Gr-Easy EJL's fish oil megadosing ala Charles Poliquin thread

[ZoMbSta]

This says the Upper Tolerable Limit is 10,00 IU

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Thanks! 10,000 i.u? That's just the amount from my daily multi. Doesn't leave any room for cod liver oil at all?

 

[bioman]

I do two tablespoons of cod liver oil per day with no issues. 10,000 ius of A is an FDA rec based on a 10-fold redundant safety margin.

Just don't drink a bottle per day.

 

[alan aragon]

Wow, this is a long thread.

I take fish oil only because I rarely end up eating fish. Love fish, rarely eat it = a little fishy oil from Costco.

The stuff is not magic, and Poliquin's rec's are more based in fairytales than science.

 

[bioman]

True that. I'd like to know how they "know" that "cavemen" got 300 grams of EPA per week. lol

Bit of a stretch.

I take the large doses of fish oil simply because it makes me feel better mentally. Everything else is secondary.

 

[ZoMbSta]

Wow, this is a long thread.

I take fish oil only because I rarely end up eating fish. Love fish, rarely eat it = a little fishy oil from Costco.

The stuff is not magic, and Poliquin's rec's are more based in fairytales than science.

you mean that fish oil doesn't have as amazing an effect as the results shown by poliquin?

 

[turbopugsleyl]

Well this about this....They ate alot of fish...first of all....secondly what charles talked about was they may come upon a carcass and typically might eat the brain first of all which is very very rich in Omega 3 and then also suck the marrow out of the bones which is high as well...not to mention the usual omega content we see in free range animals is pretty good...

 

[turbopugsleyl]

Christian Thibadeau also has talked about the effects of body comp change that megadosing has...he has said it makes a HUGE difference much more than any other supplement in his arsenal has.....

 

[datBtrue]

Christian Thibadeau also has talked about the effects of body comp change that megadosing has...he has said it makes a HUGE difference much more than any other supplement in his arsenal has.....

Again he megadosed something for sure to make that transformation...he might have also taken a lot of fish oil w/ his heavy dose of injectable...

 

[datBtrue]

you mean that fish oil doesn't have as amazing an effect as the results shown by poliquin?

Alan would know...that is his area of expertise...Poliquin usually picks a different supplement every six months to fall in love w/ and mega-dose. At one time Ginko was his favorite megadose sup...

 

[EasyEJL]

thats all well and good to say, but I can also show where professional dieticians have with the aid of scientific evidence recommended for then against then for then against eating whole eggs. There was a point where dieticians believed that dietary cholesterol raised serum cholesterol, which we now know is false.

So I take any of what anyone says with a grain of salt.

I can say for a fact that I like the way I feel and get better results in the gym when I am taking 10g + of fish oil a day more than when I don't, and thats about all that is really important to me.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I can also show where professional dieticians have with the aid of scientific evidence recommended for then against then for then against eating whole eggs. There was a point where dieticians believed that dietary cholesterol raised serum cholesterol, which we now know is false.

Link to study? Please Easy!

 

[EasyEJL]

heres a negative one

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and heres a positive one

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there are tons of conflicting studies. Just goes to show its really hard to tell

 

[turbopugsleyl]

He actually said it as an afterfact that he should have megadosed when he did the transformation so that it would have progressed alot faster......and also I keep hearing this rumor that he injected with steroids....maybe he did...but I am an avid reader of T-mag and unless you could supply maybe the link where it said it...I would stop spreading a rumor that has been spoken on here before just because someone else said it...

I do remember something about him using Mag-10 on his transformation which t-mag readers could say unanimously that got them better results than most injectables out there.....but that is a far cry from saying he used illegal steroids....If I had access to mag-10 I wouldn't need anything illegal....people got sick results on there...10 lbs in the first two weeks and 20+ in a 4-6 week cycle...dry gains..

 

[EasyEJL]

Mind you, i'm not trying to say dietary science is nonsense but that there are many things we don't know for sure. In the words of K

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

From Men In Black

 

[datBtrue]

....and also I keep hearing this rumor that he injected with steroids....maybe he did...but I am an avid reader of T-mag and unless you could supply maybe the link where it said it...I would stop spreading a rumor that has been spoken on here before just because someone else said it...

I'm not spreading a rumor...what you think I am some simple meme that reads what someone posts and then repeats it as if it were fact...

I am making the statement that CT of course used steroids...in my opinion...in my very well informed opinion...

