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Papa you ever think you may have thyroid issues?
PapaPump's CJC-1295/GHRP-6 6-month Run
- Thread starter papapumpsd
- Start date
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Nooooo....never. I think it's mainly water weight personally. Right now, my hands, when I make a fist, feel...like my fingers are smooshing together. The fists I make feel tight and swolen.
I think a good cardio beating along with a revised diet (>= 100g carbs ED) and a mild diuretic will do me quite well. I'd like to drop 10lbs in a few weeks.
datBtrue
Well-known member
Fine to inject, wait 15-30 min. then have a shake. I always eat before bed and I still feel the effects of GH. I can't seem to avoid eating after a shot.....GHRP-6 stimulates hunger and ya, I EAT.
I've been doing this lately as well and I actually prefer it.
datBtrue
Well-known member
Have you tried Dandelion Root? I'm going to pick some up and see if it helps with my water & ankle swelling.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Actually yes, I have Dandelion now (not sure if it's the "root" though) as it was recommended to me by Pumb I think it was. Now I just have to find the right dosage and frequency. It's supposed to be K+ sparing.
Thanks for chiming in bud.
Bobaslaw
Member
Dandelion is great, however, as I have recently found out, it is the leaf extract AND NOT the root extract that you want primarily for the diuretic purposes, unless standardized specifically for Taraxacin.
Taraxacin (active) is found in both the root and leaves, but in greater concentration in the leaves. The leaves are also richer in potassium (K) as well which is a plus even though taraxicin's action is considered K sparing.
The root also has other actives that are also used as laxative remedies, gall bladder/bile issues, etc, so you can see that ideally you do want the leaves and as high a standardized extract of taraxacin unless there is purpose in the other benefits of the root. Some products do use the root (MHP Expel), but most info points to the leaves as the main source.
There are synergistic effects with other herbals that you will see in combined formulas. Avidin from Uva Ursi works with taraxacin quite well from information found. Also B6, which has diuretic activity on its own..
Some products that use taraxacin, Avidin and B6 as the base of ingredients that seem to have good standing:
Cytodyne's Taraxatone
MHP's Expel
Primaforce's Water Pill
Scivation's Showtime
The last two products are twins with the exact same ingredients, just seem to be put out under a different label.
I am considering giving Prima a go, however, these do not seem like long term use products though. Also, I would have probably gone with p-5-p than straight b6 in this respect as well.
Take Care.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
I have not, but Pumb for sure has. This can be a tricky area and you should know the anatomy of the calf to avoid nerves. I think Bobaslaw and DatBTrue have experience w/calf injections too.
....Now let's keep this on track....CJC/GHRP
datBtrue
Well-known member
Twenty-four hours and half a roll of toilet paper after buying Dandelion Root, Dat reads that the root is a laxative. No sh1t Bob. :dump:
Bobaslaw
Member
Hehehe... That's exactly how I found out about it! LOL... I was sitting on the Can, searching around on my laptop 1 week into taking plain Dandelion Root which was not even standardized
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datBtrue
Well-known member
Hehehe... That's exactly how I found out about it! LOL... I was sitting on the Can, searching around on my laptop 1 week into taking plain Dandelion Root which was not even standardized
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Thats a very plushy setup bro. So lets see you have a magnifying mirror to make your "object appear larger". A glass of beer & a cup of coffee on the stand. And a megaphone for what?
Thanks for sharing... here's a pic of my salle de bain.
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poopypants
Banned
LOL I noticed the megaphone as well.... prob for yellin to the lil lady for more beer and TP, lol.
Bobaslaw
Member
Alright, you win... How can anyone compete with "mountable" wash basins!?
BRB, gotta go wash my hands again, lol.
Very Nice indeed, Dat
wophood
New member
papapumpsd
Well-known member
I knew this thread would go to "SH!T"! :lol:
papapumpsd
Well-known member
I will have to check some paperwork I have on the peps. to verify.
I read that you had a different version (non-DAC) of CJC.....are you using GHRP-6 with you CJC? What results were you expecting? Just making sure we're on the same page.
popica
New member
Hi papa,
thanks very much for the reply !
yes I was using GHRP-6 with it ,now ran out of it,and need to order some morebut what frustrating me the most is thought that I used CJC-1295 thinking it is ling lasting version- my luck I used it every day once or twice-I could end up using it once a wekk with no results at all than.
I cant find any Dac version of it as last time I ordered 4 position substitute without lysine at 30 mg !
I wouldnt order if I just knew that is not the right version !
