Palin...Book Banner?

[EasyEJL]

my thought would be that the government should stay out of a small communbity issue like this. Hey, lets try the democratic thing and at the library if a certain # of complaints are made, allow the community to vote on it. Also, lets have a little parental responsibility, if you dont want your kid exposed to it, dont let them.

Easy, I am awfully surprised with you, for someone with such a red lean, you love government involvement.

Actually with this one i'm just exploring the thought process honestly. I never considered this at all (selection of what is in the library) before this. Really i'm not sure how that decision should be made. I can understand in a huge regional library that has a large budget that the choice of what to carry is different, but does/should the librarian have sole discretion as to what is on the shelves? They dont represent the community directly as they aren't elected. And since we've generally defined obscenity as something that goes against community standards, the community should be able to decide. just as some communities dont allow "adult bookstores" or vibrator sales, and that is something that the local government decides.

Dunno really, its an interesting topic.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i just hate canadians, thats nationalism not racism

If a white man creates a college fund solely for poor white children, he is a racist. if a black man creates a college fund solely for poor black children, he is a hero to "his community"........

In Sociology of the Media there is a concept called "Selective Perception/Reception", basically a more epistemological way of saying, "You'll find what you're looking for". Viewing most of your posts surrounding the African-American community, I feel this is convoluting your lens of the world.

You tend to overgeneralize in matters of ethnicity and policy combining - not necessarily racist perse, but short-sighted. At this point, you will say that you have black friends and so on, as if that mutes the derisive tone of many of your posts (I recall your opinions on crime and birth rates in the African American Community).

At any rate, to address your concern, white (strange terms to be using) college funds are created on a daily basis; though the selectees are often delineated upon socioeconomic and geographic lines, these criterion often automatically preclude many from the black community. For example, the rates of Native Americans and multi-generational slave descendant Blacks at Ivy League average about 1% and 6% respectively over the past quarter century (Asian contingency is approximately 23%); these schools exhibit obvious exclusivity upon many lines, and yet have scholarship funds - could one not say these are "white scholarships"? And, yet, these schools are the pinnacle of the education system.

Obviously, the variance in Ivy League acceptance runs much deeper than explicit racial lines - which is exactly my point: The one you are missing. Racial relationships are incredibly reflexive, on both a micro- and macroscopic level; your tendency to overgeneralize and stereotype completely attenuates the complexity of ethnic-relations to a (no pun intended) black-and-white matter.

Michelle Obama speaks of needing to do more for the black community. Not needing to do more for poor people, but the black community in particular. Is that not racism?

I'm sure you could attempt to be more incorrect, though it would be difficult; to my knowledge, Michelle and Barack Obama are fervent supporters of class equity. Ironically enough for you, Marxist doctrine subsumes racial inequities beneath the larger umbrella of class inequity - positing it as the predominant struggle through which all other struggles must be mediated.

 

[AE14]

Actually with this one i'm just exploring the thought process honestly. I never considered this at all (selection of what is in the library) before this. Really i'm not sure how that decision should be made. I can understand in a huge regional library that has a large budget that the choice of what to carry is different, but does/should the librarian have sole discretion as to what is on the shelves? They dont represent the community directly as they aren't elected. And since we've generally defined obscenity as something that goes against community standards, the community should be able to decide. just as some communities dont allow "adult bookstores" or vibrator sales, and that is something that the local government decides.

Dunno really, its an interesting topic.

I dont think it should be the librarian either, to be honest. I actually think a community vote is the most representative.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm sure you could attempt to be more incorrect, though it would be difficult; to my knowledge, Michelle and Barack Obama are fervent supporters of class equity. Ironically enough for you, Marxist doctrine subsumes racial inequities beneath the larger umbrella of class inequity - positing it as the predominant struggle through which all other struggles must be mediated.

Really this should be in another thread and so I wont respond to the rest as it would take a while, however if you believe what you wrote above I suggest you look at and read and listen to some of michelle's speeches and writings. A rather different perpective emerges in her works. I don't say the same of Barack, as he is much more as you suggest, a marxist.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Really this should be in another thread and so I wont respond to the rest as it would take a while, however if you believe what you wrote above I suggest you look at and read and listen to some of michelle's speeches and writings. A rather different perpective emerges in her works. I don't say the same of Barack, as he is much more as you suggest, a marxist.

