Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow

[JanSz]

197 tests and numbers??? That sounds daunting and more.


I do very much appreciate your efforts and will PM you.

You can deal with the 197 the easy or the hard way.
Your choice.

The easy way that I found:

Genova Diagnostic

Estroessence 24hr
NutrEval-NEW

eat everything that they recomend, repeat the tests, I do not know how often, say 4 months.

I got frome HAN additional tweaks
-----------------
instead of folate use (totally bio available version)
Invalid Link Removed
FolaPro, Metagenics M126L,
preferred form of folate called L-5-methyl tetrahydrofolate (L-5-MTHF) requires no additional metabolic steps to be utilized by the body
------------------
Do not use cyano-cobalamin

Get B12 shots of Methyl-cobalamin from compounding pharmacy
-----------------

P5P is the best form of b-6. pyridoxal 5’phosphate coenzyme
------------------

Hopefully HAN will keep them comming.
===================================================
Yeah, I know, those test cost money.
So it all depends on level of misery.

At least now you know about, and it is your choice what you do with this information.

 

[anyman]

Finally starting to see some positive changes, but remain puzzled at low DHT. Ideas?

Well, finally starting to see some positive changes here, although I have a way to go. After being on 160mg/week of T cyp + 300iu of hcg 2x/week, I finally see a rise in T. Got the following:

T: 566 (241-827)
E: <32 (<52)
SBHG: 12 (8-46 scale)
DHT: 22 (25-75 scale)
DHEAS: 247(45-345 scale)
Cortisol: 22.2 (4-22 scale)

T is finally getting better and a at last notice a change in energy and disposition. Unfortunately, erections remain weak and erratic. Could the very low DHT be at issue? What about the still high cortisol? By way of background, I did take Finistaride a good 8 or so years ago, albeit only for a month or less.

If DHT is the culprit as I suspect, what can/should I do? Do I try a little topical Androgel? If yes, how much and hoe often? Or, do I just give the T cyp more time to work? I've only been on it about 5-6 weeks.

 

[wildfox]

Are you taking any herbal supplements like Saw Palmetto that might be blocking conversion to DHT?

 

[anyman]

Nope. No Saw Palmetto. I take Selegiline, 5htp and a thyroid supp.

Are you taking any herbal supplements like Saw Palmetto that might be blocking conversion to DHT?

I take nothing like that. I take the above plus some vitamins, etc., but that's it. I can't help but wonder if my very low DHT is a big factor. Hmmmm....

 

[cpeil2]

Do I try a little topical Androgel? If yes, how much and hoe often? Or, do I just give the T cyp more time to work? I've only been on it about 5-6 weeks.

That's an interesting idea - boost your 5AR activity a little with the transdermal to bring your DHT within range. What do you think your doc would say?

 

[anyman]

That's exactly what I want to ask him when we next speak @ the end of the month (m)

That's an interesting idea - boost your 5AR activity a little with the transdermal to bring your DHT within range. What do you think your doc would say?

Figured I'd seek the collective experience/wisdom of those here as well and share what I've learned for others' benefit.

 

[anyman]

Interesting and possibly troublesome development. Opinions wanted.

While I at least see an improvement now that T cyp is all the way up to 180 mg/week (90 mg 2x/week), which is up from 160mg, I am beginning to notice a trend--and not one I think is a good one, especially since I saw the same thing on hcg alone.

Every time I up the dose of something I feel good for a little bit and then, after a week or 2, tend to slide back a bit. I am noticing the same thing with T cyp. After a week or so of feeling better I again notice fatigue and malaise creeping back up a bit.

My first suspicion is, of course, higher levels of Estrogen. But, every blood test thus far saw E2 is still "under 32". Yes, many say this test is BS, but so far it's all I've got until I can convince Dr. S to get me the so called "ultra sensitive" one.

Is it possible that I might simply be more susceptible to aromatization and estrogen, even if the same level in most every one else would not create issues? This would make sense, since I seem exceedingly predisposed to having bad luck with TRT at every turn. It might also be possible that I simply havn't given myself enough time to level off. This is possible, I suppose, but I vie it as less likely. What I dreaded the most is coming to pass: Spending all of time making myself a living science experiment and worrying about an endless stream of stupid blood tests and readings. Gotta break this cycle, hence my post here.

So, what does the collective wisdom/experience have to say?

 

[wildfox]

Are you getting the "highly sensitive assay" estradiol test done? There's more than one test. You may need several months for your receptors to adjust to the greater T and let T "win-out" over the E you have.

 

[anyman]

No, I am not yet using the "ultra sensitive" test, but will be asking for it.

Are you getting the "highly sensitive assay" estradiol test done? There's more than one test. You may need several months for your receptors to adjust to the greater T and let T "win-out" over the E you have.

Can't hurt- I'll definitely be asking for it.

 

[anyman]

Now the situation is weirder still. How can an increase in Tcyp result in LOWER T?

To recap- On 160mg/week of T cyp (2 shots/week @ 80mg each) brought me to 566 or so, with E under 32. Still waiting for the OK to get an "ultra sensitive" Estrogen test.

