Will you go see "Religulous"?

[Rick28]

Moses is a plagarism too. Google "Epic of Gilgamesh"
flood commanded by god
arch with all the animals
even the release and return of a dove

A summerian story I believe.

What would be expected if Genesis were a copy of Gilgamesh?

The first striking thing that one notices when reading the Epic of Gilgamesh is how silly the story is. Part of the silliness is because of the obviously human-like behavior of the gods. They are constantly fighting amongst each other, plotting and deceiving each other. One would expect this part of the story to be removed from a Genesis copy. Therefore, we would expect that the Genesis account would be changed to involve some kind of judgment, since Yahweh (God) does not capriciously destroy humans, as was done in the Gilgamesh epic. It would, therefore, make sense that Noah would be chosen for his righteousness although Utnapishtim was chosen for no apparent reason.

Even with these major changes not considered, there are many dissimilarities that would not be expected from a story copied from another story. For example, the timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted nearly a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.

The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.

After examining the similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis flood account of the Bible. Although there are a number of similarities between the accounts, the vast majority of similarities would be expected to be found in any ancient flood account. Only two similarities stand out as being unique - landing of the boats on a mountain and the use of birds to determine when the flood subsided. However, both of these similarities differ in important details. In addition, there are great differences in the timing of each of the flood accounts and the nature of the vessels. Why these details would be so drastically changed is a problem for those who claim that the Genesis flood was derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

There are a couple possible explanations for the existence of multiple ancient flood accounts. One - that Genesis was a copy of Gilgamesh - has already been discussed and does not seem to fit the available data. The other possible explanation is that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations. The story is a rather silly myth that bears little resemblance to reality. In contrast, the Genesis account is a logical, seemingly factual account of a historical event. It lacks the obvious mythological aspects of the Gilgamesh epic.

 

[whiskers]

you know your ****! I thought only fellow jews knew that.

thanks man

I know my sh*t so well I've earned the right to be an as*hole

(this topic is a basically a hobby of mine)

 

[Rick28]

thanks man

I know my sh*t so well I've earned the right to be an as*hole

(this topic is a basically a hobby of mine)

I know mines too.

 

[whiskers]

What would be expected if Genesis were a copy of Gilgamesh?

The first striking thing that one notices when reading the Epic of Gilgamesh is how silly the story is. Part of the silliness is because of the obviously human-like behavior of the gods. They are constantly fighting amongst each other, plotting and deceiving each other. One would expect this part of the story to be removed from a Genesis copy. Therefore, we would expect that the Genesis account would be changed to involve some kind of judgment, since Yahweh (God) does not capriciously destroy humans, as was done in the Gilgamesh epic. It would, therefore, make sense that Noah would be chosen for his righteousness although Utnapishtim was chosen for no apparent reason.

Even with these major changes not considered, there are many dissimilarities that would not be expected from a story copied from another story. For example, the timings of the flood accounts are vastly different. The Gilgamesh flood took only 3 weeks, whereas the Genesis flood lasted nearly a year. The Gilgamesh flood included several 7 day long events. This "perfect" number is found throughout the Bible, so would be expected to be retained if copied from the epic of Gilgamesh. However, the Bible uses numbers like 40 and 150 - much longer timeframes.

The boats in the two accounts are quite different. The Gilgamesh boat was an unseaworthy cube with a slate roof. Obviously, such a design would immediately flip over or roll around in the water. In contrast, the ark had dimensions that were ideal for a seaworthy ship. This might be surprising, since both cultures were not noted for their nautical skills. It is obvious that the gods of the Sumerians had no expertise in shipbuilding.

After examining the similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis flood account of the Bible. Although there are a number of similarities between the accounts, the vast majority of similarities would be expected to be found in any ancient flood account. Only two similarities stand out as being unique - landing of the boats on a mountain and the use of birds to determine when the flood subsided. However, both of these similarities differ in important details. In addition, there are great differences in the timing of each of the flood accounts and the nature of the vessels. Why these details would be so drastically changed is a problem for those who claim that the Genesis flood was derived from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

There are a couple possible explanations for the existence of multiple ancient flood accounts. One - that Genesis was a copy of Gilgamesh - has already been discussed and does not seem to fit the available data. The other possible explanation is that the flood was a real event in the history of mankind that was passed down through the generations of different cultures. If so, the Gilgamesh account seems to have undergone some rather radical transformations. The story is a rather silly myth that bears little resemblance to reality. In contrast, the Genesis account is a logical, seemingly factual account of a historical event. It lacks the obvious mythological aspects of the Gilgamesh epic.

