couture vs lesnar

[John Smeton]

agreed about two diversions maybe even 230 and under. geez did you see the size of that monster compared to Randy. and Randy looks huge in the scorpain king 2.I beleive he lost some of that for this fight and got big for the movie to appear well " big" Brock lesnar is a true heavyweight, freak of nature.

 

[Bionic]

Now Dana has his very owm Kimbo. Here's what Randy had to say post-fight.

Despite defeat, Randy Couture unprepared to put a wrap on career
by John Morgan on Nov 16, 2008 at 2:15 pm ET
For many MMA purists, the sight of new UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar's long right arm delivering a heavy blow to Randy Couture's temple is an image they would just as soon forget.

For former champion Couture, it's a moment he doesn't even remember.

"My corner told me that it looked like [Lesnar's punch] caught me behind the ear," Couture said at Saturday night's post-UFC 91 press conference. "It looked like I slipped the punch, but he had such a long reach that I didn't slip quite enough, and the punch caught me right behind the ear.

"But honestly I didn't see it. I didn't feel it. Next thing I knew I was on the ground eating leather."

The heavy right hand, along with the multitude of shorter blasts that followed on the ground, were enough to dethrone "The Natural" and give Lesnar the UFC's heavyweight title just four fights into his MMA career.

Couture himself had said that Lesnar reminded him of himself at a time earlier in his 13-year career. Some have suggested the bout stood as a ceremonial passing of the torch to a new guard. Couture is not convinced.

"I don't know about that," Couture said. "I was speaking more on a technical basis.

"I came from the same wrestling background that Brock came from. At times I felt overwhelmed like it was not enough time to learn all the things I needed or wanted to learn to feel like I had a complete game. I think that's what I was referring to in kind of having an idea where Brock was at at this stage of things."

While Couture wasn't ready to anoint Lesnar "The Next Big Thing" of MMA, the 45-year-old did view the new champ as an indication of the evolution of the division.

"I think Brock is a great indication of where the heavyweight division is going," Couture said. "You're getting these guys that aren't just big guys, but they're very, very good athletes.

"I think Brock -- obviously he's walking around with the title right now -- but I think he's on the right path to completing [his game], and adding all those skills to be a complete mixed martial artist. I know what that's like. It's fun, but you've got to step out there and prove it every time, too. Sometimes carrying that belt around makes you a target."

Lesnar's very large back will certainly have an oversized target on it for as long as he holds the title. While the winner of December's clash between interim heavyweight champion Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira and former UFC heavyweight champion Frank Mir will determine who gets the first crack at Lesnar's new belt, Couture has yet to decide if he will stick around for a second shot at the unlikely title-holder.

"I'll take a little time before I decide what I'm going to do," Couture said. "My wife's fighting next Friday. I'll focus on that and make sure she's ready to go. Let the dust kind of settle and we'll figure it out."

 

[AE14]

Raandy is correct, it will take Brock time, but he has all the tools to be a very successful fighter

 

[flobot]

Btw, did you guys hear about Mark Coleman coming back? Might make for a good Couture fight in the near future.

 

[rugger48]

huh??? I coulda sworn they straight up showed all the main fights for the next card :think:

wasnt it mir v nog, griffin v rashad, Rampage v Silva(axemurderer)

No what im talking about is a future card. They were talking about the LW division when florian won, and they put the camera on penn. The announcer said that florian will have to fight him to get the belt, but that penn will be fight gsp next. i dont think he was allowed to say that. i think he gave away a future card that they havent announced yet. I think at this point the most anticipated fights that people want to see are gsp and silve or penn and gsp. Did anybody else hear that?

 

[poopypants]

well I heard that but it didnt sound like anything more to me then a fact... BJ holds the title so its common sense that florian would have to go against him to get it :think:

doesnt necessarily mean hes next in line but if he is he deserves the shot and Im sure it wouldnt be taboo to say so on the air without it being officially announced first.

JMO

 

[somewhatgifted]

Not to mention florian stated that "penn is a master and he must kill the master".

