maynehood171
Active member
Yeah I quickly had learned that running is impossible with shin pumps! :rant: haha I go about 1 mile before I have to lay down...
OTC Hormone Chart
- Thread starter Ziquor
- Start date
Yeah I quickly had learned that running is impossible with shin pumps! :rant: haha I go about 1 mile before I have to lay down...
LSU Gladiator
Member
I tried to run around a 4 mile lake and had to do it in shifts.
Trauma1
Legend
I had some wicked bad shoulder/back pumps at 100mg/day. I'd have to sit down between sets to rest lol!
BAARON
New member
M-drol is the way to go....the haladrol sounds pretty safe though, and makes ya feel good, I just couldnt imagine getting results from anything legal that are as impressive as the superdrol or M-drol...but the M-drol does make me feel very shitty when im on cycle, like im very depressed all day and I take 40mg a day which is what I take when I start seeing huge gains, Ive ran cycles of straight anadrol and not got the gains as I do from superdrol.
nunes
Well-known member
ziquor as you are German do you have any information on pharm-tech products?
I believe they are famous in Germany
I`m using oxa 17-dion and its seems to work fine...
REPS for your good post
Ziquor
Well-known member
No sorry Nunes! I live in good 'ole Pittsburgh, PA. My family is all 100% German but they came here to the US in the early 1900's.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Yeah I'm excited about running my M-Drol ED and pulsing the TST. I also just picked up a bottle of Pheradrol. Is was discontinued but I hear it's a really good Phera clone?
Mass_69
Well-known member
I have a couple of corrections, but first I have to ask why this was stickied? I'm not trying to knock your effort Ziquor, but a more complete guide like this has already been done on this board: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/64820-designer-steroid-prohormone.html
The only items that are not included in that link are the ones that are now illegal, meaning they shouldn't be in the OTC thread either.
Either way, here are some additions/corrections I would like to add.
1. Halodrol is actually a prohormone to Turinabol. Yes the -diol prohormones tend to have some activity on their own, but it's weak compared to the parent 3-one hormone. This would be the same comparison with 1-androstenediol (1-AD), 4-androstenediol (4-AD), M-1,4-ADD, etc.
2. I'm no Patrick Arnold, but I don't believe that Max-LMG converts to nandrolone. The compound, 13-ethyl-3-methoxy-gona-2,5(10)-diene-17-one, appears to be a prohormone (after reacting with 17b-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase [17b-HSD] the 17-one will become 17-ol), but I don't see any way it could become 19-norandrost-4-ene-3-one-17b-ol.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Thanks for the input. I love the Sinners thread. I just made this more for a quick reference having the info more 'condensed' plus to show what's PH vs Active. I always assumed Halo was a PH but many guys told me it's an active roid having a Q ratio of 2.8 whereas OT's is 8.883. Also would you happen to know what LMG converts to? I got some of the chart info from PA's writings. Let me know and I'll make the changes - thanks! I also wanted to include stuff like M1T becuase people (newbs) still ask about them constantly.
Mass_69
Well-known member
Yeah, the PH vs. Active is pretty much symantics. Testosterone is active, but can convert to DHT or estradiol, both of which are "active" too. To be honest, I have no idea "what" Max-LMG converts to. Some kind of progestin that you'd probably have to find in the Vida Text.
Halodrol's structure is 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol. Many of the other -diols are said to be able to bind to the AR I believe because of the 17b-ol, but their activity is weaker than their 3=O (3-one) parent. Like my previous post said, this also applies to the other -diol prohormones such as 1-AD, 4-AD, etc.
As far as the stuff like M1T, maybe someone should compile a "Nostalgia" thread for the now-banned Prohormones & Designers. I'm sure there is actually already some sort of compilation like this, but I'm about to sign off, so I don't have time to look.
Halodrol's structure is 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol. Many of the other -diols are said to be able to bind to the AR I believe because of the 17b-ol, but their activity is weaker than their 3=O (3-one) parent. Like my previous post said, this also applies to the other -diol prohormones such as 1-AD, 4-AD, etc.