I would say attempts were made to make the story more marketable. There just isnt enough water to completely cover the earth.
There are thousands of species of just butterflies. Even if all the animals assembled themselves and boarded that boat willingly like in evan almight, that wooden ship would have to be so f*cking big theres no way it could be built. and that's overlooking caring for the animals, air, food, removal of fecal matter and urine. With the numbers of animals that would have to be on board it doesnt make that story improbable, it makes it impossible



Most people think a monotheistic religions are more practical and easy to defend, but really pantheism eliminates a lot of philosophical problems. for instance the Problem of evil is gone. the gods are fighting could be an explanation for why things dont always go right.




The notion that it could be an actual event recorded by two separate authors is a very good conclusion. but once you look at the story of christ you'll likely conclude that its all just a plagarism. check out that movie man. you seem like a perfect candidate for it

 

[somewhatgifted]

It seems to me sometimes we need to focus that we are all more or less the same. If we focus on our differences we then find reasons to hurt others and in turn hurt ourselves.

The world is a global community take away any one thing completely and you hurt the whole (sum of its parts).

Now this doesnt speak for the ideaologies that exist to create a sense of separation as that seems to be at the center of most if not all problems IMO.

As a very crude simple example religions are like one big pie, no matter how many times you slice it they all still touch one piece of truth in the center... Its where they choose to deviate or separate that makes them different.
eg. I wear white you wear red.. kill the reds! or the non white wearing!

We are all born, under the same sun with the same need for love and other human contact.

There is only one truth and it seems many religions touch it, for without life and a planet what you believe wont matter in this human physical experience.
It doesnt matter what you believe but i find it an error to terminate life and destroy the planet because without those things we wont be here to debate whos right.

God, spirit, allah, the universe, the stars believe what you will but know that we are all made for living and not for killing or else humans would be a food group. lol.

It seems the truest religions IMO focus on personal peace, and a guidline for happiness (life for dummies) too much time worrying about who isnt right only takes away from anything worth lving for.

Inversely does a man or woman need a book or building or guidline to live a fruitful, peaceful and happy life? Can one learn of this universe and life experiece without direction, well i believe so.

 

[Rick28]

I would say attempts were made to make the story more marketable. There just isnt enough water to completely cover the earth.
There are thousands of species of just butterflies. Even if all the animals assembled themselves and boarded that boat willingly like in evan almight, that wooden ship would have to be so f*cking big theres no way it could be built. and that's overlooking caring for the animals, air, food, removal of fecal matter and urine. With the numbers of animals that would have to be on board it doesnt make that story improbable, it makes it impossible......

I believe it was enough water for a Worldwide Flood. Since it rained 40 days and forty nights. That rain wasn't the only source of water. The Bible mentions that they were killed from water inside of the Earth too.

Now about the size of the boat and the animals. I believe Noah was smart enough to take babies instead of adult animals on board since they sleep longer. The doo doo and and urine would be kept to a minimum. All of the species that we have today weren't on the boat just the basic "kinds." So it makes it more believable you see.

II'll definetly look into that movie though.

 

[whiskers]

I believe it was enough water for a Worldwide Flood. Since it rained 40 days and forty nights. That rain wasn't the only source of water. The Bible mentions that they were killed from water inside of the Earth too.

Now about the size of the boat and the animals. I believe Noah was smart enough to take babies instead of adult animals on board since they sleep longer. The doo doo and and urine would be kept to a minimum. All of the species that we have today weren't on the boat just the basic "kinds." So it makes it more believable you see.

II'll definetly look into that movie though.

...eh, you have to give into evolution to support that stance. still rediculous in my eyes though. i just cant see it being worked out to a managable scenario

 

[Rick28]

...eh, you have to give into evolution to support that stance...

Umm no I don't, you seem to think so. so please explain?

 

[whiskers]

Umm no I don't, you seem to think so. so please explain?

you said only the basic types of animals. so how could we now have thousands of types of butterflys?

Let alone humans. I havent studied the bible in a long time so correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamm was the black woman on the ark to preserve her race right? So we should only have malatos and whites after this event. ...what about all the other races. And why does intensive interbreeding always work out in the bible? If you **** family members, you're kids are gonna be tarded, mentally or physically. The gene pool is too small.
adam and eve somehow pullled it off, as well as Lot and his daughters, who got him drunk enough to screw both of them after god burned sodom and ghommorah. I think there are other events like this in the bible but I cant recall

 

[Omen]

Evolution is just as retarded as Creationism, both THEORIES are MAJORLY flawed.