...the statement starts w/ me. Are you insisting that I retract it because it abuses your illusions?

 

[datBtrue]

thats all well and good to say, but I can also show where professional dieticians have with the aid of scientific evidence recommended for then against then for then against eating whole eggs. There was a point where dieticians believed that dietary cholesterol raised serum cholesterol, which we now know is false.

So I take any of what anyone says with a grain of salt.

I can say for a fact that I like the way I feel and get better results in the gym when I am taking 10g + of fish oil a day more than when I don't, and thats about all that is really important to me.

Easy Easy! I always wanted to say that. I like 10g of fish oil a day as well...I don't consider that as mega-dosing.

But 30grams a day, 50grams a day? CP does tend to go overboard and make grandiose statements at times.

I didn't mean to offend you bro...I apologize for sounding like a d1ck again.

 

[EasyEJL]

nah, you didn't. its just so hard to tell with any of this. Even the scientific studies are rarely representative of a bodybuilding lifestyle. they are usually around obese women, or the elderly or aids patients or something like that.

I do like dosing at 30g for the first couple weeks, but then dropping down to 10g afterwards seems to keep the same effects.

 

[turbopugsleyl]

Realise man...Christian is not massivley huge by any stretch...so what would incline you to say he used injectables....secondly also realise when you look at his before and after pics....he had been training and a strength coach for years at that point and had a layer of fat over it all..I can understand this cause although when I was in college based upon my calipers at 5'11 I would have been 225 at 8-10% BF but nonetheless you could not tell it by looking at me cause I had 50 pounds of extra fat covering it over and would not have know I was that muscular aside from that I looked solid....

 

[E-Swift25]

Remember, if you're just taking consuming any old fish oil, you're probably not reaping the full benefits. I see guys taking 1-gram caps and think that they are getting enough. Most caps only contain 300mg of EPA and DHA. The other 700mg of oil may be beneficial, but it does not have the benefits of EPA/DHA. Taking 30 of these 1 gram caps only gives 9 grams a day of these oils specifically, not 30 grams.

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, I'm shooting at targets of over 2g of DHA. i've started lately (until I started this xfactor cycle) doing about half from fish oils, and half from high DHA caps

 

[datBtrue]

Realise man...Christian is not massivley huge by any stretch...so what would incline you to say he used injectables....secondly also realise when you look at his before and after pics....he had been training and a strength coach for years at that point and had a layer of fat over it all..I can understand this cause although when I was in college based upon my calipers at 5'11 I would have been 225 at 8-10% BF but nonetheless you could not tell it by looking at me cause I had 50 pounds of extra fat covering it over and would not have know I was that muscular aside from that I looked solid....

I understand that aspect. He wouldn't need a steroid to gain more mass if it was there under all that fat.

Have you ever dieted from the bodyfat level CT was at down to the bodyfat level he ended up at? If you have then you probably realize that it takes a lot of time...and then you have to deal with stubborn fat deposits... Fifty pounds of fat is a lot of fat. The chances are very high that you will lose a lot of muscle if you do it too quickly...

14 weeks? Use of steroids will make a difference because they will help the rapid dieter hold his muscle while losing fat and even then there are limits...there is no shame in using steroids to help him achieve this...take a look at how bodybuilders lose fat to get ready for a contest...and they have a lot less to lose over about the same timeframe...

I think you and I got off on the wrong foot because in our society it seems that everybody wants to tear someone else down and belittle their accomplishments...and so in this regard you probably read posts from people that sneered at CT's amazing transformation and tried to diminish his efforts by saying he "HAD to be on STARE ROIDS". My post sounds the same way "blah blah...he was megadosing something..." I wasn't sneering though...I just hate mendacity...

It is damn difficult to achieve what CT did in such a short time period even w/ steroids...h3ll even with the virgin use of DNP...and so to pertuate the thought that he did it by mega-dosing fish oil just rubs me the wrong way and made me respond the way I did...

I enjoy reading T-nation...I enjoy Charles Poliquin as well...but too often I see guys over there jumping on the latest great thing w/o putting much thought into it...CP's "Super-Accumulation Program - Overtrain, Rest, and Grow!" is just an example of something that probably isn't the greatest of ideas. Notice how he uses the "!" in the title and then "challenges" people by saying you have to have the "balls" to do this program...

