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LG Sciences New T-911; Hank's beta test.

Hank you are seriously making me consider your way of nutrition. Even if its just a trial run. Im very intrigued by this method of yours.
 
metroba said:
Hank you are seriously making me consider your way of nutrition. Even if its just a trial run. Im very intrigued by this method of yours.
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x2. :head:
 
Hank Vangut said:
glad you approve of the program. the guy who gave it to me was banned from here because he was a big taint poster.

i had a similar pwo discussion on a different forum not too long ago.

your premise is based on the need of an insulin spike to shuttle nutrients into the muscles.
eating a big meal of solid protein and/or fat will also significantly increase insulin levels on their own....especially in someone who is in good shape with great insulin sensitivity.
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Hahhaahaha <----- laughing at xj's expense. :D

Everyone seems to be obsessed with jacking up insulin to extreme levels pwo. Seems we've crossed that line to excessiveness with all these recent pwo concoctions...
 
I'm with hank on this one in the fact that it seems as though recently "broscience" has gotten a bad rep. There is reason for that however the underlying aspect of it is that "you do what works for you". Hank is doing what works for him, and in my experience a somewhat similar protocol also works for myself (forever adjusting obviously).

Always a good discussion though.
 
Even pro bodybuilders, who's entire lives revolves and evolves around placing and displacing just the right ratio and portion of macros with measurements and scales can still "miss." They're submersed in bronutritionists and certified dietitions, yet with all the math and past journals, its still considered a strike of luck when they truly get "dialed in" (for some). Scientific principles or not, the best we can do is get closer and closer to maximizing whatever results you're currently aiming for, via the nutrition aspect.

I'm a PWO believer, but even in my personal, disciplined experience, my body appearance or performance was not so revolutionized in comparison to the lack of PWO dietary practice. Was it beneficial? Yes, but to the degree where I can say Hank's method is "wrong" hellz to tha no.

Nothing we do short of illegal hot sauce, causes the body to morph in multitudes. "Multitudes" being the key word. I believe in PWO nutrition, my opinion being formed through research affirmation that I've read. I do believe it is the most beneficial, but by how much? In my own experience, not that much. I didn't suddenly blow up when I began to exercise a disciplined PWO dietary regiment. 60 g simple carb/50-60 whey protein/5 g leucine/5 g bcaa shake within first 30 min, solid meal at 60 min and another solid protein meal 2 hrs later, RELIGIOUSLY. My rate of LBM growth did not seem any more accelerated in comparison to any other time of my life (My general diet is respectably clean and hypertrophy centered)

The only time nutrition seems to cause a body morph for me, is when I'm cutting or bulking, an overall intake of more or lesser kcals. I don't think I'll ever be "convinced" that PWO is not the most beneficial, (even though Hank's broscience is damn well thought out) until more research comes out confirming Hank's ideals, and for Broscience, it is damn impressive.
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I'm with hank on this one in the fact that it seems as though recently "broscience" has gotten a bad rep. There is reason for that however the underlying aspect of it is that "you do what works for you". Hank is doing what works for him, and in my experience a somewhat similar protocol also works for myself (forever adjusting obviously).

Always a good discussion though.
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That is as well the other piece to keep in mind - everyone's body is different, and i've had many discussions about this with pro bodybuilders. Some people are affected harder by carbs than others, some people feel ill on a high fat diet, etc. It is very individual so although a study may show positive results that doesn't mean its effective for everyone. Hugo Rivera was one, he said as he was really learning he wrote up strict plans and would follow whatever it was for a full month, and track before and after changes. And over time, he figured out what really worked best for him both for bulking + cutting. I think that as a stragegy is valuable for most of us to follow, just to get a better idea of what our own body does. 40/40/20, 33/33/33, 40/10/50 etc.


Actually the high carb insulin surge PWO is somewhat like the setting your alarm to wake you up every 3 hours during the nite for a meal. It may be somewhat beneficial in terms of general muscle growth, but also carries some negatives with it that partially offset that value.
 
Easy thats exactly where consistency comes into play. Primarily in the form of logging your training and diet and referring back to it often. I know when I look at past progress pics I often look back at my logs trying to figure out when a certain improvement occurred and what type of diet/training was being used during that time.