Remember slaves, if religion wasn't as popular as it is today, you'd all be baker acted......one day....

 

[whiskers]

And rainbows are not gods bow hung in the sky as a promise not to kill us with a flood again lol. Its what happens when light spread into its full spectrum

I gotta hit the sack man, its been fun.

 

[Omen]

And rainbows are not gods bow hung in the sky as a promise not to kill us with a flood again lol. Its what happens when light spread into its full spectrum

I gotta hit the sack man, its been fun.

I thought it was the Asexual peeping tom(it watches EVERYONE right?) wearing it's colors.....:afro:

 

[whiskers]

Evolution is just as retarded as Creationism, both THEORIES are MAJORLY flawed.

Remember slaves, if religion wasn't as popular as it is today, you'd all be baker acted......one day....

to go ahead and doom myself to redicule, look up the Annunaki. The summerians say they created us in test tubes. pretty interesting stuff. I by no means put any eggs in that basket. I'm just saying, its one creation possibility.


Do you lean in any direction as to how we got here Omen?

I really dont have one
"Its better to have no beliefs than false ones."
Thomas Jefferson i think

 

[Rick28]

you said only the basic types of animals. so how could we now have thousands of types of butterflys?

Let alone humans. I havent studied the bible in a long time so correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamm was the black woman on the ark to preserve her race right? So we should only have malatos and whites after this event. ...what about all the other races. And why does intensive interbreeding always work out in the bible? If you **** family members, you're kids are gonna be tarded, mentally or physically. The gene pool is too small.
adam and eve somehow pullled it off, as well as Lot and his daughters, who got him drunk enough to screw both of them after god burned sodom and ghommorah. I think there are other events like this in the bible but I cant recall

Ham was one of Noah's 3 sons. Inbreeding or incest was outlawed after Moses probably because of genetics problems whereas in the beginning of the creation, this wasn't the case. The reason why we have different races is due to location, the equator, melanin in the skin, etc. At the Tower of Babel when everyone separated to varous parts of the world is where the different races come from. Blacks have more melanin in their skin which explains why we're darker than white folk. LOL.

 

[Rick28]

The reason why there are different types of butterflies and animals is due to location, environment adjusting, etc. Certain animals can't live in certain climates even though they're the same type of animal even if those 2 animals share a similar genetic make and chromosomes.

 

[Tyler1]

Christianity is a form of paganism. Thats just all there is to it. Zeigeist lays it out better than any other source I've seen.

What Jesus taught was a from of paganism or was it what man did to his teachings after the fact?

 

[Tyler1]

weird....you seem to be quoting the old testament - which we have already been told to disregard.

List what sins are (useful detailed list please) using only the new testament.

You heard what I had to say about the Old Testament. But when you keep brining it up like this it says something doesn't it?

 

[dsade]

You heard what I had to say about the Old Testament. But when you keep brining it up like this it says something doesn't it?

Yes...that you contradict yourself and/or bring in beliefs out of thinner air than just the bible.

EDIT: I'll make this a bit clearer...to first discuss the concept of god, you have to define god. I am just jumping ahead and assuming that you think that god is, among other things, perfect. Therefore your words concerning the OT where you said the New Testament "destroys" the old so it no longer applied implies that there was something either wrong with the OT, or that god "changed his mind" - meaning he was/is NOT perfect.

ie. contradiction.

 

[whiskers]

What Jesus taught was a from of paganism or was it what man did to his teachings after the fact?

He himself is a pagan god.
He is a solar deity. We talking astrotheology here.

He is not a real person. He's an elaborate story built around the sun.


The Cross comes from the cross of the zodiac.

 

[whiskers]

Ham was one of Noah's 3 sons. Inbreeding or incest was outlawed after Moses probably because of genetics problems whereas in the beginning of the creation, this wasn't the case. The reason why we have different races is due to location, the equator, melanin in the skin, etc. At the Tower of Babel when everyone separated to varous parts of the world is where the different races come from. Blacks have more melanin in their skin which explains why we're darker than white folk. LOL.

oooooh i didnt know you were african american just didnt look closely at your picture lol.
What do you make of Mark 7:24-30?
Doesnt all the racism and slavery and rotten **** in the bible bother you?


