Protein-35grm? 45grm? 50grm????

Jessep76

Jessep76

Well-known member
My friend told me that anything over 40grams is a waste of money and is sorta like the ads that tell you to pre load creatine with 10 grams... just a way to scam you out of more money.
Anybody know?

I've noticed that they have these convenient 'dildo' shaped protein shooters that you can carry in your pocket for immediate protein intake that contain 50grams. And the iso pure drinks have either 40-50 grams as well.
What is the most protein your body will use and how much is wasted, if any?
 
I've read that for whey protein, you can only absorb about 25 grams in the time window it takes to digest. but a slower digest protein up to 50 grams. (casein)
 
i guess it depends what your doing (bulking cutting). just do 1g per pound spread out evenly 6 times a day and you'll be fine. once you start hitting 2g per pound "i" feel the body will start converting it to fat and store it in the adipose tissue.

there are many people outside the fitness world that will argue you do not need more than 1g per kilogram body weight. personally i think thats BS and ive made plenty of arguments with my professors/teachers on this.
 
I usually intake about 30-40 grams per meal which i have 6 meals a day so it spreads it out and your body absorbs it better
 
40-50gram of protein from WPI is a waste but a mix of fast and slow proetin blend than that is ok but no more than 50g
 
ryaroberts said:
i guess it depends what your doing (bulking cutting). just do 1g per pound spread out evenly 6 times a day and you'll be fine. once you start hitting 2g per pound "i" feel the body will start converting it to fat and store it in the adipose tissue.

there are many people outside the fitness world that will argue you do not need more than 1g per kilogram body weight. personally i think thats BS and ive made plenty of arguments with my professors/teachers on this.
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Well I'm 6' 208lbs and I'm working all muscles 3 times a week M.W.F and rotating super sets with 5x5s, so its a lot and I feel it come the end of the week. I'm trying to bulk. I take maybe 2-3 shakes a day with one scoop=28-30grams. So maybe I'm getting 140-180 grams of protein. I know I could be going all the way to 208 grams a day but my budget won't let me use a whole lot more powder. But right after the gym and in the mornings should I consume 30 grams in that one setting or 50 grams? Or in between?
 
gymrat8807 said:
I usually intake about 30-40 grams per meal which i have 6 meals a day so it spreads it out and your body absorbs it better
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Ok cool thats about what I was thinking. Would you know off hand what a regular size chicken breast runs in grams of protein. I need to get serious and consider all the sources I'm consuming and for dinner thats exactly what I had.
Also is your 30-40 about right for bulking?

Thanks for the info (everyone!):biglaugh:
 
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I'm sure at times the body is perfectly capable of absorbing 100 grams an hour. However I don't see that being the case for most of the day. Also, saying it could absorb 100 grams an hour is in no way suggesting you should eat 100 grams EVERY hour ...

What we do know is that based on a 2000 calorie diet, our ancestors consumed 200 to 250 grams of protein a day, mostly from meat. That's 40-50% of their diet. Man has only been around 8 to 10.000 years, evolution has not changed our metabolism significantly in that time-frame, which suggests that consuming at least 250 grams per day, and depending on caloric intake, more protein per day (40-50%) is not life-threatening, but instead considerably healthier than the current western diet. On top of that we ate more unsaturated fats (which suggests part of that protein came from fish or plants instead of from potatoe chips and anything deep fried ) and took in roughly more than 10 times the amount of Vitamin C (so supplementing 400 mg on the day is not a bad thing). So far our sedentary lifestyle and adapted diet has given us little more than increase cardiovascular problems and obesity. So I think in retrospect these myths about kidney problems seem rather mild.
 
Here is another really good article (Q/A style) from Layne Norton.

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i would say that it also depends on your bodyweight and how long you have been dieting. If someone who changes there diet to more bodybuilding diet it will def shock the body: we all know what to much protein can do to the bathroom... but just start at 35 grams a meal and work up if you need it
 
Can anyone recommend a fast and slow proetin blend?

And is this something appropriate for right after a workout?
 
carpee said:
I've read that for whey protein, you can only absorb about 25 grams in the time window it takes to digest. but a slower digest protein up to 50 grams. (casein)
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There is a study which looks at casein and post-workout specifically, with recommendations for no more than 20g. I started a discussion here: Invalid Link Removed
 
Jessep76 said:
Can anyone recommend a fast and slow proetin blend?

And is this something appropriate for right after a workout?
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whey and milk but don't forget your carbs.

