Testing Toremifene against tamoxifene
- Thread starter monsterbox
- Start date
monsterbox
Well-known member
day 2 65-75mg worth
No sides...nothing...don't even know its in me. It should be working by now right?
No sides...nothing...don't even know its in me. It should be working by now right?
GMG760
Well-known member
You are looking in the wrong place if you are paying that kind of prices. It should be about 50% more than Nolva or Clomid from my research.
monsterbox
Well-known member
my nuts generally feel bigger when the sack is tight from being cold...like right when you get in the shower. And when its hot and you get that saggy bat wing sack, my left nut always seems smaller than my right by a noticable amount.
Let me tell you, i've been checking them all day and both nuts feel alot fuller then usual in the saggy sack state.....just all around plumper as if pumped up. I like it! And for the record, I felt my nuts all the time on nolva and they never felt full at any point in time until at least 2 week after nolva on their own, slowly.
This is actually a bit concerning though...does this mean I was still shut down, or the boys are just getting bigger for show because my test is overshooting right now?
Let me tell you, i've been checking them all day and both nuts feel alot fuller then usual in the saggy sack state.....just all around plumper as if pumped up. I like it! And for the record, I felt my nuts all the time on nolva and they never felt full at any point in time until at least 2 week after nolva on their own, slowly.
This is actually a bit concerning though...does this mean I was still shut down, or the boys are just getting bigger for show because my test is overshooting right now?
crazyfool405
Banned
gelin
New member
Dang. I picked some up a week ago for $27 (1800 mg.... 30 ml @ 60 mg/ml).
ed - just checked back and the price is in the mid-40's now so I guess I got lucky for once.
Last edited:
WeightShift
Member
:icon_lol:
monsterbox
Well-known member
still fuller. libido is good. GF is out of town so I can't test refractory
crazyfool405
Banned
so this is a better option for you then nolva obviously, it didnt kill it like nolva did?
monsterbox
Well-known member
so far no, i've taken my third dose now of 60+ mg. No sides at all.
crazyfool405
Banned
monsterbox
Well-known member
Final Review
Toremifene dosed at 75,60,60 for 3 days.
-increase in libido
-decrease in refractory time
-more dreams of sex
-increased nut fullness
-better sleep (do not know if this is related)
Pharm grade tamoxifene citrate made me feel depressed, killed libido, and caused bloating.
Maybe I should put myself through 3 days of tamox to prove this entirely
Toremifene dosed at 75,60,60 for 3 days.
-increase in libido
-decrease in refractory time
-more dreams of sex
-increased nut fullness
-better sleep (do not know if this is related)
Pharm grade tamoxifene citrate made me feel depressed, killed libido, and caused bloating.
Maybe I should put myself through 3 days of tamox to prove this entirely
thegodfather
Well-known member
Sounds like great progress so far. I'm 3 days into my Nolva PCT and so far no real sides to speak of. My nuts had a dull ache briefly earlier in the day, but I'm pawning that off to be the "jumpstart" taking place down there. Libido is still good, but not like it was last week. Should be able to keep all my gains off this cycle. Monster, this is pretty cool that we started PCT on the same day and ran almost the same cycle. Kind of compare how things are going.
WeightShift
Member
Good to hear, fellas. Everybody needs to hear hands on experience.
monsterbox
Well-known member
glad you are recovering man!
sry but you are mistaken. Im not in a PCT. I just decided to run toremifene solo for 3 days to asses side effects before I use it as a future PCT. My latest cycle was completed like 70 something days back.