 

[pistonpump]

dude if you look at when randy clinched with brock on the fence you will see he had alot of strength and his back looked pretty fckn wide and thick. watch the tapes, randy isnt a small 220lber. One thing i thought was funny was when they touched gloves you can see brock's arm is the width of randy's body profile lol.

 

[pistonpump]

Not to mention florian stated that "penn is a master and he must kill the master".

yeah i thought that was hilarious...... he's gonna get destroyed for saying that. hahahaha even tho florian's standup looked pretty quick and impressive i dont think he is going to be able to stand with bj so that leaves the ground and that doesnt look to good for him either haha. gsp is the best matchup for penn, just about everyone else would most likely get pwned

 

[VolcomX311]

Not to mention florian stated that "penn is a master and he must kill the master".

haha, I love Samurai mottos. Invalid Link Removed

 

[VolcomX311]

yeah i thought that was hilarious...... he's gonna get destroyed for saying that. hahahaha even tho florian's standup looked pretty quick and impressive i dont think he is going to be able to stand with bj so that leaves the ground and that doesnt look to good for him either haha. gsp is the best matchup for penn, just about everyone else would most likely get pwned

Agreed on all fronts Invalid Link Removed

 

[pistonpump]

lol where are you gettin all these smiley's volcom?

 

[somewhatgifted]

I think he did lose alot of weight for this one. He underestimated brock expecting to "wear him down and out work him".

He lost and its not about making excuses its a clear observation that he was looking small for randy as a heavy not just small compared to brock. His back and shoulders were visibly smaller in the fight and his back is half the size in these pics. This is a diff of a ufc reported 8 pounds.

Also randy is listed as 6'2" and Brock 6'3" WTF?

 

[bla55]

Just finished watching the fight and I gotta say.

Brock is good, yeah, he is a really good fighter. But I'm sorry, he doesn't win fights on skill, he wins them on almost pure overwelming strength.

And for the UFC to try to push it down our throats as he being "the next big thing", I'm sorry, I'm going to have to draw the line here. He may be the next big thing on the 285lb division, but he has nowhere close to the techinique as a Couture, Mintauro, heck, even Mir! Gonzaga, and the list goes on. He is now the heavyweight champion and his scorecard is 2-1. Really? 3 fights and you're a heavyweight champion?

Sorry but I just don't buy it. And no fighter in the UFC ever had to gain that much weight to have a chance. So now all the good heavyweights that want a shot are going to need about 30lbs to start having a shot. And I'm positive that someone within 20lbs of Lesnar with good technique overall would get him well.

And I'm not taking anything away from him, I know he's one hell of a wrestler, but it seems like he relies and pushes very little for it, all he does is overpower his oponents.

 

[poopypants]

id like to see gonzaga go at it with lesner... hes looking larger himself and can throw some bombs.

 

[John Smeton]

size matters.

 

[TimberLakers]

Just finished watching the fight and I gotta say.

Brock is good, yeah, he is a really good fighter. But I'm sorry, he doesn't win fights on skill, he wins them on almost pure overwelming strength.

And for the UFC to try to push it down our throats as he being "the next big thing", I'm sorry, I'm going to have to draw the line here. He may be the next big thing on the 285lb division, but he has nowhere close to the techinique as a Couture, Mintauro, heck, even Mir! Gonzaga, and the list goes on. He is now the heavyweight champion and his scorecard is 2-1. Really? 3 fights and you're a heavyweight champion?

Sorry but I just don't buy it. And no fighter in the UFC ever had to gain that much weight to have a chance. So now all the good heavyweights that want a shot are going to need about 30lbs to start having a shot. And I'm positive that someone within 20lbs of Lesnar with good technique overall would get him well.

And I'm not taking anything away from him, I know he's one hell of a wrestler, but it seems like he relies and pushes very little for it, all he does is overpower his oponents.

In summary... He's sorry. :lol:

 

[TimberLakers]

size matters.

That's what she said?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wf2pP7T0Y&feature=related"]YouTube - Every "That's What She Said" from The Office[/nomedia]

 

[pistonpump]

id like to see gonzaga go at it with lesner... hes looking larger himself and can throw some bombs.

brah thats what i was saying! that would be a good test for brock.....a big strong dude with ko power and good striking. i would put money on gonzaga. styles make fights.... you cant knock brock for being powerful and big, they are simply tools that other cant really match with, just as if someone had very long reach or very agile on the ground, its just another tool.

people are trying to take away from brock i just dont see why, so what he's bigger so what if he has little experience, he beat randy and carries the belt, nuff said!

