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Taking orals during the day: a waste?

Gixxer82 said:
Who needs em' when we got the all knowing gixxnanas in the house??
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Haha, so true Gix-sta!

I do agree with K's methodology. I dose pre-w/o & pre-bed too. Because I lift late, it equates to a pre and post w/o dose like I stress with pulsing.

Repair occurs during sleep, that's when you wanna be anabolic (GH levels are pegged also to support that metabolism.) The main thing that needs to be addressed during the day is not anabolism so much as anti-catabolism (cortisol control.) Cortisol is low during sleep, but spikes upon waking and during the day in response to stress.

Great thread Kwyk!
 
So it's safe to say it all starts with something triggering or triggering within the hypothalamus. I know I know obvious to some, I'm learning here :D

Kwck who would have deep knowledge of these processes i.e. natural biorythmms etc?

Much Love,

Neoborn

*Edit* Looks like D has a good idea :)
 
DR.D said:
Haha, so true Gix-sta!

I do agree with K's methodology. I dose pre-w/o & pre-bed too. Because I lift late, it equates to a pre and post w/o dose like I stress with pulsing.

Repair occurs during sleep, that's when you wanna be anabolic (GH levels are pegged also to support that metabolism.) The main thing that needs to be addressed during the day is not anabolism so much as anti-catabolism (cortisol control.) Cortisol is low during sleep, but spikes upon waking and during the day in response to stress.

Great thread Kwyk!
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So then would it not be better to take the full dose split at post workout and pre bed for those most anabolic times. Then throughout the day take anti cort? I.e. one or more morning then after noon every 'x' hours?

Much Love,

Neoborn
 
neoborn said:
So then would it not be better to take the full dose split at post workout and pre bed for those most anabolic times. Then throughout the day take anti cort? I.e. one or more morning then after noon every 'x' hours?

Much Love,

Neoborn
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WeWee! (that's canadian/french, I'm multi-lingual like that) :)

BUT, you also need a dose of androgen or at least the anti-catabolic pre-w/o too.
 
hahaha kwyckemyndoism sounds like a religious idea combined with a scientific term regarding testicles. :icon_lol:
 
DR.D said:
WeWee! (that's canadian/french, I'm multi-lingual like that) :)

BUT, you also need a dose of androgen or at least the anti-catabolic pre-w/o too.
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LOL you multi lingual mofo!:thumbsup:

So would this be perfect then?:

1. Morning 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

2. 6hrs or so later another 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

3. Pre workout 50% dose Epistane / Anabolic / 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

4. Sip on BCAA's drink during workout

5. Post workout Protein drink 10 - 20g's BCAA's

6. 1 Hour later solid protein / carb meal

7. 6hrs or pre bed Anti-Cort X-Lean 1 or 2 caps + 50% Epistane / Anabolic

8. Sleep and build hugorz musklez?

9. Morning rinse n repeat?
​
Much love,

Neoborn
 
Gixxer82 said:
I always knew I would be something great some day. My next cycle i'm definitely going to take pre workout/right before bed/in the middle of the night. I'll be the guinea pig, so no one better do that sh*t before me!
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You've got guinea pig arms anyway, so I say go for it.

Do you apply that motto to everything you do? I'll call it kwyckemyndoism, nyc is already a firm follower if you know what I mean.
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Actually, I do apply that motto quite broadly. There are very few limitations on it.

E.G. IF it fits in a lady boy, why not? But if it fits in a man-lady, no way.
 
neoborn said:
LOL you multi lingual mofo!:thumbsup:

So would this be perfect then?:

1. Morning 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

2. 6hrs or so later another 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

3. Pre workout 50% dose Epistane / Anabolic / 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

4. Sip on BCAA's drink during workout

5. Post workout Protein drink 10 - 20g's BCAA's

6. 1 Hour later solid protein / carb meal

7. 6hrs or pre bed Anti-Cort X-Lean 1 or 2 caps + 50% Epistane / Anabolic

8. Sleep and build hugorz musklez?

9. Morning rinse n repeat?
​
Much love,

Neoborn
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Sounds kickass to me. Now who wants to fund my research?

