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POST Workout Supplementation

wrasslin116 said:
Wow thank you guys, half the people on here seem to think slow-digesting carbs are best post workout lol.
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Yes this is an interesting phenomenon: seems like 1/2 the people want to use WMS or some such other lightning-fast digesting carb PWO, while others want to use oats or a slower digesting food..
 
I'm gonna have to go against the grain (bad pun lol) on this one. Oats, although are hard to stomach for most of us, wouldn't be all that bad immediately post-workout.

Here's a post with Layne Norton, which basically goes along with what I've found optimal:

I am in the middle ground on this. I think some fast digesting carbs post workout are good as this will raise insulin quickly, replenish glycogen quickly and accelerate recovery. HOWEVER, insulin is not anabolic in and of itself in nongrowing adults at physiological levels so taking in 100g of dextrose post workout in an attempt to get an anabolic insulin spike is not nessecary. Only a small amount of insulin is nessecary in order for protein synthesis to proceed, amino acid availability is the main factors that protein synthesis is dependant upon. Now even though carbs aren't anabolic by themselves, they do increase the synthetic response to amino acid dosing, thus it's smart to take carbs & protein together to maximize protein synthesis post workout.

IMO probably one of the best post workoutdown shakes breaks down like this

5-10g leucine
20-30g whey
20-30g dextrose or malto
30g oats

50-100g low/moderate GI CHO about 30-45 minutes later (size depends upon bodyweight)

-Layne
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Basically you have the best of both worlds. The dextrose/malto for faster/immediate absorbtion, and then the nutrient dense oats. The leucine/whey for obvious reasons.

So I guess I'm in the middle, I don't think 100% of carbs PWO can come from oats, as they would be a bit hard to stomach and possibly not high enough GI. However, 25-40g would be great to support the higher GI carbs, just like slower digesting protein (casein) is also great post-workout.

-Dave
 
snagency said:
Oats for pre w/o meal.. now that's the ticket.
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snagency said:
Agreed Dave. If using that format, I would recommend some real foods for that 2nd intake period.

Never been a fan of the WMS. I actually just started using it for the first time earlier this year. I feel it does have it's place, and it's an interesting concept, but overall I think it's grossly misused.
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I agree with both notions. I use WMS due to it not effecting my stomach as much, but idk i seem to be reacting to carbs much better these days so i might head back to other things.

Oats are like my favorite carb(of good carbs mind you..) and i love them pre and post workout whole food meals.
 
DaveGabe24 said:
I'm gonna have to go against the grain (bad pun lol) on this one. Oats, although are hard to stomach for most of us, wouldn't be all that bad immediately post-workout.

Here's a post with Layne Norton, which basically goes along with what I've found optimal:



Basically you have the best of both worlds. The dextrose/malto for faster/immediate absorbtion, and then the nutrient dense oats. The leucine/whey for obvious reasons.

So I guess I'm in the middle, I don't think 100% of carbs PWO can come from oats, as they would be a bit hard to stomach and possibly not high enough GI. However, 25-40g would be great to support the higher GI carbs, just like slower digesting protein (casein) is also great post-workout.

-Dave
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I'll agree with this--malto/dex is a solid combo PWO. Love the synergy between the two.
 
DaveGabe24 said:
I'm gonna have to go against the grain (bad pun lol) on this one. Oats, although are hard to stomach for most of us, wouldn't be all that bad immediately post-workout.

Here's a post with Layne Norton, which basically goes along with what I've found optimal:



Basically you have the best of both worlds. The dextrose/malto for faster/immediate absorbtion, and then the nutrient dense oats. The leucine/whey for obvious reasons.

So I guess I'm in the middle, I don't think 100% of carbs PWO can come from oats, as they would be a bit hard to stomach and possibly not high enough GI. However, 25-40g would be great to support the higher GI carbs, just like slower digesting protein (casein) is also great post-workout.

-Dave
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I agree with this post completely and layne definitely knows his stuff. I think that a WPI and WMS blend post workout followed by a whole food meal a half hour later is just as effective though. I have found this to work very well for my body.
 