You mean speeches like her Convention speech, where she doesn't mention race aside from once? And even then in respects to Martin Luther King?

 

[RobInKuwait]

I think you miss the point. There is a difference between banning a book and simply not carrying it. It should not be for the government to make that decision. I always thought the right was for less government interference? hmmmmm :think:

What is the difference between banning it and simply not carrying it? Do you think if I went to my local library and ordered a copy of hustler that they would comply?

No. There are community standards that are enforced in public libraries. Since every community is difference, the decision to "ban" a book should be made at the community level.

A public library is paid for by everybody, including me. My money should not be spent of smut for children. Its not a question of "government interference", its a question of spending public money on the community.

 

[RobInKuwait]

You mean speeches like her Convention speech, where she doesn't mention race aside from once? And even then in respects to Martin Luther King?

Is the US in a better state when race is a non-issue or the defining issue?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Is the US in a better state when race is a non-issue or the defining issue?

Defining issue to whom? Believe it or not, an incorporeal God-Head of morality does not define racial stereotypes, and then unilaterally transmit those ideals to individual agents.

 

[EasyEJL]

You mean speeches like her Convention speech, where she doesn't mention race aside from once? And even then in respects to Martin Luther King?

Hmm gee whiz she didn't in a carefully orchestrated and not written by her speech in which she is trying to convince mainstream america that she isn't racist. imagine that. Try any others of hers.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Hmm gee whiz she didn't in a carefully orchestrated and not written by her speech in which she is trying to convince mainstream america that she isn't racist. imagine that. Try any others of hers.

Hmm, gee whiz: Maybe you could look at other interviews where she explicitly states she hopes race will not be the defining issue in this election. She openly cites disparities - whether they be socioeconomic or otherwise - between the majority and "black communities", but that does not make her racist.

As I said, 'Selective Reception/Perception'.

 

[strategicmove]

Hmm, gee whiz: Maybe you could look at other interviews where she explicitly states she hopes race will not be the defining issue in this election. She openly cites disparities - whether they be socioeconomic or otherwise - between the majority and "black communities", but that does not make her racist.

As I said, 'Selective Reception/Perception'.

:goodpost:

 

[RobInKuwait]

Defining issue to whom?

Exactly. Defining issue to whom? You said race was not mentioned once in her speech, so apparently not her.

Believe it or not, an incorporeal God-Head of morality does not define racial stereotypes, and then unilaterally transmit those ideals to individual agents.

....not sure where that came from. I asked you if you would rather have race be a defining issue or not. Based upon the debates, press coverage, and national conventions, race is not the defining issue of this election cycle. Yes, Barry is black, but affirmative action and other racial issues are peripheral, if mentioned at all. The war, the economy, taxes, and health care seem to be the hot button issues this cycle.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Exactly. Defining issue to whom? You said race was not mentioned once in her speech, so apparently not her.

For brevity's sake, what inspired you to begin this train of thought? Irrespective of the political climate, I made a comment as towards my perception of Easy's racial inclination; I believe you have, and continue to, misconstrue my point.

....not sure where that came from. I asked you if you would rather have race be a defining issue or not. Based upon the debates, press coverage, and national conventions, race is not the defining issue of this election cycle. Yes, Barry is black, but affirmative action and other racial issues are peripheral, if mentioned at all. The war, the economy, taxes, and health care seem to be the hot button issues this cycle.

And? Once again, somewhat confused at your initial impetus for this train of thought.

 

[EasyEJL]

Hmm, gee whiz: Maybe you could look at other interviews where she explicitly states she hopes race will not be the defining issue in this election. She openly cites disparities - whether they be socioeconomic or otherwise - between the majority and "black communities", but that does not make her racist.

As I said, 'Selective Reception/Perception'.

Yes, and interviews taken since her husband chose to run are indicative of her true feelings moreso than the 20 years prior? Take a look at her history over time, not the advertising she is now attempting to do.