Anyway lets give Hankster back his log.
 
Day 3:

ok, i'm surely feeling the effect of T-911 now.

alright i believe this stuff is makeing me feel good.
workout last night was awesome! not sure if i just felt good and strong or if it was due to T-911 but it was one of the better workouts i've had in awhile.
i didn't feel like i needed as much rest between sets to feel recovered. i worked it hard but it just felt just easier than usual and i didn't feel so fatigued after.

i also woke up in the middle of the night with wood.
this bed sword might have poked me in the forehead to wake me actually.
anyway, i'm not sure if this is a positive as it made it very difficult to take a piss.

skin is oilier and a few zits are starting to appear. i am prone to this whenever my hormones seem to change slightly but it fades as my body adjusts. we'll see if this happens w/this.

tonight i'm going to be doing quad dominant workout.
i'll post my diet for today up as soon as i complete my fitday.
 
Bed sword :toofunny:

Taking a leak or trying to with a raging "bed sword" is one of the more challenging things in life that we men face. lol. I have a good technique tho :thumbsup: if its not my house then just let it spray!!! haha j/k
 
Peeing with a "bed sword" can actually damage the penis. I'm not sure why I thought to share that, but just be carefull!
:thumbsup:
 
Royd The Noyd said:
I'm with hank on this one in the fact that it seems as though recently "broscience" has gotten a bad rep. There is reason for that however the underlying aspect of it is that "you do what works for you". Hank is doing what works for him, and in my experience a somewhat similar protocol also works for myself (forever adjusting obviously).

Always a good discussion though.
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I think there is a lot of misconception here. No one told Hank he was doing anything wrong, but fairly stating a point of view that may help others one way or another, including myself. That is what forums are designed for, interaction.

Now back to Hank. Have you tried PWO with out the fat, and just protein and aminos? Not talking about carbs.
 
Wouldnt you think that ingesting the aminos periworkout would be more valuable so they can make it thru stomach walls and into bloodstream by the time workout is done?
 
EasyEJL said:
Wouldnt you think that ingesting the aminos periworkout would be more valuable so they can make it thru stomach walls and into bloodstream by the time workout is done?
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Leucine, if ingested post workout has an effect at inducing augmented release of insulin, (I do believe). However, that's about as deep as I can get on that, in what pathways, how and why, ?no se? (you like the authentic double question mark? I took Spanish in high school).

I don't believe powder leucine has to work that hard to get into the blood stream.
 
VolcomX311 said:
Leucine, if ingested post workout has an effect at inducing augmented release of insulin, (I do believe). However, that's about as deep as I can get on that, in what pathways, how and why, ?no se? (you like the authentic double question mark? I took Spanish in high school).

I don't believe powder leucine has to work that hard to get into the blood stream.
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I think the below write up by Jacob Wilson goes into your question a little bit:


Does leucine ‘alone’ stimulate insulin secretion and is this how it exerts its effects on protein synthesis?

Studies are conflicting as some have found no increase in insulin when leucine is administered alone, while others have. To clarify Dr. Anthony and colleagues measured insulin levels immediately after leucine administration and found that it increased insulin from 15-45 minutes. Thus it appears that it does increase insulin transiently and that measuring insulin after this time frame will not yield significant increases.

In order to investigate if insulin modulates leucine’s effects, scientists will either block the action of insulin, or block insulin release. When this occurs leucine’s effects on protein synthesis are partly but not fully hindered. Recall that leucine increases S6, which is the ribosomal protein responsible for increasing the capacity of a cell to conduct protein synthesis. This is completely blocked when insulin is hindered. Leucine also enhances the initiation of translation (the initiation stage of protein synthesis) and this is only partly blocked when insulin is hindered. Thus, leucine has both insulin dependent and insulin independent effects on protein synthesis.

How much insulin is needed in order for leucine’s effects on protein synthesis to be maximized?

