Does science support the existence of God?

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In essence I think this series of questions sort of sums it up:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Pretty much, which is why I have yet to find a Christian willing to use concrete descriptors of his god. You ask for a simple description such as:

Hey, this is John. He's a male latino, 5'9" 195 pounds. He is a barber...etc

You will get ramblings and avoidances. In the rare case that you do, once you point out how some qualities contradict or are impossible to hold simultaneously (god is perfect, god is jealous...well, jealousy is a fault which eliminates the possibility of perfection) then they retreat into "who are we to know or question god".

However, since it is impossible to have true belief in something that you don't even have a clue what it is, it makes it nothing more than "i have faith that something is there".
 
Dsade you are correct, no one truly knows God, and no one has it 100% correct on how to worship Him. I believe the Bible, and it even states Who can know the mind of God?, so you will never have any man perfectly answer all your questions. Also, since no one has seen or met God the Father, how can one verify answers? There is always an aspect of faith in dealing with religion. If you do not believe the Bible, or a priest/pastor, then any explanation that uses these as a reference will be invalid.

However, if you do believe in a God, and that God may be the one mentioned in the Bible and that at least some things in the Bible are fact, Biblically speaking, entrance into Heaven is not based on church membership, or even the morality of your life, it is based solely on the acceptance of our need for the work done on the cross by Jesus and that He is the Son of God. Whether or not you understand, or even agree with some of the acts/punishments of God, knowing these things, would you not want to get out of that punishment?, especially since it is easy, based only on faith, not our own worthiness, or unworthiness. Essentially your only agreement has to be that you have sinned, and you believe that Jesus took your punishment. You dont have to agree with everything. Also, if you believe those things, does it not show that God does exhibit characteristics of love and mercy?

I am not going to be able to give answers to many questions, as I may not know them myself, and the ones I do know will be based on Bible teachings and unless there is some aspect of faith shared, that will not work. I do know that I believe that I have escaped eternal punishment, hell if you will, by that simple faith, though I deserve punishment, just as much and probably more than most. I only respond because I really dont want to see anyone go to hell, and it can be so easily avoided. I dont want anyone to feel that just because they dont agree with everything in the Bible, or dont have a perfect understanding, etc. that this means God is against them, or that it takes this to get to Heaven. It is my belief that if you just have even just that little faith in that one area, that you will be able to ask God all those questions when you get to Heaven.
 
In a world packed full of thousands of religions all pretty much claiming the same with NOThING to prove one over another, your chances of choosing incorrectly ad being doubly punished as a heretic are much greater than lucking into choosing jesus and nailing it (no pun intended).

Whereas, given the construct of my mind and the requirements by nature for belief, it is much more reasonable to hold my position - and any being that creates such a creature then punishes him for acting and beliving according to his nature ( especially when belief is not a conscious decision - you either believe or you dont) is so far from just as to incite a desire to be as far from it as possible.

Morality based on threat of punishment is not morality...itis fear. moral is doing the right thing whether anyone knows or not.

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Sorry, the last thing I wanted to do was incite the desire to be as far away from God as possible, rather to want to be nearer to Him. No wonder my Pastor told me he appreciates my desire to go on visitation, but thinks I would be better suited to taking up space in the back row (just a joke, my Pastor is a good guy, though the above statement may be true). Regardless, I do hope that neither of us, or anyone else for that matter has to face eternal punishment.

I am glad that the discussions on weightlifting dont end up back firing like this, America would be even more overweight that it already is.
 
In essence I think this series of questions sort of sums it up:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Okay, with this set of hypotheical questions is leads to nowhere. It is real simple because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have to go through many troublesomes, God at any point can prevent things from happening but he chooses no to; we are not worthy of mercy but God still had Jesus die and resurrected for us. God is not entitled to deliver, why you think allows the devil to test and to torture. God is God, supreme being; whether one likes the way he is, he is still God. If I got to explaining why most people see things the wa they do; it would cause arguments which I do not want. I believe in reasoning rather than arguing. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when the trumpet sounds and people see people dissappearing then all doubters will know that God is real and his ways are to stand, if anyone has a question, you can pm me or e-mail me at [email protected] or even call me. I do know that God is real and delivered me out of a recent situation that could have landed me in jail, he is real but help those WHO ARE FAITHFUL AND OBEDIENT.
 
Okay, with this set of hypotheical questions is leads to nowhere. It is real simple because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have to go through many troublesomes, God at any point can prevent things from happening but he chooses no to; we are not worthy of mercy but God still had Jesus die and resurrected for us. God is not entitled to deliver, why you think allows the devil to test and to torture. God is God, supreme being; whether one likes the way he is, he is still God. If I got to explaining why most people see things the wa they do; it would cause arguments which I do not want. I believe in reasoning rather than arguing. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when the trumpet sounds and people see people dissappearing then all doubters will know that God is real and his ways are to stand, if anyone has a question, you can pm me or e-mail me at [email protected] or even call me. I do know that God is real and delivered me out of a recent situation that could have landed me in jail, he is real but help those WHO ARE FAITHFUL AND OBEDIENT.

I always love these posts...

how do you know god is real?

so he helps those only who blindly follow him?

what situation "could have" landed you in jail, that isn't a result of you committing a crime? (in which case, you should be in jail!)

(why am I getting back into this?)
 
Okay, with this set of hypotheical questions is leads to nowhere. It is real simple because of Adam and Eve's sin, we have to go through many troublesomes, God at any point can prevent things from happening but he chooses no to; we are not worthy of mercy but God still had Jesus die and resurrected for us. God is not entitled to deliver, why you think allows the devil to test and to torture. God is God, supreme being; whether one likes the way he is, he is still God. If I got to explaining why most people see things the wa they do; it would cause arguments which I do not want. I believe in reasoning rather than arguing. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when the trumpet sounds and people see people dissappearing then all doubters will know that God is real and his ways are to stand, if anyone has a question, you can pm me or e-mail me at [email protected] or even call me. I do know that God is real and delivered me out of a recent situation that could have landed me in jail, he is real but help those WHO ARE FAITHFUL AND OBEDIENT.

So because of the sins of one person, everyone else is automatically punished? Fair? This makes god's "justice" a falsehood.