 

[jon671]

Brock should fight Kimbo or Fedor. As a big guy I didn't like the size difference. I think Fedor is like 235 or something and Kimbo is about the same. Only two fights and he was given this oppurtunity?

 

[elscotto]

Brock should fight Kimbo or Fedor. As a big guy I didn't like the size difference. I think Fedor is like 235 or something and Kimbo is about the same. Only two fights and he was given this oppurtunity?

wow dude theres a large difference of skill between the 2. u basicaly just said the worst heavyweight followed by the best :run:

 

[pistonpump]

Brock should fight Kimbo or Fedor. As a big guy I didn't like the size difference. I think Fedor is like 235 or something and Kimbo is about the same. Only two fights and he was given this oppurtunity?

i agree on that. he got the shot after 3 fights that was messed up, shows dana is about the money making matches.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Just finished watching the fight and I gotta say.

Brock is good, yeah, he is a really good fighter. But I'm sorry, he doesn't win fights on skill, he wins them on almost pure overwelming strength.

And for the UFC to try to push it down our throats as he being "the next big thing", I'm sorry, I'm going to have to draw the line here. He may be the next big thing on the 285lb division, but he has nowhere close to the techinique as a Couture, Mintauro, heck, even Mir! Gonzaga, and the list goes on. He is now the heavyweight champion and his scorecard is 2-1. Really? 3 fights and you're a heavyweight champion?

Sorry but I just don't buy it. And no fighter in the UFC ever had to gain that much weight to have a chance. So now all the good heavyweights that want a shot are going to need about 30lbs to start having a shot. And I'm positive that someone within 20lbs of Lesnar with good technique overall would get him well.

And I'm not taking anything away from him, I know he's one hell of a wrestler, but it seems like he relies and pushes very little for it, all he does is overpower his oponents.

Unfortunately MMA does not come down to "who is the most skilled and/or who could beat more opponents in the division". Skill is only a single component of a fighter's repertoire: Strength, explosiveness, athleticism, etc., etc., must be considered as fighting components. These are not simply 'natural talents', either; while, obviously, Brock is a naturally gifted athlete, these are necessary components to MMA - equal to that of skill - that a fighter must expand upon to be successful.

If Brock has capitalized on his natural size and strength by training those traits into perfection, good for him. I do not seem to be making the same connection you are, that somehow that is a less considerable factor than BJJ skills. Fedor has beaten fighters who were more skilled strikers, and destroyed them due to a confluence of factors. MMA is not skill against skill, it is fighter against fighter, to see whom can beat whom.

 

[TimberLakers]

Unfortunately MMA does not come down to "who is the most skilled and/or who could beat more opponents in the division". Skill is only a single component of a fighter's repertoire: Strength, explosiveness, athleticism, etc., etc., must be considered as fighting components. These are not simply 'natural talents', either; while, obviously, Brock is a naturally gifted athlete, these are necessary components to MMA - equal to that of skill - that a fighter must expand upon to be successful.

If Brock has capitalized on his natural size and strength by training those traits into perfection, good for him. I do not seem to be making the same connection you are, that somehow that is a less considerable factor than BJJ skills. Fedor has beaten fighters who were more skilled strikers, and destroyed them due to a confluence of factors. MMA is not skill against skill, it is fighter against fighter, to see whom can beat whom.

As my old coach would say... That's why they fight the fights!

 

[ThomasRivera]

Brock should fight Kimbo or Fedor. As a big guy I didn't like the size difference. I think Fedor is like 235 or something and Kimbo is about the same. Only two fights and he was given this oppurtunity?

Woah woah woah. Kimbo.....no, he was an overhyped street fighter turned MMA fighter. Brock fighting kimbo or fedor would mirror his first two matches. Kimbo being the Min So Kim, and Fedor being the Frank Mir.