As far as the stuff like M1T, maybe someone should compile a "Nostalgia" thread for the now-banned Prohormones & Designers. I'm sure there is actually already some sort of compilation like this, but I'm about to sign off, so I don't have time to look.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Good info. I wish I knew more about chemistry but it never really interested me until lately. Does anybody yet know what the new Ergo 1-AD will be? I know it can't be the same formula as the original due to legalities.
maynehood171
Active member
I don't know but according to some guy he mentioned that PA said that it will convert to 1-Test so this will be interesting...
LSU Gladiator
Member
I just looked, and it says it on their site. That's pretty bad ayuss.
Nostalgia.
That makes me curious, are there any other BAMF products coming out from other brands?
Nostalgia.
That makes me curious, are there any other BAMF products coming out from other brands?
Ziquor
Well-known member
CEL is supposed to be releasing a new hormonal soon but they still haven't said what it is yet.
intwo
New member
i wish i had a ebook of vida's book, iv'e been looking i found a copy at the ucla biomed lib but they said it was 'lost', the next nearest copy would be at the CA state library and that's like 10hr away
MuscleBound1337
Active member
Doesn't Halodrol convert to OT? Shouldn't that be on the prohormone list?
Ziquor
Well-known member
Seems to be the question of the month. I always thought it was a PH but many told me that it's an active hormone of its own needing no conversion. Also people who've used both also stated they feel/work very differently.
MuscleBound1337
Active member
I was under the impression it had a very high conversion rate to OT, but then again I never saw any scientific explanation for it.
tilerbreaker
New member
I like this chart a lot!
The only other things I can think of are propadrol (EST) and the new formulation for 3-AD (2-androstenol acetate --> Madol)...if you're looking to update again...
Thanks for making that chart...I hope more people take a look at it...
The only other things I can think of are propadrol (EST) and the new formulation for 3-AD (2-androstenol acetate --> Madol)...if you're looking to update again...
Thanks for making that chart...I hope more people take a look at it...
Mass_69
Well-known member
See my posts earlier in the thread: #58 Invalid Link Removed & #60 Invalid Link Removed
Ziquor
Well-known member
ALL - I updated the charts with a couple additional compounds and I moved Halo & Promag per your suggestions. Thanks for the input!
Ziquor
Well-known member
One thing that confuses me about active vs. non is some say that chemicals need to be 17b-Hydroxy-3-One to be active. But I also heard that compounds just need the 17b-Hydroxy (or 17b-ol - same thing) to be considered active. When PH's are digested - your bodies 17b-Hydroxy (17b-ol) enzymes are what makes the PH active. Also Phera is a highly active steroid & it doesn't have the 3-one on it? Damn I guess that's why I didn't go to school for chemistry.
tilerbreaker
New member
As I understand it, the steroid must have the 17beta-OH (hydroxy) group to be able to bind the androgen receptor (which is what makes it active and lets it do its thing). Many other carbon positions on the steroid can be modified with different groups and this gives different effects on how well the steroid binds and activates the receptor (i.e. 11-keto, 7-methyl, 19-nor, etc.). I can't really explain any better, 'cause I'm still trying to get my head around all these modifications myself...
Anyway, I personally think there could be some other things going on, like effects of different metabolites, non-androgen receptor mediated effects, possibly effects that occur through the excess of the steroid and it's metabolites binding and occupying various enzymes (HSDs etc) so that they can't carry out other functions. Maybe there are even different types of receptors that act completely differently than the known androgen receptor (such as seems to be the case for estrogen). Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of active research into the mechanisms of steroid activity b/c they've largely been given up by much of the medical community & pharmaceutical industry (who have moved on to "SARMs," myostatin, etc.
Wow...sorry to rant on...hopefully I threw out some food for thought though...