God is not "entitled"? Really? as the creator of everything he can't do anything he wants? Why do I think he allows the devil to tempt us? I don't...believing in neither God nor the Devil, I think things in themselves can be addictive, or pleasurable, etc BASED ON THE REACTIONS AND SENSATIONS APPARENT IN NATURE. Basically they are how they were "made". Fault? Hmm...fill in either your favorite creation myth, or determine that a lot of the cruel practices actually result in favorable conditions for the propagation of the cruelests DNA. In actuality, Nature REWARDS some actions.

Your faith does not satisfy the conditions of that which we call knowledge, so you DON'T know...you have faith. If you had knowledge, you would not longer have faith and you would be disqualified from this sick game that is set up to reward unthinking belief and punish critical evaluation.

Seriously - you people like tromping out the "free will/freedom of choice" thing. How would free will be affected if God Himself popped into existence, shouting to the highlands (so that there would be NO question of existence) making the dead walk and severed limbs grow back "Follow these instructions or I will punish you for Eternity". Does that somehow remove your free will to STILL disobey? No? Then your argument is flawed and irrelevant.If anything, you will would be MORE free, since you then have all the information you need to make your decision.
 
Andrew and all of the rest...I read in a book that you all killed someone. In your estimation, would justice be served if ONLY on the authority of some book (no, you do not get to cross examine the author..we don't really even know who the author is) that we immediately sentenced you all to execution?

Funny...look at Justice in the American legal system. You cannot be convicted based on hearsay...why would you expect anyone else to swallow hearsay as a valid means of decision making/knowledge?
 
I always love these posts...

how do you know god is real?

so he helps those only who blindly follow him?

what situation "could have" landed you in jail, that isn't a result of you committing a crime? (in which case, you should be in jail!)

(why am I getting back into this?)

Well my friend I did not commit a crime, it was a false accusation that lead cops to investigate but the truth was revealed and God delivered me out of the situation. Again I am fortunate to know how real God is, I have seen people filled with power of God, who God has used to ressurect people fom the dead, heal people with cancer, the list goes on. See I do not want to offend anyone but the truth is we are selfish, we want everything our way and with instant gratification; which is not the way God works.
Dsade you are a smart man, but it is better to be wise than to be smart.
 
Andrew and all of the rest...I read in a book that you all killed someone. In your estimation, would justice be served if ONLY on the authority of some book (no, you do not get to cross examine the author..we don't really even know who the author is) that we immediately sentenced you all to execution?

Funny...look at Justice in the American legal system. You cannot be convicted based on hearsay...why would you expect anyone else to swallow hearsay as a valid means of decision making/knowledge?

I understand were you get the word herasy, again I have had God minister to me personally, so that is why I know God is real and yes the word of God is written through man, so I can see how you come with the word herasy.
I see you mentioned we all killed someone, if you are referring by a form of judgement or criticism, that is not me at all. Unfortunately many christians make the mistake of enforcing judgement, when God is the only one to judge. I only pray those who do not live a Godly life, I too have my faults, so I worry about me, and get on myself and myself only. The only reason why I even answer your questions is because I care for your salvation, I would love to see you all in heaven.
 
EDIT: Never mind. I lack the energy and the desire :)

Damn...I need better Brian Bait.

/you, my friend, and I have come a long way these past 6 years. :)
 
Yes we have. :)

6 years. Wow...where's the time and my hair gone?
The way of everything that has it's Primetime...entropy.

/at least sometimes Entropic Wisdom is there to comfort.
//who'm I kidding...I AM in my prime!!!
 
Well my friend I did not commit a crime, it was a false accusation that lead cops to investigate but the truth was revealed and God delivered me out of the situation. Again I am fortunate to know how real God is, I have seen people filled with power of God, who God has used to ressurect people fom the dead, heal people with cancer, the list goes on. See I do not want to offend anyone but the truth is we are selfish, we want everything our way and with instant gratification; which is not the way God works.
Dsade you are a smart man, but it is better to be wise than to be smart.


You don't know me, nor the depths of my intelligence OR wisdom.

And you have NOT "seen" anything like ressurection with your own eyes - which is why it's called hearsay.

You claim a false accusation almost sent you to jail? Well, using reason and occam's razor, what is more likely - that someone 2000 years ago raised the dead and came back to life? Or that people, with an obvious motive to benefit by spreading such a story, would lie about it?

No court in the land would do anything but throw the case out of court...which should tell you something about the veracity of the "evidence".
 
The way of everything that has it's Primetime...entropy.

/at least sometimes Entropic Wisdom is there to comfort.
//who'm I kidding...I AM in my prime!!!
Mid 30's through early 40's were my best years yet. At 43 I hit a wall :banghead:
Looking this good is getting to be more work and more painful ;)
 
please refer back to earlier posts I made directly from the ot, that dispute your statement

Reaper, I think these were located pretty close to you. What do you make of this, do you have any knowledge of these remains?

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Reaper, I think these were located pretty close to you. What do you make of this, do you have any knowledge of these remains?

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I'd hit it...but a bit skinny for my taste.

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Ur a sic little monkey, D. How do you even know if that giant was a female! :sour:
Are you judging my lifestyle????

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You don't know me, nor the depths of my intelligence OR wisdom.

And you have NOT "seen" anything like ressurection with your own eyes - which is why it's called hearsay.

You claim a false accusation almost sent you to jail? Well, using reason and occam's razor, what is more likely - that someone 2000 years ago raised the dead and came back to life? Or that people, with an obvious motive to benefit by spreading such a story, would lie about it?

No court in the land would do anything but throw the case out of court...which should tell you something about the veracity of the "evidence".

That is what I meant third person view, I know what herasy is, it is when you take someone's word without full evidence or oneself witnessing the event.
I am not saying you are not wise nor am I judging you, just merely making you think. Again people sometimes rise against the people of God as they get closer to God, such as myself, but again God is there for me, we shall talk more later, take care and God bless.
 
Hey Doc. That "giant" was already a proven hoax. However I would love if it was real, as I would finally have an explanation for my giza pyramids quandry. :)

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Hey Doc. That "giant" was already a proven hoax. However I would love if it was real, as I would finally have an explanation for my giza pyramids quandry. :)

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OK, well perhaps the Saudi pic was a hoax, or maybe it's real and that's just damage control propaganda. Let's write it off as a hoax anyway, to intentionally bias against the idea of giants for the sake of proper scientific skepticism. Let's also discount the fact that even religions with radically different ideologies still share references to the existence of giants, not to mention these assertions reiterated throughout mythology as well.

Let's just consider the best contemporary data at our disposal. There's a ton of real evidence of ancient giants, as well as recent giants. I think it's the simplest and most logical explanation for Giza.