 

[Nitrox]

Unfortunately MMA does not come down to "who is the most skilled and/or who could beat more opponents in the division". Skill is only a single component of a fighter's repertoire: Strength, explosiveness, athleticism, etc., etc., must be considered as fighting components. These are not simply 'natural talents', either; while, obviously, Brock is a naturally gifted athlete, these are necessary components to MMA - equal to that of skill - that a fighter must expand upon to be successful.

If Brock has capitalized on his natural size and strength by training those traits into perfection, good for him. I do not seem to be making the same connection you are, that somehow that is a less considerable factor than BJJ skills. Fedor has beaten fighters who were more skilled strikers, and destroyed them due to a confluence of factors. MMA is not skill against skill, it is fighter against fighter, to see whom can beat whom.

I'm suprised you don't see the point that people are trying to make. MMA is now a sport and fights can be structured in whatever way the promoter can get approval for. They can be sporting events like the current weight classes below HW in the UFC or they can be totally open like the old school UFC where anyone could enter.

With the 60lb spread the current UFC HW division is inconsistent with the lower weight classes. If you like that fine. Lesnar took the opportunity and Couture agreed to it. No problem there; I don't see anyone really faulting the fighters. Dana White on the other hand has not only brought Lesnar in but also some of the WWE. Maybe that is his M.O. Have the more competitive lower classes for the fans who like tight competition and the HW class for the meatheads that like a good stompin'.

Of all the UFC fights that I have seen Couture/Lesnar was about a 6.5/10. Disappointing for me but ultimately the UFC is a business and fancy packaging sells.

 

[VolcomX311]

Unfortunately MMA does not come down to "who is the most skilled and/or who could beat more opponents in the division". Skill is only a single component of a fighter's repertoire: Strength, explosiveness, athleticism, etc., etc., must be considered as fighting components. These are not simply 'natural talents', either; while, obviously, Brock is a naturally gifted athlete, these are necessary components to MMA - equal to that of skill - that a fighter must expand upon to be successful.

If Brock has capitalized on his natural size and strength by training those traits into perfection, good for him. I do not seem to be making the same connection you are, that somehow that is a less considerable factor than BJJ skills. Fedor has beaten fighters who were more skilled strikers, and destroyed them due to a confluence of factors. MMA is not skill against skill, it is fighter against fighter, to see whom can beat whom.

I agree. MMA is about fighting, fighting is about physicality and the skill to hone that physicality into something even more useful & dangerous. Not giving Brock credit is like saying about an NFL line backer, he's only good because he's quick and powerful, but foot technique is whack, he can't anticipate QB passes and is subpar at reading runs. He only smashes through the line because he's a beast, well phuckit he gets the job done.

Fedor is the best MMA'ist, but as previously mentioned, he's not the best at striking, or the best at take downs or the best at take down defense. To be number one, you don't need to rank number in all aspects of the sport. Brock is big, but plenty of giant men have tried MMA and sucked balls because all they had was size, but no coordination, no power, no speed, no speed, no quickness, no spacial awareness or even basic fighting knowledge. Brock's athleticism on top of his size is what makes him dangerous and sets a foundation for amazing potential.

This is MMA, not a BJJ tournament.

 

[VolcomX311]

I'm suprised you don't see the point that people are trying to make. MMA is now a sport and fights can be structured in whatever way the promoter can get approval for. They can be sporting events like the current weight classes below HW in the UFC or they can be totally open like the old school UFC where anyone could enter.

With the 60lb spread the current UFC HW division is inconsistent with the lower weight classes. If you like that fine. Lesnar took the opportunity and Couture agreed to it. No problem there; I don't see anyone really faulting the fighters. Dana White on the other hand has not only brought Lesnar in but also some of the WWE. Maybe that is his M.O. Have the more competitive lower classes for the fans who like tight competition and the HW class for the meatheads that like a good stompin'.

Of all the UFC fights that I have seen Couture/Lesnar was about a 6.5/10. Disappointing for me but ultimately the UFC is a business and fancy packaging sells.

There are probably more "meat head" fans then people who truly appreciate a well strategized and executed ground game. However, preferring KO endings, as oppose to a submission does not make you a meat head.