And calling something a "black community" is racist. A poor community, an inner city community, etc are not racist terms. separating a group based on race is racism.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Yes, and interviews taken since her husband chose to run are indicative of her true feelings moreso than the 20 years prior? Take a look at her history over time, not the advertising she is now attempting to do.

And calling something a "black community" is racist. A poor community, an inner city community, etc are not racist terms. separating a group based on race is racism.

No, it is not. Once again:

Selective Reception/Perception

Let me define some relevant terms:

Community:

3. A social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists

Neither is a black community a "thing", as you put it, but rather a collection; in this specific case, a collection of individuals whom identify with a collective set of struggles, normative values or moralities, not necessarily collected within a specific geographic locale. I would postulate that the previous 500 years of suppression and repression of culture would constitute a 'collective identity' - such that defining the 'black community' as distinct from the larger community as a function of that repression is justified.

 

[RobInKuwait]

For brevity's sake, what inspired you to begin this train of thought? Irrespective of the political climate, I made a comment as towards my perception of Easy's racial inclination; I believe you have, and continue to, misconstrue my point.



And? Once again, somewhat confused at your initial impetus for this train of thought.

Ok, reread the thread, you're right. I thought this thread was about Sarah Palin....my bad

 

[strategicmove]

No, it is not. Once again:

Selective Reception/Perception

Let me define some relevant terms:

Community:



Neither is a black community a "thing", as you put it, but rather a collection; in this specific case, a collection of individuals whom identify with a collective set of struggles, normative values or moralities, not necessarily collected within a specific geographic locale. I would postulate that the previous 500 years of suppression and repression of culture would constitute a 'collective identity' - such that defining the 'black community' as distinct from the larger community as a function of that repression is justified.

Another great post. Reps!

 

[EasyEJL]

No, it is not. Once again:

Selective Reception/Perception

Let me define some relevant terms:

Community:



Neither is a black community a "thing", as you put it, but rather a collection; in this specific case, a collection of individuals whom identify with a collective set of struggles, normative values or moralities, not necessarily collected within a specific geographic locale. I would postulate that the previous 500 years of suppression and repression of culture would constitute a 'collective identity' - such that defining the 'black community' as distinct from the larger community as a function of that repression is justified.

But it would be racism if I say "there is more crime per capita in the black community than the us in general" ?

 

[RobInKuwait]

But it would be racism if I say "there is more crime per capita in the black community than the us in general" ?

I share your frustration. While it my not be "racist" to use terms like "black community" and "latino community", it can certainly be divisive.

I'm in law enforcement, and there are organizations such as Black Law Enforcement Officers (LEO), Hispanic LEOs, Female LEOs, and probably several others that other officers basically get paid vacations to attend the conferences. What free conference do I get as a White LEO? Nothing.

It seems like its "cultural awareness" when you mention race in a positive manner, and "racism" when its in a negative manner.

 

[AE14]

What is the difference between banning it and simply not carrying it? Do you think if I went to my local library and ordered a copy of hustler that they would comply?

No. There are community standards that are enforced in public libraries. Since every community is difference, the decision to "ban" a book should be made at the community level.

A public library is paid for by everybody, including me. My money should not be spent of smut for children. Its not a question of "government interference", its a question of spending public money on the community.

figures a cowboy fan :lol:

all joking aside, have you finished reading the remainder of my posts? just curious

 

[RobInKuwait]

figures a cowboy fan :lol:

all joking aside, have you finished reading the remainder of my posts? just curious

Yeah, I wrote that, then later saw that EasyEJL wrote the exact same thing as me....I need to get caught up before I post responses .

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Ok, reread the thread, you're right. I thought this thread was about Sarah Palin....my bad

It is, but it was side tracked; which does not take away from the fact you completely misinterpreted my post....it's okay, your bad.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

But it would be racism if I say "there is more crime per capita in the black community than the us in general" ?

No; you would be vague and ambiguous.

Comparisons are moot when the terms are not properly defined: I.e., define: "us". However, I assume you meant per capita crime rates within the African American Community at-large (herein meaning all members of that community labelled with the ambiguous "African-American", irrespective of geographic locale) compared to the United States General Community at-large (herein defined as all legal citizens not counted within the former group); which, in such a case, is not racist but an unfortunate statistic.