GMG760
Well-known member
I know I am a few days late, but I decided to use Torem instead of tamox for the last two weeks of my current pct, and I have to say, that it is soooo much better than tamox by leaps and bounds. I will never use a Serm other than torem anymore.
crazyfool405
Banned
GMG760
Well-known member
Um, I haven't tried ralox. As far as clomid/nolva goes, nolva kills my libido, works fine. Clomid works fine, but my libido actually rises on torem, and my nuts seem to bounce back in just a few days... noticeably faster than clomid.
crazyfool405
Banned
awesome!!! we just need many more studies on it to make it the official PCT, like IGF1 levels while taking it, prolactin/ receptor upregulations, and more work on hypogonadal men, as well as interactions with AIs., or if its a pure ERa antagonist, or mixed agonist/antagonists. and its effect on the ERb.
this is the reason why ive shunned it soo far. because i dont know much about it except that its chlorotamoxifen.
crazyfool405
Banned
monsterbox
Well-known member
well I have about 1600mg left for my upcoming cycle...this is enough for
120,120,120,90,90,90/90/60/few days of 30
So its not that much...I can dose it well for 3 good weeks.
Is this enough for my PCT w/ 6 week phera/havoc bridge?
PCT:
3 weeks of SERM
Starting Reversitol in week 3 at 3/2/2/1
Bulk Powerfull
120,120,120,90,90,90/90/60/few days of 30
So its not that much...I can dose it well for 3 good weeks.
Is this enough for my PCT w/ 6 week phera/havoc bridge?
PCT:
3 weeks of SERM
Starting Reversitol in week 3 at 3/2/2/1
Bulk Powerfull
crazyfool405
Banned
Marsh11
Member
I wanted to love Torem I had such high hopes. I used it about a year and a half ago and about 3 days into PCT I felt like **** and my nips started to itch. I switched to Nolva right away and felt so much better. I get all my research chems from the same place (IR) and never had a problem. I want to try it again as so many people seem to love it. I dont know if it was me, or perhaps it was way underdosed? Glad to see its working for some people. Just wanted to share negative experiences as well.
Monster that PCT looks great to me. Very simple and effective. I ve always loved Powerfull in my PCT.
Monster that PCT looks great to me. Very simple and effective. I ve always loved Powerfull in my PCT.
ABNRanger
Well-known member
I am starting a an Epi cycle in Jan (would have started sooner, but need to get knee fixed first), and plan to use torem as well for my SERM. I have not gotten it as yet, but know it is a liquid, are you all injecting, or mixing with juice and then drinking it? Does it come in pill form as well?
Marsh11
Member
Depending on where you got it from I imagine they will send an ORAL syringe. Just shoot it into the back of your throat and chase it with OJ or something.
GMG760
Well-known member
Agreed. All the liquid is oral, not injected. It tastes like a chemistry lab, but washed down with something and it's totally manageable.
TripDog
Bananas
Hey Monsterbox, I have been on tore for like a week just to see what it changes and HOLY Sh*T. Dude lets just say my chick is a very happy camper. The sex drive increase is very noticable. I give tore two thumbs way up. I'm dosing it pretty high though cause it was powder so im kinda just guessing. Lets just say more isnt a bad thing it its case. Bigest effect I notice is libido, and desire are way up.
crazyfool405
Banned
monsterbox
Well-known member
hell yes!!! I only ran 60-70mg. What dose are you running? My libido didn't go up that much...but I am very young to start with.
Good to hear more success. Did you have libido decrease on nolva?
crazyfool405
Banned
i believe in one of the studies i read there were no side effect in up to 300mg of torem.
but theres probably very little need to go over 90mg
TripDog
Bananas
I have no clue honestly, def more than that though..lol. Yea nolva kills libido no doubt!!
GMG760
Well-known member
LOL... that is freakin awesome Trip... "I have no idea how much I am taking... eh, f*ck it."
monsterbox
Well-known member
I am sooo elated about this! this is my christmas present. Toremifene is a SERM that feels good and works great!!! Hell yea....here we come p-plex/SD
crazyfool405
Banned
im very intregued by it too, but if it acts like tamoxifen it can damage sperm as well. but if any one can find more articles in men other then the 1 on prostate cancer and the other in hypogonadal men (which i only found 1) then please post them!!!
gelin
New member
^ well, simply being an "analog" of tamoxifen doesn't necessarily mean that secondary effects are going to be the same, as I'm sure you know.