Most protein powders on the market have too much protein and not enough carbs. Then you have weight gainers that have too much fat. Someone needs to come out with a blend that has about 10-20grams of whey protein, 60-80 grams of mixed complex carbs and simple sugars. That would be ideal.

I use ON's oats and whey. It's about a 1-1 ratio but it does the trick for me. I usually have a fruit or 2 with it as well.
 
Universal Rep said:
Define "waste". It could mean a lotta things...
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Waste for protein as in you are using only 60% of the powder you consume in one setting and expelling the rest.
Waste for creatine as in pre loading where you double the amount as advised by the company manufacturer with the hopes that you come back to buy more of their product in less time.
 
Jessep76 said:
Ok cool thats about what I was thinking. Would you know off hand what a regular size chicken breast runs in grams of protein. I need to get serious and consider all the sources I'm consuming and for dinner thats exactly what I had.
Also is your 30-40 about right for bulking?

Thanks for the info (everyone!):biglaugh:
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Chicken breast anywhere from 40 to 70 depending on size and such. Ones from a butcher direct are usually higher. thats what i do
 
I'm in the process of getting Matrix 2 Protein. It looked inexpensive and includes more than one type of protein. Might be good for fast and slow.
INGREDIENTS: Ultrafiltered and undenatured Whey Protein Concentrate, Ultrafiltered and undenatured Milk Protein Concentrate (including Micellar Casein), Undenatured Egg Albumin, Hydrolyzed Wheat Gluten (including Glutamine Peptides), natural and artificial flavors, lecithin, sodium chloride, aspartame, acesulfame-K.
 
Jessep76 said:
Waste for protein as in you are using only 60% of the powder you consume in one setting and expelling the rest.
Waste for creatine as in pre loading where you double the amount as advised by the company manufacturer with the hopes that you come back to buy more of their product in less time.
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Define "using". I'm not tryin' to be difficult... For example, you take protein, in general, for calories, but you can also take protein, specifically, to spike the anabolic drive via protein syntheis/reduction of catabolism. So for me, the question is about what you're lookin' to do. PWO, for example, according to the study in the link I cited, beyond 20g, the protein will be oxidized. Therefor, if you take 50g, 30 of it might be "wasted" in this specific way. Still, if you're on a bulk, that 50g won't be wasted, cuz you're still get the cals from that 50g. See what I mean? Context is everything.

As for creatine, I always suggest 2-3g, daily.
 
Universal Rep said:
Define "using". I'm not tryin' to be difficult... For example, you take protein, in general, for calories, but you can also take protein, specifically, to spike the anabolic drive via protein syntheis/reduction of catabolism. So for me, the question is about what you're lookin' to do. PWO, for example, according to the study in the link I cited, beyond 20g, the protein will be oxidized. Therefor, if you take 50g, 30 of it might be "wasted" in this specific way. Still, if you're on a bulk, that 50g won't be wasted, cuz you're still get the cals from that 50g. See what I mean? Context is everything.

As for creatine, I always suggest 2-3g, daily.
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Ah understood. I like the idea that its used in some fashion. I will however cut back just for the fact that I need the powder more for the synthesis and it gets pricey.
So 2-3 as apposed to 5g of creatine?
 
Jessep76 said:
Ah understood. I like the idea that its used in some fashion. I will however cut back just for the fact that I need the powder more for the synthesis and it gets pricey.
So 2-3 as apposed to 5g of creatine?
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It can be difficult during discussions when people are speakin' generally. Which is why I try to ask questions as to specificity. Excess protein could get oxidized, thus rendering the incremental protein's ability to enhance protein synthesis as null and void. Still, you'd get cals from it, which would be a plus on a bulk.

It really comes down to usin' the right tool for the job. Pre-, intra-, and post-workout, there are several great studies which show that ffAAs, esp. EAAs, are more beneficial than intact proteins or protein powders. The drawback is that these supps are more expensive.

Regarding the Cr, I think most take too much, based on the idea that more is better. The studies I read suggest 2-3g a day is all ya need. Keep in mind your body is makin' creatine and you're getting creatine in your diet--more if you follow a typical bodybuilder's diet of fish and beef.
 
Universal Rep said:
It can be difficult during discussions when people are speakin' generally. Which is why I try to ask questions as to specificity. Excess protein could get oxidized, thus rendering the incremental protein's ability to enhance protein synthesis as null and void. Still, you'd get cals from it, which would be a plus on a bulk.