(before someone misunderstands my post or whatever, understand that I am by no means racist. The fact that its in religion is one of the major problems I have with it.)



The melanin thing works for some races but its not that great of an explanation. for instance what about eskimos?
I think different skin types thrive in certain climates and thus migrate there.


If you really want to find some offensive stuff I can direct you to some quotes by early lds prophets and scriptures. The lds church was due in the supreme court over their discrimination policies at BYU. Fortunately for them, one week prior, "god" told the prophet that the curse had been lifted and that blacks could recieve the priesthood.
Their tax excempt status at byu was to be revoked if they did not allow blacks to attend.

This whole genesis bit about africans being the cursed seed of Cain, the inventor of murder, is disgusting.


(I have a feeling someone is gonna jump all over this post and try to turn me into the bad guy and this thread will be locked. I hope that doesnt end up being the case. This has been fun. You're a cool guy Rick.)

 

[whiskers]

Here's an interesting picture, dont you think so tyler?




Invalid Link Removed



edit: in a golden frame lol

 

[Rick28]

oooooh i didnt know you were african american just didnt look closely at your picture lol.
What do you make of Mark 7:24-30?
Doesnt all the racism and slavery and rotten **** in the bible bother you?


(before someone misunderstands my post or whatever, understand that I am by no means racist. The fact that its in religion is one of the major problems I have with it.)



The melanin thing works for some races but its not that great of an explanation. for instance what about eskimos?
I think different skin types thrive in certain climates and thus migrate there.


If you really want to find some offensive stuff I can direct you to some quotes by early lds prophets and scriptures. The lds church was due in the supreme court over their discrimination policies at BYU. Fortunately for them, one week prior, "god" told the prophet that the curse had been lifted and that blacks could recieve the priesthood.
Their tax excempt status at byu was to be revoked if they did not allow blacks to attend.

This whole genesis bit about africans being the cursed seed of Cain, the inventor of murder, is disgusting.


(I have a feeling someone is gonna jump all over this post and try to turn me into the bad guy and this thread will be locked. I hope that doesnt end up being the case. This has been fun. You're a cool guy Rick.)

I am so NOT offended but I gotta go real quick but will be back to answer all the points!

 

[dsade]

I was raised mormon, and got to see that kind of scripture justified racism constantly.

 

[whiskers]

I was raised mormon, and got to see that kind of scripture justified racism constantly.

Me too. Almost went on a missioin lol.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said things like:
"Blacks will never be more than a servants servant."
and that if a white man were to mate with a black woman, god would kill him on the spot. I've seen plenty of porn that has led me to believe otherwise


Religulous talks about the part in the Book of Mormon where some native americans become white lol.
The verse was actually edited. It used to say "they became a white and delightsome people". It now reads, "they became a light and delightsome people."
So still the color change is in there, but its now worded in such a way that if someone were to accuse it of being racist, they could say that's a misinterpretation.

 

[grila jujitsu]

i really wish all of you guys would read Nichia! I think many of you would see eye to eye with him and others may gain some incite in to your life and may open your eyes!

Thanks
GJJ

 

[dsade]

i really wish all of you guys would read Nichia! I think many of you would see eye to eye with him and others may gain some incite in to your life and may open your eyes!

Thanks
GJJ

hard to tell (no googles around) but are you refering to Nietzsche?

One of the most powerful influences in my life, and a constant (eternally recurring?) cycle of rereading to catch more subtleties and gems of thought.

 

[whiskers]

hard to tell (no googles around) but are you refering to Nietzsche?

One of the most powerful influences in my life, and a constant (eternally recurring?) cycle of rereading to catch more subtleties and gems of thought.

Yeah all I found was Nichia Corporation.


What books of Nietzsche do you like dsade?
"The Antichrist" was a fun read.
I started "The Will to Power" but got busy and dropped it. I've been meaning to pick it up again

 

[Tyler1]

Yes...that you contradict yourself and/or bring in beliefs out of thinner air than just the bible.

EDIT: I'll make this a bit clearer...to first discuss the concept of god, you have to define god. I am just jumping ahead and assuming that you think that god is, among other things, perfect. Therefore your words concerning the OT where you said the New Testament "destroys" the old so it no longer applied implies that there was something either wrong with the OT, or that god "changed his mind" - meaning he was/is NOT perfect.

ie. contradiction.