After 2 weeks on a full 180mg (90mg 2x/week) I got tested again Get this: T DROPPED to 422, although E was still "below 32". Explains why I am still often tired and cranky.

WTF?? This is not making any sense. I am on a compounded T3/T4 pill, hcg, topical selegiline and various vitamins, etc. How the hell could this happen? I have triple checked and the 1mL syringes are indeed being filled to .45 for the 200mg/mL T I have or .9mL or the 100 mg/mL bottle I had.

This isn't just puzzling. Now it's really starting to piss me off!

Any suggestions or ideas?

 

[JanSz]

To recap- On 160mg/week of T cyp (2 shots/week @ 80mg each) brought me to 566 or so, with E under 32. Still waiting for the OK to get an "ultra sensitive" Estrogen test.

After 2 weeks on a full 180mg (90mg 2x/week) I got tested again Get this: T DROPPED to 422, although E was still "below 32". Explains why I am still often tired and cranky.

WTF?? This is not making any sense. I am on a compounded T3/T4 pill, hcg, topical selegiline and various vitamins, etc. How the hell could this happen? I have triple checked and the 1mL syringes are indeed being filled to .45 for the 200mg/mL T I have or .9mL or the 100 mg/mL bottle I had.

This isn't just puzzling. Now it's really starting to piss me off!

Any suggestions or ideas?

Consider:

switching to EOD schedule, if that is easy, do ED.
T shots every day, until next blood test.
HCG do E2D, every other day.

when testing do:

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
-----------------------------

At the same time, two other ideas:

Do test NutrEval at Genova

Also:
Zinc Tally
and
Betaine HCL + Pepsin

read what and how:
Invalid Link Removed
-------------------------------------------------------

 

[anyman]

Now I am TOTALLY confused. Dr now thinks I have a weird metabolic issue!

I am beginning to get both pissed and quite concerned.

180mg/week of T cyp have done not a damned thing. Still feeling fatigued and a frequent malaise. At this level of T I should be a damned bodybuilder.

Bottom line: Dr now thinks I may some some as yet undiagnosed metabolic issue that is causing my liver, etc to rip through T (and likely other hormones as well) like they aren't even there. In his words "the drain is way bigger than the spigot". Good analogy.

Since hcg seems to have brought on some of the depression, I am to temporarily stop it and see what happens for a few weeks. He does not think I'll lose anything substantial by trying this for a few weeks. I am also to try "cobalt" drops to slow the metabolic process and then, once add'l blood is drawn, likely do a full Rhein labs 24hr urine/hormone profile. We go from there. Never heard of this stuff.

I admit to becoming a bit discouraged. Never wanted to become a goddamned living science experiment, but here I am. So much for living a normal life.....

 

[JanSz]

I am beginning to get both pissed and quite concerned.

180mg/week of T cyp have done not a damned thing. Still feeling fatigued and a frequent malaise. At this level of T I should be a damned bodybuilder.

Bottom line: Dr now thinks I may some some as yet undiagnosed metabolic issue that is causing my liver, etc to rip through T (and likely other hormones as well) like they aren't even there. In his words "the drain is way bigger than the spigot". Good analogy.

Since hcg seems to have brought on some of the depression, I am to temporarily stop it and see what happens for a few weeks. He does not think I'll lose anything substantial by trying this for a few weeks. I am also to try "cobalt" drops to slow the metabolic process and then, once add'l blood is drawn, likely do a full Rhein labs 24hr urine/hormone profile. We go from there. Never heard of this stuff.

I admit to becoming a bit discouraged. Never wanted to become a goddamned living science experiment, but here I am. So much for living a normal life.....

And you do not even give a thought to nutriotional testing,
why?

 

[anyman]

Why no nutritional testing? Two reasons: Not allowed in my state and I eat well (more

And you do not even give a thought to nutriotional testing,
why?

1) Can't get a prescription for that as Genova will NOT do this for residents of my state. Seems such is prohibited. Don't know why, but it is. How stupid.

2) I generally eat well and a balanced diet. I decline to eat rocks, shrubs and roots exclusively. Seems that EVERYTHING we eat or touch causes everything from low T to a bad hair day. Enough already. If we as a species are this pathetically weak then I fear for our future.

I have called Genova labs-they won't help me as certain states don't allow them, for lack of a better reason. Don't know of any other entities offering similar services. Also, I reluctantly admit to a little skepticism. Billions of people live perfectly normal lives eating WAY worse than I do and without half the exercise I do. Why can't I?

Still, I am open to suggestions. The Dr told me to try "cobalt" for a bit and then a "Rhein Labs" 24 hour hormone panel. Should be interesting. I am, however, getting tired of all this.

 

[JanSz]

1) Can't get a prescription for that as Genova will NOT do this for residents of my state. Seems such is prohibited. Don't know why, but it is. How stupid.

2) I generally eat well and a balanced diet. I decline to eat rocks, shrubs and roots exclusively. Seems that EVERYTHING we eat or touch causes everything from low T to a bad hair day. Enough already. If we as a species are this pathetically weak then I fear for our future.

I have called Genova labs-they won't help me as certain states don't allow them, for lack of a better reason. Don't know of any other entities offering similar services. Also, I reluctantly admit to a little skepticism. Billions of people live perfectly normal lives eating WAY worse than I do and without half the exercise I do. Why can't I?