What differentiates you from myself and others, however, is begging the question of what predicates that statistic - that is, what external cultural conditions are acting upon agents of that group to produce those type of actions? Outputs in statistical analyses cannot be arrived at without adjacent functions; functions take inputs and assign numerical output values to them. In this case, the inputs would be the "Black Community; the "functions" would be socioeconomic conditions such as employment rates, employer prejudice (if any), access to education, judicial bias, latent cultural repression and so on; and the outputs would be higher incarceration rates, higher per capita crime rates, higher teen pregnancy rates and so on. In your previous posts on this matter, you analyze the output values without properly contexualizing them in terms of their interaction with the societal "functions".

Individual agents act based on a confluence of factors: Both personal responsibility and the reflexive nature of communities at-large must be taken into effect - in other words, we must disseminate such statistics with a more complex ontology than you are analyzing it through.

 

[EasyEJL]

i meant US by us. Frankly this is more socialist mumbo jumbo again, the statistic of how many black people attend princeton on non-race specific scholarships can be used to justify racist scholarships - scholarships that exclude people based on race, but if statistics are used to show something negative it has to be "looked at more closely". If you want to talk about "selective reception/perception" you should look more closely at yourself.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i meant US by us. Frankly this is more socialist mumbo jumbo again, the statistic of how many black people attend princeton on non-race specific scholarships can be used to justify racist scholarships - scholarships that exclude people based on race, but if statistics are used to show something negative it has to be "looked at more closely". If you want to talk about "selective reception/perception" you should look more closely at yourself.

Define "US", as you seemed unable and seem unable now; it is is not mumbo-jumbo, it is learning how to properly define the parameters of your statement so you do not look like an ignorant bigot.

You also seemed to have missed the earlier point: There are institutional arrangements currently in place which unfortunately preclude certain segment populations, simply by virtue of their economic status - I was using this as an allusion to point out the falsehood of your own statements.

In terms of perception, I deem equity to be equity - that is, completely equal opportunity based on merit, skill, and responsibility. Affirmative action is necessarily counterproductive to this goal. However, until the playing field - so to speak - has been leveled, such inequitable arrangements are an unfortunate current consequence of past inequities.

Besides, if you are not a bigot, why are you becoming so frustrated?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

i meant US by us. Frankly this is more socialist mumbo jumbo again, the statistic of how many black people attend princeton on non-race specific scholarships can be used to justify racist scholarships - scholarships that exclude people based on race, but if statistics are used to show something negative it has to be "looked at more closely". If you want to talk about "selective reception/perception" you should look more closely at yourself.

Oh, and that's Sociological, not Socialist Mumbo Jumbo.

 

[EasyEJL]

Define "US", as you seemed unable and seem unable now;

Are you really that clueless? The United States

it is is not mumbo-jumbo, it is learning how to properly define the parameters of your statement so you do not look like an ignorant bigot.

You also seemed to have missed the earlier point: There are institutional arrangements currently in place which unfortunately preclude certain segment populations, simply by virtue of their economic status - I was using this as an allusion to point out the falsehood of your own statements.

In terms of perception, I deem equity to be equity - that is, completely equal opportunity based on merit, skill, and responsibility. Affirmative action is necessarily counterproductive to this goal. However, until the playing field - so to speak - has been leveled, such inequitable arrangements are an unfortunate current consequence of past inequities.

It is ludicrous to say it isn't racism when a group excludes others or recieves special priviledges based on their color, creed, ethnic background or religion. Anything that separates a group separates that group, and separate but equal does not work. Anytime things are defined by race is racism. "Black issues" is a racist statement, "Inner city chicago residents below the poverty line" isn't. The longer we continue to keep groups separate, the longer racism continues.

according to your logic

Besides, if you are not a bigot, why are you becoming so frustrated?

If i accused you of fraud and you attempted to explain where your actions weren't fraudulent, that explaination would be proof of your guilt?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Are you really that clueless? The United States

Now you are getting excited! Apparently you are unaware, but the United States is comprised of over 360 million individuals of varying ethnic, religious, and political heritages. Painting 360 million individuals with the broad stroke of "US", displays how inept you truly are.