I'm a contradiction I guess, I'm not sure why, but so be it.
Jesus taught that the old ways are replaced by the new, and eye for an eye is gone, time to turn the other cheek. The old was bsed on works, salvation by works is gone.

If you're getting offended by my posts, don't ,I'm not taking this to personal, just shooting the breeze.

 

[Tyler1]

He himself is a pagan god.
He is a solar deity. We talking astrotheology here.

He is not a real person. He's an elaborate story built around the sun.


The Cross comes from the cross of the zodiac.

Well, we aren't going to agree on this one .

 

[Tyler1]

Here's an interesting picture, dont you think so tyler?




Invalid Link Removed

Nice.

The discussion took the turn I figured it would.

 

[whiskers]

Well, we aren't going to agree on this one .

Its far too much for me to care to type lol. watch zeitgeist. Religulous also talkes about it.

Horus, the sun god of egypt
holy ghost told his mother what was to happen
born of a virgin on december twenty fifth
three kings followed a star and adored him with gifts
prodigal teacher at twelve
baptised at thirty by anap, who was beheaded
had twelve apostles
was refered to as The Light, the lamb, etc
betrayed by typhon and sold for silver
crucified and buried in a tomb for three days
was resurrected

The story of horus is likely the primary foundation for Judeo-Christian theology. ....there are sixteen more of these stories....far predating Christ




"It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
-Pope Leo X

 

[whiskers]

Nice.

The discussion took the turn I figured it would.

Are you Catholic? If not just ignore that post

 

[grila jujitsu]

hard to tell (no googles around) but are you refering to Nietzsche?

One of the most powerful influences in my life, and a constant (eternally recurring?) cycle of rereading to catch more subtleties and gems of thought.

yes, Nietzsche. sorry i never could remember how to spell his name! coupled with the fact that i am a poor speller anyways! lol

I love Nietzsche, I reread his book the genealogy of morality every year, just to keep things in "perspective". I find something new every time i read it!

I think Nietzsche Ascetic truth, works perfectly in the conversation that is going on in this thread!

Thanks
GJJ

 

[Tyler1]

Its far too much for me to care to type lol. watch zeitgeist. Religulous also talkes about it.

Horus, the sun god of egypt
holy ghost told his mother what was to happen
born of a virgin on december twenty fifth
three kings followed a star and adored him with gifts
prodigal teacher at twelve
baptised at thirty by anap, who was beheaded
had twelve apostles
was refered to as The Light, the lamb, etc
betrayed by typhon and sold for silver
crucified and buried in a tomb for three days
was resurrected

The story of horus is likely the primary foundation for Judeo-Christian theology. ....there are sixteen more of these stories....far predating Christ




"It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
-Pope Leo X

There are a bunch of Horus gods, find me the link from a site that has the stuff you wrote above, I couldn't find one.
I'd like to see all 16 if I could.

I read horus is the catch all name of many of their gods including small cults, I'd be skeptical, as we should be about all this stuff.

 

[dsade]

I'm a contradiction I guess, I'm not sure why, but so be it.
Jesus taught that the old ways are replaced by the new, and eye for an eye is gone, time to turn the other cheek. The old was bsed on works, salvation by works is gone.

If you're getting offended by my posts, don't ,I'm not taking this to personal, just shooting the breeze.

One thing I don't get in these discussions is personally offended.

By contradicting yourself, though, you do forfeit your claim to rationality and any expectation of having your ideas taken remotely seriously.

Re: Horus...I want to open an Egyptian brothel, and call it "Ho-R-Us".

>rimshot<

 

[whiskers]

There are a bunch of Horus gods, find me the link from a site that has the stuff you wrote above, I couldn't find one.
I'd like to see all 16 if I could.

I read horus is the catch all name of many of their gods including small cults, I'd be skeptical, as we should be about all this stuff.

they're all their own separate deal. watch this ten min vid

[nomedia]www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw[/nomedia]

there's a lot more to it than even this clip shows

 

[dsade]

There are a bunch of Horus gods, find me the link from a site that has the stuff you wrote above, I couldn't find one.
I'd like to see all 16 if I could.

I read horus is the catch all name of many of their gods including small cults, I'd be skeptical, as we should be about all this stuff.

My take is actually a blended polytheism/monotheism. Horus having many "incarnation", each symbolizing an archetype of human character.

 

[Tyler1]

One thing I don't get in these discussions is personally offended.