Now I left with a few vials so will be going only cjc at 3-4/d at 100-150 mcg each to see if there are any difference.
thanks very much for the reply !
yes I was using GHRP-6 with it ,now ran out of it,and need to order some morebut what frustrating me the most is thought that I used CJC-1295 thinking it is ling lasting version- my luck I used it every day once or twice-I could end up using it once a wekk with no results at all than.
I cant find any Dac version of it as last time I ordered 4 position substitute without lysine at 30 mg !
I wouldnt order if I just knew that is not the right version !
Now I left with a few vials so will be going only cjc at 3-4/d at 100-150 mcg each to see if there are any difference.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
You are fine IF dosing 2-3x ED.
The 1/2 life of your CJC is 0.25< X <1 hr., correct? If that is the case, that should allow plenty of time for it to reach the brain and cause GH pulse. If you're dosing 2-3x ED, that is fine I think. IMO, 100mcg CJC-1295 2-3x ED at 100mcg each shot is going to be plenty, even at the shorter 1/2 life.
Below is a post from Dat. Bobaslaw provided some excellent material as well (gets me thinking really) in a few threads down (which you probably read).
""Since GH is released in a pulsatile manner and a higher level of GH is observed between 15 and 30 min after subcutaneous administration of GH-RH analogues, hydrolysis by trypsin-like enzymes could not affect the result of stimulation." - Potent Trypsin-resistant hGH-RH Analogues, JAN IZDEBSKI, J. Peptide Sci. 10: 524–529 (2004)
The analog in this study resisted degradation for 30 minutes. The quote implies that if your analog can last 30 minutes it has tapped out the potential for a single pulse.
Since another pulse won't be generated for about 2.5 - 3 hours analogs that last more than 30 minutes upto 3 hours are not any more beneficial.
You would need an analog that kept growth hormone releasing hormone around beyond 3 hours to have it trigger a second pulse.
Otherwise dosing the 30 minute analog every 3 hours will maximize GH output OR you could just use an analog such as CJC-1295 which lasts for many days and will trigger 8 or so GH pulses a day for several days on a single dose.
By-the-way Bob thanks for posting all of this info in this thread...if for no reason other than you named the amino acid substitution positions and the times I need this info I am always trying to figure out which folder or study that info is on in my archive."
pumbertot
Active member
yes if you have an altered GHRH (GRF 1-29) without the DAC then try 5-6x daily dosings to really get that GH flowing. my next run will be exactly that, it is possible that by doing so you end up with an equally(or greater?) effective method as using 'real' CJC with a lesser cost ('real' CJC costs me twice the price of GRF 1-29).
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Pumb, even with the additional costs of pins and alcohol swabs (~ an extra $.50/day, or $15/month) you'll still have a less expensive 'cjc'. Good stuff.
likkayouth
New member
Would GRF-29, however, be effective in increasing IGF-1 levels the way cjc-1295 does, and do we care whether it would or not?
papapumpsd
Well-known member
likkayouth: Would GRF-29, however, be effective in increasing IGF-1 levels the way cjc-1295 does
Yes, both result in indirect IGF-1 release.
, and do we care whether it would or not?
Yes. If it didn't perform the same positive physiologic response as CJC, then it's not binding and causing GH release.
They both do the same thing....result in GH release.
Yes, both result in indirect IGF-1 release.
, and do we care whether it would or not?
Yes. If it didn't perform the same positive physiologic response as CJC, then it's not binding and causing GH release.
They both do the same thing....result in GH release.
Bobaslaw
Member
Mostly depends on the protocol and frequency of use.
If you use GRF 1-29 1-2 times per week, then NO, there will not be any significant rise in IGF-1. Each inject = 1 pulse.
Even a 1x per day would most likely not contribite to any significant worthwhile increase IMO.
3 times per day. Now that would be better... Would that raise IGF levels comparably to CJC if it were used 3 times per day?
Probably not, as the 24/7 elevated "troughs" of CJC action play a big role "between" the 3 pulses here as well...
Don't get me wrong, it would still good...
Ahh, but what about the fact without elevated troughs GRF 1-29 may possibly allow for better STAT5b signaling pathway resensitization! How might that fit in to possibly tip the scales...
likkayouth
New member
My reason for concern was the following statement from Dat's thread (post #3)
As far as I understand, GRF 1-29 + GHRP-6 would result in greater "intermittent increases in GH", but not in "continuously elevated levels of GH", as would be the result of CJC-1295 + GHRP-6. So the question would be:
Are the pulses from GRF 1-29 + GHRP-6 big enough to "create a rise in IGF-I levels" that is enough to bring a more pronounced anabolic effect than would result from administration of GHSs (GHRP-6 in this case) only.
