Havoc & no SERM

jbot

New member
Hey all, i been looking at havoc for a while now, I been reading about others recommeding a SERM, is a SERm necessary if you use a OTC PCT like post cycle support or restore?
 
Most Importantly!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - Invalid Link Removed
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT
Invalid Link Removed

3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: Invalid Link Removed
 
neoborn said:
Most Importantly!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - Invalid Link Removed
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT
Invalid Link Removed

3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Great write-up neo.....reps to you.
 
jbot said:
Hey all, i been looking at havoc for a while now, I been reading about others recommeding a SERM, is a SERm necessary if you use a OTC post cycle therapy like post cycle support or restore?
Click to expand...

You need a serm......end of story. If you don't have a solid PCT in place you will jeapordize everything you've gained with the added horror of the possibility of gyno. Do your research and plan it well. Havoc is an amazing compound and if you do your research and devise a solid cycle you won't be disappointed.
 
So if i run the cycle at 20-30mg for 4 weeks , regardless i still n eed a SERM, If i run the non serm will i get gyno?
 
I am running Epistane along with Cycle Support and POST Cycle Support.

For PCT I will be running POST Cycle Support as well as Cycle Support. Trans-Resveratrol is a SERM as stated by Patrick Arnold. Is it enough for you, I am not sure but I will be running POST Cycle Support for my post cycle therapy.


CROWLER
 
CROWLER said:
I am running Epistane along with Cycle Support and POST Cycle Support.

For PCT I will be running POST Cycle Support as well as Cycle Support. Trans-Resveratrol is a SERM as stated by Patrick Arnold. Is it enough for you, I am not sure but I will be running POST Cycle Support for my post cycle therapy.


CROWLER
Click to expand...


I was wondering where you are with this cycle? How is it going and are you running a log on it anywhere? I was looking to try something similar.

thanks
 
Alot of people run OTC PTC with Havoc nowadays.

If I were to do it, I'd run 6 oxo at 300/300/300/200 stacked with PCT Assist at 4/4/4/4 along side the 6oxo.

Could put something like activate xtreme in PCT Assist's place but due to the inclusion of I3C and Trans-Resveritol, I like PCT Assist a little better for PCT purposes.
 
i ran havoc w/o a SERM the first time through
i took 6oxo at 6 caps a day for 4 weeks.

but now that i have more knowlege it would be much better to run clomid for 3 weeks.

50/50/50
 
with out a doubt you need a SERM. if you cant find any just look up research companies through other chat boards
 
Remember that back in the 50s,60s,70s,80s,90s and the early 21st century, nobody used SERMs for pct either.....

that said a lot of bodybuilders got gyno too :D
 
:approve:
Trauma1 said:
You need a serm......end of story. If you don't have a solid PCT in place you will jeapordize everything you've gained with the added horror of the possibility of gyno. Do your research and plan it well. Havoc is an amazing compound and if you do your research and devise a solid cycle you won't be disappointed.
Click to expand...
x2 better be safe then sorry

run a perfect cycle man its for your own good
 
umm yes you do need some kind of SERM for Havok, what are you talking about. If he does reccomended dose for 4 weeks he IS going to get shut down
 
SadMac said:
umm yes you do need some kind of SERM for Havok, what are you talking about. If he does reccomended dose for 4 weeks he IS going to get shut down
Click to expand...


Umm, No you don't NEED a SERM. Sure it is recommended, but many people including myself, have run an OTC PCT with Havoc. By the way a SERM isn't the only thing that can bring your hormone levels back if you are shut down.

I have also read many posts here and in other forums about many people having adverse effects from SERMs and overall poor PCT results.

I have ran both OTC and a SERM separately for different post cycles and I had the same results. The only difference is I felt way better during the OTC PCT.
 
epistane (havok) 11x as anabolic and 1x as androgenic as methyl test.. so your telling me that you dont need to run a good PCT. Bogus. I am not calling you out and i am super happy that you had good reaction to your OTC PCT but I dnt understand why no mods are chimming in on this.. JBOT go and get yourself a bottle of liquid clomid for $50.00..
 
SadMac said:
epistane (havok) 11x as anabolic and 1x as androgenic as methyl test.. so your telling me that you dont need to run a good PCT. Bogus. I am not calling you out and i am super happy that you had good reaction to your OTC PCT but I dnt understand why no mods are chimming in on this.. JBOT go and get yourself a bottle of liquid clomid for $50.00..
Click to expand...


Wow. Read up bro. There are many threads about this. You don't have to believe me, but have you ever tried epi before? It is very mild compared to a lot of others Ph out there. Honestly, look at threads about methyl test and compare the gaines people make on 10mg of m-t as opposed to gains on 40mg of epi.

A SERM is not needed for every PH and people react differently to different compouds.