 

[turbopugsleyl]

as I had stated...I believe he did use Mag-10 when cutting....so that would have helped...also just to let you know the compound that biotest has in Hot rox extreme allowed me to drop steadily 1-2lbs a week in a moderatley restrictive diet calories wise...and my muscle weight did not go down but 3/4 of a pound of muscle for 20 pounds of fat....I actually started gaining 1/4 pound here and there with it per week near the end...its a fantastic cutting product!

 

[alan aragon]

Alan would know...that is his area of expertise...Poliquin usually picks a different supplement every six months to fall in love w/ and mega-dose. At one time Ginko was his favorite megadose sup...

Yup, true.

Poliquin also sells some expensive fish oil from his site, so it's no small wonder he's gonna have a hard-on about it. Bottom line is that there's no objective evidence that what he says is true. By objective, I mean PLACEBO CONTROLLED - as opposed to, "hey check this out, it's awesome", and then the mind works its magic on the body via the power of suggestion.

Man, I hate to be a party pooper.

 

[EasyEJL]

Hmm is there placebo controlled proof it doesnt work? if not then the best you can really say is you don't know, and if there is i'd like to see a link to it.

 

[bioman]

"Hmm is there placebo controlled proof it doesnt work"

Bwahaha. It's science's job to be skeptical not to give the compound the benefit of the doubt. Though it's true that Alan or anyone else doesn't "know" 100% whether this is true or not, you have to admit that even anecdotally, the results of using these doses of fish oil are not as amazing and D-Bol-esque as Mr. Poliquin suggests in his article.

With your own results, can you be totally certain that you would not have achieved them without the aid of 30g's of fish oil per day? You really can't.

I think Alan makes a strong point about the power of suggestion..especially when that suggestion comes from a figurehead like Poliquin.

That's not to dis on fish oil..I love it, but this needs to be kept in some sort of objective light or the kids will start injecting it into their arses soon and then Congress will ban it. lol

 

[EasyEJL]

I know what you mean, but at the same time particuarly in the dietary realm I think there has been more flawed science and recommendation than in any other sort of science. Look at the level of obesity today and level of testosterone in adult males continually deteriorating. 40 years ago obesity was way lower and testosterone was higher. So I take what most scientific dieticians say with a grain of salt.

 

[EasyEJL]

to add, the fact that there isn't published in a journal scientific evidence does not mean there isn't scientific evidence. Poliquin has been doing this for quite a while, and keeps a lot of data, including weekly blood tests for athletes he is training.

 

[datBtrue]

to add, the fact that there isn't published in a journal scientific evidence does not mean there isn't scientific evidence.

True or you could put it very simply as...

Absence of knowledge is not knowledge of absence.

 

[EasyEJL]

Thats more poetic than I can manage right now with having gotten that bug going around. dangit I feel like crap, my head is all fuzzy and i'm going to miss a few workouts too

 

[turbopugsleyl]

Response from Christian Thibs:
Hey Christian,

I have a question for ya....My interest was piqued tremendously when I read an article by Poliquin, in which he talks about a First round NFL draft pick who has stalled in his growth and Charles upped his fish oil intake to 45 grams per day and the guy gained 29 lbs of LBM in a month! I was like holy cow!


After scouring over T-Nation I see that you are also a big advocate of it...and you said that Mega dosing fish oil can cause dramatic changes in body composition....I have a question about it...what are some hard numbers you have seen in you or your clients when they added 30-45g per day of fish oil to their diet? What types of body comp changes in fat loss or muscle gain have you or your client experienced when making this change to mega dosing fish oil?

Also what other factors like training and diet and other supps were present that affected these results?

I am thoroughly intrigued by what I have read about this topic....


Thanks for your help!
Chris





Christian:
Understand one thing, we (coaches) often use our most amazing client stories to make a point. The goal is NOT to sell you something, but to get the message across.

For example if I say that a pro athlete gained 29lbs in a month while mega-dosing on fish oil you WILL pay more attention to the important message (mega-dosing fish oil is good for muscle growth, fat loss and health) then if I say that a client gained 5lbs on that strategy.

The truth is that:

1. Elite athletes (especially football players who are at the top of the genetic food chain) are more likely to gain muscle mass quickly than the average Joe, with or without supplements.

2. Do not forget about the ''regained muscle'' factor. An athlete WILL lose some muscle mass during the season. For one thing he can't train (with weights) as much (less energy, less time, higher risk of injury), then the energy expenditure from their sports practice is super high. Two conditions not conducive to maintaining muscle mass.