DS
Anyway, I personally think there could be some other things going on, like effects of different metabolites, non-androgen receptor mediated effects, possibly effects that occur through the excess of the steroid and it's metabolites binding and occupying various enzymes (HSDs etc) so that they can't carry out other functions. Maybe there are even different types of receptors that act completely differently than the known androgen receptor (such as seems to be the case for estrogen). Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of active research into the mechanisms of steroid activity b/c they've largely been given up by much of the medical community & pharmaceutical industry (who have moved on to "SARMs," myostatin, etc.
Wow...sorry to rant on...hopefully I threw out some food for thought though...
DS
Mass_69
Well-known member
Ziquor said:
I think tilerbreaker hit it on the head here. There are so many different chemical changes to a hormone that can change the signals it sends, or "activity" in the body. In the original AX/DS write-up for Phera-Plex, it states, "Studies on the A-ring reduced version of 2-ene™ indicate extensive metabolism to the 3-keto analogue." A-ring reduced means it's been reduced by 5a or 5b-reductase. Phera is 5a-reduced. Perhaps Phera is really a "prohormone" to something more potent? Perhaps this explains the "wet" effects Phera tends to have although it does not directly aromatize. The write-up later goes on to say, "...there is a chance of very mild indirect aromatisation with 2-ene™ (from a metabolite, as it cannot aromatise directly itself)..."
Active is a very relative term. The prohormones (namely 3b,17b-diols) can be "active" and bind to the AR, but may not be as "active" or potent in terms of anabolic or androgenic as their 3-one-17b-ol parents or metabolites.
LSU Gladiator
Member
Breaker, aren't SARMS to be hoped for though? No more PCT, no more destruction of the HPTA, elevated blood pressure, or erectile dysfunction...
All the muscle, and none of the terrible sides.
Hooray science!:cheers:
All the muscle, and none of the terrible sides.
Hooray science!:cheers:
jcdenton
New member
Really good work mate!!!
I wanna ask how do you know that Halodrol is slightly more androgenic and slightly less anabolic than Oral Turinabol?
If that is true is better to use the original OT if I want to avoid androgenic sides? Is possible that the androgenic value of Oral Turinabol is near 0 (Anabolics 2006)? Thanks
I wanna ask how do you know that Halodrol is slightly more androgenic and slightly less anabolic than Oral Turinabol?
If that is true is better to use the original OT if I want to avoid androgenic sides? Is possible that the androgenic value of Oral Turinabol is near 0 (Anabolics 2006)? Thanks
nunes
Well-known member
if it seems to good to be true...it probably is
Ziquor
Well-known member
A chemist who tested the compound along with someone who was involved with the original synthesis of Halo both provided the info. It seems to me H-Drol is sorta a PH and PS both. I BELIEVE it gets converted by the body to some extent to OT - and also has some activity of its own therefore creating a slightly different profile than OT. Halo's listed with Q ratio (Anabolic:Androgenic) of 2.6 so it's 2.6 times more anabolic than androgenic whereas OT has a Q of 8.83 being 8.83 times more anabolic than androgenic. A rough guesstimate based on information from Vida, Wiki, and the manufactures - I'd say Halo's A:A is somewhere near 78:30 with OT being 111:13 - just my hypothesis. OT's listed in reference books with a anabolic number of 53 and andro of 6 HOWEVER this is based on a scale from 1-100 and Vida uses a whole different scale - this's what I base my above guesstimate on.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Sad - but almost always true.
LSU Gladiator
Member
It won't always be that way. I think there are bright minds improving on nature as we speak.
Go to scholar.google or pubmed and search for:
JNJ-28330835
or
S-4
Those are on wikipedia.com. If you do a scientific literature search for SARM, you will find a HOST of other proposed agents that selectively mimic the effects of androgens.
These compounds are being researched by pharmaceutical developers, NOT MUSCLETECH!
Probably not. It would probably be DRAMATICALLY weaker than the test analogs of today, but if something adds 6lbs of mass in a month and it can be continued for 4 months without damaging the HPTA, liver, etc, then we are (IMHO) better off.
hsfootball
New member
what does the chart mean by "already active". When referring to the steroid section.
jmh80
Well-known member
Needs to conversion to become a steroid.