One bit of info. If I'm remembering correctly, Anabolic refers to Anabolic Pump, right? The insulin thingy majigger? If so, I was also under the impression that insulin isn't so much hugely anabolic as it is insanely anti-catabolic. If I'm not mistake there, I'd consider the AP doses most effective during the day and workout time.
 
neoborn said:
LOL you multi lingual mofo!:thumbsup:

So would this be perfect then?:

1. Morning 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

2. 6hrs or so later another 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

3. Pre workout 50% dose Epistane / Anabolic / 1 or 2 caps Anti Cort X-Lean

4. Sip on BCAA's drink during workout

5. Post workout Protein drink 10 - 20g's BCAA's

6. 1 Hour later solid protein / carb meal

7. 6hrs or pre bed Anti-Cort X-Lean 1 or 2 caps + 50% Epistane / Anabolic

8. Sleep and build hugorz musklez?

9. Morning rinse n repeat?
​
Much love,

Neoborn
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Very close:

1) Yes
2) Or around 3pm, cort spikes again mid afternoon usually.
3) Yes
4) Plus some complex carbs too IMO
5) Mixed carbs, BCAA's or FFAA's
6) 1 hr later Protein (fast acting whey)
7) No anti-cort (at least no DHEA based anti-cort), only during the day! Not needed at night when cort is low and can disrupt DHEA/melatonin biorhythm
8) Yes
9) Yes :0
 
WeWee.... you're excluded. Not a homo. You do live in TX, right? Should have guessed. Isn't homosexuality punishable by death via rabid/horny/hungry chimpanzee pack in TX?
 
DR.D said:
Very close:

1) Yes
2) Or around 3pm, cort spikes again mid afternoon usually.
3) Yes
4) Plus some complex carbs too IMO
5) Mixed carbs, BCAA's or FFAA's
6) 1 hr later Protein (fast acting whey)
7) No anti-cort (at least no DHEA based anti-cort), only during the day! Not needed at night when cort is low and can disrupt DHEA/melatonin biorhythm
8) Yes
9) Yes :0
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Will give this a go when all my orders come in. Looking forward to trying this out. We'll see how the perfection works on the darn near perfect :P

Much love and thanks as always D!

Neoborn

P.S don't make me fly down to fix your f'n MSN :rasp:
 
"Taking orals during the day: a waste?" Taking oral during the day is never a waste. Now giving..... thats a whole nother story.
 
Gixxer82 said:
what about a merman?


"Much love,"

Gixxer82 aka gixxnanas
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Hmmm, I think K's right, in TX that probably still goes in the homo category technically, sorry Gix.

We'd have to take ya out behind the barn and let the donkey have his way with you if we caught you hanging out with some gay merman. :lol:
 
EasyEJL said:
wouldn't just megadosed BCAA or EAA work ok as an anticatabolic?
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Yes, it's just the thermogenesis from hyperaminoacidemia going into a w/o that gets me. I run hot enough as it is. I have had fair results with specific aminos like HMB as non-DHEA pre-w/o anti-catabolics though.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Mer-lady-boy, maybe. If it has gills and big boobs. I believe fish genitals are on the inside, so its all good.
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kwyckemynd00 again! :rofl:

Man, you should have been a lawyer bro. You could get Gix off the hook like Johnny Cochran and OJ Simpson! (fishy genitalia, lol)
 
The anabolic mechanism of action of androgens is primarily via regulating gene transcription. This is a time-delayed process, and increases at a rate proportional to the log of the androgen concentration. From the standpoint of anabolism, lower more frequent dosing is preferable.

Of course androgens also result in a mental state which is conducive to increased workout intensity. While this is probably also a logarithmic function of serum androgen concentration, my own experience leads me to believe that the point of diminishing returns is experienced at higher dosages relative to gene transcription.
 
Do you have any research available which discusses dose and timing?

The fact that the AR receptors saturate (thus the log function response) doesn't mean much in itself with regards to taking lower more frequent doses being the preferable way of administration for short-lived orals, at least not in the respect that I'm begging the question. You could be right, I'm just saying the initial question wasn't answered.

