper is good enough I'll get it and read it then send an objective opinion back. I'm not wading through 30 references - thats okay for your guys but this isn't my field.
Price EndoAmp Max okay I'll check the price. So it is $55 for 66g. So around $1 per g.
It would be useful if you could let me know exactly how much PAS and Alpha-GPC there is in the mix. Are there any bulking agents in it? There is a big issue about so called "bio-active" PAS and thats not cheap - thats what I use. I dunno what that really means though.
Price EndoAmp Max okay I'll check the price. So it is $55 for 66g. So around $1 per g.
It would be useful if you could let me know exactly how much PAS and Alpha-GPC there is in the mix. Are there any bulking agents in it? There is a big issue about so called "bio-active" PAS and thats not cheap - thats what I use. I dunno what that really means though.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
17.4gm of Alpha-GPC
46.4gm of PS (50%)
Here is a good on PS improving the testosterone to cortisol ratio...
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Keep in mind it was dulled down for patent purposes, so Jager didnt really discuss the T level improvement in this final published study - (although they do in the review that I have) You can look at the graphs though. they are acruate and they clearly show an improvement.
There more more studies that show an ergonomic improvement from PS too... so if you want to see something like that I can show you.
-Eric
matthias7
Well-known member
As a quick read... the result do look significant for cortisol and testo. Not however for HGH.
Its not a great journal but the results do look convincing.
I need to read it in detail and look at exactly what the sample size is and the stats they are using. But yeah ...
Its not a great journal but the results do look convincing.
I need to read it in detail and look at exactly what the sample size is and the stats they are using. But yeah ...
matthias7
Well-known member
Okay I've read it. I don't have any problems give that this is a developing area of research.
The stats are okay, the ANOVA analysis really needed an Rmax calculation to check it was valid. Otherwise no complaints.
The sample size is SMALL. The basic conclusion is looks good, but it would need repeating with a bigger sample size.
Basically PAS is capping the cortisol response under INTENSIVE training (to exhaustion). So if thats your gym routine PAS is a good supplement. The paper is pretty well written and easy to read.
The proposed mechanism:
"PS plays a significant role in the maintenance of neuronal excitability and message transfer potentially resulting in a reduced need for adrenergic stimulation at moderate intensity exercise levels"
The increase in testo seemed okay but one of the stats wasn't significant. There was no significant increase in HGH.
Thanks do you have any similar paper on GPC?
The stats are okay, the ANOVA analysis really needed an Rmax calculation to check it was valid. Otherwise no complaints.
The sample size is SMALL. The basic conclusion is looks good, but it would need repeating with a bigger sample size.
Basically PAS is capping the cortisol response under INTENSIVE training (to exhaustion). So if thats your gym routine PAS is a good supplement. The paper is pretty well written and easy to read.
The proposed mechanism:
"PS plays a significant role in the maintenance of neuronal excitability and message transfer potentially resulting in a reduced need for adrenergic stimulation at moderate intensity exercise levels"
The increase in testo seemed okay but one of the stats wasn't significant. There was no significant increase in HGH.
Thanks do you have any similar paper on GPC?
Trauma1
Legend
Here's one to start. I'll try to post up more later when i have a bit more time.
Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to, and peak force production during, resistance exercise
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Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to, and peak force production during, resistance exercise
Invalid Link Removed
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
That was just a study on PS for the T:C benefits. Its the Alpha-GPC that provides the GH boosting effects.
Trauma posted a good study above ^
-Eric
matthias7
Well-known member
Okay I read it. Small paper. The sample size was too small to be significant. Pity.
The PAS - cortisol link is strong and it looks (pretty much) like there is a link with testosterone. However these associations are for excercise till exhaustion. "bioactive" it must be though.
A-GPC as a cholinergenic agent should be good. As a means of increasing HGH - certainly the paper above was inconclusive. There could be better studies - the problem again was that there were not enough people in the study - actually if my memory serves me it was rats. I know nothing about rats but they seemed really old rats.
The price of the product has slightly decreased I think its now $52. My conclusion is for those 1 or 2wice a week work till you drop sessions - this looks good.
The PAS - cortisol link is strong and it looks (pretty much) like there is a link with testosterone. However these associations are for excercise till exhaustion. "bioactive" it must be though.
A-GPC as a cholinergenic agent should be good. As a means of increasing HGH - certainly the paper above was inconclusive. There could be better studies - the problem again was that there were not enough people in the study - actually if my memory serves me it was rats. I know nothing about rats but they seemed really old rats.
The price of the product has slightly decreased I think its now $52. My conclusion is for those 1 or 2wice a week work till you drop sessions - this looks good.
Trauma1
Legend
When i get some time this weekend, i'll post some more studies for you to look over, matthias. The sample size was small in the article i posted, but i think what was demonstrated was at least fairly promising in regard to A-GPC. Yes more studies are needed, but it's a pretty good start and some insight into the potential.
There are some guys now posting up their anecdotal feedback with our EndoAmp Max product. I'll put together a log that consolidates that info and post it up in here for a general review.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
The study was with humans.
As i said there isnt any single study that will "prove" anything, but a compilation of research that shows a strong corelation between PS/Alpha-GPC supporting GH & testosterone while keeping cortisol in check.
I know ChemiNutra has more studies planned for these nutrients. Heck, they just filed a patent on PS for its effects on testosterone...
-Eric
matthias7
Well-known member
Funny.... indeed. I read so many papers I was getting them confused...
Getting humans confused with lab rats.... I wonder why?
Okay the result wasn't significant. Sample size was 7 ... low.
I disagree on the one study doesn't "prove" anything. The previous study here on PAS was statistically significant. There was no question that was a real result and it was pretty real even for testosterone as well. The question on that one study was to independently repeat it. Given all these studies use low sample sizes it was striking how significant the results were. It was pretty stunning actually.
A-GPC at a guess I'd say the effect is more marginal.
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
Funny.... indeed. I read so many papers I was getting them confused...
Getting humans confused with lab rats.... I wonder why?
Okay the result wasn't significant. Sample size was 7 ... low.
I disagree on the one study doesn't "prove" anything. The previous study here on PAS was statistically significant. There was no question that was a real result and it was pretty real even for testosterone as well. The question on that one study was to independently repeat it. Given all these studies use low sample sizes it was striking how significant the results were. It was pretty stunning actually.
A-GPC at a guess I'd say the effect is more marginal.
Well like I says the evidence is in the compilation of many references… so here is another on Alpha-GPC and GH in humans… I guess its just easier to swallow them one at a time eh?
-Eric