Example - M1T already active, but 1-AD wasn't (has to convert to 1-test).
EasyEJL
Never enough
it means that it doesn't require a conversion by a bodily chemical/process to be anabolic, it has direct activity as it is. a number of compounds require bodily enzymes to convert them to an anabolic compound. 1-AD is the most famous example, it by itself put in a petri dish with muscle tissue would do nothing, but some enzyme in the body converts it to 1-testosterone
n8te
Well-known member
at the risk of making you or anyone else repeat themself Invalid Link Removed
this stuff is already active? Sorry i'm asking but I'm trying to put together a cycle at the moment and just want to makes sure I'm choosing a good product.
Also I don't know much about OmnEvol except that its hard to get a hold of around here as of late, i have a few friends taking it and i was wondering what exactly they can expect as far as wet v. dry results. any info would be appreciated.
EasyEJL
Never enough
yes, the pplex is already active. But active vs prohormone doesn't make a product good or bad, its just different. Anyone here would happily trade a bottle of some of the active compounds for a bottle or two of 1-ad, a prohormone. Its all about the compound specifics.
Omnevol is the halodrol/superdrol/pheraplex combo? I can't remember offhand
Omnevol is the halodrol/superdrol/pheraplex combo? I can't remember offhand
LSU Gladiator
Member
:wave:
n8te
Well-known member
i believe so yes
One and Only
New member
SUPERDROL ROCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
(m-drol is a great product):thumbsup:
(m-drol is a great product):thumbsup:
Ziquor
Well-known member
No - but best I can say it's pretty high. You can't really compare Halo to OT as they have slightly different properties and really Halo is its own Steroid. In reality H-Drol should be on the steroids chart. Once in the body it binds to the androgen receptor without any conversion needed as it has activity on its own. On top of having activity without conversion, after it makes first pass it does convert to Oral Turinabol I'd estimate at decently high rates. Thus making it slightly different than OT as mentioned - it's slightly more androgenic and slightly less anabolic due to it converting to OT plus having its own activity. Another example is the original 4-AD. It was modeled as a testosterone PH. But it had some activity of its own as well on the receptors. Hence it converted to test but was slightly more androgenic & slightly less anabolic due to its own activity at the receptors.
Grote Bink
New member
Sorry, but it is different. I live in Western-Europe and hormones and prohormones are practically all illegal. The EU has much higher restrictions on even prohormones than the US. I now and then use prohormones, but cannot buy them here exept for Mass FX and one or two others. If I need to buy some, I need to buy it via American sites.
Ziquor
Well-known member
REALLY? That's weird because M1T is the most potent, toxic sterid ever sold OTC and they sell it on tons of UK websites. They don't dare even put it on US sites though. I know many people from the US who ordered M1T from Europe. Which's very stupid IMO since it's a possible felony conviction. What part of Europe do you live? I was in the UK last year. And they definitely still do use heroin (diamorphine) in hospitals which's strange.
Grote Bink
New member
I live in The Netherlands and practically no internetsite nor shop here nor e.g. in Germany or France do sell prohormones. In Europe, we see the US as the prohormone paradise.
I don't know about Diamorphine in The Netherlands, I have to ask a colleagues who's wife works in a hospital.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Ahhh my bad. Sorry - I was sorta vague when I said Europe. I meant England/UK specifically.
Ziquor
Well-known member
BTW do you live anywhere near Amsterdam? Talk about a paradise for substances! I've always wanted to go there.
tnick7
Active member
I live in the UK and you can walk into any supplement store, non sell prohormones/steroids of any type. All the more legit UK online retail stores do not sell ph/ds either. The use of AAS is legal in the UK, but the selling of them is a felony. I think that prohormones/steroids are in the same category, hence the only ones really sold in the UK are the ones that are disguised as natural eg MASS TABS, therefore its actually harder to access ph/ds in the UK IMO. However there are no legal issues with M-1T etc etc