Leucine can maximally stimulate protein synthesis at fasting levels of insulin, and perhaps at slightly lower levels than this! Therefore spiking insulin levels for the purpose of enhancing leucines effects on protein synthesis do not appear to be necessary. Currently scientists are divided. Either insulin plays a supportive or passive role in supporting leucines effects on protein synthesis, or a direct role. Either way this is maximized at low levels.

Can insulin stimulate protein synthesis independent of leucine and other amino acids?

Insulin administered alone does not appear to have an effect on protein synthesis. The rationale is that insulin increases uptake of amino acids and therefore lowers their concentration in the blood when given alone. Extracellular amino acid levels are critical for protein synthesis to occur. However, when amino acid levels are maintained insulin may be able to stimulate protein synthesis when it is at extremely high levels. This is confirmed in studies which administer either insulin alone, or carbohydrates alone. No protein synthesis is stimulated and the individual remains in a muscle wasting condition. In contrast when amino acid levels are maintained protein synthesis is stimulated when insulin is raised to very high levels.

However, insulin potently decreases protein breakdown, independently of amino acids. In fact it is considered the main player in decreasing protein breakdown, but individuals remain in negative protein balance without aminos.

Can insulin and leucine work together in a synergistic fashion to increase muscle growth?

Like leucine, insulin appears to elicit its actions on protein synthesis through an mTOR dependent mechanism, as well as mTOR independent mechanisms. When leucine and insulin are combined their effects on increasing a cell’s capacity for protein synthesis are synergistic. This means that if insulin increases the capacity of a cell to increase protein synthesis 2 fold, and so does leucine, combined their effects are greater than 4 fold.

The current rationale is that insulin actually increases blood flow to muscle tissue, which if combined with increasing levels of amino acids (particularly leucine ) would increase amino acid concentrations and delivery to muscle tissue, thereby amplifying their effects.

Insulin increases blood flow + increased leucine à greater concentration of leucine surrounding muscle tissue à amplified effects on protein synthesis.

It is also important to note that as stated, leucine alone either does not or only transiently increases plasma insulin levels. Yet, when combined with insulin, it actually notably increases plasma insulin levels. The rationale is that insulin is cleared primarily through degradation (e.g. it is broken down like other proteins). Because leucine has anticatabolic effects, it may decrease insulin clearance levels.

Can you discuss more of the effects of insulin on protein breakdown?

Yes,

White leucine is the primary regulator of protein synthesis, insulin is the primary regulator of protein breakdown in that it decreases it by hindering pathways responsible for protein breakdown.

In an intriguing study participants were given one of three drinks after exercise. The first was a glucose drink, the second combined whey protein with glucose, while the third added leucine to the glucose / whey serving. Results indicated that protein balance was negative in the first condition, became positive in the glucose / whey condition, and increased again when leucine was added.

Here’s the interesting fact. Protein balance appeared to increase with increasing insulin levels. Finally they analyzed the relationship (correlation) between leucine and protein synthesis and insulin and protein synthesis. They found that leucine was positively related to protein synthesis (as leucine increases protein synthesis does as well), while insulin was not significantly correlated. However, insulin was inversely correlated to protein breakdown, meaning when insulin levels rise, protein breakdown decreases.

For practical applications on how to manipulate carbohydrates for insulin release see the following papers

Invalid Link Removed

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Both exercise and leucine stimulate protein synthesis. Is there any time differences between the two?

Yes, leucine in a mixture of EAAs stimulates protein synthesis for 2-3 hours, where as exercise stimulates protein synthesis for up to 72 hours. The take home message is that you need amino acids with a high frequency.

The second take home message is that even though protein synthesis is elevated with exercise for 72 hours, these effects lower with time. In our publication on Contemporary issues in protein consumption we provided the following graph to demonstrate this

Figure 1.0. The response of protein synthesis to exercise. Adapted from
Wilson and Wilson (2006).

This is one of the reasons why HIT training may not be as effective as a higher frequency of training, which is able to maintain higher levels of protein synthesis throughout a 7 day period, then a once a week program, which has diminishing effects.
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Ares said:
Have you tried PWO with out the fat, and just protein and aminos? Not talking about carbs.
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no, i haven't tried this.
i might have to try it as you do make some valid points on the fat not ideal pwo.
when i do use straight aminos i've always used them pre or during workout.
 
i want to also update that T-911 feels like a prohormone.
i don't know if i'll get the same body comp changes that prohormones deliver, but right now it feels exactly like being in week three of a prohormone run.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Royd The Noyd again.