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OK, well perhaps the Saudi pic was a hoax, or maybe it's real and that's just damage control propaganda. Let's write it off as a hoax anyway, to intentionally bias against the idea of giants for the sake of proper scientific skepticism. Let's also discount the fact that even religions with radically different ideologies still share references to the existence of giants, not to mention these assertions reiterated throughout mythology as well.

Let's just consider the best contemporary data at our disposal. There's a ton of real evidence of ancient giants, as well as recent giants. I think it's the simplest and most logical explanation for Giza.

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I am actually in some what of agreement with you here. I do not doubt at all that history is not like the books tell us, and I do believe there is strong evidence to support a much further advanced civilization that predates ancient sumer. In all honesty, if you look at the creation myths of many Mesoamerican, Egyptian, and Middle Eastern countries, they talk about an advanced island civilization that brought with them a tremendous knowledge.

Also, as science advances, we have learned a great deal about pole shifting as well as other catastrophe like circumstances, that would certainly wipe out a good portion of these advanced civilizations.

The Ancient Egyptians (which I love btw) are an enigma to me. In essence, they went predominantly from nomadic farmers to building large stone structures in the course of a few hundred years, which in terms of history is a blink of an eye.

Also, the Great Pyramid as well is another mystery. Hell, if I built it, I would have my name all over it, however, Khufu does not. In fact the only reference to him is ancient grafitti in the basement of the pyramid. Personally, I think a further advanced civilization built it, and he helped repair it during the old kingdom. The sheer number of stones and weight of the stones make it impossible for the Egyptians to have built it within the 20+ years they are thought to have taken to complete it.

Sorry....rant over
 
Pretty much, which is why I have yet to find a Christian willing to use concrete descriptors of his god.

I read a lot of spiritual books and "Conversation with God" by Neal Donald Walsch (book 1) has the best description of God I have come across. IMO.
And you are right, you will never get description of God from Christian because Bible offers non of that. Because people who wrote Bible, had no clue who God is either.
 
I am actually in some what of agreement with you here. I do not doubt at all that history is not like the books tell us, and I do believe there is strong evidence to support a much further advanced civilization that predates ancient sumer. In all honesty, if you look at the creation myths of many Mesoamerican, Egyptian, and Middle Eastern countries, they talk about an advanced island civilization that brought with them a tremendous knowledge.

Also, as science advances, we have learned a great deal about pole shifting as well as other catastrophe like circumstances, that would certainly wipe out a good portion of these advanced civilizations.

The Ancient Egyptians (which I love btw) are an enigma to me. In essence, they went predominantly from nomadic farmers to building large stone structures in the course of a few hundred years, which in terms of history is a blink of an eye.

Also, the Great Pyramid as well is another mystery. Hell, if I built it, I would have my name all over it, however, Khufu does not. In fact the only reference to him is ancient grafitti in the basement of the pyramid. Personally, I think a further advanced civilization built it, and he helped repair it during the old kingdom. The sheer number of stones and weight of the stones make it impossible for the Egyptians to have built it within the 20+ years they are thought to have taken to complete it.

Sorry....rant over

No, don't apologize Reaper, that's a good rant! (lol) I too find the Ancient Egyptians fascinating. Did you know that it appears as though they had electric lightbulbs? No soot deposits on the ceilings from torches, plus pictos of devices with wire networks running out of them. You seen the Baghdad battery they found? Hieros of planes, saucers, helicopters, DNA strands, technological devices, you name it! The complete solar configuration, with planets we are not even aware of now. I have also heard theories that the pyramids were bunkers, places to escape the predictable, cyclic catastrophes like pole shifts. Yeah, the Egyptians were on to something alright. Kinda like we've advanced over the last 100 years, exponential growth with no overt explanation, hmmmm. This is highly suggestive of some kind of revolutionary intervention, and every ancient culture on earth (India, China, American Indians, even back to the Sumerians and before) make this exact claim of godly intervention in the form of technological training and genetic manipulation. It jibes well with the Biblical account of Nephilium. The Bible says these were hybridized humans (the men of renown, giants of old) spawned from women and "fallen angels". I think it's borderline absurd not to seriously consider it, especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Those pyramids came from somewhere.
 
No, don't apologize Reaper, that's a good rant! (lol) I too find the Ancient Egyptians fascinating. Did you know that it appears as though they had electric lightbulbs? No soot deposits on the ceilings from torches, plus pictos of devices with wire networks running out of them. You seen the Baghdad battery they found? Hieros of planes, saucers, helicopters, DNA strands, technological devices, you name it! The complete solar configuration, with planets we are not even aware of now. I have also heard theories that the pyramids were bunkers, places to escape the predictable, cyclic catastrophes like pole shifts. Yeah, the Egyptians were on to something alright. Kinda like we've advanced over the last 100 years, exponential growth with no overt explanation, hmmmm. This is highly suggestive of some kind of revolutionary intervention, and every ancient culture on earth (India, China, American Indians, even back to the Sumerians and before) make this exact claim of godly intervention in the form of technological training and genetic manipulation. It jibes well with the Biblical account of Nephilium. The Bible says these were hybridized humans (the men of renown, giants of old) spawned from women and "fallen angels". I think it's borderline absurd not to seriously consider it, especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Those pyramids came from somewhere.


It is very interesting, as a matter of fact, when you look at the low relief sculptures of the Sumerians there is a knowledge of the solar system that we didnt have until the last century. It is funny how their "gods" came from flying ships from the sky. Hell, mathematically it makes sense that there would be other life forms in all of the countless universes out there.

regarding the Egyptians, you might find it interesting about Napoleon's night in the King's chamber. When Nap. made it to Egypt (and thankfully he did, as that is how we understand heiros now) he spent a night alone in the kings chamber, and came out the next morning visibly shaken. WHen asked about it, he was quoted as saying no one would believe him. I cannot imagine what he must have seen considering he had seen so much horror on the battlefield, it must have been terribly frightening.

Also, when you look a tthe results of the testing done under the sphinx and its right paw, and the fact that there is an open cavern under it. Kinda crazy.
 
... Also, when you look a tthe results of the testing done under the sphinx and its right paw, and the fact that there is an open cavern under it. Kinda crazy.