I'm speaking from experience. It sounds like you are just regurgitating what you read other people preach.
 
yes and no. all i know is that it dosnt matter how mild it is if it shuts you down you will need a good PCT to recover. How many are actually getting there blood taken before and after pct anyways, looks like not many so how do you know. just because you feel like your labido is going strong it dosnt meen your not shut down. My first cycle years ago was P-Plex and my labido was through the roof before and during PCT. How did i know I was shut down? BLOOD TEST. regurgitating stuff i have read? Noob.. I dont claim to know everything about AAS and prohormones but i know what i know through factual information and real life experiences. But go ahead tell JBOLT he dosnt need a good PCT because i am just blowing smoke. It doens matter how good you fell after cycle and after a "so called" PCT. the only thing that does matter is does you blood test show homeostasis (spelling i know).. I dnt understand you spend a **** load on supporting supps and fake pct products when you can do it right spend 50 bones and recover the correct way. Just cause you can Fukk after pct does not mean you recovered
 
I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but i have a havoc question. I dont want to sound like a retard, i probably am; i recieved my havoc in the mail. I was looking at it and it has a white lid/cap whatever you call it. I was just curious if thats what everyone else recieves.
 
SadMac said:
yes and no. all i know is that it dosnt matter how mild it is if it shuts you down you will need a good PCT to recover. How many are actually getting there blood taken before and after pct anyways, looks like not many so how do you know. just because you feel like your labido is going strong it dosnt meen your not shut down. My first cycle years ago was P-Plex and my labido was through the roof before and during PCT. How did i know I was shut down? BLOOD TEST. regurgitating stuff i have read? Noob.. I dont claim to know everything about AAS and prohormones but i know what i know through factual information and real life experiences. But go ahead tell JBOLT he dosnt need a good PCT because i am just blowing smoke. It doens matter how good you fell after cycle and after a "so called" PCT. the only thing that does matter is does you blood test show homeostasis (spelling i know).. I dnt understand you spend a **** load on supporting supps and fake pct products when you can do it right spend 50 bones and recover the correct way. Just cause you can Fukk after pct does not mean you recovered
Click to expand...



right on-- couldnt have said it better.

two words------->BLOOD WORK.

I had INTENSE libido during my last cycle and bloodwork was all F****D up
 
yeah white lid
 
Drjuicebox06 said:
alright boo99!!! thanks! for answering my question pussball!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...


Sarcastic huh? and name calling too?

thats not how we treat each other on here bro

Learn Teach Lead= AM motto


If I had known your answer, I would have answered it
Even though I just finished a havoc/epi cycle, I have no clue what the cap was 8 weeks ago.

In the future, change ya tone, its not very mature at all bro
 
boo99 said:
Sarcastic huh? and name calling too?

thats not how we treat each other on here bro

Learn Teach Lead= AM motto


If I had known your answer, I would have answered it
Even though I just finished a havoc/epi cycle, I have no clue what the cap was 8 weeks ago.

In the future, change ya tone, its not very mature at all bro
Click to expand...

i got confused by his reply, i thought you'd replied to his question lol.

neg hammer! :hammer:
 
SadMac said:
yes and no. all i know is that it dosnt matter how mild it is if it shuts you down you will need a good PCT to recover. How many are actually getting there blood taken before and after pct anyways, looks like not many so how do you know. just because you feel like your labido is going strong it dosnt meen your not shut down. My first cycle years ago was P-Plex and my labido was through the roof before and during PCT. How did i know I was shut down? BLOOD TEST. regurgitating stuff i have read? Noob.. I dont claim to know everything about AAS and prohormones but i know what i know through factual information and real life experiences. But go ahead tell JBOLT he dosnt need a good PCT because i am just blowing smoke. It doens matter how good you fell after cycle and after a "so called" PCT. the only thing that does matter is does you blood test show homeostasis (spelling i know).. I dnt understand you spend a **** load on supporting supps and fake pct products when you can do it right spend 50 bones and recover the correct way. Just cause you can Fukk after pct does not mean you recovered
Click to expand...

Look bro. I have been on this board reading and learning for over a year. So maybe pay a little more attention and educate yourself before you call people noobs solely because they disagree with you. Also you really should read what I say and understand it before you comment. I'm not talking about libido. I don't even think I mentioned it. I said that I felt better. Which could be mental or physical. I was talking about keeping gains Post cycle. I ran a full OTC for Havoc and kept all my gains throughout my PCT. More so than with the SERMs that I have used for PCT.

I am not telling JBOLT he doesn't need a good PCT. I am telling him that he doesn't NEED a SERM for Havoc. It is recommended in case of emergency, but not a must. If he cannot obtain one, then there are a couple OTC options that would work just as well. PPlex, as you foolishly compare to havoc, is another story.

Tons of people on this forum have ran PCT for havoc without a SERM with great results. You can regurgitate what you read other people say, but results speak for themselves.

