Ziquor
Well-known member
ah see I have come across early stuff
Damn you Easy! You have hordes of all the best stuff. Good thing your not in the Pitt, PA area your house may have been raided by now...
M-1,4ADD vs Pheraplex - Which is the best bulker?
- Thread starter Ziquor
- Start date
Damn you Easy! You have hordes of all the best stuff. Good thing your not in the Pitt, PA area your house may have been raided by now...
EasyEJL
Never enough
Damn you Easy! You have hordes of all the best stuff. Good thing your not in the Pitt, PA area your house may have been raided by now...
the funny part is it comes and it goes. I trade stuff in, I trade it back out. its all on the whim of the moment
clayu86
New member
thats true...thats why synthetics are taken at your own risk...we risk it when we do it...I appreciate your input though...good info
pez6969
New member
Damn you Easy! You have hordes of all the best stuff. Good thing your not in the Pitt, PA area your house may have been raided by now...
ZIQUOR: YOU GOT SOME GOOD INFO BEEN ON THIS SITE SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN IRAQ. I AM ALSO FROM PITT, PA. KEEP PUTTING OUT GOOD INFO. WE BE BACK IN THE STATES IN JULY FOR R/R. I'LL BE ON THE SOUTH SIDE(PROABALY JACKS). GO PENS.
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Some ppl are ridiculous about the 20yr old on AAS thing. Its funny b/c as soon as they see you're "21", its okay. I'm not condoning AAS use at 20 21, 40, 80, whatever, just felt like stating that its funny how people get bent out of shape over that 1 yr, or less, difference.
Having said that, if you haven't read the rules already as the mods had stated you should, at this board there is a 21yr old age limit for AAS discussion. They're very strict about it, too.
kwyckemynd00
Registered User
Well, 17a methyl groups on steroids cause more. Not just methyl groups in general. The liver likes to oxidize the 17b hydroxyl group into a ketone, but putting the 17a methyl group there protects the steroid from the oxidation and makes the livery go nutty.
Lots of things have methyl groups on them, and, there isn't some direct link between methylation "in general" and harshness on the liver. But, again, there are liver issues associated with adding a methyl group to the 17a position on a steroid. If a methyl were added to any other carbon on the entire hormone, it would not have the same effect. I can't predict the effect it would have, if any, but it wouldn't be the same. There are two other methyl groups on all these hormones people are taking, do a google image search, but they're there on all the different AAS and aren't what causes the liver toxicity of the 17a methyls, which everyone just refers to as "methyls".
Ziquor
Well-known member
Good observations. Tons of medications in general, besides steroids, have different methyl groups as well. However when there's a conversation in regards to hepatic toxicity and steroids I typically shortcut the conversation with the generic 'methyl' term assuming most understand the relevance of the 17a position.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Well now I always have time for a fan... haha. But on a serious note be safe in Iraq & thank you for serving this fine country. And yes - the Pens are looking damn good & have a great chance of gettin the cup (16 years has been way too damn long). Especially with their momentum they've built up. Philly's been a pushover - I'm suprised they actually pulled off a win earlier. Detroit should be a good challenge though - what a matchup that'll be. The Pens have been on a roll & the best part is how incredibly DAMN young the team is. All the key players could be around for quite some time. It's hard to believe that Crosby's still only 20 years old.
fcpcjc
Member
I didn't vote because I have yet to use m1,4add, but I am however currently running an Original AX Pheraplex cycle right now, and so far (1 week into it) I can say it's a pretty solid compound. I'm running it at a lower than average dose (20mg a day) and have been actually getting some fairly lean gains. My weight has gone up about 4-5lbs so far and my tiny pudge of a belly is slowly disappearing. So far, pretty happy with this compound. I think it kicked in quicker than when I ran DBOL at 25mg/ED.
Space
Member
To my limited knowledge of how steroids are metabolised in the liver, it's not the methy group that determines the toxicity but the enduring effect the steroid has upon repeated passes of the liver upon cholesterol and bile synthesis.
Repeated passes of methylated steroids affect cholestasis and gradually the cells of the liver become engorged with bile and unable to metabolise cholesterol.
This would explain why steroids with noted toxicity such as M-1T and superdrol adversely affect cholesterol to the extent that LDL is significantly increased and HDL is practically non-existent.