It is ludicrous to say it isn't racism when a group excludes others or recieves special priviledges based on their color, creed, ethnic background or religion. Anything that separates a group separates that group, and separate but equal does not work. Anytime things are defined by race is racism. "Black issues" is a racist statement, "Inner city chicago residents below the poverty line" isn't. The longer we continue to keep groups separate, the longer racism continues.

And, this is relevant in what respect? I stated my opinions of affirmative action above, and reiterated this same statement. Read and breathe before you post.

If i accused you of fraud and you attempted to explain where your actions weren't fraudulent, that explaination would be proof of your guilt?

If you wish, I can dig up your statements I am constantly referring to. At least there exists some dignity in honestly expressing your opinions; little weasels such as yourself express prejudice opinions when it seems to be socially acceptable, and then recede faster than your hairline when called upon it.

 

[EasyEJL]

Its interesting how it devolves so much into personal attacks for you. I suppose that is a useful tactic, and probably makes you feel better about yourself.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Its interesting how it devolves so much into personal attacks for you. I suppose that is a useful tactic, and probably makes you feel better about yourself.

You're kidding, right?

When you were unable to define "us", you became sarcastic and derisive and caustic; I responded in kind.

 

[B5150]

"Black issues" is a racist statement, "Inner city chicago residents below the poverty line" isn't. The longer we continue to keep groups separate, the longer racism continues.

Here, let me fuel the discussion or arguement.

In grammer school I took all of the Vocational H.S. School Test. There was the Bronx School of Science, Aviation H.S., Edison H.S. Automotive H.S,, Regents H.S. and Brooklyn Technical H.S..

I admit that I went on so many of them because they were school sponsored field trips. So I was able to get out of class for the day and ride the subways with my class mates to the others cities in N.Y. outside of Brooklyn.

I did well on all of the tests but one. The very one I wanted to go to - Brooklyn Technical H.S..

I passed all the others (I think minimum passing was 90%) but Brooklyn Tech. It was the last of all of them. It was really my first choice but it was taken in a sequence based on scheduling by the individual schools.

I scored a 87% on the Brooklyn Technical H.S. test. Only three points shy of passing. My parents spoke with the administrator at the school. Apparently the neighborhood that my grammer school was in was in a neigborhood that was considered an underprivileged neighboor.

Now I am no dummie now and was not then. The grammer school I went to was a private Catholic School. I was middle class and not underprivileged. I lived in Boro Park Brooklyn. The grammer school was in Sunset Park Brooklyn. Sunset Park Brooklyn is and was known for being very Hispanic, Latin, Puerto Rican, Hatian, Dominican, African American and many other minority ethnic groups.

Boro Park on the otherhand was a Norweigan, Irish, Italian, Jewish community.

Because I was going to a grammer school that was in that area they had a program (don't recall the program name) that afforded me the opportunity to take a summer school class to qualify to attend the school. Upon completion and pasing of the summer school class I was ultimately allowed to attend Brooklyn Technical H.S.

Like I said, even then I was well aware that this program was for the purposes of affirmative action for minorities. Even when I attended that summer school class I was a minority white kid among all of the minorities qualified to attend the class simply because of their minority neigborhood and minority ethnicity.

I was the white kid that was able to take advantage of this. So even though I did not meet the ethnic majority of a minority that were in that "inner city" I was attending a school that was located in that "inner city".

Obviously I was grateful for the program and do support the way it was implemented.

But I see many areas of inequality or preferential treatment in ethnicity in places like civil service jobs. I have know white males to be on waiting lists for civil servant jobs for teens of years while Asian, Hispanic, African American, female, short, handicapped, disability and other minority groups get preferential placement because of diversity quota satisfaction requirements.

Anyway....carry on!

 

[dave12]

I cant find any corroboration of this or any proof. Could OP provide more links?

 

[dsade]

I cant find any corroboration of this or any proof. Could OP provide more links?

The Google, she works well today.

Search

"palin book banning"

 

[B5150]

Yeah, my google came up with something I posted already.

The media never get it right and if and when they do people will have made have fabricated their own truth on the matter.

One version: Invalid Link Removed

"In December 1996, Emmons told her hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin three times asked her — starting before she was sworn in — about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose.