It really comes down to usin' the right tool for the job. Pre-, intra-, and post-workout, there are several great studies which show that ffAAs, esp. EAAs, are more beneficial than intact proteins or protein powders. The drawback is that these supps are more expensive.

Regarding the Cr, I think most take too much, based on the idea that more is better. The studies I read suggest 2-3g a day is all ya need. Keep in mind your body is makin' creatine and you're getting creatine in your diet--more if you follow a typical bodybuilder's diet of fish and beef.
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EAAs?

The creatine theory makes sense. I don't take into account all the steaks I eat.
 
Jessep76 said:
Waste for protein as in you are using only 60% of the powder you consume in one setting and expelling the rest.
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You are always "expelling" protein, you retain very little as new muscle tissue, maybe a few grams a day at most. However, when you increase your intake there is an immediate boost in retention that tapers off with time. Here is a personal observation (not mine, but the bold emphasis is):

....let me give you some real world results.

I can introduce you to dozens of my clients over the years who are all natural and upped their protein intake considerably and got amazing results. I will however provide you with my latest success story.

My client came to me as a new client 6 months ago. Basically he had trained for about 6 years starting at age 18. He had definetly made progress but nothing super significant. He came to me at 190lbs with 12% bodyfat with some pretty decent strength. His basic diet breakdown at this point was 250grams of protein, 250grams of carbs and about 90grams of fat each day. In the 2 years prior he had only improved by about 6 lbs.

My first thing I did with him was up his protein intake to 350grams immediately but I lowered his carb intake. I didn't want to change his calories at all at first. I wanted him to see what higher protein would do for his body. After just 3 weeks he was up 193lbs with the same bodyfat.

Now at the end of the first month I took him to a new level. His new diet would consist of 450g protein, carbs would remain at the new 150g level, and fat would increase to an average of 125g a day mostly from healthy EFA's. At the end of the third month having been at this macronutrient protocol for 2 months his stats were 205lbs with 11% bodyfat. Let me remind you that no steroids or ph's were used and neither were any thermogenic fat burners.

So now was the time for one more boost but he wanted to lean out big time and still gain muscle. So I put him on 550g protein, 150g carbs and raised the fat intake just slightly to 140g on average. After 3 months at this protocol along with a consistent high intensity training program he absolutely exploded with size. He ended that 3 month period weighing 224lbs with 9% bodyfat.

Now that is a gain of 34lbs in just 6months with a loss of bodyfat of 3%. His strength increased dramatically on all excercises. We are going to keep him at this protocol for another 3 months before we change it. I don't expect the same degree of change in the coming 3 months. I find that when I introduce this program to people of upping the protein, they have an initial anabolic response that is incredible but then it tapers off and it is about a slow build at that point. So our new goal is at the end of the next 3 months to have him at 230lbs or more with a bodyfat percentage to remain below 10% at all times and to make this a new easy to manage constant for the future. I want him to be able to enjoy this new physique for as long as he wishes to creating a simple yet effective program is what myself and my fellow trainers I work with are all about.

Bottom line is protein is the foundation for all muscle growth. Everything else is secondary. Oh and on top of all that with all my clients at least 60-70% of their nutrition comes from quality shakes. By quality I don't mean some 100% whey mixed in milk. While that is ok if you are broke it isn't going to give you the edge you need. For maximum results stick with quality products like these:

Dorian Yates Pro Peptide
Sann Infusion
Beverly Nutrition proteins
Syntrax Isomatrix
Protein Customizer
and there are a few others.

Don't dismiss the power of high protein diets. In fact you elude to high protein diets only being good for steroid users but my experience over the last 15years or so says otherwise. While steroid users of course need high protein so do natural athletes as well. Of course everyone is different but don't judge it until you have given it a try and done it properly.

If you want any advice on ideas at all just email me or PM me.
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The bolded part is pure gold. Especially the second sentence. He wanted to have his client maintain that weight and condition for a while so that it is easier to keep it in the future. That's the opposite of what most do: bulking [and getting fat] then cutting that extra fat, along with which goes a lot of muscle because it's been yours for a very short period and it requires time and calories to "solidify" or "become permanent" to keep and enjoy.
 
I find 30 to 40 grams of a whey casien blend to be excellent. I have used 100% whey alone and for me it's not as good.

I know I am gonna get flammed for this but I personally love Muscle Milk and not because of the taste. The pumps, energy, and muscle repair of this protein is incredible....for me it does everything as advertised.

Lucky.
 