How do you breath when the air is so thin way up there?

I guarantee you I'm not a meat head, but I get amped out my brain when I see a KO.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I'm suprised you don't see the point that people are trying to make. MMA is now a sport and fights can be structured in whatever way the promoter can get approval for. They can be sporting events like the current weight classes below HW in the UFC or they can be totally open like the old school UFC where anyone could enter.

With the 60lb spread the current UFC HW division is inconsistent with the lower weight classes. If you like that fine. Lesnar took the opportunity and Couture agreed to it. No problem there; I don't see anyone really faulting the fighters. Dana White on the other hand has not only brought Lesnar in but also some of the WWE. Maybe that is his M.O. Have the more competitive lower classes for the fans who like tight competition and the HW class for the meatheads that like a good stompin'.

Of all the UFC fights that I have seen Couture/Lesnar was about a 6.5/10. Disappointing for me but ultimately the UFC is a business and fancy packaging sells.

I do see the point, but are you in turn recognizing that a fighter's status at weigh-in, and his subsequent weight status during the fight are two different things? If one cannot realize that a 190lb individual can plausibly weigh-in at 170, and in turn fight against an individual who needed to bulk to reach weigh-in, that is unfortunate. The picture below is of Kevin Randleman at 205:

Invalid Link Removed

This photo is of Brandon Vera at 205:

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The sheer size and muscular difference here is equal to that of the divergence between Lesnar and Couture. This is in the same weight class as well, and I thought the spread in lower weight classes was more equitable?

 

[TimberLakers]

Take into account the lower weight classes too... How often do you see a guy come in at 145 at a 155 pound weight class. There IS no disparity in scale weight in the lower classes, because these guys go through hell to squeeze down to the last ounce to get themselves to weigh in at the upper tier. The only difference is how much they have to drop to get there - which is why you can have a guy weighing 10 pounds more than another on fight night.

Randy has every opportunity to make himself 265 pounds if he so chooses, but he doesn't because he fights the best he can at his perceived optimal weight - which happened to be around 220 to 225...

Boxing has had the same system for decades. The best heavyweights of all time were not freakishly huge guys (think Ali, Johnson, Dempsey). They best had a great combination of speed, power, defense, coordination, timing, and skill... most of these (aside from power) diminish when a fighter gets to tall or muscled.

 

[Nitrox]

There are probably more "meat head" fans then people who truly appreciate a well strategized and executed ground game. However, preferring KO endings, as oppose to a submission does not make you a meat head.

How do you breath when the air is so thin way up there?

I guarantee you I'm not a meat head, but I get amped out my brain when I see a KO.

Language chosen for emphasis, no insults meant. I don't recall mentioning anything about subs vs KO's...

I do see the point, but are you in turn recognizing that a fighter's status at weigh-in, and his subsequent weight status during the fight are two different things? If one cannot realize that a 190lb individual can plausibly weigh-in at 170, and in turn fight against an individual who needed to bulk to reach weigh-in, that is unfortunate. The picture below is of Kevin Randleman at 205:

Invalid Link Removed

This photo is of Brandon Vera at 205:

Invalid Link Removed

The sheer size and muscular difference here is equal to that of the divergence between Lesnar and Couture. This is in the same weight class as well, and I thought the spread in lower weight classes was more equitable?

Yes I do take that into account in formulating my opinion. Mathematically the spreads are not proportionally equivalent. The HW spread is about 2.5 times that of the other divisions. If you want to throw out the argument that size advantage is not linearly proportional I would accept that a case for argument...

Take a fighter that walks around at a lean 230. Say a fighter can cut a max of 10% so this guy can only get to 207 and has to remain in HW. A guy who walks around at 294 and who can cut 10% can make the 265 HW limit. Worst case scenario but applicable nonetheless.

Vera is 6'2" and Randleman is 5'10". Height brings a reach advantage. Muscle brings a strength advantage and a cardio disadvantage. Overall, I would say they are physically matched.

