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1-t = rich man's PH?

No one suggested that his weight is all water gain. The analogy was made that one could easily gain 16 lbs in one half an hour by consuming 2 gallons of water.
^Yeah, i understood what you were saying B, i was talking to someone else...

The gentleman, which i quoted said the following...

benderzzz quoted

From what I have read in his experience thus far, his gains are indeed PH like and not possible with water weight behind him. To acheive what he has done you need muscle weight gain
That, from my take, was to say that he has no water weight gain, or minimal water weight gain and mostly lbm...

For others, no one is knocking his achievements, but to say that a large margin of his "weight" gain is muscle and is NOT water to the least or extensive glycogen, is slightly plausible if at all. I hope that it's all true which would be well for the rest of us.
 
No one suggested that his weight is all water gain. The analogy was made that one could easily gain 16 lbs in one half an hour by consuming 2 gallons of water.

If I persistently eat in a large surplus I will gain weight. If I persistently lift heavy things with all my might I will get stronger. If I do both simultaneously I produce an anabolic state. That is not innovative and there is no skepticism about it.

To imply that the topical application of a product that has trace amounts of actives in it before absorption and negligible amounts of active after absorption and multiple conversions is responsible for anything other than the drive and motivation that comes with a $70 investment is really - very optimistic (trying to be polite).

Placing a steroid in a transdermal is not novel or innovative. Placing a prohormone in a transdermal is not novel or innovative. The use of such a product with the anticipation and enthusiasm that one experiences after a $70 investment is not innovative or novel either.

The point is - where is the 1-Testosterone and testosterone (or any other hormone in supraphysiological levels) that this product is supposed to deliver and be responsible for these achievements?

I am not arguing with what his results are as a result of his discipline, drive, motivation, training and diet. That HE owns and I give HIM complete credit for achieving such. I think he could have saved $70 and done the same.

Also keep in mind that simply because I am a board administrator and a NP representative does not preclude me from using reason, logic and critical thinking as a consumer and recreational athlete/bodybuilder/old guy. So before anyone suggests any blasphemy or betrayal on my part to any sponsor or product keep in mind that my money spends just like everyone elses does and I and everyone else is entitled to be a critical consumer.

Heat miser…

Please help me out so we can stay on a relative plane…

What was a typical dose of 1-testosterone that produced good results? [orally]

-Eric
 
Ill be posting in just a minute… as soon as I deal with PA on bb.com….

It seems that 1-T is invoking all kinds of emotions from competitors...

-Eric
As just a note, If you will remember, which you may not...i posted in a few of your threads about the dermacrine when it first hit, and said that it did deliver as promised, or at least, very close to promised results so I am in no way trying to sway business away from your Co.
 
Heat miser…

Please help me out so we can stay on a relative plane…

What was a typical dose of 1-testosterone that produced good results? [orally]

-Eric
Typically oral 1-Test was not the preferred route of administration. It has very poor bioavailability.

The transdermal application of 1-Testosterone was in the 200mg to 400mg effective dose range. Larger or more experienced users have used 400mg to 500mg.
 
Typically oral 1-Test was not the preferred route of administration. It has very poor bioavailability.

The transdermal application of 1-Testosterone was in the 200mg to 400mg effective dose range. Larger or more experienced users have used 400mg to 500mg.

Ok, and what was the carrier used with these TD's?

-Eric
 
This was the Avant Labs and T-Gel transdermal carriers. These carrier were all speculated to have absorption rates. Most suspected that at best they could be 40% and at worst 25%. So even at 25% there was still the absorption of a minimum of 100mg of the active steroid 1-testosterone. Even if it is more or less, there is no issues of multiple conversions. It is an active steroid.

Here's the gist of my inquiry - your product has 112.5mg of a prosteroid 1-DHEA.

What rate is it being absorbed?
After it is absorbed what rate does it convert to 1-Androstenediol?
After it converts to 1-Androstenediol what rate does it convert to 1-Testosterone?