Indeed! I have read advanced speculation that this is where the Pillars of Knowledge were stashed. In the Biblical depiction, this was forbidden fruit. Stuff like the secrets of DNA (eternal life, trans species) and advanced scientific information regarding manipulation of powerful universal forces (time travel, free energy, etc.) Things mankind was not mature enough to receive yet, but was provided by the 'fallen watchers'. Man agreed to worship them as gods, in exchange for this genetic knowledge and scientific power, but as a result man relinquished his God given blessing and earthly dominion. This was 'the falling' with greed and treachery as a result, and a short lifespan as the penalty. These pillars supposedly survived Cain and were recovered and the knowledge perpetuated by Ham (as noted in the oft misunderstood "naked" seen with Noah.) Very crazy stuff. Makes you wonder what amazing things could be out there, hiding in the vaults of secret societies and church sanctuaries, or under the paw of the Sphinx if it hasn't been covertly excavated already. :) If you decide to go Indiana Jones over there, let me know first Reaper! lol
 
A good buddy of mine and I are planning a trip to egypt prior to the whole 2012 thing. However the idea of how to evade security is one we are still working on, that is of course, working under the assumption that the Egyptian government and that pr!ck Hawass havent already taken and hidden what was already there

:aargh:
 
"Hey idiot...I told you address slavery as an overall concept encompassing all of its iterations...amd after hurling insults what did you do? yep...try to address it only in the context of hebrew slavery."

For one thing dsade, I addressed every point you wanted me to. I love that you call me an idiot, when I have to spoon feed you the answers to your questions. I stand by what you call insults as criticism of your methods of deduction and reasoning. If you don't take it as constructive that's up to you. I will once again prove your ignorance on the subject.

What you said;

"and you seem to misunderstand...are the moral rules set forth ONLY applicable to Jews living at that period of time?"

What I said/say;

"Gods "Moral codes" also only applied to his chosen people as the rest of the world marched to their own beat and did not follow him."
They followed their own beliefs so why would God try and guide them? The Mosaic covenant applied ONLY to Jews, while the law of the Christ was open to Gentile and Jew alike as the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah.

You again;

"I told you address slavery as an overall concept encompassing all of its iterations......try to address it only in the context of hebrew slavery."

God obviously did not approve of the way slavery was conducted within the nations as he did free the Jews from unjust slavery in Egypt. He also made rules on how it was to be conducted,these rules were much different then
the other nations present at the time, so it is important that I reiterate the difference.

"If you want me to find a verse that says slavery is wrong its not in there as are many specific things. Treating people unjustly,unfairly and unmercifully is however(Harsh slavery)."

If you believe that you as an imperfect human have a higher moral code than God, and are justified to judge a perfect being, so be it it is on your head.

"And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God"-Mr 10:17, 18

What you said;
At this poiNT I believe the readers of this thread have to assume you are being purposely deceptive because you are unable to justify the objection.

What I say/said;
How am I deceptive when I gave all the information you requested?The Bible does not mince words and neither do I.Be specific and if I have left ANYTHING out that you want to query me about, let me know and I will clarify it to an even greater extent if I am able.

"..somehow those women were NOT slaves in the classic definition?"


"When capturing other cities not devoted to destruction, the Israelites, unlike the pagan nations, were not allowed to rape the women. If they desired a captive woman for a wife, certain requirements had to be met first.— Nu 31:9-19, De 21:10-14."
Women were to be treated kindly whether they be Jew or foreigner.

I also gave examples of how slaves(especially women) in the "Classic" definition were treated by the other nations,compared to the way Jews treated slaves(both of of Jews and foreigners). There was one notable exception with foreign slaves which I also mentioned.

"Among the Israelites the status of the Hebrew slave differed from that of a slave who was a foreigner, alien resident, or settler. Whereas the non-Hebrew remained the property of the owner and could be passed on from father to son (Le 25:44-46)"
Foreign slaves that were captured were not released after seven years, they would have to wait until the Jubilee.They were still treated well and in comparison to death they fared well.

"You can sit there and assign meanings to obscure passages and claim "no, this is what they really meant" but that then brings the question of "how in the hell do you know what they are really saying"? Do you pretend to have direct access to the truth where so many others disagee?'

I know from RESEARCH into the Bible and the languages they were written in.I use the Bible(no doctrines from man),comparative reasoning from the scriptures and language study to come to the conclusions that I have. I do not use contextual bias but use the Bible and its verses as a whole.
Which obscure verses do you refer to?Do you know anyone which a mastery over the scriptures that can dispute anything I have written, from the scriptures? Most Bible scholars works that I have read agree with what I have to say, its in the doctrines of man that opinion varies.I believe you are the one ascribing meaning to certain texts,while I have posted many scriptures that tie together and show a cohesiveness. If you put forth the effort you will be rewarded with insight and knowledge,I am no one special, anyone has the ability to do this if they are honest hearted.

"and as a warning point to those who claim that their god is perfect, why would such a being offer as an essential guide a flawed, contradictory ambiguous and confusingly written text with full foreknowledge of the war and bloodshed and confusion it would cause?"

Where are the contradictions? How is it flawed? Can you prove this using the scriptures, as you have not even come close as yet?
“GO IN through the narrow gate,” Jesus said, “because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:13, 14) According to God’s Word, there are only two kinds of religion: one true, one false; one right, one wrong; one that leads to life, one that leads to destruction.
It may be hard to find that road but it is worthwhile.

The Bible says to “love your neighbor,” religious leaders throughout the world have zealously supported and promoted warfare.—Matthew 22:39.

“Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15) Just as many wicked men pretend to be good, Satan deceives people with ministers who appear to be righteous but whose works are wicked and whose fruitage is rotten.
The primary cause of wickedness, though, is Satan the Devil. He brought wickedness into the world. Jesus Christ called Satan “the wicked one” and “the ruler of the world,” or unrighteous human society. Mankind in general obeys Satan by heeding his urgings to ignore the good ways of God. (Matthew 6:13; John 14:30; 1 John 2:15-17) “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” says 1 John 5:19. In fact, Satan and his angels are “misleading the entire inhabited earth,” causing nothing but “woe.” (Revelation 12:9, 12) Thus, the major part of the blame for wickedness has to be placed squarely on Satan the Devil.

The Bible writer James puts part of the blame for wickedness on humans. He states: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (James 1:14, 15) Individuals may act according to their improper desires. Consider, too, man’s inherited sin. The power of sin can amplify wrong cravings and bring about very bad consequences. (Romans 7:21-23) Indeed, inherited sin has “ruled as king” over mankind, enslaving humans with wicked works that cause great suffering. (Romans 5:21) Moreover, wicked men can influence others to become corrupt.—Proverbs 1:10-16.