I tried bud, good read. I've read lots and lots and lots of articles like that, so I was all over the leucine threads, but its been awhile. This was in my religiously, disciplined PWO era, which I've mentioned before, I'm not as pressed about about these days.
 
Hank Vangut said:
i want to also update that T-911 feels like a prohormone.
i don't know if i'll get the same body comp changes that prohormones deliver, but right now it feels exactly like being in week three of a prohormone run.
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How would you say you react to Prohormones in terms of performance? I get both muscle strength and muscle endurance boosts, but the muscle endurance is the most dominant and notable front runner in my own experience.
 
VolcomX311 said:
How would you say you react to Prohormones in terms of performance? I get both muscle strength and muscle endurance boosts, but the muscle endurance is the most dominant and notable front runner in my own experience.
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i'm typically the same. w/prohormones i get both strength and endurance boost but the endurance and recovery are most notable.

the feeling i'm having w/t-911 is most similar to a prohormone in the mood elevation, libido boost, oily skin, and workout endurance so far.
 
Hank Vangut said:
i'm typically the same. w/prohormones i get both strength and endurance boost but the endurance and recovery are most notable.

the feeling i'm having w/t-911 is most similar to a prohormone in the mood elevation, libido boost, oily skin, and workout endurance so far.
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Oily skin? There goes your Proactiv® sponsorships.
 
Ares said:
BCAA's peri-workout and Leucine post-workout.
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That's how I like to run it, only I have bulk powders for both, so I use both anyway and I will up the dose of one over the other, depending on pre or post.

When I'm feeling extra lazy, I throw 2:1 ratio of BCAA/Leucine into a zip lock bucket and mix it up.

Don't judge me, after doing this for so many months, short cuts are a welcomed luxury.
 
VolcomX311 said:
When I'm feeling extra lazy, I throw 2:1 ratio of BCAA/Leucine into a zip lock bucket and mix it up.

Don't judge me, after doing this for so many months, short cuts are a welcomed luxury.
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Well, and again we go back to the question of "if the difference between doing that and not is less than 2% difference in gains, how much effort is it worth" :)
 
Day 5: i think im on day five anyway :think: not really sure.

workout wasn't as strong today.
i'm really liking this pre-exhaustion routine.
i have had to check my ego a little though as i have to really lighten the weight load on the big moves (bench, squat, dead) because i'm fried by the time i get to them at the end of my workouts.

today was ham dominant day.
Day 5 - Ham Dominant
A1) Standing Calve Raise 3 12-15 3231
A2) Donkey Calve Raise 3 8-10 3131

B) Standing Calve Raise 2 21's (Top, full, Bottom)

C1) Leg Curl 3 10-12 32X0
C2) Romanian Deadlift 3 8-10 3130

E1) Extended Step Lunge 3 10-12 3230
E2) Sumo Deadlift 3 6-8 30X0

F) Gironda Leg Curl 2 21's (Top, Full, Bottom)
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jesus tits this is a tough workout!!!
i thought it was just going to be hard the first week i did it because i wasn't adapted to the routine yet. but today was my 3rd time doing this one and it hurt every bit as much as the first week i did it.

so today, i didn't feel that great in the gym to be honest.
outside the gym i still feel excellent.
still getting night wood. i might be harming my bed sword by taking a night pee.
i'm very surprised at how fast t-911 kicks in!!!
 