Bobaslaw
Member
Exactly. That is why you would need to increase the frequency of GRF/GHRP to possibly match the same elevated levels of IGF-1 achieved via CJC/GHRP... mcg for mcg, CJC would seem to win out in this battle due to the added elevated troughs "between" pulses.
But, as per my post above, would that ultimately win out over the lack of troughs using a frequent GRF/GHRP protocol? The "troughlessness" might actually prove to be more beneficial to interpulse STA5b signaling pathway resensitization...
Without question GRF/GHRP creates a greater pulse than either alone.
The rise and constant elevation of IGF-1 would be more dependant on the proper frequency of use, to maintain those levels.
datBtrue
Well-known member
What Papa said. But also one of the reasons why using GRF(1-29) every 3 hours is to get the GH levels down to low (immeasurable) in between pulses. The absence of GH resensitizes the intracellular signaling which will result in more growth "instruction sets".
Also it is hoped that we will get higher levels of locally (in the muscle) produced growth factors (GH, IGF-1 & splice alternative MGF).
All without creating the high levels of systemic circulating IGF-1 that results from just injecting synthetic 22kDa GH.
We don't care to raise liver synthesized IGF-1...we want it produced and used in muscle and if we have other goals such as brain neuron regeneration we want it expressed and used locally there as well.
Studies demonstrate that if you shut off systemic IGF-1 but leave the autocrine/paracrine (i.e. local) pathway open growth will occur. But if you do the reverse, turn off local and leave open systemic growth doesn't really occur. <- this is a generalization
Anyway we could go on about this without covering any new ground so here is something that you may not be aware of.
The depletion of pituitary growth stores is a signal for GH gene expression when GH release is stimulated by GHRH, although GHRH is able to increase gene transcription independently of GH release.
So GHRH will increase transcription BUT that is insufficient to induce post-transcription processing & modification that takes place in the endoplasmic reticulum of the "pro-hormone GH". This "pro-hormone" may be stored but it will never be released.
The depletion of the finished product GH from pituitary stores is the signal needed for "pro-hormone GH" to be finished off and stored as "ready to use" GH.
What never takes place when people just inject synthetic GH?
There is never GHRH to initiate creation of the GH pro-hormone and there is never the depletion of pituitary GH stores of finished GH to initiate refill.
Why does any of this matter?
It might not ...it is just a difference between synthetic administration & doing things naturally.
But I can specultate (with little more than conjecture) that these aforementioned mechanisms of transcription initiation & modification might ALSO be triggered locally in tissue such as muscle concurrent with what is happening in the pituitary.
likkayouth
New member
Viewing IGF-1 levels from a maintenance point of view makes Papa's point easier to understand for me. Thanks.
Does the increased endogenous GH also stimulate increase in IGF-1 receptors in muscle cells? I remember you said that within muscle cells, IGF-1 and it's receptor are created together for the most part, but there are still some receptors that are free when they emerge to the cell membrane. If there is something that increases the amount of receptors, would usage of rIGF-1 be feasible to bind to all free receptors in the muscles?
papapumpsd
Well-known member
11/12/2008
Yesterday I weighed in at 212lbs. I have been eating clean too. I need to eat more protein as soon as I order something that's 1/2 way paletable. Going to try All The Whey's Isolate....Chocolate and maybe Cinnabon and/or Cupcake Batter.
I'm amazed that I squatted 315 for a set of 8 Tuesday. I had the horrible backpumps at warm-up (up to 275). I took a longer than usual rest to hit 315 because my back was so fuqqing flaming.
I'm still having pump issues even after 5-6g Taurine pre-WO. I gotta get this under control cause it's hindering a lot of my workouts.
I will say that my legs are very sore from my 1/2-azzed leg WO Tuesday. Here's what I did:
Squats:
135 x 15-20
225 x 10
275 x 8 (back pump very painful here)
318 x 8 (pump was as painful as a D- on an O-chem exam.)
Leg Extensions (nothing hardcore here):
~110 x 12-15
140 x 12
~160 x 8
Seated Leg Curls:
A couple cheezy azz sets. Maybe up to 130-140 x 8
That's it. Ye ole wheels be fried today yet.
Oh, and I did bi's too.
Yesterday I weighed in at 212lbs. I have been eating clean too. I need to eat more protein as soon as I order something that's 1/2 way paletable. Going to try All The Whey's Isolate....Chocolate and maybe Cinnabon and/or Cupcake Batter.
I'm amazed that I squatted 315 for a set of 8 Tuesday. I had the horrible backpumps at warm-up (up to 275). I took a longer than usual rest to hit 315 because my back was so fuqqing flaming.
I'm still having pump issues even after 5-6g Taurine pre-WO. I gotta get this under control cause it's hindering a lot of my workouts.