I love seing these differing ideologies.

Layne's a smart guy. I can see the value of a hi/low GI-combo carb PWO, and in fact this is my preferred startegy, albeit not with oat source.
 
kcinnitram91 said:
I agree with this post completely and layne definitely knows his stuff. I think that a WPI and WMS blend post workout followed by a whole food meal a half hour later is just as effective though. I have found this to work very well for my body.
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That right there is KEY. In the end, the best thing one can do for themself is find out what works for HIM/HER. Whether it's cocoa puffs or 200g oats, if it works..it works.

Plus, the fact that your oats are within 30 mins is most likely inside the anabolic window (usually 45mins) anyway. The idea is to take advantage of your body's metabolic state. After lifting it is primed for some serious nutrient delivery, so as bodybuilders it's vital seize the opportunity.
 
Universal Rep said:
I'll agree with this--malto/dex is a solid combo PWO. Love the synergy between the two.
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Yep. When I'm not cutting & relying on BCAA (ha, gotta get that in there UR! ;)) for PWO supplementation, my preferred PWO strategy is Beverly's MassMaker.. low in malto, but there nonetheless. I'll usually have my dex intra w/o these times tho, powering some creatine and other goodies.
 
DaveGabe24 said:
That right there is KEY. In the end, the best thing one can do for themself is find out what works for HIM/HER. Whether it's cocoa puffs or 200g oats, if it works..it works.

Plus, the fact that your oats are within 30 mins is most likely inside the anabolic window (usually 45mins) anyway. The idea is to take advantage of your body's metabolic state. After lifting it is primed for some serious nutrient delivery, so as bodybuilders it's vital seize the opportunity.
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x2...
 
snagency said:
Yep. When I'm not cutting & relying on BCAA (ha, gotta get that in there UR! ;)) for PWO supplementation, my preferred PWO strategy is Beverly's MassMaker.. low in malto, but there nonetheless. I'll usually have my dex intra w/o these times tho, powering some creatine and other goodies.
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C'mon brother, stop messin' with me, hahaha...

Malto/dex combo has some sweet benefits from an osmolarity perspective... I believe it's better than either or, alone.
 
Agreed. For me I do the oatbran because it is rather liquidy the way I make it, and so it's almost a shake, but not quite. It digests quite fast (I can work out 60-90 mins after), and then it has the benefits of all the nutrients. It all comes back to individual preference :)
 
snagency said:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Universal Rep again.

Looks like I'm repped out. Good point there too on the synergy UR.
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Yeah, I hate that word, "synergy" as was debating on using it--but it works in that context for sure. Gotta get JD in this thread. He's got the advanced degrees in nutrition...
 
This is slightly OT and I'll start a different thread if snagency wants but what is everyones opinion on mega dosing BCAA's? I'm thinking about taking 40 to 50g BCAA and mixing it in a gallon of crystal light and drinking it throughout the day...
 
SoCo4Fun said:
This is slightly OT and I'll start a different thread if snagency wants but what is everyones opinion on mega dosing BCAA's? I'm thinking about taking 40 to 50g BCAA and mixing it in a gallon of crystal light and drinking it throughout the day...
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I think you're better off with protein throughout the day. BCAA (or EAA lol) has it purposes, but they tend to be more situational. I.E. - Pre/intra/post workout.

Throughout the day, you don't really need such fast absorbing ffAA's. You can take advantage of whey, blends, and other more nutritional sources of protein.
 
SoCo4Fun said:
This is slightly OT and I'll start a different thread if snagency wants but what is everyones opinion on mega dosing BCAA's? I'm thinking about taking 40 to 50g BCAA and mixing it in a gallon of crystal light and drinking it throughout the day...
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Bring it on bro!

I like this.. no secret I'm a HUGE fan of the branched-boys.

This is essentially what Scivation guys do when they drink their Xtend thru the day. I myself (in cut mode) probably consume at least that amount daily. I like dropping 1.5g every hour thruout the day to stay anabolic, and I'll have @30g in addition surrounding my training.