For example I often have pro hockey players 15lbs of muscle or more during a season. Obviously hockey has 82 games per season and they basically live on planes and in hotels, but football players are also likely to lose a lot of size.

Now, you will regain the muscle you already had much faster than it will take you to gain new muscle. I once had a hockey player lose 10lbs in the first 3/4 of his season, then he got injured and lost another 10lbs because he could not use his upper body. When he got back to all-out training he gained 25lbs in 4 weeks. If I only said that he gained 25lbs in 4 weeks it would sound amazing... but the fact is that 20 of those pounds were regained muscle.

The take home message is that ''real life'' examples are used to get a point across... to get your attention.

Mega dosing fish oil IS a great short term strategy. And it WILL lead to muscle growth and fat loss (mainly through an increase in insulin sensitivity) but I can guarantee you that your gains will not be anywhere near 29lbs in 4 weeks.

 

[alan aragon]

Hmm is there placebo controlled proof it doesnt work? if not then the best you can really say is you don't know, and if there is i'd like to see a link to it.

Like Bioman mentioned, the burden of proof is not on the scientist, but rather, it's on the person making the claim. If fish oil megadosing causes these magical results (take fat loss for example), then we'd see it happen under placebo-controlled conditions. Anyone can get a hold of a supp that they truly believe deep down will work miracles, and guess what? The compliance, consistency, dedication, & flat-out work ethic is kicked up several notches, and next thing you know.... AMAZING RESULTS. How much did the supp actually contribute? Very little (if anything at all) on its own, but a whole hell of a lot in terms of setting off the placebo cascade. As it stands in the scientific literature, fish oil's effect on fat loss has been either nonexistent, or minor at best.

And by the way, I'm not purposely trying to bust your balls about this, I just enjoy airing out the facts & giving folks food for thought.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, the placebo effects can definitely be enormous. I posted an article about that, comically a more expensive placebo outperforms a discounted placebo.

I can only say that I like the way I feel better when I am taking 10+g of fish oil a day vs when I am taking less than that. Hard to tell for sure what the real health benefits are.

 

[turbopugsleyl]

If your soo keen on showing us fact then why not post some studies showing that megadosing is nothing else than placebo effect....

Heres some more info...
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Knowledge is servant to experiencing

 

[datBtrue]

Yeah, the placebo effects can definitely be enormous. I posted an article about that, comically a more expensive placebo outperforms a discounted placebo.

I can only say that I like the way I feel better when I am taking 10+g of fish oil a day vs when I am taking less than that. Hard to tell for sure what the real health benefits are.

From 100 Super Supplements for a Longer Life, Frank Murray, McGraw-Hill, 2000, pages 121-123:

A fish oil supplement helps stabilize the volatile moods of those suffering from manic depression, also known as bipolar disorder, according to researchers at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. The study involved 30 patients who were receiving drugs for manic depression. During four months of therapy, 14 were also given daily doses of omega-3 fatty acids containing fish oil concentrate. The rest were the controls. Eleven of the volunteers receiving fish oil improved or maintained their emotional status during the study, compared with 6 of 16 controls.15 Recent studies have shown that depressed patients often have low levels of omega-3 fatty acids, especially DHA. Increasing omega-3 fatty acids in the diet can improve bouts of depression.16

People with depression have lower levels of omega-3s. It is now known that during pregnancy the fetus takes omega-3 from the mother to make brain and nervous tissue, causing some pregnant women to suffer from postpartum depression, according to Lucy Puryear, M.D., of the Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. Those who suffer from this disorder experience sleep difficulties, excessive crying, loss of energy and appetite, and lack of interest in activities. The condition usually begins within the first month after delivery but can occur up to four to six months afterward.17 Omega-3 fatty acids are found in cell membranes throughout the body, Puryear explained. But over the years the American diet has had a decrease in omega-3s. At the same time, omega-6 fatty acids, also found in cell membranes, have increased. "We think this shift is affecting brain chemical receptors and impacting the brain’s levels of serotonin, which is thought to be linked to depression," she continued. "Women with a history of postpartum depression have a 50- to-80 percent chance of getting it again." Puryear has begun a study involving 20 pregnant women with past histories of postpartum depression. They will receive fish oil capsules starting in the 34th week of pregnancy and will continue until four months after delivery. Fish oil capsules do not harm the fetus, and some studies have shown that omega-3s might enhance the baby’s cognitive and visual development.