Still, I am open to suggestions. The Dr told me to try "cobalt" for a bit and then a "Rhein Labs" 24 hour hormone panel. Should be interesting. I am, however, getting tired of all this.

This part:

"I am, however, getting tired of all this"

should be a big factor in doctor's mind when making any advice.

Do not know about cobalt, but can tell you that Rhein is not going to solve your disappearing testosterone puzzle.
Rethink about daily T shots, but adjust your individual dose so your average weekly stays same.
Also use smallest syringe, 3/10cc, the amouts of oil will be so small that you would make large mistakes if using larger syringes.

 

[jpk]

Aromatase Activity?

Jan and Man,

Perhaps the key here is aromatase activity. Has there been any discussion of an aromatase inhibitor to establish a more favorable test to estrogen ratio?

Just my 2 pesos....:stick:

 

[jpk]

One more thing...

Cortisol levels seem awfully high. Have you tried any cortisol modulation strategies?

Best of luck bro!

 

[anyman]

Thanks- thus far, however, Estrogen has not been as much of a concern.

Jan and Man,

Perhaps the key here is aromatase activity. Has there been any discussion of an aromatase inhibitor to establish a more favorable test to estrogen ratio?

Just my 2 pesos....:stick:

So far, my E levels seem low, at least in relation to everything else.

 

[anyman]

Update: The cobalt seems to be having a positive effect.

Seems the cobalt is doing some good. I have noticeably more energy and seems to feel better all around. Weird. At times I feel like I did 10 years ago--before all this BS.

I can only hope that cobalt is doing what Dr S hoped it would. So far, so good (fingers crossed).

Mucking things up, at least temporarily, was an apparently "bad" vial of name brand (Depo-T) T cyp. One bottle would quickly precipitate and leave large crystals that could never completely be re-dissolved. Looks very different from the others I now have. I have contacted the Mfgr.

And, yes, I did take into account this bottle when evaluating the cobalt. I tested times with and without it, both before and after cobalt. This vial does much less for me whether on or off cobalt.

 

[anyman]

The Dr is convinced that Cortisol will drop when the other hormones are in order.

Cortisol levels seem awfully high. Have you tried any cortisol modulation strategies?

Best of luck bro!

Dr S tells me that elevated cortisol is, in my case at least, a symptom and not the cause. We shall see......

 

[anyman]

Update: First blood after (just barely) starting Cobalt: Interesting results.

Interesting results. Had blood drawn only a few days into the cobalt to see where things stood before being on it awhile. T is higher, but so is Estradiol. Hmmmmm... Here are the results based on 160 mg of T cyp (2x80mg/week) and 150iu of hcg 2x/week:

Total T: 598 (Range: 241-827)
Estradiol 48 (<54 is "normal")
TSH: 1.1 (.40-4.5)
T4, free: 1.0 (.8-1.8)
T3, free: 348 (230-420)
Cortisol: 16.8 (4-22)
DHEAS: 259 (45-345)
DHT: Pending


Interesting- This is the highest I have seen T go, while E is also much higher. It is normally under 32, yet now shoots to 48. I wonder if an AI like DIM is in order? Cortisol, while still high, is for the first time not over range.

I'll be having a further draw in another 3-4 weeks to see what effect the Cobalt has really had. I note I felt the best I had in months for a few weeks, right after we started the Cobalt, but them slid a bit, where I remain. My personal guess is that I felt best when the T was highest, but before E was also kicked up. I could be wrong and invite comments/opinions. Let's hope that might often bizarre odyssey will help others similarly afflicted.

 

[JanSz]

Interesting results. Had blood drawn only a few days into the cobalt to see where things stood before being on it awhile. T is higher, but so is Estradiol. Hmmmmm... Here are the results based on 160 mg of T cyp (2x80mg/week) and 150iu of hcg 2x/week:

Total T: 598 (Range: 241-827)
Estradiol 48 (<54 is "normal")
TSH: 1.1 (.40-4.5)
T4, free: 1.0 (.8-1.8)
T3, free: 348 (230-420)
Cortisol: 16.8 (4-22)
DHEAS: 259 (45-345)
DHT: Pending


Interesting- This is the highest I have seen T go, while E is also much higher. It is normally under 32, yet now shoots to 48. I wonder if an AI like DIM is in order? Cortisol, while still high, is for the first time not over range.

I'll be having a further draw in another 3-4 weeks to see what effect the Cobalt has really had. I note I felt the best I had in months for a few weeks, right after we started the Cobalt, but them slid a bit, where I remain. My personal guess is that I felt best when the T was highest, but before E was also kicked up. I could be wrong and invite comments/opinions. Let's hope that might often bizarre odyssey will help others similarly afflicted.

I am glad that you are making progress, (you feel better).
Watch that cobalt, make sure you stop using it in time.

When have you had your blood drawn in relation to the T shot?

Lots of guessing could be avoided if you could:
have larger individual HCG shots (380iu per shot)
have blood test done at Quest
have proper tests done there
do you shots on EOD schedule, (T & hcg) on alternate days

TotalT without the rest onformation does not allow to figure out your T status.
Your e2 test looks unusual, hard to say if it is high or low.