 

[Nitrox]

Take into account the lower weight classes too... How often do you see a guy come in at 145 at a 155 pound weight class. There IS no disparity in scale weight in the lower classes, because these guys go through hell to squeeze down to the last ounce to get themselves to weigh in at the upper tier. The only difference is how much they have to drop to get there - which is why you can have a guy weighing 10 pounds more than another on fight night..

Do the math. I am not saying that the lower weight classes are evenly matched only that they are significantly MORE evenly matched than HW.

Randy has every opportunity to make himself 265 pounds if he so chooses, but he doesn't because he fights the best he can at his perceived optimal weight - which happened to be around 220 to 225....

C'mon. Nobody has every opportunity to be whatever weight they choose. Do we really need to entertain this argument?

Boxing has had the same system for decades. The best heavyweights of all time were not freakishly huge guys (think Ali, Johnson, Dempsey). They best had a great combination of speed, power, defense, coordination, timing, and skill... most of these (aside from power) diminish when a fighter gets to tall or muscled.

There is some validity to this point, however I don't think that it is because those guys beat much larger opponents. There were not as many really big guys back then. Look at the current situation. Don't the Klitschko bothers hold most of the titles and aren't they relatively bigger than most of their opponents?

 

[TimberLakers]

I guess you think that Nikoli Valuev is the sh*t then too?

 

[TimberLakers]

C'mon. Nobody has every opportunity to be whatever weight they choose. Do we really need to entertain this argument?

Could Randy bulk up to 265? Yes. Would it make sense for him? Probably not! But given a certain frame, everyone has the ability to put on a certain amount of muscle...

With your suggestions, I guess you'd also want to put on a height requirement and perhaps an ectomorph and mesomorph class as well?

 

[TimberLakers]

There is some validity to this point, however I don't think that it is because those guys beat much larger opponents. There were not as many really big guys back then. Look at the current situation. Don't the Klitschko bothers hold most of the titles and aren't they relatively bigger than most of their opponents?

Wladamir Klitschko also got knocked out by Corrie Sanders in 2 rounds, and Lamon Brewster in 5... 225 and 226 respectively - not exactly monsters.

And no, if you go ahead and do a mean average of all the guys Wlad has fought - he actually comes up 4 or 5 pounds lighter.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Emerge]

Could Randy bulk up to 265? Yes. Would it make sense for him? Probably not! But given a certain frame, everyone has the ability to put on a certain amount of muscle... ?

At 45 years old, could he do that legally? And if so, how long would it take for him to make that? What about the rest of his other training he needs to do to get ready?

 

[TimberLakers]

At 45 years old, could he do that legally? And if so, how long would it take for him to make that? What about the rest of his other training he needs to do to get ready?

Who said anything about legally..? :lol:

You think Lesnar is 100% natural? :frustrate

I made a pretty comprehensive list in another thread of positive steroid tests in the UFC in the past two years... Only a small portion of those positives were for guys taking drugs to help them cut weight. The rest were clear bulking cycles.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Yes I do take that into account in formulating my opinion. Mathematically the spreads are not proportionally equivalent. The HW spread is about 2.5 times that of the other divisions. If you want to throw out the argument that size advantage is not linearly proportional I would accept that a case for argument...

And if fights were mathematical abstractions carried out in this fashion, your point would have credence. Fortunately for the excitement and entertainment value of fights, they are not; unfortunately for your point, they are not. My point was that the actual possibility for a weight-spread is equitable for all divisions, not just HW.

Herein, you are also assuming that size is an unequivocal and proportionate advantage when it is not. Many HWs could be Brock's size but choose not to as it is not advantageous to their fighting style.

Take a fighter that walks around at a lean 230. Say a fighter can cut a max of 10% so this guy can only get to 207 and has to remain in HW. A guy who walks around at 294 and who can cut 10% can make the 265 HW limit. Worst case scenario but applicable nonetheless.

Or, let us say the same fighter can (and fighters often do) and does make the cut from 230 to 205, and fights an individual that bulked in the previous weeks from 198 to 205. During the fight, the weight divergence is 32lbs - very much equal to the weight advantage most HWs would experience with Brock.

Vera is 6'2" and Randleman is 5'10". Height brings a reach advantage. Muscle brings a strength advantage and a cardio disadvantage. Overall, I would say they are physically matched.