Milk is good. It's up there with whey on the amino acid score. 80% casein 20% whey I believe. I take in about 20g-30g of whey PWO, but I drink milk all throughout the day.
 
machinehead said:
You are always "expelling" protein, you retain very little as new muscle tissue, maybe a few grams a day at most. However, when you increase your intake there is an immediate boost in retention that tapers off with time. Here is a personal observation (not mine, but the bold emphasis is):



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The bolded part is pure gold. Especially the second sentence. He wanted to have his client maintain that weight and condition for a while so that it is easier to keep it in the future. That's the opposite of what most do: bulking [and getting fat] then cutting that extra fat, along with which goes a lot of muscle because it's been yours for a very short period and it requires time and calories to "solidify" or "become permanent" to keep and enjoy.
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I think it's lame how Yates dismissed the 140g fats as basically insubstantial and credited the gains mostly to protein. That much fat will make you grow like mad with adequate protein intake.
 
carpee said:
I've read that for whey protein, you can only absorb about 25 grams in the time window it takes to digest. but a slower digest protein up to 50 grams. (casein)
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yep, basically true, whey can be used at a higher rate than casein (whey 8-10g worth used an hour vs casein only 6-8) but only stays in bloodstream 3ish hours, while casein can stay in 8. so 48-65g of whey in one sitting is quite doable and reasonable. For whey anything more than 30g is likely used in place of carbs rather than for amino acids.

now with all of this it is empty stomach with nothing else in the shake. So add anything and who knows. Also not particularly wanting to start this fight here, but anything you read about PWO drinks and the "anabolic window" is mostly fiction and broscience. Its largely based on one particular study that showed that on an overnite fasted first thing in the morning workout that people given 10g of protein plus 30g simple after workout retained more protein than the people just given 10g protein. PWO shakes and the rush to make it in time for that anabolic window is a just a sales technique (again, unless you work out first thing in the morning fasted, then it has some value). If you work out later in the day, having 30-50g of casein an hour before your workout is more valuable than any of the PWO shake mixes that i've seen.
 
Chubbinmuffin said:
Milk is good. It's up there with whey on the amino acid score. 80% casein 20% whey I believe. I take in about 20g-30g of whey PWO, but I drink milk all throughout the day.
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yeah, you got the ratios right. i just finished ordering some a custom protein blend from TP: 60/40 milk protein isolate & whey protein isolate cold-filtration.

good stuff. especially pwo:)
 
EasyEJL said:
now with all of this it is empty stomach with nothing else in the shake. So add anything and who knows. Also not particularly wanting to start this fight here, but anything you read about PWO drinks and the "anabolic window" is mostly fiction and broscience. Its largely based on one particular study that showed that on an overnite fasted first thing in the morning workout that people given 10g of protein plus 30g simple after workout retained more protein than the people just given 10g protein. PWO shakes and the rush to make it in time for that anabolic window is a just a sales technique (again, unless you work out first thing in the morning fasted, then it has some value). If you work out later in the day, having 30-50g of casein an hour before your workout is more valuable than any of the PWO shake mixes that i've seen.
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Yep, it's more of a 24-hour window that doesn't magically close. And now we have preworkout, peri-workout, post-workout protein/amino acids drinks as if you are not absorbing what you ate a few hours ago (again assuming it's not first thing in the morning). What's next, they'll come up with 5 phases of an workout and come up with a product for each?

I have to give it hydrolyzed whey for post workout though, it does work way better than simple whey in eliminating soreness with just a third of the amount. Effectively, it does help performance but it doesn't speed up muscle gain to any appreciable degree.
 
yeah, perceived physical recovery is definitely different than muscle gain :) my preference post workout is moderate protein + fat, minimal carbs, particularly in conjunction with 3mg melatonin PREworkout. sounds crazy, but you get a significant GH boost from that (really noticeable on leg day) and by avoiding carbs post workout the GH surge lasts longer.
 
MrBrightside said:
I think it's lame how Yates dismissed the 140g fats as basically insubstantial and credited the gains mostly to protein. That much fat will make you grow like mad with adequate protein intake.
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I was thinking the same thing when reading that. Can't remember where I read it, but supposedly, you need one and a half times the amount of fat in order to synthesize protein.
 
MrBrightside said:
I think it's lame how Yates dismissed the 140g fats as basically insubstantial and credited the gains mostly to protein. That much fat will make you grow like mad with adequate protein intake.
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Agreed. thats over 1000 calories from fats alone...and most of the day when the body is sedentary, the body uses Fats as fuel anyway.
 
Again at the risk of getting flamed I just wanted to say my last 2 workouts I returned back to using Muscle Milk (combo of whey, casein, milk protein, fats etc) after using 100% Whey for the longest time.