One study involved six volunteers who were fed a control diet for three weeks. Ten to 12 weeks later, 6 g/day of fish oil replaced the 6 g/day of visible fat in the control diet. The volunteers were observed for another three weeks. Although energy intake was unchanged, body fat mass decreased with the substitution of the fish oil. The researchers concluded that dietary fish oil reduces body fat mass and stimulates lipid oxidation in healthy adults.18

15. Bower, Bruce, "Feeling Better with Fish Oil," Science News 155: 362,June 5, 1999.

16. Peet, M., et al., "Depletion of Omega-3 Fatty Acid Levels in Red Blood Cell Membranes of Depressed Patients," Biological Psychiatry 43: 315–19, 1998.

17. Major, Kathy. "Fish Oil Studied As Method to Prevent Post-Partum Depression," Baylor College of Medicine News, March 26, 1999.

18. Couet, C., et al., "Effect of Dietary Fish Oil on Body Fat Mass and Basal Oxidation in Healthy Adults," International Journal of Obesity 21: 637–43, 1997.​

 

[EasyEJL]

no wonder i feel so depressed when I stop taking fish oil

 

[datBtrue]

no wonder i feel so depressed when I stop taking fish oil

I know someone who is currently on medication for depression... I'm going to see if I can get her to try 10 grams of fish oil a day for a week to see if it helps her mood.

Anyway thanks for starting this thread Easy... I am now in the process of reformulating my diet to get my ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 in balance...I wouldn't have spent the time researching that aspect if you hadn't started this thread. :thumbsup:

 

[alan aragon]

If your soo keen on showing us fact then why not post some studies showing that megadosing is nothing else than placebo effect....

Heres some more info...
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Knowledge is servant to experiencing

Fish Oil as a Fat Loss Supplement?

So far, the resume of fish oil’s health effects is very extensive. But can it add fat loss to the list as well? The buzz in the supplement industry would certainly want consumers to believe so. But as always, the answer can only begin to reveal itself in the research. Human studies examining the effect of fish oil supplementation on body composition are scarce, but that makes it easy to pick them apart.

A decade ago, Couet and colleagues investigated the effect of replacing 6g of visible dietary fat with 6g of fish oil in healthy adults over a 3-week period, done 12 weeks after a 3-week control diet period [12]. Bodyfat mass and respiratory quotient decreased in the fish oil phase. It’s important to note that the flaws in this study’s design are grave enough to almost completely invalidate it. Extremely small sample size (6 subjects total), short trial period (3 weeks), and a complete absence of randomization or treatment balance (opening the distinct possibility for seasonal variation, among other errors) are the main fatal knocks that render this data nearly useless.

In contrast, 2 more recent studies conducted within the past 3 years looking at weight-loss diets supplemented with omega-3’s have not observed any significant effects on body composition beyond what was caused by dietary restriction alone [13,14]. But it’s never that simple, since things may differ according to the population and protocol. In contrast to the previous two trials, Kunesova’s team examined the effects of omega-3 supplementation on severely obese female inpatients undergoing a 3-week very low calorie (525 kcal) in-patient weight reduction treatment [15]. Calories were controlled to accommodate the supplemental omega-3, which was 2.8g/day. Result? The omega-3 supplemented group lost 1.5 kg bodyweight, and 2.2 cm more off the waist than the control group.

How about more relevant populations? As of this writing, there are only three trials in existence examining the effect of omega-3 supplementation combined with a structured aerobic exercise program on body composition. Let’s dig in. In 1989, Warner and colleagues looked at the effect of walking or jogging 3 days/week for 45–50 minutes at 75-80% maximal heart rate in hyperlipidemic subjects randomly assigned to 1 of 4 groups: fish oil + exercise, fish oil alone, corn oil, or control [16]. Body fat was reduced only in the fish oil + exercise group. These data are severely limited by the absence of an exercise-only control group, leaving a huge question mark open regarding the relative contribution of exercise to the bottom line result. A year later, Brilla and Landerholm conducted a well-designed study on healthy, previously sedentary men [17]. This trial did contain an exercise-only control group, and no effect of fish oil on body fat was observed.