I dug up this abstract which mentions sperm quality in a positive light wrt 3 months of torem administration. I couldn't find a full copy of the paper, so take it fwiw. If I have the chance I'll see if I can find anything else tomorrow.
The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Farmakiotis D, Farmakis C, Rousso D, Kourtis A, Katsikis I, Panidis D.
Fertil Steril. 2007 Oct;88(4):847-53. Epub 2007 Apr 6.
Division of Endocrinology and Human Reproduction, Second Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters. DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study. SETTING: University hospital. PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia. INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility. RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy. CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.
I dug up this abstract which mentions sperm quality in a positive light wrt 3 months of torem administration. I couldn't find a full copy of the paper, so take it fwiw. If I have the chance I'll see if I can find anything else tomorrow.
The beneficial effects of toremifene administration on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis and sperm parameters in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.
Farmakiotis D, Farmakis C, Rousso D, Kourtis A, Katsikis I, Panidis D.
Fertil Steril. 2007 Oct;88(4):847-53. Epub 2007 Apr 6.
Division of Endocrinology and Human Reproduction, Second Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Thessaloniki, Greece.
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether toremifene, a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), has a beneficiary effect on all three main sperm parameters. DESIGN: Prospective interventional clinical study. SETTING: University hospital. PATIENT(S): One-hundred subfertile men with idiopathic oligozospermia. INTERVENTION(S): Toremifene (60 mg daily) was administered to all men for 3 months. At baseline and at the end of each month, serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, inhibin B, and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were measured. At baseline and at the end, semen analysis was performed and sperm concentration, spermatozoal motility and normal sperm forms were determined. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Gonadotropin, testosterone, inhibin-B levels, total sperm count, sperm morphology and motility. RESULT(S): Toremifene administration resulted in a significant increase in FSH, testosterone, SHBG, and inhibin B levels, as well as in sperm concentration, percentage motility and normal sperm forms. Twenty-two men's partners achieved pregnancy within 2 months of the end of treatment. At the end of the third month, serum FSH levels were significantly higher in the men whose partners did not achieve pregnancy, and total sperm count and normal sperm forms were significantly lower compared with the group of men whose partners achieved pregnancy. CONCLUSION(S): Toremifene administration for a period of 3 months in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia is associated with significant improvements of sperm count, motility, and morphology, mediated by increased gonadotropin secretion and possibly a direct beneficial effect of toremifene on the testes. The above findings are also indicative of a better testicular exocrine (improved sperm parameters) response to treatment in men whose partners achieved pregnancy compared with those who did not. Further randomized, placebo-controlled trials should be conducted to determine whether this particular selective estrogen receptor modulator can be useful as an initial approach in men with oligozoospermia.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
TripDog
Bananas
pgr's?
crazyfool405
Banned
while that is true, it may carry over SOME of the properties and diminish others,
ive read that study, and i believe that was the only one that dealt with men in that condition.
crazyfool405
Banned
who knows like i said there arent many studies done on it,
but that last study was over 3 months, we use it for a max of 6 weeks, the same rules dont apply we need long term studies and we need more studies overall.
no saying its bad because on paper it looks really good and its been getting some really great feedback, but IMO theres really not enough info on it for the reasons we use it
clomid and nolva on the other hand have those studies. and its more researched IMO and makes it more "tried and True"
crazyfool405
Banned
progesterone receptor.
monsterbox
Well-known member
I have a feeling the reason it does not cause a decrease in libido like nolvadex is because it DOESNT upreg pgr.
crazyfool405
Banned
well who knows. these no studies on it lol. we should find out when the studies come out, if they ever do,
all studies basically compare torem and tamox like they are exactly the same but torem with less toxicity, and thats how ive seen studies compare the 2.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
monsterbox
Well-known member
haven't used it for a pct but id think yes..considering your only other choice is clomid