quigs
Well-known member
Wow i sure hope i can get some gains like that!I mean ill be happy with 1/2 inch. I just really wanna keep my gains.
You should have no trouble maintaining gains from this stuff.
Your Epistane Result's?
- Thread starter MM1Snapper
- Start date
You should have no trouble maintaining gains from this stuff.
gotripped
Banned
i'm still trying to troubleshoot what it is that you may be missing in order to run this effectively...
maybe if you ran test prop w/ it you'd be fine.
SupersetSam
New member
what kinds of sides are you looking at with epistane, with a lower dosage (10-30)? obviously its individual to what people experience, is it the usual acne, gyno etc?
Xodus
Well-known member
Forgot hairloss and lethargy.
quigs
Well-known member
Yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that its a testosterone issue (or lack thereof) while on cycle. I'm sure if I ran some test with it I'd feel much better. Hell, test on its own makes you feel like you're on top of the world. Its just that these oral desgners, with possibly the exception of madol (ergo/phera), really do a number on me. Unfortunately, even though I felt "okay" on ergomax, it put my BP through the roof.
Unfortunately, obtaining testosterone isn't really an option for me.
Ahh well, c'est la vie I suppose.
quigs
Well-known member
For myself (although I used havoc) the main issues were lethargy and loss of libido. I ran it at low-moderate dosages, and didn't experience much in the way of sides until at least weeks 4-5. On the other hand, this is also when I began to experience the best gains.
Synicus
Member
I ran Havoc 10, 20, 20, 20, 20 to reduce existing gyno. Didn't do much to reduce gyno, a little reduction, but put on 10lbs and lifts went up average 10lbs, so that surprised me. I feel good on it but mild lethargy in wk 5, but all PHs seem to start wearing on me @ wk 5, 6, mild hair shedding.
oh yeah, back acne was pretty severe, lol. Tanning, vit E back to normal in 3rd wk Post cycle
oh yeah, back acne was pretty severe, lol. Tanning, vit E back to normal in 3rd wk Post cycle
Synicus
Member
Next cycle in 2 months +:
Pplex 30
Pplex 45
Pplex 45
Pplex 30/Hemaguno 12.5, 12.5, 12.5, 25, 25, 25, 25
Hemaguno 37.5
Hemaguno 37.5/50
Hema is same compound as havoc/epi. I have some Formestane bulk/penetrate coming, I'll try 5g as TD in 2 wks just to see how I react to it, reduce gyno more. I seem to be having some success w/ Tor + Cabergoline + 600mg b6. So your saying run E-form w/ above cycle and following Post Cycle? I suppose it would help w/ any possible gyno flare up w/ Phera.
WebDesigner
Member
Only issue I had was some hair loss which to this day hasn't fully grown back.
neoborn
Well-known member
- Toco 8
- Saw Palmetto
- Massage
- Essential Oil Mix
- Nizoral or Stieprox Shampoo
Use these together in a daily protocol and that should fix you up nice.
Invalid Link Removed
Massage is very important
fireguy10720
New member
What you guys think about an Epi/LMG clone stack?? Thinking about running this one in a month or so. Just givin it some time after my last cycle. Another month will be 3 months off, should be enough. Let me know what you guys think about that one. Thanks..
neoborn
Well-known member
Everyone is advised to not stack two methyls together...ever!
You are on your journey to get stronger / healthier / fitter......not to opt in to the "anyone got a new set of kidneys and a liver" program!
Take care of yourselves people.
If you want to stack, stack a methyl and a non methyl sure, or do real Test.....honestly...save yourselves a whole lot of problems.
Much Love,
Neoborn
You are on your journey to get stronger / healthier / fitter......not to opt in to the "anyone got a new set of kidneys and a liver" program!
Take care of yourselves people.
If you want to stack, stack a methyl and a non methyl sure, or do real Test.....honestly...save yourselves a whole lot of problems.
Much Love,
Neoborn
Interlocutor
New member
i do not full concur here. compare the following 3 cycles on hepatotoxicity:
1. epi/havoc 30/30/40/40
2. pp 30/30/40/40
3.
w1 epi/havoc 10 / pp 20
w2 epi/havoc 10 / pp 20
w3 epi/havoc 20 / pp 20
w4 epi/havoc 30 / pp 10
what is your rationale in assuming that #3 would be more hepatotoxic than #1 or #2?
the issue is to maintain liver stress in a manageable (through add-ons like SAme, Essentiale, PPC, Liver Longer, etc.) range.
if you do this with either one, 2, 3, or 10 methyls stacked is IMHO basically irrelevant, as long as your overall load remains moderate as compared to standalones.