I will say that my legs are very sore from my 1/2-azzed leg WO Tuesday. Here's what I did:
Squats:
135 x 15-20
225 x 10
275 x 8 (back pump very painful here)
318 x 8 (pump was as painful as a D- on an O-chem exam.)
Leg Extensions (nothing hardcore here):
~110 x 12-15
140 x 12
~160 x 8
Seated Leg Curls:
A couple cheezy azz sets. Maybe up to 130-140 x 8
That's it. Ye ole wheels be fried today yet.
Oh, and I did bi's too.
pumbertot
Active member
If you bothered to read above his post you would have seen it was in response to my suggestion of using GRF 1-29 + GHRP6 5-6x day so your initial responses about 1x per week or 1x per day are off-topic bro.
Sounds to me that using this combo every 3 hours will do a good job. As I wake during the night at least one to 3 times, again i will have preloaded syringes ready to go then too.
Thats definitely my next cycle, im bored of 'real' CJC already and want to try to enhance my GH release further. Will do a 4 week run of 5iu HGH per day first to give the pituitry a rest.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Hey Pumb (and you other doodz), I have given up flat BB bench because I want to avoid tears and other injuries and excessive wear.
Would doing bench once in a while at higher reps, say 15+, be okay though?
The weight I'd work with is not very much....prob. 225lbs.
Would doing bench once in a while at higher reps, say 15+, be okay though?
The weight I'd work with is not very much....prob. 225lbs.
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
Ditto. I think monday was my last day for BB bench.
Also the ATW flavors are top notch. I am a big fan of the Choc mint and Cinna bun. Blend and Isolate. Cake batter is prertty good. Cinnabun with ground oats is amazeing.
I've gotten most of my teammates using ATW protein because of both the price and flavor.
Bobaslaw
Member
If you bothered to read above his post you would have seen it was in response to my suggestion of using GRF 1-29 + GHRP6 5-6x day so your initial responses about 1x per week or 1x per day are off-topic bro.
Oh look, the topic queen has returned... Welcome back, your highness ..and kiss my A$$! lol :rofl:
PS- Since when did we conform to exact topics here? Have you even seen the toiletries in this thread?
pumbertot
Active member
Wise move. Well probably but stay just inside shoulder width. The sad community Ive become a part of (all pec tear victims) has a few guys that tore even at 100kg so yeah it never 100% safe even then. Though 90% were 305lbs+.
But all were shoulder width and beyond. Btw worth noting a few went by way of weighted deep dips too.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
lol, the hair pulling and dog-paddle slapping that goes on in here!
likkayouth
New member
Mine was around shoulder width, but on a narrow and low bench. The week before the rupture, I was doing a little more weight on a wide and higher bench, felt a lot more stable, and obviously safer.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Ok, forget flat bb bench then. Just not worth it. I have a variety of other exercises I use.
Currently, for a bench, I do incline bb bench. I have read that is much safer. I may start doing decline too.
ragnar
New member
Hey, Papa. I'm not an apologist for the bench press nor am I married to it. But I've been using it safely and effectively for 24 years. The key, I think, is technique.
A guy in the gym was talking to me about his shoulder pain a few months ago. I watched him bench press and he could throw up 225 with what appeared to be solid, controlled form for a high number of reps. But I could see his shoulders tilting anteriorly on each rep, so I asked him to strip some weight off the bar and humor me.
He reduced the weight to 185 and laid down on the bench. I had him fully retract and depress his scapulae. In other words, I had him pinch his shoulder blades together and pull them down toward his hips. I told him that he needed to hold that position for the entire duration of the set. He struggled to get 5 reps.
Though he wasn't happy about pulling a few big wheels off the bar, he stuck with the technique. I saw him last Monday and he had built back up to 215 for reps with a goal of hitting 225 again by the end of the month. Most importantly, his shoulder pain had completely vanished.
When he hits 225 for reps with that technique, I'll share another little tip with him that'll help him build better pecs without ever going beyond 225. If he follows my advice, he should be able to bench press safely and effectively for years to come.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Hey bud, thanks for chiming in! Very interesting. While it's easy for me to tell others to keep their blades pinched, I am not so sure I personally do it when benching. I think so, but haven't really verified.
I will also have to keep in mind that my blades should be depressed too.
I worked out w/my girlfriend yesterday and she was doing incline bench. She's very new to the weights. During her movements, I put my hand on her delts and her right one was "popping" with the motion. She then said it sort of hurts. I had her pinch her blades together and that was the solution.