Emmons told the Frontiersman she flatly refused to consider any kind of censorship. Emmons, now Mary Ellen Baker, is on vacation from her current job in Fairbanks and did not return e-mail or telephone messages left for her Wednesday.

When the matter came up for the second time in October 1996, during a City Council meeting, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla housewife who often attends council meetings, was there.

Like many Alaskans, Kilkenny calls the governor by her first name.

“Sarah said to Mary Ellen, ‘What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?” Kilkenny said.

“I was shocked. Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, ‘The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.’"

According to this account of the story it would seems like all Palin did was inquire about removing books (I would imagine prompted by her community). It would seem it is the librarian who is making statements about banning and censorship and flexing her power as 'the librarian' in the matter.

Those that have an anti-Palin agenda seem to be emphasizing an "anit-press" or "anti-speech" or "anti-expression" that may very well be an exageration or misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[dave12]

The Google, she works well today.

Search

"palin book banning"

I tried that its broken. It sent me to all these wacko blogs about amerikkka and the SDS

 

[Mulletsoldier]

That is why I despise bi-partisan politics; it necessarily removes the "Representation" from Representative Republic when the constituents of that republic cannot find unbiased, unadulterated information on their candidates. Canada is worse; in our parliamentary houses the MPs take their shoes off and bang them on the table! (savage Canadians)

 

[dsade]

Yeah, my google came up with something I posted already. Those that have an anti-Palin agenda seem to be emphasizing an "anit-press" or "anti-speech" or "anti-expression" that may very well be an exageration or misrepresentation of the facts.

Agreed that it may very well be...this thread was posted because the request was placed by someone vying for a position of power that is incompatible with american ideals. The fact that someone had to tell her "hey, bad idea" means that in her own head, for a second she though "Hey, maybe we can do this...just in case".

Maybe next time it will be "Hey, would you be ok with rounding up all them A-rabs and putting them into camps like they we did with the Japs in WW2?"

Morality, ethics and freedom stem from grappling with wrong and right INTERNALLY first...this was just a "hey, we might have a problem with this one" post.

 

[dsade]

I tried that its broken. It sent me to all these wacko blogs about amerikkka and the SDS

Google is broken?

Odd, it takes me to TIME's website as well as a bunch of other reputable websites.

there is nothing conclusively reported, yet, and again the purpose of this thread (note the question mark) was to simply say "Hey, another thing to keep your eye on."

 

[dave12]

Google is broken?

Odd, it takes me to TIME's website as well as a bunch of other reputable websites.

there is nothing conclusively reported, yet, and again the purpose of this thread (note the question mark) was to simply say "Hey, another thing to keep your eye on."

No crap? didnt mean to be a jerk off, I didn't get Time in the first 3 pages of results and i was curious to read about it but I try to not even bother reading stuff that has a clear ideological bent from the start when I'm just trying to sort out reality vs. perspective. I can understand banning certain books in say a elementary school, but a college or maybe a HS would be a different story all together. And since you are in here whats the effective time limit on DCP. 1 month / 2 months?

 

[dsade]

No crap? didnt mean to be a jerk off, I didn't get Time in the first 3 pages of results and i was curious to read about it but I try to not even bother reading stuff that has a clear ideological bent from the start when I'm just trying to sort out reality vs. perspective. I can understand banning certain books in say a elementary school, but a college or maybe a HS would be a different story all together. And since you are in here whats the effective time limit on DCP. 1 month / 2 months?

i would recommend taking a couple of weeks off every 2 months.

 

[dave12]

i would recommend taking a couple of weeks off every 2 months.

Thanks

 

[EasyEJL]

Agreed that it may very well be...this thread was posted because the request was placed by someone vying for a position of power that is incompatible with american ideals. The fact that someone had to tell her "hey, bad idea" means that in her own head, for a second she though "Hey, maybe we can do this...just in case".

Maybe next time it will be "Hey, would you be ok with rounding up all them A-rabs and putting them into camps like they we did with the Japs in WW2?"

Morality, ethics and freedom stem from grappling with wrong and right INTERNALLY first...this was just a "hey, we might have a problem with this one" post.

Along those lines, nobody in the current election is acceptable