I quite enjoy how you apply this formula in your defense, but veraciously deny it as a criticism of your point!

 

[Emerge]

Who said anything about legally..? :lol:

You think Lesnar is 100% natural? :frustrate

I made a pretty comprehensive list in another thread of positive steroid tests in the UFC in the past two years... Only a small portion of those positives were for guys taking drugs to help them cut weight. The rest were clear bulking cycles.

It would have to be legally since the roids stay in your system for some time, no?

I don't think Lesnar is 100% natural. But, it is possible. Who knows? But, they do have to be off of everything for some time before the fight or they get suspended.

 

[TimberLakers]

It would have to be legally since the roids stay in your system for some time, no?

I don't think Lesnar is 100% natural. But, it is possible. Who knows? But, they do have to be off of everything for some time before the fight or they get suspended.

Honestly, no... It depends what you're running. Very few substances will show in your system after 6 months.

Also - no reliable tests for HGH past 2 or 3 days of using.

 

[Emerge]

How long would does it take for most substances to be completely eliminated?

 

[Nitrox]

I guess you think that Nikoli Valuev is the sh*t then too?

Could Randy bulk up to 265? Yes. Would it make sense for him? Probably not! But given a certain frame, everyone has the ability to put on a certain amount of muscle...

With your suggestions, I guess you'd also want to put on a height requirement and perhaps an ectomorph and mesomorph class as well?

Now you're just being petty.

For me the Couture/Lesnar fight is an example of what I have always said is, for me, a shortcoming of the UFC heavyweight division. Overall I think it was an evenly matched fight. Couture was inferior physically but had superior experience. However, I found that Lesnar's inferior skillset made for a boring fight.

The UFC is supposed to be the top echelon for MMA fighters. If Dana expects me to shell out $45 for PPV then I expect him to leave the beginner and intermediate skilled fighters to the lower leagues or the undercard. Just my preference.

Wladamir Klitschko also got knocked out by Corrie Sanders in 2 rounds, and Lamon Brewster in 5... 225 and 226 respectively - not exactly monsters.

And no, if you go ahead and do a mean average of all the guys Wlad has fought - he actually comes up 4 or 5 pounds lighter.

Invalid Link Removed

Believe it or not I was actually asking a question. I don't keep regular tabs on boxing.

It sounds like the difference between boxing and the UFC is the lack of larger competitors in the UFC HW division. From a viewers perspective, if they can sign on multiple talented fighters that are in the upper half of the weight class then I think we would see some entertaining fights. However, statistically there are not that many out there.

 

[TimberLakers]

I don't think I'm being petty - apologies if I brushed off that way.

To be honest, I don't think that the impetus is on Brock Lesnar to find a different place to fight... A lot can be said that Randy really has no business being a heavyweight. We all know he can fight (and fight well) at 205 - he moved up to prove a point and give his ego a little polish.

I think its a lot like Roy Jones Jr back in 2002. He found an opportunity to move up and take a heavyweight belt from John Ruiz - who was a tough heavyweight, but with a lack of handspeed and dangerous power. He took the opportunity, beat him handedly, and made boxing history.

Was he undersized? Yes. Was it a legit win? Yes. Did I consider him a dominant heavyweight? No. Could he have beaten a BIG HW like a Klitschko / Tyson / Lewis back then? No.

The weight limits are there - you have to tune your body and fight skills around them. Only problem right now is that the 275+ fighters don't have a home right now. I wouldn't mind seeing a 250+ limit and pulling back the 265... but to say now that the division isn't competitive and is unfair just doesn't have much merit.

 

[TimberLakers]

How long would does it take for most substances to be completely eliminated?

Depending on the substance... 3 days (HGH) to 18 months (Boldenone).

Also depends if it is a blood or urine sample.

 

[Nitrox]

Vera is 6'2" and Randleman is 5'10". Height brings a reach advantage. Muscle brings a strength advantage and a cardio disadvantage. Overall, I would say they are physically matched.

I quite enjoy how you apply this formula in your defense, but veraciously deny it as a criticism of your point!