What amount of 112.5mg of 1-DHEA actually becomes active 1-Testosterone?

The same question goes for DHEA?

What rate does it absorb?
What rate does it convert to diol/dione?
We know that diol/dione converts at considerably less than 10% to testosterone.

What amount of 94mg of DHEA actually becomes active testosterone?
 
This was the Avant Labs and T-Gel transdermal carriers. These carrier were all speculated to have absorption rates. Most suspected that at best they could be 40% and at worst 25%. So even at 25% there was still the absorption of a minimum of 100mg of the active steroid 1-testosterone. Even if it is more or less, there is no issues of multiple conversions. It is an active steroid.

Here's the gist of my inquiry - your product has 112.5mg of a prosteroid 1-DHEA.

What rate is it being absorbed?
After it is absorbed what rate does it convert to 1-Androstenediol?
After it converts to 1-Androstenediol what rate does it convert to 1-Testosterone?

What amount of 112.5mg of 1-DHEA actually becomes active 1-Testosterone?

The same question goes for DHEA?

What rate does it absorb?
What rate does it convert to diol/dione?
We know that diol/dione converts at considerably less than 10% to testosterone.

What amount of 94mg of DHEA actually becomes active testosterone?

My purpose here is to point out the fact that the TD carriers of 5 years ago are not even close to what we are producing now. I’d guess the highest % of 1-testosterone absorbed in those topicals you mentioned was about 10% [probably about 8% orally] and 1-test was simply more powerful than people realized.

Solvents used back in the day where usually isopropyl and PG. 1-testosterone doesn’t dissolve well in these solvents, so TD delivery isn’t going to be miraculous. We use a precise ratio of ethanol, ethoxy diglycol and dimethyl isosorbide…. Which are much more efficient solvents for TD delivery of said hormones.

As far as your questions, nobody can give an exact answer, but here are my best educated guess’s –

What rate is it being absorbed?

30-45% dependant on the area of the skin.

After it is absorbed what rate does it convert to 1-Androstenediol?

Maybe about 30-40%... but remember, its converting to 1-Adione and 1-Adiol which are both active anabolic steroid hormones. I’d say the total conversion to these combined is about 75%

After it converts to 1-Androstenediol what rate does it convert to 1-Testosterone?

Again, this is highly dependent on enzyme activity but I would guess about 50% of the 1-Adione/1-Adiol is making this conversion.


What amount of 112.5mg of 1-DHEA actually becomes active 1-Testosterone?

Answered above. It should be mentioned that 1-testosterone isn’t the only compound building muscle here. If you get high enough concentrations of 1-AD you can achieve the same sort of anabolic action as 1-testosterone. [simply less potent per mg]

The same question goes for DHEA?

What rate does it absorb?

It would be absorbed at a similar rate as 1-androsterone. (same MW)

What rate does it convert to diol/dione?
We know that diol/dione converts at considerably less than 10% to testosterone.

Probably about 50-75%. You get a high about of 7-keto metabolites from DHEA too.

What amount of 94mg of DHEA actually becomes active testosterone?

Who knows… but again… if you have high enough Adione and Adiol you can achieve the same effect as testosterone.

-Eric
 
My purpose here is to point out the fact that the TD carriers of 5 years ago are not even close to what we are producing now. I’d guess the highest % of 1-testosterone absorbed in those topicals you mentioned was about 10% [probably about 8% orally] and 1-test was simply more powerful than people realized.

Solvents used back in the day where usually isopropyl and PG. 1-testosterone doesn’t dissolve well in these solvents, so TD delivery isn’t going to be miraculous. We use a precise ratio of ethanol, ethoxy diglycol and dimethyl isosorbide…. Which are much more efficient solvents for TD delivery of said hormones.

As far as your questions, nobody can give an exact answer, but here are my best educated guess’s –

What rate is it being absorbed?

30-45% dependant on the area of the skin.