So yes, even small changes in form can have a significant impact. Maybe I will toy around with your bench technique (very light weight). Thanks bud!
ragnar
New member
I think that it's at least worth a shot, Papa. Nothing has produced thickness in my chest like flat barbell bench presses. In fact, I can't go above 225 on this exercise or else things get way out of proportion.
Here's an easy way to depress the scapulae when you're getting ready for your set:
Slide down to the middle of the bench so that you're reaching backward over your head to grip the bar. Pinch your shoulder blades together. Now press your back into the bench and slide up the bench until you're in your normal starting position. The bench will push your scapulae down toward your hips as you slide up the pad. The bench will also help hold you in that position.
BTW, it's best to get a lift-off once you're in the right position so that you don't lose it when lifting the bar up and out of the saddle.
If you're going to try this with really light weight, it might also be worth trying this:
Pretend the bar is one of those spring-loaded shower curtain rods. Grip the bar tightly and try "shortening" it by attempting to pull your hands together. If you pull hard enough in the bottom position, the contraction will automatically start raising the bar off your chest. Just push to a 3/4 lockout position from there. I've found using this technique with 225 and retracted/depressed scapulae to be a highly efficient exercise.
I lower the bar all the way down, but I don't use an excessively wide grip and I never lower the bar higher than the nipple line.
poopypants
Banned
212 eh? what was your starting weight again?
papapumpsd
Well-known member
I weighed about 200lbs. I think the 12 lbs. I have gained thus far are a combination of fat, water, and muscle.
GenoTank
New member
Whats up Pump?
Just checking in on you and yours, and wondering if everything is going as planned? Was just curious about GHRP-6 and injecting IM or SubQ... Ive been paying some "much needed" attention to what seems like a tiny tear in my lat, and since administering some "tender care" it seems bruised. GHRP-6 intramuscularly... isnt it supposed to help repair? Hehe... and I dropped about 6 pounds and my vascularity has become more pronounced. Thanks for all the help!
Just checking in on you and yours, and wondering if everything is going as planned? Was just curious about GHRP-6 and injecting IM or SubQ... Ive been paying some "much needed" attention to what seems like a tiny tear in my lat, and since administering some "tender care" it seems bruised. GHRP-6 intramuscularly... isnt it supposed to help repair? Hehe... and I dropped about 6 pounds and my vascularity has become more pronounced. Thanks for all the help!
pumbertot
Active member
Yes I have always employed that technique after reading an article by John Parrilo. It did not save me from the pec tear. Maybe it does make the movement safer, but it does not make it safe either. And yes I was benching heavy for 15 years prior to the rupture and never a niggle in my shoulders to speak of.
Dont assume because you have not suffered an injury that means your technique is safe either, just doesnt work that way with the flat benchpress. It is a scientific fact that at the bottom of the movement the pec insertion at the humerous is in a vulnerable position and under extreme stretch regardless of the position of the shoulders/shoulder blades.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Geno, have you been doing your research??? CJC/GHRP are not usful as a site-specific IM. SQ Geno.
This is elementary stuff.....you should know this already. Please read Dat's guide as I have recommended several times. After you have a solid grasp on these two peps, maybe you can tell me why IM isn't beneficial compared to SQ. I'll be waiting.....study up!
GenoTank
New member
It is kind of confusing I guess when there are so many things to read with different views. A gentleman named A.R. suggests that it is localized, and thus gives benefit to the area in concern. Of course I should have listened to Dat in knowing that it is systemic. Thanks for that though I will make sure I really dont know before I ask.
I will make sure I really dont know before I ask.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
It is kind of confusing I guess when there are so many things to read with different views. A gentleman named A.R. suggests that it is localized, and thus gives benefit to the area in concern. Of course I should have listened to Dat in knowing that it is systemic. Thanks for that though
GHSs bind are various places w/in the brain where they bind and lead to the release of GH. With that in mind, why would IM administration be necessary? It's not. Hope that helps dewd.
BTW, I personally trust (and use) Dat's info over AR's....easily.
pumbertot
Active member
Hope that helps dewd.
BTW, I personally trust (and use) Dat's info over AR's....easily.
Actually in his thread im sure Dat mentioned some other local effect GHRP6 has. Unless I dreamt it, but I certainly remember seeing something. Dat please chime in, tell me im not crazy.
Well I am of course but I mean in this instance.
papapumpsd
Well-known member
Actually in his thread im sure Dat mentioned some other local effect GHRP6 has. Unless I dreamt it, but I certainly remember seeing something. Dat please chime in, tell me im not crazy.
Well I am of course but I mean in this instance.
Ok, let's try this: All those who are using GHRP and/or CJC and injecting IM, riase your hands.
Mine is not raised.