In the most recent fish oil + exercise study to date, Hill’s team examined the effect of fish oil supplementation (6g) on overweight hypertensive/hyperlipidemic subjects (24 men and 41 women) over a 12 week period [18]. Exercise was 3 days/week walking at 75% predicted maximal heart rate for 45 minutes. Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA). Predictably, fish oil supplementation improved blood lipids and arterial vasodilation. As for body composition, fish oil by itself didn’t cause any bodyfat reduction from baseline levels, whereas the sunflower oil control gained bodyfat , but to an insignificant degree. However, fish oil + exercise caused a 1.1% greater bodyfat reduction compared to the sunflower oil + exercise control (1.2% reduction versus a 0.1% reduction in the sunflower oil group). If you re-read those body composition results, they’re nothing to get too excited over, especially considering the small amount of fat lost in the 12 week duration.

Collectively, the research indicates that fish oil's fat loss effect is minor to nonexistent.

12) Couet C, et al. Effect of dietary fish oil on body fat mass and basal fat oxidation in healthy adults. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1997 Aug;21(8):637-43.
13) Fontani G, Corradeschi F, Felici A, et al. Blood profiles, body fat and mood state in healthy subjects on different diets supplemented with omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids. Eur J Clin Invest 2005;35:499–507.
14) Krebs JD, et al. Additive benefits of long-chain n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and weight-loss in the management of cardiovascular disease risk in overweight hyperinsulinaemic women. Int J Obes (Lond). 2006 Oct;30(10):1535-44.
15) Kunesova , et al. The influence of n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and very low calorie diet during a short-term weight reducing regimen on weight loss and serum fatty acid composition in severely obese women. Physiol Res. 2006;55(1):63-72
16) Warner JG, et al. Combined effects of aerobic exercise and omega-3 fatty acids in hyperlipidemic persons. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1989;21:498–505.
17) Brilla LR, Landerholm TE. Effect of fish oil supplementation and exercise on serum lipids and aerobic fitness. J Sports Med Phys Fitness 1990;30:173–80.
18) Hill AM, et al. Combining fish-oil supplements with regular aerobic exercise improves body composition and cardiovascular disease risk factors.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 May;85(5):1267-74.

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[alan aragon]

Fish oil is overhyped for treating depression. It has some potential, but again, it's far from a slam dunk. Check this out, then read the full review in the link. And, I bet I can tell you who's funding most of the positive-effect studies on fish oil.

Fish Oils for Depression?

"Recent meta-analyses have looked at the effect of fish oils (omega-3 fatty acids) on depression. Most studies, all of which are relatively small, looked at the effect in patients with unipolar or bipolar depression who were already taking antidepressants or mood stabilizers. Different studies looked at the effect of EPA, DHA or their combination, and the dosages varied from 1 to 9.6 g daily. Although the meta-analyses indicated a significant antidepressant effect, different studies gave markedly discrepant results. No factors, such as dosage or the use of EPA or DHA, could be identified to account for the discrepancies. There is also the possibility of a publication bias."

"In summary there is not sufficient evidence to suggest the use of fish oils for the treatment of depression and no evidence for the prevention of depression. Nonetheless, fish oils are good for the heart, have no demonstrated adverse effects when taken in reasonable dosages, and could potentially be beneficial for mood. Although patients should be discouraged from taking fish oils as a substitute for antidepressants or mood stabilizers, if they wish to take fish oils as an adjunct to those treatments, they should be aware of the tentative nature of the evidence for a beneficial effect on mood and inform themselves about possible contaminants."

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[Dwight Schrute]

Hi Alan

 

[E-Swift25]

The is some evidence that fish oil does help with mood. The problem with alot of these studies is that their dosage of EPA is not nearly high enough.

Omega-3 DHA and EPA for cognition, behavior, and mood: clinical findings and structural-functional synergies with cell membrane phospholipids.