I can truly say I love working out again. I don't know what it is but this stuff gives me tons of energy for my workouts, and incredible pump and I suffer next to nothing in DOS. I use 30-45 grams in my shaker out of the trunk of my car, add water once in the gym, and drink throughout my workouts instead of just water. My workouts are exciting again. Yesterday, I was working bi's and tri's and did not want to stop...was loving the energy & pump so much.

I always felt that a whey-casein-glutamine combo was much better than straight whey and used to get flamed for posting it. I ordered many such combos from TP in the past however nothing seems to compair to the mainstream Muscle Milk.

Lucky:grouphug:
 
luclyluciano said:
Again at the risk of getting flamed I just wanted to say my last 2 workouts I returned back to using Muscle Milk (combo of whey, casein, milk protein, fats etc) after using 100% Whey for the longest time.

I can truly say I love working out again. I don't know what it is but this stuff gives me tons of energy for my workouts, and incredible pump and I suffer next to nothing in DOS. I use 30-45 grams in my shaker out of the trunk of my car, add water once in the gym, and drink throughout my workouts instead of just water. My workouts are exciting again. Yesterday, I was working bi's and tri's and did not want to stop...was loving the energy & pump so much.

I always felt that a whey-casein-glutamine combo was much better than straight whey and used to get flamed for posting it. I ordered many such combos from TP in the past however nothing seems to compair to the mainstream Muscle Milk.

Lucky:grouphug:
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So you slowly consume a whey/casein shake during the workout?
What amount (per gram) if any do you drink right after you've left the gym?
 
Jessep76 said:
So you slowly consume a whey/casein shake during the workout?
What amount (per gram) if any do you drink right after you've left the gym?
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I slowly sip my PRO + CHO during the workout (starting the sipping before though). In the big picture, whey or casein or a combo is fine, though utilizin' ffAAs and/or WPH may have their benefits as to speed. As for post-workout (and keep in mind this is a blanket, general statement and ya need to take pre- and intra-), according to the ISSN, a minimum of 20g PRO + 50g CHO. This is merely a rule of thumb.
 
marco wolf said:
I was thinking the same thing when reading that. Can't remember where I read it, but supposedly, you need one and a half times the amount of fat in order to synthesize protein.
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One and a half times the amount of protein, you mean (not bodyweight)? That's huge either way.
 
Jessep76 said:
So you slowly consume a whey/casein shake during the workout?
What amount (per gram) if any do you drink right after you've left the gym?
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I just use 1 1/2 scoops of MM added to water. I sip it during my workout but once I start to sweat I pretty much down it & then just drink water from there. I don't take any post workout. I figure that is the job of the casein....to slowly digest itself releasing aminos for the next few hours.

I like MM because it has fats & carbs to be burn during the workout for energy and glutamine to help repair after. I hardly suffer any significant DOS (delayed onset sorenss) when using.

Lucky
 
for me protein is more about calorie intake I use whey 2 scoops (48 grams) pre and post workout I workout in the morning so the pre WO is my breakfast which would seem since your body has been fasting all night that it would utilize all the calories you consume and since they whey is in liquid form wouldnt you digest it in like 20 min anyway I dunno just my .02
 
MrBrightside said:
One and a half times the amount of protein, you mean (not bodyweight)? That's huge either way.
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I didn't word it very well, did I. You don't have to eat that much fat, but it will limit the amount of protein that is actually usable.

Fats stabilize proteins and amino acids so that they can perform their functions within the cells.

When these important saturated fatty acids are not readily available, certain growth factors in the cells and organs will not be properly aligned. This is because the various receptors, such as G-protein receptors, need to be coupled with lipids in order to provide localization of function.
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Cinn said:
There is no absolute set amount that applies to everyone in every situation. Anyone that tells you different is wrong.
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I'm starting to get that picture. I've now gotten a couple bottles, one sustained release for mornings and before bed and one isolate for just after my workout. I'm also getting a meal in within 40-50 minutes after the workout with lots of protein and a good amount of fat. So I think I've taken a decent amount of info from eveyone on this page...
 
Probably the most valuable lesson i've ever directly heard a pro giving was from Hugo Rivera. When he's talking about how he started, he says that the critical thing is to set up your plan for at least 30 days, and follow it religiously for 30 days (can go 60 if you like) then change your plan and follow it religiously, etc. eventually you will find what really works best for you, both physically as well as fitting into your lifestyle.
 
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