Hank Vangut said:
Day 5: i think im on day five anyway :think: not really sure.

workout wasn't as strong today.
i'm really liking this pre-exhaustion routine.
i have had to check my ego a little though as i have to really lighten the weight load on the big moves (bench, squat, dead) because i'm fried by the time i get to them at the end of my workouts.

today was ham dominant day.

jesus tits this is a tough workout!!!
i thought it was just going to be hard the first week i did it because i wasn't adapted to the routine yet. but today was my 3rd time doing this one and it hurt every bit as much as the first week i did it.

so today, i didn't feel that great in the gym to be honest.
outside the gym i still feel excellent.
still getting night wood. i might be harming my bed sword by taking a night pee.
i'm very surprised at how fast t-911 kicks in!!!
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What are your thoughts on Sumo vs Traditional Dead lifts? I've never tried Sumo, biomechanically speaking, it should be a little easier then Traditional because the resistance force is closer to your body, however, I believe you don't get to utilize the hammies as much.
 
VolcomX311 said:
What are your thoughts on Sumo vs Traditional Dead lifts? I've never tried Sumo, biomechanically speaking, it should be a little easier then Traditional because the resistance force is closer to your body, however, I believe you don't get to utilize the hammies as much.
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Takes more hip strength/flexibility in my experience. Hip flexibility is a weakness for myself.
 
VolcomX311 said:
What are your thoughts on Sumo vs Traditional Dead lifts? I've never tried Sumo, biomechanically speaking, it should be a little easier then Traditional because the resistance force is closer to your body, however, I believe you don't get to utilize the hammies as much.
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i agree with what royd said.
sumos do seem to work the hips more and lower back a little less than traditional deads.
so far i'm not able to pull more weight on sumos than i do on reglar deads though.
but i'm new at using sumos. i'm also doing them at the end of my workout when i'm already tired.
 
Hank Vangut said:
i agree with what royd said.
sumos do seem to work the hips more and lower back a little less than traditional deads.
so far i'm not able to pull more weight on sumos than i do on reglar deads though.
but i'm new at using sumos. i'm also doing them at the end of my workout when i'm already tired.
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End of the workout Deads, those are rough. I rarely do that, but I have in the past. It really drains anything that's left in you.

If sumos are more effective at developing hip strength, then it would have amazing sports performance benefits.

Maybe I'll have certain athlete's try Sumo and evaluate the outcome.
 
sumos and regular deads are practically the same really.
the difference seems to be very slight.
it might be nice for some variation for the atletes you train.
 
Hank Vangut said:
sumos and regular deads are practically the same really.
the difference seems to be very slight.
it might be nice for some variation for the atletes you train.
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I see the sumo guys with their legs spread waaaaaay out, and that brings the bar almost directly beneath you and you "appear" even closer to the ground, which seems to diminish the ROM. Those are two lever (torque) system principles working in your favor, HOWEVER, before I make any further presumptions and possibly blowing a warm breeze out me arse, I should try it before making such presumptions. This is just based off of observation, so your experience out weighs my theories.
 
Day 7 (or 8):

oily skin and zits seem to be less now that i've had a week to adjust.
the slight high feeling i was getting early on immediatly after dosing is not there anymore. damn!
mouth still gets a little tingly but isn't as noticable.

yesterday was an off day from the gym.
today i'll be doing bis and back.
strength seems be around the same. although i seem to have more endurance and experience less fatigue.

body composition change so far seems negligable at this point. i at the same weight.
diet and workouts have been nearly 100% over the past week.

overall, i'm feeling really good.
 
VolcomX311 said:
I see the sumo guys with their legs spread waaaaaay out, and that brings the bar almost directly beneath you and you "appear" even closer to the ground, which seems to diminish the ROM. Those are two lever (torque) system principles working in your favor, HOWEVER, before I make any further presumptions and possibly blowing a warm breeze out me arse, I should try it before making such presumptions. This is just based off of observation, so your experience out weighs my theories.
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yeah, i've seen guys do the really wide stance as well.
i tried and it felt ackward on my joints so i'm not doing them that wide.
it could be that i'm just performing them wrong though as these are new for me and i haven't had an actual strength coach show me the proper form.
 
Hank Vangut said:
yeah, i've seen guys do the really wide stance as well.
i tried and it felt ackward on my joints so i'm not doing them that wide.
it could be that i'm just performing them wrong though as these are new for me and i haven't had an actual strength coach show me the proper form.
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Fair enough.

But a serious question, do you perform your HIIT on a field or a catwalk?
 
Hank, do you do a little turn on the catwalk?

 
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