Revealing another cause of affliction or suffering, Ecclesiastes 9:11 states: “Time and unforeseen occurrence befall [us] all.” Jesus Christ spoke of a certain calamity involving 18 people who were killed when a tower fell on them. (Luke 13:4) They suffered because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Similar things happen today. For example, a brick may break loose from the top of a high building and strike a pedestrian. Is God to blame? No. It was an unplanned and unforeseen occurrence. The same may often be said when sickness invades a household or sudden death leaves behind orphans and widows.

Clearly, then, God is not responsible for wickedness; nor does he cause suffering. On the contrary, it is God’s purpose to eliminate wickedness and those who cause it. (Proverbs 2:22) In fact, he will do more than that. The Scriptures declare that God’s purpose through Christ is “to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) The present system of things—based on greed, hatred, and wicked deeds—will then be gone. God will even “wipe out every tear from [all] eyes,” thus bringing an end to suffering. (Revelation 21:4) But you may ask: ‘Why has God not already done this? Why has he allowed wickedness and suffering to continue until our day?’ A key to the answer is found in the Bible account of Adam and Eve.

The reason why God has permitted wickedness to exist until our day is related to events that happened early in human history. An incident that took place back then raised an important issue concerning the Creator himself—a question that could not be settled quickly or easily. Let us take a close look at what happened.

YHWH created the first man and woman perfect and placed them in Paradise. They were endowed with a gift that distinguished them from animals—the gift of free will. (Genesis 1:28; 2:15, 19) As free moral agents, Adam and Eve could use their intellect to choose to love, serve, and obey their Creator. Or they could select a course of independence from God and deliberately disobey him.

To give Adam and Eve an opportunity to demonstrate their love for him, the true God placed one restriction upon them. He commanded Adam: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17) To remain in God’s favor, to their own benefit and that of their future family, Adam and Eve would have to refrain from eating the fruit of that one particular tree. Would they?

The Bible tells us what happened. Using a serpent as his mouthpiece, Satan the Devil approached Eve and said: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” When Eve repeated God’s command, Satan said to her: “You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.” Consequently, the tree seemed so desirable to Eve that “she began taking of its fruit and eating it.” The account continues: “Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.” (Genesis 3:1-6) Both Adam and Eve thus misused their free will and sinned by disobeying God.

Do you see the seriousness of what transpired? The Devil contradicted what God had said to Adam. Satan’s words implied that Adam and Eve would not need Jehovah in order to decide what was good and what was bad for them. Satan’s challenge therefore brought into question the right and validity of God’s rulership over man. The all-important issue that Satan raised, then, was that of the rightfulness of God’s sovereignty. How did the true God answer the challenge?

God had the power to destroy the three rebels—Satan, Adam, and Eve. God was unquestionably stronger than they were. But Satan did not question God’s power. Instead, he questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. The issue affected all creatures having free will. They needed to see that the gift of free will must be used properly—within the bounds of physical, moral, and spiritual guidelines from God. Otherwise, harm results, just as surely as injury will occur when a man jumps off the roof of a tall building without regard for the law of gravity. (Galatians 6:7, 8) All intelligent creatures could benefit from observing for themselves the bad fruitage of choosing a course of independence from God. This required time.

The fact that it requires time to settle some issues can be illustrated this way: Suppose the father of one family challenges the father of another to a contest that will prove which man is stronger. That issue could be decided quickly. Strength could be measured by lifting rocks. The father who lifted the heaviest rock would be the stronger man. But suppose the challenge involved which father truly loves his sons and daughters and whether they love him in return. Or what if the challenge raises the question of which father manages his family in the best way? Neither a display of strength nor mere words would be adequate. Sufficient time would have to pass, careful observation would be required, and right conclusions would have to be drawn in order for the issue to be settled.

In order to prove your love for God you have to work for it. It is not easy. Christ mentioned that following him meant that we could be tortured or even die. The reward seems worth it though.
“I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’”—Rev. 21:1-4.
Micah 4:4 states: “They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble.”

There may be pain now, it will not be for long though according to the Bible,and it is definitely not God's fault that it is in the world today. The message in the Bible is simple but man in his greed corrupts it to his own means.
 
And Ronin...are we to assume that you in full agreement with Dr' D's mutant Dna making wholesale slaughter of thousands necessary? If not feel free to skin back a few pages and address the points brought up.

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No, I am not actually. Lets see what the Bible has to say about the Nephilim for starters.

(Neph′i‧lim) [Fellers; Those Who Cause [Others] to Fall Down].

This is a transliteration of the Hebrew word nephi‧lim′, plural in its three occurrences in the Bible. (Ge 6:4; Nu 13:33 [twice]) It evidently stems from the causative form of the Hebrew verb na‧phal′ (fall) as found, for example, in 2*Kings 3:19; 19:7.


"6 Now it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, 2*then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. 3*After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.”

4*The Neph′i‧lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

5*Consequently God saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6*And God felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. 7*So God said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, to moving animal and to flying creature of the heavens, because I do regret that I have made them.”

They were “Nephilim,” bullies, tyrants, who no doubt helped to make conditions worse. Their angelic fathers, knowing the construction of the human body and being able to materialize, were not creating life, but lived in these human bodies and, cohabiting with women, brought forth children. Their children, “mighty ones,” were therefore unauthorized hybrids. Although the reason for the destruction is laid out in the scripture quoted above.
 
Why would an omniscient, perfect being, living with complete foreknowledge, regret anything he does?
 
Pretty much, which is why I have yet to find a Christian willing to use concrete descriptors of his god. You ask for a simple description such as:

Hey, this is John. He's a male latino, 5'9" 195 pounds. He is a barber...etc

What does it mean to be “in God’s image”? Does it mean the first human looked like God in a physical sense? If so, it means that he or his descendants could have made a carved image that would look like him. But this was not possible. So Isaiah asked: “To whom can you people liken God, and what likeness can you put alongside him?” Jesus himself said: “No man has seen God at any time.” So again the question, What does it mean to be “in God’s image”?—Isa. 40:18; John 1:18.

People may see a boy and say, “He’s just like his father!” However, the boy may not look like his father. But he is like his father in other ways, such as disposition, personality, mechanical ability, musical talent, physical agility or moral qualities. Having attributes similar to his father’s, the boy is said to be like his father.