This argument is just going to go around in circles. So just keep telling everybody they need a SERM for EVERYTHING or they are going to f*** up there hormones and get gyno.
 
From experience I ran Hdrol without a SERM and had no issues. I had no shutdown. Now my current cycle of Havoc shut me down within 10 days. I ordered Nolva ahead of time incase I needed it. I feel that I need it. My nuts look like 50 cent gumballs, I have no libido, and in the long run, I don't feel safe not using a SERM right now.

Anyways, it is all based on your personal preference.

Think about it this way, some people come on here and ask about running two methylated compounds, and most advise no, but some people do it and don't have a problem.....on the other hand, others get pretty sick.

So way out the risk/reward and judge it yourself is all I can say. You know your body the best.
 
Hi, you have received -343 reputation points from Chub.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
pussball CHUBS GAVE ME THIS LOLAHAHAHAHAAH THATS THE FUNNIEST THING I EVER SEEN!!
 
Chub said:
i got confused by his reply, i thought you'd replied to his question lol.

neg hammer! :hammer:
Click to expand...

lol.

na. i would have if I could have given him the accurate reply but the question wasnt even directed to me so I dont get his response
 
maurice02 said:
From experience I ran Hdrol without a SERM and had no issues. I had no shutdown. Now my current cycle of Havoc shut me down within 10 days. I ordered Nolva ahead of time incase I needed it. I feel that I need it. My nuts look like 50 cent gumballs, I have no libido, and in the long run, I don't feel safe not using a SERM right now.

Anyways, it is all based on your personal preference.

Think about it this way, some people come on here and ask about running two methylated compounds, and most advise no, but some people do it and don't have a problem.....on the other hand, others get pretty sick.

So way out the risk/reward and judge it yourself is all I can say. You know your body the best.
Click to expand...

Well a couple people above would say that there is no way to tell you are shut down 10 days in without bloodwork. Honestly, what is the percentage of people on this board that actually get bloodwork done? I say something like 10%, if that. end rant

Anyway. This is sort of what I was trying to say. I understand that it is recommended to have a serm, but people run cycles without them without issues all the time.

I just see people jumping into threads of people that are taking 50mg halo for 4 weeks or 30mg Epi for 4 weeks and telling them they have to have a SERM. Its ridiculous. And it seems that it is a lot of people that have no experience and are just repeating what someone told them.
 
Drjuicebox06 said:
Hi, you have received -343 reputation points from Chub.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
pussball CHUBS GAVE ME THIS LOLAHAHAHAHAAH THATS THE FUNNIEST THING I EVER SEEN!!
Click to expand...

LOLAHAHAHAHAAH:privateeye:
 
stl123 said:
Well a couple people above would say that there is no way to tell you are shut down 10 days in without bloodwork. Honestly, what is the percentage of people on this board that actually get bloodwork done? I say something like 10%, if that. end rant

Anyway. This is sort of what I was trying to say. I understand that it is recommended to have a serm, but people run cycles without them without issues all the time.

I just see people jumping into threads of people that are taking 50mg halo for 4 weeks or 30mg Epi for 4 weeks and telling them they have to have a SERM. Its ridiculous. And it seems that it is a lot of people that have no experience and are just repeating what someone told them.
Click to expand...



Agree about the 10% there with the bloodwork. Kinda dumb but their bods.
When i got mine.....my BUN(kidney function) and SGOT (a liver enzyme) were both elevated as was my K (potassium) during the cycle. Im gonna repeat it again at end of PCT.

WTF is a pussball?
hahaha--- I never ever heard that before lol.
 
stl123 said:
Well a couple people above would say that there is no way to tell you are shut down 10 days in without bloodwork. Honestly, what is the percentage of people on this board that actually get bloodwork done? I say something like 10%, if that. end rant

Anyway. This is sort of what I was trying to say. I understand that it is recommended to have a serm, but people run cycles without them without issues all the time.

I just see people jumping into threads of people that are taking 50mg halo for 4 weeks or 30mg Epi for 4 weeks and telling them they have to have a SERM. Its ridiculous. And it seems that it is a lot of people that have no experience and are just repeating what someone told them.
Click to expand...

very true. not going to disagree there. I can't say i have had bloodwork done while on cycle. I am just comparing different runs (havoc and hdrol). I didn't get the nut shrinkage or any of that on hdrol and used OTC. right now I want to make sure my boys come back and feel safe using a SERM...just how I feel.
 
Drjuicebox06 said:
After an 8 week run of mass fx/hdx2, I ran 6-oxo and tappered down with novedex xt. This was roughly a year ago today. Don't need to hear criticism, as I am much more educated then before. I kept my estrogen too low for too long and I feel I have experienced some rebound. My body fat jumped up, and I lost a reasonable amount of my strength. Any suggestions or advice to fix the problem would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

You should probably listen to what these guys have to say and learn how to grow a pair.
 
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