I think this would work EXTREMELY well on your current diet..
 
DaveGabe24 said:
I think you're better off with protein throughout the day. BCAA (or EAA lol) has it purposes, but they tend to be more situational. I.E. - Pre/intra/post workout.

Throughout the day, you don't really need such fast absorbing ffAA's. You can take advantage of whey, blends, and other more nutritional sources of protein.
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There is some good research as to keeping BCAA intake continous thruout day to remain in anabolic state. I first heard of this yrs. ago from Dr. Eric Serrano, and the theory continues today with Paul Burton..
 
snagency said:
Bring it on bro!

I like this.. no secret I'm a HUGE fan of the branched-boys.

This is essentially what Scivation guys do when they drink their Xtend thru the day. I myself (in cut mode) probably consume at least that amount daily. I like dropping 1.5g every hour thruout the day to stay anabolic, and I'll have @30g in addition surrounding my training.

I think this would work EXTREMELY well on your current diet..
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Maybe I missed something...what is his diet? :confused:

On a bulk I find this to be far from optimal, but on a cut obviously it is extremely beneficial in the anti-catabolic aspect.
 
On a bulk I feel you are pissing your money away with BCAA usage. There are other supps/pathways that are more optimum in this stage.
 
snagency said:
On a bulk I feel you are pissing your money away with BCAA usage. There are other supps/pathways that are more optimum in this stage.
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I tend to agree with ya. Not just that, but at a certain threshold, you might as well just be taking whey protein or something--bang for the buck and all that. Though I did know someone who megadosed EAAs (yeah, those again) and he loved it. I wouldn't personally.
 
I think mega-dosing EAA's is overkill..

BUT, this brings up a good point: like anything else, BCAA's need to be cycled to remain effective, agreed? So I feel bulk time is perfect to lay off these & take advantage of other avenues..
 
Yea, I agree with both of you diets. I didn't know his diet really, so was unsure and figured he'd have sufficient amounts of protein throughout the day. You seem to be more familiar with him, so I'll go with your answer snagency :p

ffAA's are great on a cut, we can all agree on that :)
 
Awesome answer guys...and quick too...I step out of my office for a few minutes to answer some questions about some network issues and I get a buttload of responses...It sounds like it could be beneficial for me...I think I'll pick up the bulk BCAA's from nutraplanet and give it a try...
 
SoCo4Fun said:
oh yeah and I'm currently trying to cut up DG....
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Then yea, they'd be great to keep you an anabolic state as the fellas suggested. My answer was more for someone on a bulk who gets there amino acids supplied via whey, etc. Which would make them essentially unnecessary.
 
SoCo4Fun said:
oh yeah and I'm currently trying to cut up DG....
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Cuttin? Seriously, consider EAAs. There's that one great study looking at muscle loss and the ability of EAAs to help preserve lean mass. Granted, it wasn't looking at individuals cutting, but it makes a lot of sense.
 
I really like this thread :p

Reps all around for the great discussion :cheers:
 
Oh man, what a thread!

PRE:
1-1.5 hours prior:
- Anabolic Pump + 40g of whole grains/oats and whole meal
- might add a 25g of whey depending on daily intake at this point
30-45 mins prior:
- Beta Alanine / Citrulline Malate / Creatine / etc (Ragnarok + bulks)
- EAA/BCAA (Purple Wraath + Extend)

INTRA:
- EAA/BCAA/Glutamine
- Glutamine

POST:
Immediately:
- Finish EAA/BCAA
15-20 min:
- 48g Protein shake (ON 100% due to high Isolate count)
- 35g WMS
- Animal Pak (second half of my pak, the first of which I take at breakfast)
1 hour later:
- Whole meal
- Fish Oil