It is in this same sense that the first human pair were created in God’s likeness. They were given certain attributes possessed by God. This accounts for the tremendous gulf between man and the lower animals. These godly qualities equipped the man to exercise dominion over the animals. To both the man and the woman God said: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”—Gen. 1:28.


God is invisible to human eyes (Ex 33:20; Joh 1:18; 1Ti 1:17), and he is alive and exercises unsurpassed force throughout the universe. (2Co 3:3; Isa 40:25-31) Christ Jesus states: “God is a Spirit [Pneu′ma].” The apostle writes: “Now God is the Spirit.” (Joh 4:24; 2Co 3:17,*18) The temple built on Christ as foundation cornerstone is “a place for God to inhabit by spirit.”—Eph 2:22.

This does not mean that God is an impersonal, bodiless force like the wind. The Scriptures unmistakably testify to his personality; he also has location so that Christ could speak of ‘going to his Father,’ this in order that he might “appear before the person of God [literally, “face of God”] for us.”—Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24; compare 1Ki 8:43; Ps 11:4; 113:5,*6;


"However, since it is impossible to have true belief in something that you don't even have a clue what it is, it makes it nothing more than "i have faith that something is there"."


I listed what the bible deems as faith,please go back and read that post again.



God describes himself as “a jealous God.” You may wonder why, since the word “jealousy” has negative connotations. Of course, God’s dominant quality is love. (1*John 4:8) Any feelings of jealousy on his part must therefore be for mankind’s good. In fact, we shall see that God’s jealousy is vital to the peace and harmony of the universe.

The related Hebrew words for “jealousy” occur over 80 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Almost half of these references are to Jehovah God. “When applied to God,” explains G.*H.*Livingston, “the concept of jealousy does not carry the connotation of a warped emotion, but, rather, of an insistence on the singleness of worship of Jehovah.” (The Pentateuch in Its Cultural Environment) Thus, some translations sometimes renders the Hebrew noun “insistence on exclusive devotion.” (Ezekiel 5:13) Other appropriate renderings are “ardor” or “zeal.”—Psalm 79:5; Isaiah*9:7.

Man was created with the capacity to feel jealous, but mankind’s fall into sin has resulted in a distortion of jealousy. Nevertheless, human jealousy can be a force for good. It can move a person to protect a loved one from bad influences. Moreover, humans can properly show jealousy for Jehovah and his worship. (1*Kings 19:10) To convey the correct understanding of such jealousy for Jehovah, the Hebrew noun may be translated “toleration of no rivalry” toward him.—2*Kings 10:16.


You will get ramblings and avoidances. In the rare case that you do, once you point out how some qualities contradict or are impossible to hold simultaneously (god is perfect, god is jealous...well, jealousy is a fault which eliminates the possibility of perfection) then they retreat into "who are we to know or question god".

God describes himself as “a jealous God.” You may wonder why, since the word “jealousy” has negative connotations. Of course, God’s dominant quality is love. (1*John 4:8) Any feelings of jealousy on his part must therefore be for mankind’s good. In fact, we shall see that God’s jealousy is vital to the peace and harmony of the universe.

The related Hebrew words for “jealousy” occur over 80 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Almost half of these references are to YHWH God. “When applied to God,” explains G.*H.*Livingston, “the concept of jealousy does not carry the connotation of a warped emotion, but, rather, of an insistence on the singleness of worship of Jehovah.” (The Pentateuch in Its Cultural Environment) Thus, the New World Translation sometimes renders the Hebrew noun “insistence on exclusive devotion.” (Ezekiel 5:13) Other appropriate renderings are “ardor” or “zeal.”—Psalm 79:5; Isaiah*9:7.

Man was created with the capacity to feel jealous, but mankind’s fall into sin has resulted in a distortion of jealousy. Nevertheless, human jealousy can be a force for good. It can move a person to protect a loved one from bad influences. Moreover, humans can properly show jealousy for God and his worship. (1*Kings 19:10) To convey the correct understanding of such jealousy for Jehovah, the Hebrew noun may be translated “toleration of no rivalry” toward him.—2*Kings 10:16.


The most outstanding example of a man who showed jealousy for God’s pure worship was Jesus Christ. In the first year of his ministry, he saw greedy merchants operating in the courtyards of the temple. Visiting Jews may have needed the services of money changers to exchange their foreign currency for money that would be acceptable as temple tax. They also needed to buy animals and birds in order to offer the sacrifices required by God’s Law. Such business transactions should have been carried on outside the temple courtyards. Worse, the merchants were evidently taking undue advantage of the religious needs of their brothers by charging exorbitant prices. Consumed with jealousy for God’s pure worship, Jesus used a whip to drive out the sheep and the cattle. He also overturned the tables of the money changers, saying: “Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!” (John 2:14-16) Thus Jesus fulfilled the words of Psalm 69:9: “Sheer zeal [or, “jealousy,” Byington] for your house has eaten me up.”


Three years later Jesus again observed greedy merchants operating in God’s temple. Would he cleanse it a second time? His jealousy for God’s pure worship was just as strong then as it was when he started his ministry. He drove out both the sellers and the buyers. And he gave an even stronger reason for his actions, saying: “Is it not written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a cave of robbers.” (Mark 11:17) What an example of persistence in showing godly jealousy!
 
Why would an omniscient, perfect being, living with complete foreknowledge, regret anything he does?

VERY good question! Take the situation in the days of Noah. At that time the earth was filled with violence. The Bible reports: “God saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And God felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.”—Gen. 6:5, 6.

We are not to conclude from this that God felt that he had made a mistake in creating man. This could not be, for he pronounced all his creative works “very good,” measuring up to his standard of perfection. (Gen. 1:31) Rather, God regretted that humans had chosen to follow a course of disobedience. He regretted that they, with the exception of Noah and his immediate family, had become so corrupt that he was forced to take rightful action against them.

The same conclusion can be drawn regarding God’s selection of Saul as Israel’s first king. First Samuel 15:10, 11 states: “The word of God now came to Samuel, saying: ‘I do regret that I have caused Saul to reign as king.’” Why? “Because he has turned back from following me, and my words he has not carried out.” Note that God’s regret was not prompted by any feeling that the choice of Saul was wrong but resulted from that one’s failure to use his privilege in harmony with the divine will. It was Saul who, as a free moral agent, had changed, and this called for a change on God’s part.