Watch out the large amount of Test vials you just bought.
Do not use them past expiration date.
======================================================
Ok, stopping rant, start guesing game.
Day after shot you have got your peak TT-100%
On day 6 you would have got half life TT-50%
You are injecting every 3.5 days
on day 3.5 we see TT-75%
but we are after average TT, that is in the middle
(100+75)/2=87.5
Your average TT=598/0.875=683

This is the number you would most likely got if you have switched to EOD shots
===========================================================
On post #9
Invalid Link Removed
your
SHBG 11 (8-46)
you need TT~750
you are close, not there yet
but
your SHBG is very low,
per some dr Marianco opinions, you will newer feel good until you do frequent shots.

this thread you have started 08-07-2007, 11:03 PM
about time to have lick you problem.

Have you ever got opinion of what is the reason for your such a low SHBG.
I bet if you figured that one out your life would be easier.
But you live in NY State, we have already been there.

 

[OldGator]

Speaking of Estrogen

E is also much higher. It is normally under 32, yet now shoots to 48. I wonder if an AI like DIM is in order?

Anyman,
As you know we share the same doctor. My E has always been on the low normal range so luckily I have never dealt with him on high estrogen issues but I do supplement every day with PP's Sustain Alpha (transdermal with resveratrol and anti-e formula) and LEF's "Breast Health" which contains DIM, I3C, Cruciferous Veggies, and Calcium DG which are all good anti-E's. (I think JanSz also takes the Breast Health). Yeah BH is made for women but it's a great anti-E IMO. Anyway, I started taking these supplements right before doc started pushing up my test with HCG injections and my E stayed nice and low the whole way. Can't say for sure but I think the supps really helped.

Here's my question: Doesn't our doc use a prescrition anti-E when needed (like possibly in your case) like Arimidex (or LiquiDex)?? Have you asked him about that? I would be interested in that because I seem to recall someone saying our doc doesn't like to use prescription anti-E's which makes no sense when he is a leading HRT doc.

 

[anyman]

From what I hear, the Dr normally uses something called chrysin.

Anyman,
As you know we share the same doctor. My E has always been on the low normal range so luckily I have never dealt with him on high estrogen issues but I do supplement every day with PP's Sustain Alpha (transdermal with resveratrol and anti-e formula) and LEF's "Breast Health" which contains DIM, I3C, Cruciferous Veggies, and Calcium DG which are all good anti-E's. (I think JanSz also takes the Breast Health). Yeah BH is made for women but it's a great anti-E IMO. Anyway, I started taking these supplements right before doc started pushing up my test with HCG injections and my E stayed nice and low the whole way. Can't say for sure but I think the supps really helped.

Here's my question: Doesn't our doc use a prescrition anti-E when needed (like possibly in your case) like Arimidex (or LiquiDex)?? Have you asked him about that? I would be interested in that because I seem to recall someone saying our doc doesn't like to use prescription anti-E's which makes no sense when he is a leading HRT doc.

Chrysin is supposedly topical nad rather weak. I may try DIM and in the interim, which I bought but never really used, and will look into "Breast Health". Never heard of it.

I called the office yesterday to see what he recommends, but the office is closed till Monday. My gut tells me that the issue is now higher E, especially since I felt incredibly better for a few days, which I think might be just before E rose after the initial T boost. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I suspect. I'll look into LEF's stuff and call the Dr on Monday.

Thanks, as always.

 

[OldGator]

Chrysin is OTC and not very strong IMO. It is in several supplement products including a product by LEF called SuperMiraForte which I also use. You can check out this product - and "Breast Health" - at the LEF website at Invalid Link Removed

Also I believe some use Nature's Way DIM.

That being said, I would hope the doc is not adverse to using something along the lines of Arimidex/Liquidex for higher estrogen issues. The natural supps mentioned above only get you so far.

Keep us posted on your conversation with the doc. Thanks and good luck.

 

[JanSz]

Anyman,
As you know we share the same doctor. My E has always been on the low normal range so luckily I have never dealt with him on high estrogen issues but I do supplement every day with PP's Sustain Alpha (transdermal with resveratrol and anti-e formula) and LEF's "Breast Health" which contains DIM, I3C, Cruciferous Veggies, and Calcium DG which are all good anti-E's. (I think JanSz also takes the Breast Health). Yeah BH is made for women but it's a great anti-E IMO. Anyway, I started taking these supplements right before doc started pushing up my test with HCG injections and my E stayed nice and low the whole way. Can't say for sure but I think the supps really helped.

Here's my question: Doesn't our doc use a prescrition anti-E when needed (like possibly in your case) like Arimidex (or LiquiDex)?? Have you asked him about that? I would be interested in that because I seem to recall someone saying our doc doesn't like to use prescription anti-E's which makes no sense when he is a leading HRT doc.

Until week or so ago, I was using LEF.org
DualAction
and
Breast Formula.

About Breast Formula I was taking a beating on dr John's board, because it contains soy products.

I stopped both of them because they contain very little DIM and a lot of cruciferous extracts and I3C plus some other.

