Havoc stack, to SERM or not to SERM.

ChaoticReign

New member
Hello all. I'm new around here but very impressed witht he knowledge base. Hopefully you all can shed some light.

I'm 21 and have ran Havoc once already at 30/30/30/30 and ran an OTC PCT that worked fine. No gyno issues and all is well. I'm looking at running Havoc again after a little more time off at 20/30/40/40 stacked with PP's dermacrine. I have access to Nolvadex and was wondering what the general consensus was for PCT protocol. Originally I went OTC after hearing a couple horror stories involving Havoc and delayed gyno after using a SERM.

But now, seeing as this will be a little heavier dosage wise and likely will result in a little more shutdown I'm leaning towards the nolva.

Input would be really appreciated.
 
u can run it just to be safe at a real low dose like 20/20/10/10...but ive gone to 40mgs before with no problems. a solid OTC pct should suffice, but it is always good to have on hand. i would see how u feel as the cycle comes to a close to decide if u need the SERM or not.
 
You can go OTC route if you wish or serm, as a rule of thumb its always wise to have a serm on hand incase sh1t hits teh fan.

are you prone to gyno? id use clomi instead but thats just my opinion
 
bigpapa said:
u can run it just to be safe at a real low dose like 20/20/10/10...but ive gone to 40mgs before with no problems. a solid OTC pct should suffice, but it is always good to have on hand. i would see how u feel as the cycle comes to a close to decide if u need the SERM or not.
Click to expand...

I agree go with low dose Nolva with a natty test booster.
 
ChaoticReign said:
Hello all. I'm new around here but very impressed witht he knowledge base. Hopefully you all can shed some light.

I'm 21 and have ran Havoc once already at 30/30/30/30 and ran an OTC PCT that worked fine. No gyno issues and all is well. I'm looking at running Havoc again after a little more time off at 20/30/40/40 stacked with PP's dermacrine. I have access to Nolvadex and was wondering what the general consensus was for PCT protocol. Originally I went OTC after hearing a couple horror stories involving Havoc and delayed gyno after using a SERM.

But now, seeing as this will be a little heavier dosage wise and likely will result in a little more shutdown I'm leaning towards the nolva.

Input would be really appreciated.
Click to expand...
Was the delayed gyno in people who were prone to it or people running Havoc for the first time?

I'm about to run my first cycle ever, using Havoc, and I was under the impression from the things I read that gyno was nearly impossible.

This is so frustrating, just when I think I've got things figured out here comes another wrench.
 
LAGear said:
Was the delayed gyno in people who were prone to it or people running Havoc for the first time?

I'm about to run my first cycle ever, using Havoc, and I was under the impression from the things I read that gyno was nearly impossible.

This is so frustrating, just when I think I've got things figured out here comes another wrench.
Click to expand...


Gyno is a real possibility with any steriod.
 
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm probably going to follow an OTC protocol with a low dosed SERM just to be on the safe side.
 
ChaoticReign said:
Hello all. I'm new around here but very impressed witht he knowledge base. Hopefully you all can shed some light.

I'm 21 and have ran Havoc once already at 30/30/30/30 and ran an OTC PCT that worked fine. No gyno issues and all is well. I'm looking at running Havoc again after a little more time off at 20/30/40/40 stacked with PP's dermacrine. I have access to Nolvadex and was wondering what the general consensus was for PCT protocol. Originally I went OTC after hearing a couple horror stories involving Havoc and delayed gyno after using a SERM.

But now, seeing as this will be a little heavier dosage wise and likely will result in a little more shutdown I'm leaning towards the nolva.

Input would be really appreciated.
Click to expand...

I ran it at the same 20/30/30/40 and used AI PCS and it was just fine I had nolva on hand just for incase, you can run it as well at low doses 20/20/10/10along with OTC PCT to restore natural test because AI PCS has reversitol in it so you will be good, but to answer your question I would keep the SERM just in case :wave2:
 
pembroke3355 said:
Gyno is a real possibility with any steriod.
Click to expand...
Yes. And unfortunately there's no agreement on the best way to prevent it.

I've read: SERM, no SERM, AI, no AI, both, neither, taper, inverse taper... And everyone who makes a suggestion says it works for them. And for every protocol it seems like some still get gyno.

At least for Havoc/Epi most people seem to agree that no AI is needed which is one of the things that attracts me to Havoc -- no AI means one less thing to think about. But it seems like Havoc has a higher incidence of gyno so that is a deal breaker for me.

Am I wrong in being frustrated and feeling like no matter what you do you're playing Russian roulette with respect to getting gyno?
 
ChaoticReign said:
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm probably going to follow an OTC protocol with a low dosed SERM just to be on the safe side.
Click to expand...

Good choice some Nolva with Post Cycle Support and Formex should be a safe pct.
 
ChaoticReign said:
Hello all. I'm new around here but very impressed witht he knowledge base. Hopefully you all can shed some light.

I'm 21 and have ran Havoc once already at 30/30/30/30 and ran an OTC PCT that worked fine. No gyno issues and all is well. I'm looking at running Havoc again after a little more time off at 20/30/40/40 stacked with PP's dermacrine. I have access to Nolvadex and was wondering what the general consensus was for PCT protocol. Originally I went OTC after hearing a couple horror stories involving Havoc and delayed gyno after using a SERM.

But now, seeing as this will be a little heavier dosage wise and likely will result in a little more shutdown I'm leaning towards the nolva.

Input would be really appreciated.
Click to expand...
Theirs a new company out called FightLabs. They have a PCT called ESTRO-TEST. It has alot of trick stuff in it in addition to the ATD. My buddy got a sample at the Arnold last march and is just comming off an 8 week cycle. Here's what the label says:

Proprietary Blend 510mg *
Tribulus Terrestris, Resveratrol,
Mucuna Puriens, Stinging nettle,
3,17-dioxo etiochol-1,4,6-triene Zinc
monomethionine aspartate, Icariin,
SMEDDS

So far so good, his bench is still strong and his nipples aren't soar. Will keep you posted.

The flyer says SMEDDS stands for Self-Micro Emulsifying Drug Delivery System, supposed to increase the bio availability.
 
This is hard to follow. I am a potential first time havoc user and I am trying to get a good understanding of what needs to be in a pct. There are alot of oppinions in this thread and trying to sort through them is getting tough. Which of the methods being discussed is the "safest"? I don't want to have a bad experience on my first cycle.
 
For OTC PCT I like ESTRO-TEST by FightLabs

ChaoticReign said:
Hello all. I'm new around here but very impressed witht he knowledge base. Hopefully you all can shed some light.

I'm 21 and have ran Havoc once already at 30/30/30/30 and ran an OTC PCT that worked fine. No gyno issues and all is well. I'm looking at running Havoc again after a little more time off at 20/30/40/40 stacked with PP's dermacrine. I have access to Nolvadex and was wondering what the general consensus was for PCT protocol. Originally I went OTC after hearing a couple horror stories involving Havoc and delayed gyno after using a SERM.

But now, seeing as this will be a little heavier dosage wise and likely will result in a little more shutdown I'm leaning towards the nolva.

Input would be really appreciated.
Click to expand...

Had really good experience with FightLabs ESTRO-TEST. Has a test booster and an estrogen blocker. Capsule is over 500mg. Ran 1 botte after my last cycle and I was good to go.
 
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