Because Saul had opted for a course of disobedience, adverse judgment was rendered against him. That rightful judgment was not something that the Most High would later regret. The word of God through Samuel was: “God has ripped away the royal rule of Israel from off you today, and he will certainly give it to a fellowman of yours who is better than you. And, besides, the Excellency of Israel will not prove false, and He will not feel regrets.”—1*Sam. 15:28
 
VERY good question! Take the situation in the days of Noah. At that time the earth was filled with violence. The Bible reports: “God saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And God felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.”—Gen. 6:5, 6.

We are not to conclude from this that God felt that he had made a mistake in creating man. This could not be, for he pronounced all his creative works “very good,” measuring up to his standard of perfection. (Gen. 1:31) Rather, God regretted that humans had chosen to follow a course of disobedience. He regretted that they, with the exception of Noah and his immediate family, had become so corrupt that he was forced to take rightful action against them.

The same conclusion can be drawn regarding God’s selection of Saul as Israel’s first king. First Samuel 15:10, 11 states: “The word of God now came to Samuel, saying: ‘I do regret that I have caused Saul to reign as king.’” Why? “Because he has turned back from following me, and my words he has not carried out.” Note that God’s regret was not prompted by any feeling that the choice of Saul was wrong but resulted from that one’s failure to use his privilege in harmony with the divine will. It was Saul who, as a free moral agent, had changed, and this called for a change on God’s part.

Because Saul had opted for a course of disobedience, adverse judgment was rendered against him. That rightful judgment was not something that the Most High would later regret. The word of God through Samuel was: “God has ripped away the royal rule of Israel from off you today, and he will certainly give it to a fellowman of yours who is better than you. And, besides, the Excellency of Israel will not prove false, and He will not feel regrets.”—1*Sam. 15:28


So all of this apparently took god by surprise...what does that then do to the idea that god is omniscient?

/an omniscient being cannot be surprised by anything
 
So all of this apparently took god by surprise...what does that then do to the idea that god is omniscient?

/an omniscient being cannot be surprised by anything

A very deep subject dsade. One that I could go on about for a long while. I will try and be concise about it though.

The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present, but also regarding the future. For him not to foreknow all matters in their every detail would evidence imperfection, according to this concept.

But consider the implications of such a predestinarian view. This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Gen. 3:1-6; John 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and, hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future.

If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full force of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Gen. 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas. 3:14-18.

The argument that God’s not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is, in reality, an arbitrary view of perfection. Ultimately, God’s own will and good pleasure are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect, not human opinions or concepts.—2*Sam. 22:31; Isa. 46:10.

To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity. (1*Chron. 29:11, 12; Job 36:22; 37:23) Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence in any or in all cases. Clearly he has not done so, or, not merely would certain ancient cities and some nations have been destroyed, but the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment, as at the Flood and on other occasions. (Gen. 6:5-8; 19:23-25, 29) God’s exercise of his might is therefore not simply an unleashing of limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and tempered by his mercy, where merited.—Neh. 9:31; Ps. 78:38, 39.

Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: “What are you doing?” (Job 9:12; Isa. 45:9; Dan. 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow and foreordain, for “with God all things are possible.” (Matt. 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow and foreordain, for “everything that he delighted to do he has done.”—Ps. 115:3.
 
Why would an omniscient, perfect being, living with complete foreknowledge, regret anything he does?


amen.

bottom line to me: the world is full of all different types of evil and unjust things. our finite minds cannot understand why. we cannot understand God fully. thats where faith comes into play. faith is belief that is not based on proof.
 
amen.

bottom line to me: the world is full of all different types of evil and unjust things. our finite minds cannot understand why. we cannot understand God fully. thats where faith comes into play. faith is belief that is not based on proof.

Please go through all my posts, starting with the biblical view of faith. Your definition is not correct,according to the Bibles viewpoint. If you do believe in God,and the Bible, the answers are there. If you don't that is your own prerogative. Keep an open mind and compare all avenues though.

"Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes‧sa‧lo‧ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. 12*Therefore many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men"

"11 Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld"
 
Work has been flooding over me again so I won't be on the site very much in the next while. When I do have time I will try to answer any questions you have from the Bible. Its either feast or famine in my biz. :laugh:G'night all.
 
I am fully a believer.

Not to argue even further. But how am I wrong?
Hebrews 11:1, Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. no proof.
I'm not saying there is no proof of God. Not at all. If anything I am baffled by those who believe in Nothing. How you stand outside on a warm summer night, looking up at the stars in the universe and still say there is no creator seems to take more faith than to believe in something.
My point in that post was saying we cannot comprehend why this world is full of the evil that it is, but that God is not surprised by any of it. He alone knows yesterday, today and tomorrow.
 
I am fully a believer.

Not to argue even further. But how am I wrong?
Hebrews 11:1, Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. no proof.
I'm not saying there is no proof of God. Not at all. If anything I am baffled by those who believe in Nothing. How you stand outside on a warm summer night, looking up at the stars in the universe and still say there is no creator seems to take more faith than to believe in something.
My point in that post was saying we cannot comprehend why this world is full of the evil that it is, but that God is not surprised by any of it. He alone knows yesterday, today and tomorrow.
You are no more wrong than countless Buddhists, hindus, muslims, and the guy that thinks that the tooth fairy is real.

Then again, there is no evidence that you are more right, either.
 
You are no more wrong than countless Buddhists, hindus, muslims, and the guy that thinks that the tooth fairy is real.

Then again, there is no evidence that you are more right, either.

Are you actually conceding to agnosticism?! I think I'm gonna faint, need to.. sit... down. :p
 
this thread is fairly interesting, but there are a few problems as far as "winning" this arguement is concerned. The first being that we are discussing things that are not physical, or concrete. We cannot exactly touch spiritual things, and from an entirely non-biased point of view, people, including non-believers, are merely self appointed experts.

Also, we have two groups who are willing to die for their beliefs. The believers, myself included, are willing to put our immortal soul on the line that God exists and what we are taught in the Bible is correct. The non-believers are also willing to do the same, by saying either He doesnt exist, or the Bible is incorrect. Since neither group is going to open a door, and present God, or show that their is no God, we will all find out when we die. Speaking for myself, there is no proof whatsoever in this world that would make me deny my Lord, I dont care who says what or what I can see and feel, because as a believer I live by faith and not sight.

On the otherhand, many non-believers are also so grounded that any physical proof given would be in the same way blown off by them.