The theory is that I3C and cruciferous extracts are being converted in the stomach in presence of stomach acids.

After reading this article:
Invalid Link Removed
and trying BetaineHCL, I know that my stomach acids are very low.
I am using 4 Betaine HCL pills with meals 2x/day.

So my next guess was to switch to DIM only.
IIRC, Johnathan Wright MD is also making this type of comment, ie; I3C is theoretically good but practically many men are acid deficient.

So now I am using
DIM Powder
DIM Dindoly Methane Invalid Link Removed started 2/22/08 night

Wish me luck.

But as I am writting this I have a thought,
my pines is getting somewhat weaker.
Not sure if this is due to this change or something else.
Will have to do blood test.
Not that bad run, for last blood test I had
blood drawn 8/30/07

 

[OldGator]

Anyman's Estrogen

About Breast Formula I was taking a beating on dr John's board, because it contains soy products.
I stopped both of them because they contain very little DIM and a lot of cruciferous extracts and I3C plus some other.
The theory is that I3C and cruciferous extracts are being converted in the stomach in presence of stomach acids.
So my next guess was to switch to DIM only.

Good Luck JanSz. I will have to look into this also but those supps you just quit using have held my E in check quite nicely.

JanSz, in any event, you are also using Liquidex, correct? So that would be leading the way in your anti-E protocol anyway. I am concerned if Anyman's (and my) doc doesn't use any prescription anti-E's and only relies on chrysin - a weak anti-E in several OTC supplements. Don't you agree?

 

[OldGator]

More "natural" ant-E info

Looked at the Beyond A Century website JanSz referred to and found this info on chrysin:
CHRYSIN is an isoflavone (5,7-dihydroxyflavone) from Passiflora that inhibits aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone and androstenedione to estrogen.
Yeah Anyman, it would make me a little uneasy if Doc only relies on an isoflavone for his anti-E effort. But I know he is a big believer in isoflavones (soy products) as an anti-E and touts them in his book as well. Dr. John, on the other hand (as mentioned by JanSz's experience on Dr. John's board) seems to talk down - if not outright avoid - isoflavones. What gives? I'm confused.

This natural anti-E on Beyond a Century looked like the best formula to me:
ANTI-ESTROGEN FORMULA. A dose of this formula contains 100mg DIM, 500mg chrysin, and 125mg nettle root extract, to help maintain healthy hormone levels** by inhibiting the conversion of testosterone or androstenedione to estradiol and estrone, with 5mg Bioperine to enhance absorption. 50 grams, 66 doses. $22.50 Code 521.9
(For comparison, LEF's Breast Health formula only contains 14mg of DIM).
BTW, JanSz, why not just go for this formula instead of DIM only?

Still nothing could take the place of a Arimidex/LiquiDex if that what was truly needed. Anyman's E of 48 up there and going higher so I question what chrysin alone can do.

 

[anyman]

Agree 100%, Old Gator. While incremental changes are good, sometimes more is needed.

Looked at the Beyond A Century website JanSz referred to and found this info on chrysin:
CHRYSIN is an isoflavone (5,7-dihydroxyflavone) from Passiflora that inhibits aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone and androstenedione to estrogen.
Yeah Anyman, it would make me a little uneasy if Doc only relies on an isoflavone for his anti-E effort. But I know he is a big believer in isoflavones (soy products) as an anti-E and touts them in his book as well. Dr. John, on the other hand (as mentioned by JanSz's experience on Dr. John's board) seems to talk down - if not outright avoid - isoflavones. What gives? I'm confused.

This natural anti-E on Beyond a Century looked like the best formula to me:
ANTI-ESTROGEN FORMULA. A dose of this formula contains 100mg DIM, 500mg chrysin, and 125mg nettle root extract, to help maintain healthy hormone levels** by inhibiting the conversion of testosterone or androstenedione to estradiol and estrone, with 5mg Bioperine to enhance absorption. 50 grams, 66 doses. $22.50 Code 521.9
(For comparison, LEF's Breast Health formula only contains 14mg of DIM).
BTW, JanSz, why not just go for this formula instead of DIM only?

Still nothing could take the place of a Arimidex/LiquiDex if that what was truly needed. Anyman's E of 48 up there and going higher so I question what chrysin alone can do.

I agree totally- With my E level going up, I don't think that a weak topical product like Chrysin will do enough. Dr S is a great Dr, but sometimes too incremental. While one may eventually feel better, it should take less than 5 years to get there!

What anti- E products are you taking?

 

[OldGator]

What anti- E products are you taking?

The natural supps I listed and a low dose prescription of Danazol (20 mg) from the doc. However, if I go from HCG to Test and my E goes way up I think I would feel more comfortable with a LiquiDex type product.
Anyone know much about Danazol?

 

[JanSz]

Good Luck JanSz. I will have to look into this also but those supps you just quit using have held my E in check quite nicely.

JanSz, in any event, you are also using Liquidex, correct? So that would be leading the way in your anti-E protocol anyway. I am concerned if Anyman's (and my) doc doesn't use any prescription anti-E's and only relies on chrysin - a weak anti-E in several OTC supplements. Don't you agree?