After it is absorbed what rate does it convert to 1-Androstenediol?

Maybe about 30-40%... but remember, its converting to 1-Adione and 1-Adiol which are both active anabolic steroid hormones. I’d say the total conversion to these combined is about 75%

After it converts to 1-Androstenediol what rate does it convert to 1-Testosterone?

Again, this is highly dependent on enzyme activity but I would guess about 50% of the 1-Adione/1-Adiol is making this conversion.


What amount of 112.5mg of 1-DHEA actually becomes active 1-Testosterone?

Answered above. It should be mentioned that 1-testosterone isn’t the only compound building muscle here. If you get high enough concentrations of 1-AD you can achieve the same sort of anabolic action as 1-testosterone. [simply less potent per mg]

The same question goes for DHEA?

What rate does it absorb?

It would be absorbed at a similar rate as 1-androsterone. (same MW)

What rate does it convert to diol/dione?
We know that diol/dione converts at considerably less than 10% to testosterone.

Probably about 50-75%. You get a high about of 7-keto metabolites from DHEA too.

What amount of 94mg of DHEA actually becomes active testosterone?

Who knows… but again… if you have high enough Adione and Adiol you can achieve the same effect as testosterone.

-Eric
That bold area is a pretty strong guesstimate...very strong, but, i hope you are correct in the assumption....
 
SO 112.5 * 40% = 45*75% = 33.75mg ed of 1-T or approx 240 per week?
if we're going with the worst case scenario, i'd estimate it from the low end...that's the high end, the 75%
 
sorry hardknock didnt intend to upset you.
i realize his gains are not all muscle that would be absurd as you pointed out. didnt mean it that way. Jeffro???? :lol: Havent heard that in a while.
All I can say is I hope the gains are similar to 1-test of old becasue that was one of my favorites, Along with mega dosed m4ohn.
 
SO 112.5 * 40% = 45*75% = 33.75mg ed of 1-T or approx 240 per week?

About 17mg/ED of actual 1-testosterone… but 1-T isn’t the only compound building muscle in 1-T… you have an anabolic action from 1-Adiol and 1-Adione too… not to mention the DHEA metabolites.

-Pp
 
1-DHEA High - absorption and conversion calculation based on assumptions and no supportive data:

112.5 1-DHEA x .45 (%absorbed) = 50.6

50.6 absorbed x .75 (%converted to 1-Dione/1-Diol combined) = 37.95

37.95 - 1-diol/1-dione combined x .50 (%converted to 1-test) = 18.98 1-Test daily x 7 = 140mg a week of 1-Test

************************************************
1-DHEA Low - dose absorption and conversion calculation based on assumptions and no supportive data:

112.5 1-DHEA x .30 (%absorbed) = 33.75

33.75 absorbed x .75 (%converted to 1-Dione/1-Diol combined) = 25.3125

25.3125 - 1-diol/1-dione combined x .50 (%converted to 1-test) = 12.65 1-Test daily x 7 = 89mg a week of 1-Test

High estimate 140mg a week of 1-Test
Low estimate 89mg a week of 1-Test
Average weekly 115mg a week of 1-Test
 
My purpose here is to point out the fact that the TD carriers of 5 years ago are not even close to what we are producing now. I’d guess the highest % of 1-testosterone absorbed in those topicals you mentioned was about 10% [probably about 8% orally] and 1-test was simply more powerful than people realized.

Solvents used back in the day where usually isopropyl and PG. 1-testosterone doesn’t dissolve well in these solvents, so TD delivery isn’t going to be miraculous. We use a precise ratio of ethanol, ethoxy diglycol and dimethyl isosorbide…. Which are much more efficient solvents for TD delivery of said hormones.
I have mixed 1-testosterone many times in many solvents at many concentrations. It's pretty solvent. Of course solubility and absorption are not the same.

No disrespect but you're really minimizing Caleb/Par's carrier formula. Not to mention T-gel was pretty damn good as well. I believe your estimate to be low. But it is no matter

I appreciate your time and effort in explanation.