the main issue when stacking methyls is the increasing difficulty of finding a "sweet spot" in the dosing, especially as different compounds seem to have different dosing schemes where their efficiency as compared to their toxicity is optimal, which may even change when stacking: i.e. individual efficiency may go down (e.g. through substrate - AR - depletion), while toxicity simply adds up. i.e. effect with stacking is often 2+2 = 3, whereas toxicity is almost always 2+2 = 4 (but not 2+2 = 5, as you would imply).
stacking with non-methyls is simpler because you can go much further upwards in combined effective dosing, like 2+4=4, while toxicity would still be like 2+0.5 = 2.5.
actually, i am strongly convinced that because of its specific properties havoc/epi makes a good add on (if appropriately dosed) to almost any stack (with some exceptions with very similar properties, such as IMHO superdrol), but especially with wet and/or aromatizing compounds, such as PP (yes, methyl), or generally compounds with opposing properties/profiles (e.g. Propadrol).
i would much rather stack two methyls with good synergy and controlled and moderate dosing for optimal results at manageable sides than any two compounds with very bad synergy (similar profiles) at high dosing with loads of possible sides for the same overall results.
when you look at overall issues, you have to take more than simply hepatotoxicity into consideration. non-methyls have, besides that, all of the same issues as methyls (depending on compound): lipids, estrogen depletion (if 5a reduced), blood pressure, hair loss, acne, shutdown, gyno, etc. which all go up with increasing dose. i'd probably prefer stack #3 from above to most non-methyl FinigenX/MAX LMG/ Propadrol stacks dosed such as to provide the same results.
IMHO the goal of any cycle setup should be to stack compounds such as to optimize synergy for specific goals at minimal toxicity (hepatic and otherwise). more often than not, this would imply NOT stacking at all, if we look at some of the common stacks we see tossed around. one can't shake the feeling that a standalone at decent dose would often have had the same (or almost the same) results than the proposed stack at higher overall "load". especially when very similar compounds are combined. e.g. look at havoc/epi (at standard dosing) + fura 100mg, which you sometimes see. does this really add anything to the overall result as compared to a havoc/epi standalone at maybe slightly higher dose (such as 10mg more on workout days) but cost, some slightly increased BP and some slightly increased shutdown?
what if uly concur with that you should never simply add two standalone cycles together when using methyls without very good reason, e.g.:
4.
w1 epi/havoc 30 / pp 30
w2 epi/havoc 30 / pp 30
w3 epi/havoc 40 / pp 40
w4 epi/havoc 40 / pp 40
would be much more toxic, and thus probably something to be considered only by the more experienced/heavier users as compared to #1, #2 or #3.
unfortunately, in an effort to optimize gains, many seem to seek a middle ground like:
5.
w1 epi/havoc 20 / pp 20
w2 epi/havoc 20 / pp 20
w3 epi/havoc 30 / pp 30
w4 epi/havoc 30 / pp 30
which while possibly tolerable (or more so than #4) may be considered on the high side, and surely more stressfull than either #1, #2 or #3. i think this style of thinking gave the stacking of methys such a bad rep.
furthermore, the user above is talking about epi/LMG. if he means MAX LMG and not ergomax LMG... the MAX LMG is non-methyl, and IMHO might actualy stack pretty well with the epi/havoc.
T.I.
neoborn
Well-known member
Good reply INT. I surely don't have the time to answer the essay you have responded with. I agree with you on most points such as:
Makes perfect sense to me.
Makes sense as well.
After reading this thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/77522-stacking-methyls-b.html
I follow this really for safety:
I am sure Bobo aka Jerry aka Kramer, Sinner and Lake could chime in here for a better discussion.
Int said:
Makes perfect sense to me.
Int said:
Makes sense as well.
After reading this thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/77522-stacking-methyls-b.html
I follow this really for safety:
I am sure Bobo aka Jerry aka Kramer, Sinner and Lake could chime in here for a better discussion.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
It all depends on the metabolites. Everyone hates hearing that, but to say much more, I might as well say "Banana Banana Banana."
17 alpha alkylated steroids are liver toxic because they are unable to hold a ketone on carbon 17.
The general rule of thumb has always been not to stack 2; however, there's *some* wiggle room, depending on how much said steroids affect liver enzymes.
Epistane and Havoc are relatively mild; however, pheraplex is quite toxic. For some, it can be more toxic than superdrol, which certainly adds credibility to the notion that
superdrol+pheraplex is worse than straight superdrol.
Since the human body is pretty much a series of chemical processes (like it or leave it), we can correlate the human liver as kind of a PFR (plug flow reactor). In which case, the size of you liver will be equal to the integral (from X to 0) of the molar flowrate of steroid into the liver times the change in conversion of said metabolites all divided by the reaction rate. Solve for the change in concentration. Take the stoichiometric ratios and convert for these toxic metbolites, and there you go. Now repeat this calculation for every additional steroid you wish to stack. Nonmethyls and injectables can be toxic as well, but toxic dosage is much much higher.
So to summarize, the following things will affect liver toxicity:
-What the steroid is.