Ok, my E2 considerations

I stopped

DualAction 2pills/day ----------(DIM)
BreastFormula 2pills/day--------(DIM)
MiraForte 4pills/day ---------(Chrysin)

Replaced all three above with
DIM-Powder 600mg/day

I still use 0.33cc/EOD Liquidex
---------------------------------
Tommorow is my (T + Liquidex + B12) day
I will increase to 0.38cc Liquidex

--------------------------------------------------
At first I assumed that my E2 went down (600mg DIM now, previously about 2*14+14=42mg

may be it went up instead, but my right breast is not itchy, so it must be marginal change.

all this is speculation, I have to go back to consistent regime, wait 4 -6 weeks, get tested.
-------------------------------------------------
One of my projects is to reduce the huge amount of pills that I am taking daily. So far, due to E2 I replaced 6 pills with two scoops of powder.
-------------------------------------------------

 

[anyman]

UPDATE- Recent 24 hr Rhein test seems to confirm "flushing" of T. Might explain a lot

As some here may recall, I have had difficulty in getting my T levels up far enough. For awhile I was up to 180mg of T cyp/week- and could barely get to 500 or so. My Dr. had me take "cobalt", which is believed to help reset the metabolism of T and E, etc.

Just a few days into starting cobalt, I had a 24 Rhein lab urine test to see where the hell it was all going and what we up. Would serve as a baseline to compare to post cobalt results.

I don't pretend to understand these readings, but perhaps others do and can comment or learn form them. All units are in "ug/24hours". Here we go:

Estrone (E1) 13 HIGH Ref 3-12
Estradiol (E2) 7.8 HIGH 0-7.0
Estriol (E3) 17 HIGH 1-16
Total Estrogens 38 HIGH 4-22
Testosterone 34 LOW 45-85
DHT 7.9 -- 0-13
Androstaniol 361 -- 48-578
Androstenedione 42 -- 0-50
DHEA 995 -- 5-1476
Androstenetriol (5-AT) 771 HIGH 42-710
Androsterone (AN) 10271 HIGH 798-4705
11b-OH (Androsterone) 1361 -- 461-1692
Etiocholanolone (ET) 6495 HIGH 689-3252
11b-OH Etio. (OHET) 667 -- 134-1186

Others like Pregnanediol, 5-Pregnenetriol, Cortisone, THE, THB, 5a-THB, THA, Cortisol, THF and 5a-THF were also measured. Only one was abnormal, that being 5a-THB which was also HIGH at 868 on a 135-588 scale.

The bottom line as my limited understanding allows is that my drain seems to have been bigger than my incoming faucet. The more T I took in the more it went out. Let's hope cobalt can help this. So far so good. Initial blood draws show a noticeable improvement.

I invite any comments, suggestions and input in the hopes of both helping myself and others who can't get relief no matter how much T they take. I do feel a bit better as of late, so my fingers are crossed.

 

[anyman]

Brief update: Dr suggests "Iodoral", an iodine supplement, to combat higher estrogen

After 2-3 weeks it hasn't done a damn thing. Still feeling too often tired and mentally off. I'll keep trying it till the next blood work on 4/2. Thereafter I'll consult with Dr Shippen and see what he suggests. I am thinking a REAL anti aromatizing agent is called for. Don't know what he'll say, but it worth a shot.

At least T levels have been going up. That's a nice change.

 

[engival]

is doctor shippen the one who ordered the 24hr Rhein test?

 

[anyman]

Yes, Dr S ordered the test--but at my prodding

is doctor shippen the one who ordered the 24hr Rhein test?

I kept asking where all the T I was taking was going. I read a post somewhere else that mentioned this test as a way to see where everything was going and brought it up with him.

Seems that there are very high levels of E. What puzzles me is why he is not taking more direct action such as an anti-Estrogen medication, such as Arimidex. He wants to start with Iodoral.

While I have more than a few doubts, he knows more than I do, so I'll keep going. Depending on where this goes, I may eventually consider a consult/second opinion at some time.

 

[JanSz]

I kept asking where all the T I was taking was going. I read a post somewhere else that mentioned this test as a way to see where everything was going and brought it up with him.

Seems that there are very high levels of E. What puzzles me is why he is not taking more direct action such as an anti-Estrogen medication, such as Arimidex. He wants to start with Iodoral.

While I have more than a few doubts, he knows more than I do, so I'll keep going. Depending on where this goes, I may eventually consider a consult/second opinion at some time.

About E2:
What is your lattest E2 in the blood.
Describe who draw the blood, lab or doctor's office.
How many hours since last T shot.
What laboratory, exact name of the test.
=============================
=============================
How to compare urine tests of two people,
one passing 1galon/24hr
another passing 2 galons/24hr or possibly more?

On my ONE test from Genova they have
Urine Representativeness Index.
It is a some kind of a functin to figure it out they analyze first:

Creatinine
Glutamine/Glutamate ratio
Ammonia
Arginine/Ornitine ratio

In my report the above four numbers are all over the place, that is some are within range and some are not.
The final Index came in the middle of ok zone. (But I would like it even more (I think) if all four were in ok zone.

In your report, do you have any indication of what do Rhein Labs think of accuracy of the test that they did for you?