By contradicting yourself, though, you do forfeit your claim to rationality and any expectation of having your ideas taken remotely seriously.

Re: Horus...I want to open an Egyptian brothel, and call it "Ho-R-Us".

>rimshot<

Well there you go... I was waiting for some thing to null my beliefs. What's the contradiction, that I I don't take the OldT in complete litereal translation. Nice one, my pastor hasn't even did that.

You are telling me that my ideas aren't what...Christian ideas.

n

 

[Tyler1]

Its far too much for me to care to type lol. watch zeitgeist. Religulous also talkes about it.

Horus, the sun god of egypt
holy ghost told his mother what was to happen
born of a virgin on december twenty fifth
three kings followed a star and adored him with gifts
prodigal teacher at twelve
baptised at thirty by anap, who was beheaded
had twelve apostles
was refered to as The Light, the lamb, etc
betrayed by typhon and sold for silver
crucified and buried in a tomb for three days
was resurrected

The story of horus is likely the primary foundation for Judeo-Christian theology. ....there are sixteen more of these stories....far predating Christ




"It has served us well, this myth of Christ."
-Pope Leo X

I saw the video link below, no sound on my computer. Do you have the reasearch on this stuff, authors etc? I hate whenm people call "source", which I'm not but i'll really take a look at this stuff, if you don't want to waste your time on it no big deal I can probably find it somewhere.

 

[dsade]

Well there you go... I was waiting for some thing to null my beliefs. What's the contradiction, that I I don't take the OldT in complete litereal translation. Nice one, my pastor hasn't even did that.

You are telling me that my ideas aren't what...Christian ideas.

n

I am then asking your opinion on the authorship of the bible...just a "neat book", or perfect, eternal, and divinely written through the hand of man by god?

And, as already asked, by what criteria do you then decide which parts of the bible are just "cool stories" and what is to be taken literally? Flip a coin?

Did Jesus really "raise the dead" or was it just some kind of parable. Were any miracles performed at all...and if so, how do you know (other than "a book says so"..a book that you have already admitted is not to be taken literally.)

 

[whiskers]

Invalid Link Removed
click #8, then #3



perfect for this thread, and i know omen will enjoy it lol

 

[Tyler1]

I am then asking your opinion on the authorship of the bible...just a "neat book", or perfect, eternal, and divinely written through the hand of man by god?

And, as already asked, by what criteria do you then decide which parts of the bible are just "cool stories" and what is to be taken literally? Flip a coin?

Did Jesus really "raise the dead" or was it just some kind of parable. Were any miracles performed at all...and if so, how do you know (other than "a book says so"..a book that you have already admitted is not to be taken literally.)

The bible is the word of God, I won't take the OldT and use it to change what Jesus was preached, and they are very different books. When Jesus died the temple curtain was torn seperating the new from the old. The OldT contains prophecy that predicted the life of Jesus. And it shows how people trusted God in ancient times. I don't spend much time trying to find fault in what the OldT says, and I agree it has some stuff that maked no sense to me.

Does this make me not a Christian?

The NewT is the word of God also and contains the Word to find salvation. Many times the NewT talks about the old way was using works to find salvation, and that there is no way that workds will get you anywhere.

My criteria is to use what Jesus taught, that tells me what I need to compare it to.

I have a feeling this is still going to make me a contradiction .

 

[Rick28]

Yes...that you contradict yourself and/or bring in beliefs out of thinner air than just the bible.

EDIT: I'll make this a bit clearer...to first discuss the concept of god, you have to define god. I am just jumping ahead and assuming that you think that god is, among other things, perfect. Therefore your words concerning the OT where you said the New Testament "destroys" the old so it no longer applied implies that there was something either wrong with the OT, or that god "changed his mind" - meaning he was/is NOT perfect.

ie. contradiction.

The NT doesn't completely do away with the OT. Laws that applied to OT people are no longer in use for ex: animal sacrifies for sin. God has dealt with man differently throughout time. This is called dispensationalism. The NT quotes the OT in numerous places. God changing his mind does no prove that he is not perfect. The nature of God is what doesn't change.

 

[Rick28]

oooooh i didnt know you were african american just didnt look closely at your picture lol.
What do you make of Mark 7:24-30?
Doesnt all the racism and slavery and rotten **** in the bible bother you?


(before someone misunderstands my post or whatever, understand that I am by no means racist. The fact that its in religion is one of the major problems I have with it.)