Good luck and much success.
 
sorry hardknock didnt intend to upset you.
i realize his gains are not all muscle that would be absurd as you pointed out. didnt mean it that way. Jeffro???? :lol: Havent heard that in a while.
All I can say is I hope the gains are similar to 1-test of old becasue that was one of my favorites, Along with mega dosed m4ohn.
no man, i was not upset...i try to keep post comical without coming off as being an A%% because so many people get upset when you disagree with them....but, at the same time, my intent is to get further details and reasons for those details.
 
I have mixed 1-testosterone many times in many solvents at many concentrations. It's pretty solvent. Of course solubility and absorption are not the same.

No disrespect but you're really minimizing Caleb/Par's carrier formula. Not to mention T-gel was pretty damn good as well. I believe your estimate to be low. But it is no matter

I appreciate your time and effort in explanation.

Good luck and much success.

Achieving super saturation with proper solvents is very important for a high TD absorption rate. Undissolved hormone isn’t going to make it through the skin as well as dissolved hormones. An efficient topical can make all the difference.

A relevant example...

If you put 1-testosterone into a basic topical solution that only provides 10% over 24hrs and then take 1-androsterone in a topical that provides 40% over 24hrs then you will end up with pretty similar overall results... simply due to the higher absorption of a weaker steroid. [Albeit 1-test still being slightly more potent]

At any rate, you have to account for the differences when directly comparing the old 1-testosterone formulas to 1-T.

-Eric
 
well it made me laugh so mission accomplished
good luck on your detail searching man
i hope you figure this one out cause i cant right now
PP's other products work and are of superb quality so naturally i am optimistic about this new 1-T.
 
Achieving super saturation with proper solvents is very important for a high TD absorption rate. Undissolved hormone isn’t going to make it through the skin as well as dissolved hormones. An efficient topical can make all the difference.

A relevant example...

If you put 1-testosterone into a basic topical solution that only provides 10% over 24hrs and then take 1-androsterone in a topical that provides 40% over 24hrs then you will end up with pretty similar overall results... simply due to the higher absorption of a weaker steroid. [Albeit 1-test still being slightly more potent]

At any rate, you have to account for the differences when directly comparing the old 1-testosterone formulas to 1-T.


-Eric
I would certainly like to see data to support any absorption rate instead of grandious speculation.

A simple blood serum test using active of choice in Penetrate and PP's Topical soultion would provide you some evidence to support your claims. Otherwise I have no grounds to believe Penetrate or any other topical are inferior.

A smal investment on your part to validate your claims.
..
 
I would certainly like to see data to support any absorption rate instead of grandious speculation.

A simple blood serum test using active of choice in Penetrate and PP's Topical soultion would provide you some evidence to support your claims. Otherwise I have no grounds to believe Penetrate or any other topical are inferior.

A smal investment on your part to validate your claims.

In the middle of Invalid Link Removed there are links to exactly what your referring to (albeit for Dermacrine). So I would not be surprised if your wish came true...

There are also studies referenced in Invalid Link Removed indicating a better use of DHEA transdermally.

In regards to Penetrate vs Pp's topical carrier perhaps you could buy one of each. Compare the results? I've used both, and I must say skin 'health' seems to be much more noticeable with Pp's carrier (and I was using an older generation Pp carrier...V 1.0). And as we know with transdermal absorption skin hydration is an important factor.
 
In the middle of Invalid Link Removed there are links to exactly what your referring to (albeit for Dermacrine). So I would not be surprised if your wish came true...

There are also studies referenced in Invalid Link Removed indicating a better use of DHEA transdermally.

In regards to Penetrate vs Pp's topical carrier perhaps you could buy one of each. Compare the results? I've used both, and I must say skin 'health' seems to be much more noticeable with Pp's carrier (and I was using an older generation Pp carrier...V 1.0). And as we know with transdermal absorption skin hydration is an important factor.
Maybe I missed it, but can you show me the one that states that PP's topical solution has an absorption rate of 40%?
 