 

[anyman]

Here are the few details i have on my estrogen levels and determination thereof:

In order:

About E2:
What is your lattest E2 in the blood?.
Describe who draw the blood, lab or doctor's office.
How many hours since last T shot.
What laboratory, exact name of the test.

Most recent blood draw at Quest labs showed Estradiol at 48, up from my usual reading of under 32.
Blood drawn at about 9am on a Wednesday approximately 36 hours after T shot and 12 hours after hcg. I usually do T on Sun and Thurs nights, with hcg on Tues and Fri. This was done at the express instructions of Dr. Shippen.

=============================
=============================
How to compare urine tests of two people,
one passing 1galon/24hr
another passing 2 galons/24hr or possibly more?

The urine lab results are a function of both the findings AND quantity of urine and allows for varying amounts as such is expressly accounted for. Drs Shippen and Crisler are both very adamant that Rhein is their preferred resource.

On my ONE test from Genova they have
Urine Representativeness Index.
It is a some kind of a functin to figure it out they analyze first:

Creatinine
Glutamine/Glutamate ratio
Ammonia
Arginine/Ornitine ratio

In my report the above four numbers are all over the place, that is some are within range and some are not.
The final Index came in the middle of ok zone. (But I would like it even more (I think) if all four were in ok zone.

Don't know much about this at all. As you know, Genova is not available in my state. Too bad, as I hope they'll get licensed.

In your report, do you have any indication of what do Rhein Labs think of accuracy of the test that they did for you?

Not in the report itself, but they supposely have independent verification of accuracy--something Genova does not mention or list. Also, and as I note above Drs Crisler and Shippen place much faith in them.

I am increasingly convinced that higher E levels are a factor as I have noted them to be an issue for me. Although I am better, the near constant fatigue is a real PITA. Still, I force myself to go to the gym 4-5x/week in addition to my career and kids. I consistently feel pretty good as the clock rolls into the evening and later. By 10pm I feel pretty good and lose the fatigue and mentally "down" feelings.

Can't help but get increasingly frustrated here. Dr S is a pioneer and highly regarded for a reason. I wish I understood his great reluctance to use aromatase inhibitors like arimidex. I imagine a trip to Lansing this spring or summer might be a possibilty.....

 

[The Matrix]

In order:



I am increasingly convinced that higher E levels are a factor as I have noted them to be an issue for me. Although I am better, the near constant fatigue is a real PITA. Still, I force myself to go to the gym 4-5x/week in addition to my career and kids. I consistently feel pretty good as the clock rolls into the evening and later. By 10pm I feel pretty good and lose the fatigue and mentally "down" feelings.

Can't help but get increasingly frustrated here. Dr S is a pioneer and highly regarded for a reason. I wish I understood his great reluctance to use aromatase inhibitors like arimidex. I imagine a trip to Lansing this spring or summer might be a possibilty.....

i got your pm on other board and we may be able to help you get to core problems rather then bandaid methods. I have a probably solution where it lies and no dr has even investigated yet, but we have the ability to provided you have good insurance. The borage of testing is going to take some deep probing to rule out alot of things. There may be one issue that crossed my mind and may be at core source of problem and we can rule that out with most accurate testing available to medical community

 

[JanSz]

Most recent blood draw at Quest labs showed Estradiol at 48, up from my usual reading of under 32.
..

I am assuming that you are doing the test that dr John likes.
On that test you should have E2 less than 29.

We discuss what that (<29) mean,
but have firm understanding that you should not have anything above 29.
.
.
Among other things that probably stresses your adrenals that appear to be also rather weak.

.
.

 

[anyman]

UPDATE: Interesting results with "Cobalt". Some good, others less so.

As some here may recall, I have proven resistant to TRT and eventually discovered that I appear to be a "hypermetabolizer", wherein I quite literally "piss out" most of the T I take in. Even higher doses such as 200mg/week of T cyp plus hcg 2x/week failed to get me much past 400 or so. And, I felt like I was only at 400.... Not good.

Dr. Shippen suggested I try a few drops of "cobalt" 2x/day as a way to reset my body's metabolism and allow the T to not get excreted so fast. Well, after a good 6 weeks or so I have mixed results, although all are arguably a step in the right direction.

Blood drawn on Wed, 4/2 showed T of 698--a new high for me of by a full 100 points. On the down side, Estradiol (E2) shot up to 64 (ouch...) It had previously been under 32, rose to 48 and now hit 64. That explains the resurgence in feeling tired and irritable. During this time I have been on 160mg of T cyp divided into 2 80mg doses/week and 2 hcg doses of about 325iu/week.

On a hunch, I tried a little test and tried DIM 2x/day for a few days and noticed an improvement.

Now, all I gotta do is see if Dr S will give me an AI so I can finally see the benefits of this long and torturous odyssey.

 

[The Matrix]

betcha your t will be into the 1200 's next test because you are not injecting into your fat where it was just linkering there and aromatizing.

 

[jinxie]

As some here may recall, I have proven resistant to TRT and eventually discovered that I appear to be a "hypermetabolizer", wherein I quite literally "piss out" most of the T I take in. Even higher doses such as 200mg/week of T cyp plus hcg 2x/week failed to get me much past 400 or so. And, I felt like I was only at 400.... Not good.