RE: Sipping EAA/BCAA all day
My (admittedly lacking) understanding is that you really cannot maintain an anabolic state (and promoting constant protein synthesis) all day due to your body's natural fight for homeostasis. Meaning, you have to spike your protein intake as well as your amino acids in order to elicit the strongest response from your body at opportune times. Instead of sipping EAA/BCAA all day, I spike spike my meals with protein as well as supplementing protein/aminos during key times such as upon waking, pre/post workout, and pre bedtime. All while making sure I do not go without some source of protein for more than 2-2.5 hours (even when I'm using a casein during the day, which I get from cottage cheese and Ultra Peptide/Syntha-6/my own casein blends, etc). I've experienced my greatest size gains while on a very slight calorie surplus and simply timing my carbohydrates (oats/grains/WMS), EAA/BCAA, and protein intake more strategically.

I could be all wrong about this, but my own OCD impulses take over, and have me thinking about it all day now that i've read this thread lol. I'd love to hear more discussion on this.
 
snagency said:
POST Workout Supplementation

Looking for some discussion on this topic: what do you feel is helpful or a necessity for POST w/o supplementation? Aside from the obvious (food/whey/WMS), what supps do you use in this window of time, right after training?

Breaking this down further: do you differentiate your supp usage in this timeframe from bulking mode to cutting mode?

And is there anything that you consider equally effective for both PRE & POST w/o supplementation? (again, other than food/whey/WMS)
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Pretty much all year round, I use, BCAA/Creatine/Beta Alanine pre and post. At times, I use ALA post workout with the mix.
 
on the topic of mega dosing aminos , does anyone have any thoughts or studies on mega dosing at levels of say 200-300gs a day, if cost wasn't an issue.
I was always under the impression that protein breaks down into aminos in the body anyway so I'm wondering if an intake this high have any muscle building effects
 
Mine is kinda simple. Rag(stim) preworkout, Xtend(BCAA's) pre-intra-post(sip on it the from start to finish), post I drink a whey protien shake, down 2 slices of whole grain bread(i I have WMS but havent issued it into my shakes yet, that will replace the bread) Then about an hour later I bake me a chicken breast, add desired seasoning(usually just peppercorn fresh ground and some garlic spice) And ready a bow of green beans. Take multi and fish oil also at that point. (also take em at lunch. A multi dont sit well with me in morning, I take it at lunch ,which is about 10:30 am)

Its nothing fancy. Just my current way until I start my next set of supps and my new workout routine once I am back from mexico. Then it will be a lil diff....
 
lkjh said:
on the topic of mega dosing aminos , does anyone have any thoughts or studies on mega dosing at levels of say 200-300gs a day, if cost wasn't an issue.
I was always under the impression that protein breaks down into aminos in the body anyway so I'm wondering if an intake this high have any muscle building effects
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it's possible...but there would be really no way to justify it. What would be your reasoning over other protein sources?

Save the mega dosing for cuts, imo






By the way, I'm thinking of experimenting with a dextrose/palatinose 1:1 ratio for pwo carbs. How's that sound to you guys? Then some leucine and whey in milk.
 
SokVichet said:
Oh man, what a thread!

PRE:
1-1.5 hours prior:
- Anabolic Pump + 40g of whole grains/oats and whole meal
- might add a 25g of whey depending on daily intake at this point
30-45 mins prior:
- Beta Alanine / Citrulline Malate / Creatine / etc (Ragnarok + bulks)
- EAA/BCAA (Purple Wraath + Extend)

INTRA:
- EAA/BCAA/Glutamine
- Glutamine

POST:
Immediately:
- Finish EAA/BCAA
15-20 min:
- 48g Protein shake (ON 100% due to high Isolate count)
- 35g WMS
- Animal Pak (second half of my pak, the first of which I take at breakfast)
1 hour later:
- Whole meal
- Fish Oil


RE: Sipping EAA/BCAA all day
My (admittedly lacking) understanding is that you really cannot maintain an anabolic state (and promoting constant protein synthesis) all day due to your body's natural fight for homeostasis. Meaning, you have to spike your protein intake as well as your amino acids in order to elicit the strongest response from your body at opportune times. Instead of sipping EAA/BCAA all day, I spike spike my meals with protein as well as supplementing protein/aminos during key times such as upon waking, pre/post workout, and pre bedtime. All while making sure I do not go without some source of protein for more than 2-2.5 hours (even when I'm using a casein during the day, which I get from cottage cheese and Ultra Peptide/Syntha-6/my own casein blends, etc). I've experienced my greatest size gains while on a very slight calorie surplus and simply timing my carbohydrates (oats/grains/WMS), EAA/BCAA, and protein intake more strategically.