I would certainly like to see data to support any absorption rate instead of grandious speculation.

A simple blood serum test using active of choice in Penetrate and PP's Topical soultion would provide you some evidence to support your claims. Otherwise I have no grounds to believe Penetrate or any other topical are inferior.

A smal investment on your part to validate your claims.

...

I hear ya, and this has been discussed before, but there is no reasonable way for us to do this.

The solvents, permeants, and TD system tell the story of its efficiency – alone with cross referencing dozens of related TD studies. Unfortunately, a clean cut study on our combination just doesn’t exist… so in this case, “bro testimonials” is probably your most real-world source of info.

-Eric
 
I hear ya, and this has been discussed before, but there is no reasonable way for us to do this.

The solvents, permeants, and TD system tell the story of its efficiency – alone with cross referencing dozens of related TD studies. Unfortunately, a clean cut study on our combination just doesn’t exist… so in this case, “bro testimonials” is probably your most real-world source of info.

-Eric
Yet you still boast a claim of 40% and state other very credible sources as being 10% or less.
 
Yet you still boast a claim of 40% and state other very credible sources as being 10% or less.
this is just me... but im going to go out on a limb here and say, just try the shi!t...ya know? see what happens. i dont think there is such thing as complaining when you haven't tried something...especially when everyone's body is different. math says one thing but real world results are what i'm going to rely on. so before i make an opinion, im going to try the product. i suggest you do the same and quit busting eric's balls.

just sayin, just sayin. no harm, no foul.
 
d- limonene is an additive to some household cleaners. A supp company added it to a coq-10 product, they removed it because it caused an allergic response to consumers. Im glad to know it isnt in this.
 
this is just me... but im going to go out on a limb here and say, just try the shi!t...ya know? see what happens. i dont think there is such thing as complaining when you haven't tried something...especially when everyone's body is different. math says one thing but real world results are what i'm going to rely on. so before i make an opinion, im going to try the product. i suggest you do the same and quit busting eric's balls.

just sayin, just sayin. no harm, no foul.
No one is complaining. I have simply asked him for an explanation. You have made it clear more than once that you don't use your head...others of us do. I did not ask you for nor would I even consider your opinion.
 
Its okay man, you have a lot of freinds here, people stopped buying the product out of respect for you. Its over, everyone knows you are right. Peace
 
Limonene is regarded as safe both topically AND ingested internally.
 
If it works for you, more power to use it! Id rather have it to wipe my kitchen counters with.
You do seem to have some problems with logic.

Look up the material safety data sheet on Limonene if you can't grasp the point of what "regarded as safe" means.

You know what else is in cleaner? Water. OMGZ!
 
what a rip!!! i can get water for free out of my tap!
these cleaner companies are such a scam.
This is a special aqueous extraction, culled from the virgin urethras of supermodel eskimos.

/yeah, I would tap that, too.
 
this is just me... but im going to go out on a limb here and say, just try the shi!t...ya know? see what happens. i dont think there is such thing as complaining when you haven't tried something...especially when everyone's body is different. math says one thing but real world results are what i'm going to rely on. so before i make an opinion, im going to try the product. i suggest you do the same and quit busting eric's balls.

just sayin, just sayin. no harm, no foul.

can i borrowz $69.95 from you so i can try it for 23 dayz?
 
d-Limonene was added to td's as a solvent agent. And it comes from citrius rind. So how can it be harmful?
 
Funny about limonene, i have some in a vial on my desk that i made. Every now and then i pop it open and take a deep huff. MMMMM smells good
 
Funny about limonene, i have some in a vial on my desk that i made. Every now and then i pop it open and take a deep huff. MMMMM smells good
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
 
why would you waste so much $$ on 1-T when you can get a superdrol clone for under $30?

You going to run that for 6 weeks? :trout:
 
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