However, it is a good way to present the Gospel, or the non-believers point of view, to those whose minds have not been made up. Though anyone at anytime can come freely to the cross and prayer is made for ALL lost souls, I encourage those who may be unsure, whose mind may not be made up, to think in terms of eternity about the points in this thread.

If you doubt the compassion of Jesus, he prayed while being brutally killed, Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. This was not just for the people actually killing Him, and begging for His death. This is for all people, those already born and those to come, as our sins necesitated His death, and as we killed Him, He was forgiving us. And that us, is not some universal us, not some "for the good of the country we will lower taxes" us,that is us as individuals, as if He stepped in front of a bullet for you. As He knows us before we are ever formed in our mothers womb.
 
I think you are mistaken. This thread is supposed to be about the evaluation of god in scientific terms. To state that something is beyond physical, you are asserting a premise. Your premise itself now requires proof before it can be used in any further argument, as it is not apriori (self-evident).

A delusion ( look up the definition of delusion, which is clinging to a conclusion without or even in spite of evidence to the contrary) is a delusion, whether from a believer or nonbeliever - and those people are often beyond help anyway. But to those who would ignore evidence - especially conclusiv e physical evidence - they are not scientists.

Jesus, in your book, freely chose to suffer knowingfull well that he was the son of god + mind you even possibly had direct experience and communication to god in a tangible way. By choosing to bring himself thus, god makes the example completely meaningless, as we can suffer great deals when we know that it will be short lved and that there is a concrete reward waiting.

Had he been serious about being an example, he would have been born with no special powers of either miracle or insight and been forced to work his way fro ignorance nd doubt just like everyone else.

But in the end, it is the concept of faith and this prticular contradictory\impossible abstract of the standard defnitin of god that is put to reason - and it fails every time.

Sure, you can claim it is apart from reason, but you can never claim that it iIS reasonable.

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You are very right on a number of points, especially that I am no scientist, also that faith is not entirely reasonable, and that I have used this thread for my own purpose which is not to prove God, but to present the Gospel. Also, your statement about Jesus and suffering short term for long term rewards is correct and is open to anyone and all believers do share in that faith and expectation. I stand by my point that pure reason will not resolve the question of God, and in fact, the Bible supports that by stating that the wisdom of men is folly in the eyes of God. It also states that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit. Sure, you may find clues for and against, but you cannot seperate faith from God, or at least based on the Bible, which does not hold much water in the estimation of many. The Gospel of John is a first hand account, but it is biased because he was an Apostle, Acts, which was written by Luke, who also is the author of the Gospel of Luke is a first hand account of the early church, so Luke was also around the time of Jesus life. Yet, the question still arises, do you believe what was written by these men who were alive at the time of Jesus and who were around Him. We will believe the histories that were written during that time, yet we choose to believe what people today say about Jesus and not His contemporaries. I also know the arguement will be used that the writers had a reason to lie, or something to gain, but the arguement can also be said that they did not. Christians were persecuted by both the Romans and the Jews, so they actually had more to gain by keeping quiet.

Just points to ponder, I am not a know-it-all, and do not want to sound antagonistic, as that is definitely not what I want and in no way do I mean to disrespect Dsade, or anyone else in this thread. I am a simpleton and that may help me in the faith area, but I will never do well in a debate, nor in a show of knowledge or logic.
 
You are very right on a number of points, especially that I am no scientist, also that faith is not entirely reasonable, and that I have used this thread for my own purpose which is not to prove God, but to present the Gospel. Also, your statement about Jesus and suffering short term for long term rewards is correct and is open to anyone and all believers do share in that faith and expectation. I stand by my point that pure reason will not resolve the question of God, and in fact, the Bible supports that by stating that the wisdom of men is folly in the eyes of God. It also states that God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit. Sure, you may find clues for and against, but you cannot seperate faith from God, or at least based on the Bible, which does not hold much water in the estimation of many. The Gospel of John is a first hand account, but it is biased because he was an Apostle, Acts, which was written by Luke, who also is the author of the Gospel of Luke is a first hand account of the early church, so Luke was also around the time of Jesus life. Yet, the question still arises, do you believe what was written by these men who were alive at the time of Jesus and who were around Him. We will believe the histories that were written during that time, yet we choose to believe what people today say about Jesus and not His contemporaries. I also know the arguement will be used that the writers had a reason to lie, or something to gain, but the arguement can also be said that they did not. Christians were persecuted by both the Romans and the Jews, so they actually had more to gain by keeping quiet.

Just points to ponder, I am not a know-it-all, and do not want to sound antagonistic, as that is definitely not what I want and in no way do I mean to disrespect Dsade, or anyone else in this thread. I am a simpleton and that may help me in the faith area, but I will never do well in a debate, nor in a show of knowledge or logic.

Would you believe the histories written about that time, if they described something that violates all of the laws of nature - especially if they were written by a group of half-illiterate people? I mean, my uncle from rural Illinois claims to be the reincarnation of Napoleon and that he can fly. SHould he be believed, or does that even place a MORE restrictive burden of proof on HIM.

Example:

2000 years ago a man named Caesar ruled the Roman Empire. They builts road, aqueducts, and other civic improvements that you can still go and see/touch today. (by what mechanism? Oh...let's see - geometry, engineering, rudimentary physics, etc...nothing miraculous that cannot be duplicated today)

versus

There was a guy that lived named Jesus. He was magic. He healed all the sick people, restored eyesite, raised the dead, etc. (by what mechanism? Miracles...umm...ok, prove that anyone can violate the laws of physics. Oh, I just have to "believe you"? no thanks.)
 
actually Luke was a physician, so at least for that time he was not illiterate. Also, what does our understanding of how something happened have to do with its occurrence or not? If I did not believe things that I did not understand, I would seem even more odd than I already am. But I do understand your point (I greatly oversimplified to make a point), in that some events appear to be "normal", while others do not. But understanding has nothing to do with occurrence, though it may influence belief in the occurrence. And the aruguement can be made that many different "ancient" sources tell about the Roman empire, we have archeology, etc., while only the Bible talks about the life of Jesus, but there were Roman historians at that time that do make mention of Jesus, the miracles and the uproar caused in Jerusalem. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of the historian, maybe Pliny the Elder?, I do not know why that name came up, so it is probably incorrect. Since I cannot site it properly it is probably of not much use, but I did want to bring the point up that other ancient texts do make mention of Jesus, and do make reference to His resurrection, even, although not first hand accounts, only by rumor.
 
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