Ziquor
Well-known member
This could in part be some of the toxicity issue. Nearly all steroids, including non-methyls, negatively impact cholesterol. Also toxicity seems to be directly correlated to the anabolic potency of the compound as well. But anytime a 17aa is added to a non-methyl steroid it changes the anabolics properties and increases toxicity, sometimes greatly since it helps avoid breakdown in the liver.
crazyfool405
Banned
funny story,
my liver enzymes mid cycle came back fine, and before i started they were elevated.......? juss saying....
my liver enzymes mid cycle came back fine, and before i started they were elevated.......? juss saying....
hardknock
Well-known member
why would someone run 10 of each? I think it would be as 20 of phera hasn't been shown to be as toxic (from past blood works) as 20 mg of ss.
on the subject, I know when I ran the original pp, my squat numbers blew the roof off, and arm strength shot up. my bench and dead lift numbers didn't do well. I never felt lethargic and pct was solid. bloodwork was decent, ast/alt was ok, not great. hdl was horrid, ldl was not that high accordingly.
weight gain was 17lbs which was wet, mostly. after cutting, i'd say I held to about 8lbs ...
ImJ2x
Well-known member
If Phera is, in fact, less "toxic" than Super, then it would actually be safer to stack the 2 methyls @ 10mg each than to just run 20mg Super. So, basically, you're making my argument for me. Thanks.
But I guess a better way to state my argument would be:
Assuming methylA is equal in toxicity to methlyB, stacking 10mg methlyA + 10mg methylB is no more or less toxic than running a solo cycle of 20mg of either methyl.
mixedup
Well-known member
but whos to say phera toxity doesn't elevate when mixed with s-drol know what I mean. Not saying your not right but it's like with alchol you might like two shots of cognac or two shots of vodka but one shot of cognac and one shot of vodka can produce a totally different outcome.
Trauma1
Legend
I tend to agree here. While it would seem in ways that it would be less of an hepatotoxic issue, there is no way to know that for certain. Having 2 seperate compounds even at low doses can have a more detrimental effect on liver function than one compound dosed fairly highly. There is definitely no way at this time to ascertain the significance or interactions that may take place.
These type of potentially dangerous interaction scenarios very much exist with other medications in modern pharmacology. Unless the research says otherwise (something we'll never know anyway), i would tend to believe it's a bad idea. However, i could be wrong as well. I'm just erring on the side of caution, and basing my logic on my own education backround/experiences, and said anecdotal reports over the years of their solitary use.
My vote is Phera btw. A VERY impressive bulker!
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hardknock
Well-known member
That's basically what I was saying.
But to add to that, 20mg of PP has shown less toxicity vs 20mg of SS. Some would argue 1.5 times as toxic. So your still adding, if you stack the two, a MORE toxic substance (1.5 times more) with one that's already pretty toxic rather than just doing 20mg of a lower toxic methyl...
^This is in fact "if" SS is 1.5 or 2 times as toxic. Once again, I am going off of the blood work which I have read across the net from the 2 methyl's.
ImJ2x
Well-known member
Well I tend to defer to Trauma1 on these type issues -- he's certainly more knowledgeable than me.
But I've definitely stacked methyls (these 2 methyls, in fact -- Super+Phera), with no horrible interactions. That's the reason (and the only reason) I'm unafraid of stacking methyls. Not exactly scientific reasoning, I understand.
But I've definitely stacked methyls (these 2 methyls, in fact -- Super+Phera), with no horrible interactions. That's the reason (and the only reason) I'm unafraid of stacking methyls. Not exactly scientific reasoning, I understand.
Trauma1
Legend
Without studies to back it, there really is no way to be certain for sure. I know you've been doing this for a bit now, so i'm interested to see the results.
Good luck bro, and i definitely encourage some follow-up bloodwork just to be safe.
ImJ2x
Well-known member
I've actually been pretty good about running in to Kaiser to get semi-regular bloodwork. And even after stacking these 2 methyls (pulsed, which I think is important), my cholesterol levels have returned to baseline levels without difficulty. And my liver values have also been very resilient (remarkable, considering I'm very Irish and very fond of my whiskey -- even occasionally on-cycle, though in careful moderation).Without studies to back it, there really is no way to be certain for sure. I know you've been doing this for a bit now, so i'm interested to see the results.
Good luck bro, and i definitely encourage some follow-up bloodwork just to be safe.
So far, it seems to work for me. But I can't guarantee (or recommend) this for everyone. Just be careful and observant, and get occasional bloodwork done.
Trauma1
Legend
Sounds good, buddy. Reps to a fellow irishman as well! Actually, i'm a half breed. The other half is polish.
Resilient livers we have.
hardknock
Well-known member
sounds like you're getting through this nicely without much trouble. has your strength been any different stacking the two vs just doing a run of either or?
ImJ2x
Well-known member
Straight SD is actually better for my strength than SD+PP. In fact, I've gone from solo SD to SD+PP (bridging to solo PP), and seen an immediate (though slight) drop in strength. But I do like the increased (though somewhat wet/smooth) mass that comes with PP.