Dr. Shippen suggested I try a few drops of "cobalt" 2x/day as a way to reset my body's metabolism and allow the T to not get excreted so fast. Well, after a good 6 weeks or so I have mixed results, although all are arguably a step in the right direction.

Blood drawn on Wed, 4/2 showed T of 698--a new high for me of by a full 100 points. On the down side, Estradiol (E2) shot up to 64 (ouch...) It had previously been under 32, rose to 48 and now hit 64. That explains the resurgence in feeling tired and irritable. During this time I have been on 160mg of T cyp divided into 2 80mg doses/week and 2 hcg doses of about 325iu/week.

On a hunch, I tried a little test and tried DIM 2x/day for a few days and noticed an improvement.

Now, all I gotta do is see if Dr S will give me an AI so I can finally see the benefits of this long and torturous odyssey.

Anyman, you mean 2 times 325 IUs I assume, right?

As for an AI, there is liquidex. I took ADEX for 2 weeks at .25 mgs EOD, and it took me from 82 back to 20, where I was pre TRT. I felt awful at 82.

Hang in there, bro. It will come.

 

[anyman]

Yes, hcg is @ 325iu twice per week.

Anyman, you mean 2 times 325 IUs I assume, right?

As for an AI, there is liquidex. I took ADEX for 2 weeks at .25 mgs EOD, and it took me from 82 back to 20, where I was pre TRT. I felt awful at 82.

Hang in there, bro. It will come.

I am considering liquidex, but need to see what Dr Shippen says. He is oddly resistant to AIs for some reason, often preferring to lower the T dose first. I'd rather go the other way and get E down and THEN lower doses. Getting tired of feeling, well, tired.

Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.

 

[The Matrix]

I am considering liquidex, but need to see what Dr Shippen says. He is oddly resistant to AIs for some reason, often preferring to lower the T dose first. I'd rather go the other way and get E down and THEN lower doses. Getting tired of feeling, well, tired.

Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.

When dealing with an issue as complex as yours one need to exmaine other avenues which I have previously mentioned to you before. Alot of your issues are more liver based then anything. You also need to be under a physcian care and not self expermenting with things.

 

[jinxie]

I am considering liquidex, but need to see what Dr Shippen says. He is oddly resistant to AIs for some reason, often preferring to lower the T dose first. I'd rather go the other way and get E down and THEN lower doses. Getting tired of feeling, well, tired.

Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.

No worries.

You are taking 325 IUs of hCG, twice weekly, right?

 

[anyman]

Looks like Arimidex is finally in the forecast. Wonder if it'll make a difference...

Recent blood work has shown some improvements and need for more work. As I note above, T went to 698-- A new record for me by a full 100 points. To bad the estrogen also shot up as well to 64

But, after speaking with Dr S' office today he agreed to start me on a compounded version of arimidex. I am hoping for the best......

 

[The Matrix]

Recent blood work has shown some improvements and need for more work. As I note above, T went to 698-- A new record for me by a full 100 points. To bad the estrogen also shot up as well to 64

But, after speaking with Dr S' office today he agreed to start me on a compounded version of arimidex. I am hoping for the best......

Lowering the e2 will increase total testoerone to 900 range. One clinet I had was 550 and e2 62 and put him on .25 EOD and total test went to 1000 and e2 to 32. My suggestion may be to give myomin 6 pills a day a try for 4 weeks then retest while swithcing to IM. Should help alot

 

[anyman]

UPDATE: Things are looking a bit better, oddly enough.

To refresh, I am taking 160mg (2x 80mg) per week, with an arimidex sublingual pill prescribed by Dr S. Still doing 3 drops of "Cobalt" 2x/day.

T was 833- the highest by far I've ever seen. Estradiol (E2) dropped from the 60s to 52, which is still high, but better. Explains why I've had a bit more energy. I suspect E needs to drop even more and will be working towards this.

This is the best progress I've seen since I started keeping track. Energy is still so-so on some days, but on the whole the fatigue and brain fog are noticeably improved. Keeping my fingers crossed..... Curious to see what the next "tweak" is. I'll find out next week.

 

[JanSz]

To refresh, I am taking 160mg (2x 80mg) per week, with an arimidex sublingual pill prescribed by Dr S. Still doing 3 drops of "Cobalt" 2x/day.

T was 833- the highest by far I've ever seen. Estradiol (E2) dropped from the 60s to 52, which is still high, but better. Explains why I've had a bit more energy. I suspect E needs to drop even more and will be working towards this.

This is the best progress I've seen since I started keeping track. Energy is still so-so on some days, but on the whole the fatigue and brain fog are noticeably improved. Keeping my fingers crossed..... Curious to see what the next "tweak" is. I'll find out next week.

How often are you taking Arimidex?
What is the total weekly dose, mg/week.


.

 

[anyman]

Arimidex dose is an odd one

How often are you taking Arimidex?
What is the total weekly dose, mg/week.


.

I have .01mg "minitroche" custom mixed as a sublingual dose. It is taken with the T shot, which is presently 2x/week.

I would have preferred a "normal" dose and "normal" pill, but this is what Dr Shippen does.