Umm... Seriously? You do realize that both those fighters had to cut down to 205 right? Realistically that means about a 10 lb max weight difference at fight time. Couture did not have to cut but Brock did. So what is that 280 vs 220? You see no difference between a 10 lb and 60 lb weight difference in two adjacent weight classes?

If you don't fine, that is your opinion. However, do not imply that I am arguing both sides of the coin.

 

[RenegadeRows]

IF randy was to beat lesnar would you not contemplate that WWE fans would sit up and say "wow these ufc guys are for real". That would be assuming WWE fans actually care about talent and who would actually win in a fight, over, who says the most badass things and looks big.

On the other hand if brock won..... How many fans would the UFC pick up?

I just dont see lesnar bringing a solid five round fight to randy, if he slips up he's done.

Has brock even been hit yet???

Before he beats randy think about if he can take a punch.

I see brock winning a controversial descision if randy cant capitalise early, not cause he's better but the UFC's descisions are horrendous.

That is to assume we take WWE fans seriously to begin with...

Remember that there is alot of cross over with wrestling, look at Shamrock and Severn... although they did UFC first, then WWE.

But Lesner had a pretty impressive college wrestling record under his belt. That and he's a big strong mofo.

 

[Rodja]

There is a weight class between 206-265 per the revised unified rules, but the UFC has yet to adopt them.

 

[TimberLakers]

There is a weight class between 206-265 per the revised unified rules, but the UFC has yet to adopt them.

Right... and wont.

I think you're talking about WAMMA, correct?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Umm... Seriously? You do realize that both those fighters had to cut down to 205 right? Realistically that means about a 10 lb max weight difference at fight time. Couture did not have to cut but Brock did. So what is that 280 vs 220? You see no difference between a 10 lb and 60 lb weight difference in two adjacent weight classes?

If you don't fine, that is your opinion. However, do not imply that I am arguing both sides of the coin.

In fact, you are. Allow me to present your argument:

The obvious divergence between size and muscle between Vera and Randleman is negated by divergences in height, reach, and cardiovascular capacity. Therefore, the obvious weight difference (in actual terms, on fight night, not a hypothetical spread) is negated.

Now, others have applied this argument to Randy v Lesnar, disagreeing with your position that size is the absolute determination of advantage, and you have claimed it fallacious. Seems to me you are doing exactly as I have charged you with.

A perfect example of your misconception is GSP v Serra. GSP cuts approximately 16-17lbs for the fight, and most likely weighs 185 or so come fight time. Serra is a natural LW, and retains non-functional weight (i.e., fat mass) to make the 170 weight restriction for the fight. This creates an even further separation of LM (Lean Mass)(which is important, and what we are truly considering here). I would place GSP's body fat percentage at approximately 6%, arriving at an LBM of 173. Serra, on the other hand, who barely makes weight, is most likely 14%, arriving at an LBM of 144. As you seem quite adept at Mathematics, that is a 29lb weight difference. Now, even if one assumes I was being over-generous with GSP's weight estimation and subsequent cut, and likewise under exaggerated Serra's terms, the weight difference on fight night, in actual terms was massive in terms of functional, LBM.

It would seem you are trapped in a circular line of reasoning that each fighter weighs in at the restriction, and remains there. Some fighters have the ability to gain 17+ lbs that night, and very often they are fighting somebody who bulked to get there. Vera as an HW is a perfect example.

 

[flobot]

Umm yeah... a guy w/ an inferior skillset that KO'd a legend that just dominated a 6'8" Tim Sylvia.

This is actually what makes an MMA fight interesting. ANYBODY can be KO'd w/ those tiny gloves. (Except maybe hockey players hehehe..)

Edit: And btw, anticipating some comments on the hockey player: A show from Nat Geographic called Sport Science tested the power of an average hockey player's bare knuckle punch and Rampage Jackson's punch w/ MMA glove on. They were equal. So let nobody tell me that hockey players can't take a decent punch.

However, I found that Lesnar's inferior skillset made for a boring fight.

The UFC is supposed to be the top echelon for MMA fighters. If Dana expects me to shell out $45 for PPV then I expect him to leave the beginner and intermediate skilled fighters to the lower leagues or the undercard. Just my preference.