The melanin thing works for some races but its not that great of an explanation. for instance what about eskimos?
I think different skin types thrive in certain climates and thus migrate there.


If you really want to find some offensive stuff I can direct you to some quotes by early lds prophets and scriptures. The lds church was due in the supreme court over their discrimination policies at BYU. Fortunately for them, one week prior, "god" told the prophet that the curse had been lifted and that blacks could recieve the priesthood.
Their tax excempt status at byu was to be revoked if they did not allow blacks to attend.

This whole genesis bit about africans being the cursed seed of Cain, the inventor of murder, is disgusting.


(I have a feeling someone is gonna jump all over this post and try to turn me into the bad guy and this thread will be locked. I hope that doesnt end up being the case. This has been fun. You're a cool guy Rick.)

Ok
Mark 7:24-30 is referring to unclean spirits (devils).
I don't see racism in the Bible but when it comes to slavery, the Jews were enslaved for disobedience to God. That shows me there'sa consequence for sin.

I don't think you're a racist by any means, I see someone challenging me and I love it.

I know all about the Mormons, their racist history and how all black people were cursed to be born with dark skin. (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5:21-22) Whenever I see a black mormon, I shake my head because he didn't do any research. Mormons are NOT christians!

About Cain's curse, the Bible doesn't say what the curse was. It could've been anything.

About the tax status, it's called 501c3. Since mormonism is not christian, it's an organization (business) just like the Watchtower. A real Bible believing church would not incorporate!

 

[dsade]

Ok
Mark 7:24-30 is referring to unclean spirits (devils).
I don't see racism in the Bible but when it comes to slavery, the Jews were enslaved for disobedience to God. That shows me there'sa consequence for sin.

I don't think you're a racist by any means, I see someone challenging me and I love it.

I know all about the Mormons, their racist history and how all black people were cursed to be born with dark skin. (Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 5:21-22) Whenever I see a black mormon, I shake my head because he didn't do any research. Mormons are NOT christians!

About Cain's curse, the Bible doesn't say what the curse was. It could've been anything.

About the tax status, it's called 501c3. Since mormonism is not christian, it's an organization (business) just like the Watchtower. A real Bible believing church would not incorporate!

Every single jew, including 2 month old babies, were disobedient to god and therefore deserved to be enslaved?? Seriously?

 

[whiskers]

I would argue that its absolutely Christian. I think, at least some of the old teachings (adam/god doctorine) make a lot more sense out of the bible.


Is your objection to them being Christian that they dont believe in the trinity?

 

[Rick28]

Me too. Almost went on a missioin lol.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said things like:
"Blacks will never be more than a servants servant."
and that if a white man were to mate with a black woman, god would kill him on the spot. I've seen plenty of porn that has led me to believe otherwise


Religulous talks about the part in the Book of Mormon where some native americans become white lol.
The verse was actually edited. It used to say "they became a white and delightsome people". It now reads, "they became a light and delightsome people."
So still the color change is in there, but its now worded in such a way that if someone were to accuse it of being racist, they could say that's a misinterpretation.

I have those racist quotes, I have books on Mormonism and videos. Debating Mormons is a lot easier than a JW.

 

[Rick28]

I would argue that its absolutely Christian. I think, at least some of the old teachings (adam/god doctorine) make a lot more sense out of the bible.


Is your objection to them being Christian that they dont believe in the trinity?

The objection is not to them believing in a trinity. It's because they've departed from Biblical Christianity by teaching another gospel. The Bible clearly states:

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galations 1

Mormons teach that man can work his way to godhood and that god was once a man. If God was one a man then this proves that he is not outside of time and had a beginning. The God of the Bible has NO beginning! The Bible clearly teaches that God is Spirit! Satan sad to Eve in the Garden that she can be like god. Sadly Mormonism is a doctrine of devils!

 

[dsade]

Honestly, if god were once a man I would have more respect for the idea - rather than some accident of "birth" or "creation" or whatever passes for a diluted idea of origin.

Much like self-made men vs trust fund babies.

 

[whiskers]

btw the reason I went after this issue with you rather than running from it is I've never asked an African American for their opinion on it. Utah is freakishly white haha. Half our African American populace plays for the Jazz lol



It seems extremely odd to me that African Americans would adopt Christianity, rather than loathe it for being the religion of their ancestors captors.

cool related quote:
"I prayed for freedom for twenty years,
but recieved no answer until I prayed with my legs."
~Fredrick Douglas