The omega-3 fatty acids docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) are orthomolecular, conditionally essential nutrients that enhance quality of life and lower the risk of premature death. They function exclusively via cell membranes, in which they are anchored by phospholipid molecules. DHA is proven essential to pre- and postnatal brain development, whereas EPA seems more influential on behavior and mood. Both DHA and EPA generate neuroprotective metabolites. In double-blind, randomized, controlled trials, DHA and EPA combinations have been shown to benefit attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD), autism, dyspraxia, dyslexia, and aggression. For the affective disorders, meta-analyses confirm benefits in major depressive disorder (MDD) and bipolar disorder, with promising results in schizophrenia and initial benefit for borderline personality disorder. Accelerated cognitive decline and mild cognitive impairment (MCI) correlate with lowered tissue levels of DHA/EPA, and supplementation has improved cognitive function. Huntington disease has responded to EPA. Omega-3 phospholipid supplements that combine DHA/EPA and phospholipids into the same molecule have shown marked promise in early clinical trials. Phosphatidylserine with DHA/EPA attached (Omega-3 PS) has been shown to alleviate AD/HD symptoms. Krill omega-3 phospholipids, containing mostly phosphatidylcholine (PC) with DHA/EPA attached, markedly outperformed conventional fish oil DHA/EPA triglycerides in double-blind trials for premenstrual syndrome/dysmenorrhea and for normalizing blood lipid profiles. Krill omega-3 phospholipids demonstrated anti-inflammatory activity, lowering C-reactive protein (CRP) levels in a double-blind trial. Utilizing DHA and EPA together with phospholipids and membrane antioxidants to achieve a triple cell membrane synergy may further diversify their currently wide range of clinical applications.

 

[truckdaddy]

love fish oil....I buy the cheap stuff at Wal mart as of late....i take 15-20 caps ed.

 

[EasyEJL]

In the most recent fish oil + exercise study to date, Hill’s team examined the effect of fish oil supplementation (6g) on overweight hypertensive/hyperlipidemic subjects (24 men and 41 women) over a 12 week period [18]. Exercise was 3 days/week walking at 75% predicted maximal heart rate for 45 minutes. Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA). Predictably, fish oil supplementation improved blood lipids and arterial vasodilation. As for body composition, fish oil by itself didn’t cause any bodyfat reduction from baseline levels, whereas the sunflower oil control gained bodyfat , but to an insignificant degree. However, fish oil + exercise caused a 1.1% greater bodyfat reduction compared to the sunflower oil + exercise control (1.2% reduction versus a 0.1% reduction in the sunflower oil group). If you re-read those body composition results, they’re nothing to get too excited over, especially considering the small amount of fat lost in the 12 week duration.

Collectively, the research indicates that fish oil's fat loss effect is minor to nonexistent.

At 6g a day. So there was significant loss differecne between fishoil + exercise vs sunflower oil + exercise, and in the groups that didn't exercise bodyfat didn't change for fish oil group, but bodyfat went up (amount not specified in the summary) on the "placebo" ones taking sunflower oil. To me that is evidence that fish oil does have some effect on fat loss.


Interstingly, regardless of what that article you posted states, the abstract for the Hill study makes a rather different statement:

Results: FO supplementation lowered triacylglycerols, increased HDL cholesterol, and improved endothelium-dependent arterial vasodilation (P < 0.05). Exercise improved arterial compliance (P < 0.05). Both fish oil and exercise independently reduced body fat (P < 0.05).

Conclusions: FO supplements and regular exercise both reduce body fat and improve cardiovascular and metabolic health. Increasing intake of n–3 FAs could be a useful adjunct to exercise programs aimed at improving body composition and decreasing cardiovascular disease risk.

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I don't feel like paying for full access, but it would be interesting to see the details, given the discrepancy in the studies own findings and the article that referenced it. Note too it was 6g of tuna based oil, so not sure what its makeup was as far as epa/dha either. I don't see tuna oil very frequently for sale.

Interesting that you used a study that does support that it is effective, to write an article to say how it wasn't. Could you explain that please? It seems to me a bias on your behalf, to purposefully misstate the findings published in a peer reviewed journal.

 

[EasyEJL]

Here is a link to Allison Hill's thesis including this information, submitted for her doctorate, which tells a very different story, specifically finding that fish oil does directly by itself at 6g a day reduce body fat levels.

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this particular graph from within it tells a bit of it right there. Yes the fish oil with no exercise group appears to have lost no fat and gained no muscle, the placebo group reciving sunflower oil gained close to a kilogram of fat while losing half a kg of muscle tissue. And including exercise, the fish oil group added more lean mass than any of the other groups, and lost around 1.5kg of bodyfat.

This is with NO change in caloric intake between the groups - the fish oil + exercise group had the same caloric intake as the sunflower + exercise group.

So it seems to me to be a total fallacy to say that at the same caloric intake level loosing more than 3lbs in 12 weeks is insignifcant. Thats the equivalent of around 125 calories a day differential from taking fish oil. If most of the US could do the same, the current obesity epidemic would disappear in a year or two, as 3 lbs in 12 weeks translates to 12 lbs in a year.