-How it metabolizes in the system.
-How much is being taken
-The current state of the liver.
-The size of the liver (total volume)
17 alpha alkylated steroids are liver toxic because they are unable to hold a ketone on carbon 17.
The general rule of thumb has always been not to stack 2; however, there's *some* wiggle room, depending on how much said steroids affect liver enzymes.
Epistane and Havoc are relatively mild; however, pheraplex is quite toxic. For some, it can be more toxic than superdrol, which certainly adds credibility to the notion that
superdrol+pheraplex is worse than straight superdrol.
Since the human body is pretty much a series of chemical processes (like it or leave it), we can correlate the human liver as kind of a PFR (plug flow reactor). In which case, the size of you liver will be equal to the integral (from X to 0) of the molar flowrate of steroid into the liver times the change in conversion of said metabolites all divided by the reaction rate. Solve for the change in concentration. Take the stoichiometric ratios and convert for these toxic metbolites, and there you go. Now repeat this calculation for every additional steroid you wish to stack. Nonmethyls and injectables can be toxic as well, but toxic dosage is much much higher.
So to summarize, the following things will affect liver toxicity:
-What the steroid is.
-How it metabolizes in the system.
-How much is being taken
-The current state of the liver.
-The size of the liver (total volume)
Interlocutor
New member
thanks for the clarification, maybe PP was a bad example to chose from. personally, i haven't tried it, but got bile congestion even from havoc at 20mg at about day 10. despite NAC, ALA, MT... so, i'm now pretty carefuly myself. despite the word "stochiometric" pushing me back 20 years in time to my chemistry days i get the impression we are in general agreement:
you have the capacity to metabolize a certain amount X of, let's say "poison". as long as you are below that capacity threshold you are comparatively safe. now, you add compounds of varying "poisonicity". non-methyls rate comparatively low, methyls may rate comparatively high, but may still greatly differ. you can add as much as you want (notwithstanding other side effects) as long as you don't exceed that threshold.
or maybe another analog... hmm... the liver is a bucket holding poison, with a hole. the liver size/status defines the size of the hole. let's say you have a 4 gallon bucket, and a hole which allows 1 gallon/hour out. different methyls (and non-methyls) add different amounts of poison to the bucket. 20mg of havoc may add 1 gallon/hour. 20mg of PP may add 3 gallon/hour (figuratively speaking). if you add more than can go through the whole in a given time, and the bucket can hold, the bucket overflows, and bad things start to happen. as long as the bucket does not overflow, you can add whatever you like. the main issue is that we neither know exactly how much load each compound adds, nor the size of our bucket or our hole.
the question is: do we have some statistical information on the relative hepatotoxicity of various compounds (such as we have from Vida on AA ratios) such as to better design stacked cycles?
T.I.
ibanezman08
Active member
i pulsed epistane for 2 weeks and didn't like the ups and downs of pulsing.
i'm at the end of my 3rd week on epistane and so far i've gained 4lbs and +10-20lbs on all my lifts. not bad
i'm at the end of my 3rd week on epistane and so far i've gained 4lbs and +10-20lbs on all my lifts. not bad
Pemmican
Member
the whole idea behind PCT is to regulate your rebounding estrogen levels, boost your natural test levels to where they were prior to the cycle, and to prevent gyno. You really don't need to regulate estrogen after PCT because that is the ultimate goal during PCT and you should have it under control by then anyway. However, that doesnt mean you cannot continue to take a product like 6-OXO...boosts test, blocks estrogen, prevents aromatase...even after the PCT.
nattydisaster
PESCIENCE.com
10-12lbs is most common. Very good, keepable gains.
waynaferd
Well-known member
I got about a week left at 50mg, and so far up about 13 pounds and added 25-30 to the big 3 lifts.
I did it like this
week 1.......10 first day, 20 rest of week
week 2.......30mg
week 3.......40mg
week 4.......40 first half, 50 the last half
week 5.......50mg
And I haven't experienced any sides, save for a possible "neck pump", but I attribute that to flat pillows at the hotel.
I did it like this
week 1.......10 first day, 20 rest of week
week 2.......30mg
week 3.......40mg
week 4.......40 first half, 50 the last half
week 5.......50mg
And I haven't experienced any sides, save for a possible "neck pump", but I attribute that to flat pillows at the hotel.
maurice02
Active member
I am only 5 days in. Started 10, then 20, and 30 for the passed three days. Probably gonna run 30 till end of week 2.....and then jump to 40 and possibly 50 after that.
Nothing to report here as of yet, but obviously early in my cycle. i am looking to get more of a "cut" out of mine and lost bf% and maintain strength if not increase a bit....
we will see i guess.
Nothing to report here as of yet, but obviously early in my cycle. i am looking to get more of a "cut" out of mine and lost bf% and maintain strength if not increase a bit....
we will see i guess.