I could be all wrong about this, but my own OCD impulses take over, and have me thinking about it all day now that i've read this thread lol. I'd love to hear more discussion on this.
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Very nice protocol Sok.

Gotta love the OCD (got a touch myself).

Re. your understanding of homeostasis - interesting viewpoint, but flawed I believe. In essence, this is what AAS do for an individual, keeping one in an anabolic state 24/7. There are many proponents who believe this can be done thru proper BCAA utilization. I myself feel and see a difference when utilizing this protocol thruout the day. Your daily strategy combined with additional timed BCAA consumption is geared to perpetual protein synthesis imo..
 
snagency said:
Very nice protocol Sok.

Gotta love the OCD (got a touch myself).

Re. your understanding of homeostasis - interesting viewpoint, but flawed I believe. In essence, this is what AAS do for an individual, keeping one in an anabolic state 24/7. There are many proponents who believe this can be done thru proper BCAA utilization. I myself feel and see a difference when utilizing this protocol thruout the day. Your daily strategy combined with additional timed BCAA consumption is geared to perpetual protein synthesis imo..
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Very nicely put as usual...I was waiting for you to handle that one snagency :p

Well put, and I agree with you on all of it. Maintaining a state of anabolism for as long as possible is ideal. Whether the body prefers a state of homeostasis or not is one thing, but it may not be as beneficial for our goals. The body also goes catabolic, but doesn't mean we don't try our best to prevent it.
 
Pre:

1 Anabolic Pump or P-slin (before pre-workout meal)
Beta Alanine 2g's
1 scoop ragnarok
600mg Icarian

Intra:

6-8 scoops Xtend

Post:

P-slin or Ap
80g's Waxy Maize
60g's Whey Isolate
2g's Beta-alanine


I don't use Icarian all the time but i capped a ton of it and it really adds to the pumps, also capped the beta-alanine which i LOVE.
 
fitfrancopro said:
Pretty much all year round, I use, BCAA/Creatine/Beta Alanine pre and post. At times, I use ALA post workout with the mix.
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Good to see ya drop in Joseph!

This touches on the last part of my original post too:

And is there anything that you consider equally effective for both PRE & POST w/o supplementation? (again, other than food/whey/WMS)
 
DaveGabe24 said:
Very nicely put as usual...I was waiting for you to handle that one snagency :p

Well put, and I agree with you on all of it. Maintaining a state of anabolism for as long as possible is ideal. Whether the body prefers a state of homeostasis or not is one thing, but it may not be as beneficial for our goals. The body also goes catabolic, but doesn't mean we don't try our best to prevent it.
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Thanks Dave.. Absolutely brother!
 
CHAPS said:
Pre:

1 Anabolic Pump or P-slin (before pre-workout meal)
Beta Alanine 2g's
1 scoop ragnarok
600mg Icarian

Intra:

6-8 scoops Xtend

Post:

P-slin or Ap
80g's Waxy Maize
60g's Whey Isolate
2g's Beta-alanine


I don't use Icarian all the time but i capped a ton of it and it really adds to the pumps, also capped the beta-alanine which i LOVE.
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I like Icarin..

Haven't seen ya for awhile man, thanx for posting. Question for you: what's your reasoning for using 2g BA on both sides of the workout?

Sidebar: Wasn't that you who was using AP prior to bed on an empty stomach awhile back? If so, still doing it?
 
I appreciate your responses Snag and DaveGabe, and for setting me straight. I've read several members I trust here sipping BCAA throughout the day, but have never tried it due to my misunderstanding described above.
 
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