 

[alan aragon]

Here is a link to Allison Hill's thesis including this information, submitted for her doctorate, which tells a very different story, specifically finding that fish oil does directly by itself at 6g a day reduce body fat levels.

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this particular graph from within it tells a bit of it right there. Yes the fish oil with no exercise group appears to have lost no fat and gained no muscle, the placebo group reciving sunflower oil gained close to a kilogram of fat while losing half a kg of muscle tissue. And including exercise, the fish oil group added more lean mass than any of the other groups, and lost around 1.5kg of bodyfat.

This is with NO change in caloric intake between the groups - the fish oil + exercise group had the same caloric intake as the sunflower + exercise group.

So it seems to me to be a total fallacy to say that at the same caloric intake level loosing more than 3lbs in 12 weeks is insignifcant. Thats the equivalent of around 125 calories a day differential from taking fish oil. If most of the US could do the same, the current obesity epidemic would disappear in a year or two, as 3 lbs in 12 weeks translates to 12 lbs in a year.

In some trials, fat loss as a result of fish oil has been nonexistent. In this particular trial, it was minor. 3 lbs in 12 weeks is FAR from magical progress, in fact, it's pretty damn poor. Add to this the fact that the participants' dietary intake was self-reported, not lab-provided. Bottom line, a 1.1% fat loss advantage seen over placebo within a 12 week period = nothing exciting at all. Definitely not the magic bullet people make FO out to be. I should also mention that the exercising control group in this study consumed an average of 30g more carbs per day than the fish oil group, and more calories overall.

 

[alan aragon]

Hi Alan

What's up Jerry!

 

[alan aragon]

Interesting that you used a study that does support that it is effective, to write an article to say how it wasn't. Could you explain that please? It seems to me a bias on your behalf, to purposefully misstate the findings published in a peer reviewed journal.

I presented/discussed several trials on fish oil & fat loss. Nowhere in my article did I deny that FO had some effect in some trials. You need to read what I posted more carefully before you accuse me of misstating anything.

 

[turbopugsleyl]

Also NONE of these studies discuss anything even approaching Mega doses of fish oil...in the scheme of things a person takin in 100 grams of fats a day, 6 grams of fish oil is insignificant.....and only 6 % of the total consumption....All we Have is experience soo far to go on...

A thought to think about as well...How accurate would it be to say that Epistane/Havoc has been deemed an ineffective muscle building androgen because in studies the people who consumed 5 mg of epistane a day only gained 3 lbs in a 12 weeks?

How accurate would it be to make that statement and assumption when the effective dose to get results on Havoc/Epistane is 30-50mg/day not 5 mg?

It would not be accurate at all....these fish oil studies using 6 grams a day is no different from the example above I just gave....

 

[EasyEJL]

In some trials, fat loss as a result of fish oil has been nonexistent. In this particular trial, it was minor. 3 lbs in 12 weeks is FAR from magical progress, in fact, it's pretty damn poor. Add to this the fact that the participants' dietary intake was self-reported, not lab-provided. Bottom line, a 1.1% fat loss advantage seen over placebo within a 12 week period = nothing exciting at all. Definitely not the magic bullet people make FO out to be. I should also mention that the exercising control group in this study consumed an average of 30g more carbs per day than the fish oil group, and more calories overall.

These people saw a net positive change of more than 2% in body composition vs the placebo group. These were people who had bodyfat levels in the 40% range, and saw a more than 5% in bodyfat leves by dropping 2%.

If you feel that a 2% body composition % change in 12 weeks with no change in caloric consumption is nothing exciting at all, then you must have all sorts of other magic bullets. Sadly since I can already see that you are happy to use a scientific reference to "prove" results different than the researchers themselves found, I won't be buying your book to see what fairly tales you choose to share.

 

[PumpDogg]

Have any of you ever experienced increased bodyfat gain while adding in supra large doses of omega 3 and 6 oils??

i ask because after reading this thread I bought fish oil and flaxseed oil.. I was up to 5 grams added in with each meal ( 6 meals total).. I rotated between the fish oil and flax oil each meal.. and I have picked up 9 pounds.. Really not much change to my diet either..and this is not muscle pounds either.. :wtf:

i had this happen once before years ago with just using large amounts of fish oil.. I was curious if I was the only one?? I thought maybe it would be different this time..

 

[EasyEJL]

well, 30g extra of fat a day is an extra 270 calories a day. thats 2lbs a month of gain more or less, whether fat or muscle. what sort of time frame did you gain that in?