For example, if other cellular processes are keeping those ribosomes busy during the day androgens binding to the AR may not directly translate into protein synthesis. There are specific times when protein synthesis rates are high (two very different states), PWO and sleep. So, what I"m wondering is if there are times when protein synthesis just isn't a top cellular priority and AAS just won't accomplish (to any great degree) what we intend them to.

Again, I don't really care to be right or wrong, just begging the question. I've been researching the subject when I get spare time, so we'll see where it goes.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Do you have any research available which discusses dose and timing?

The fact that the AR receptors saturate (thus the log function response) doesn't mean much in itself with regards to taking lower more frequent doses being the preferable way of administration for short-lived orals, at least not in the respect that I'm begging the question. You could be right, I'm just saying the initial question wasn't answered.

For example, if other cellular processes are keeping those ribosomes busy during the day androgens binding to the AR may not directly translate into protein synthesis. There are specific times when protein synthesis rates are high (two very different states), PWO and sleep. So, what I"m wondering is if there are times when protein synthesis just isn't a top cellular priority and anabolic steroids just won't accomplish (to any great degree) what we intend them to.

Again, I don't really care to be right or wrong, just begging the question. I've been researching the subject when I get spare time, so we'll see where it goes.
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I saw a study which looked at weight gain and body composition as a function of dosage/serum testosterone concentration. Diminishing returns kicked in pretty hard at around 600mg a week if I remember correctly.

Testosterone itself appears to have a limited role in directly stimulating protein synthesis, but rather initiates a cascade of gene transcription events, ultimately leading to a cellular environment which is more conducive to anabolism. It may be true that you only grow when you're sleeping, I don't care enough to examine the issue at great length, but your rate of growth during sleep is going to be influenced by the state of the cell (which is of course greatly influenced by concentrations of regulatory gene products) at that time. Let's assume you're correct that we only grow significantly during sleep... If you take your steroids immediately before sleep you're not allowing sufficient time for the gene products to accumulate, and 24 hours later turnover is already starting to take place. If what you postulate is true, it would actually make sense to take your dosage early-mid day rather than later on. Ultimately the most anabolic cellular state is going to be achieved for a fixed dosage of testosterone by spreading the dosage as evenly as possible to maximize the production of gene products and put the cell in the most anabolic state possible

Of course, this is to some degree mitigated by SHBG, so for most androgens this is a semi-moot point (as I understand it, trenbolone is known to have a low binding affinity for SHBG).
 
exnihilo said:
The anabolic mechanism of action of androgens is primarily via regulating gene transcription. This is a time-delayed process, and increases at a rate proportional to the log of the androgen concentration. From the standpoint of anabolism, lower more frequent dosing is preferable.

Of course androgens also result in a mental state which is conducive to increased workout intensity. While this is probably also a logarithmic function of serum androgen concentration, my own experience leads me to believe that the point of diminishing returns is experienced at higher dosages relative to gene transcription.
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Hey Ex, you're lookin' lean man! Where you been?

I assume you refer mostly to chronic use of non-methyls with the gene transcription as it relates to nitrogen retention? Because the effects of androgen of carbohydrate metabolism precede those events anyway (by days in fact) and most orals are really a whole different animal too with multiple anabolic pathways. Large, infrequent dosing of methyls does not result in diminishing returns very quickly at all, though the returns are suboptimal in the first place at least relative to anabolism, as you mentioned.
 
DR.D said:
Hey Ex, you're lookin' lean man! Where you been?

I assume you refer mostly to chronic use of non-methyls with the gene transcription as it relates to nitrogen retention? Because the effects of androgen of carbohydrate metabolism precede those events anyway (by days in fact) and most orals are really a whole different animal too with multiple anabolic pathways. Large, infrequent dosing of methyls does not result in diminishing returns very quickly at all, though the returns are suboptimal in the first place at least relative to anabolism, as you mentioned.
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I've been around, I just hang out in the MMA forum primarily. I need shoulder surgery so I've had to shelf the powerlifting, now I'm primarily training for fitness and (hopefully soon) competitive MMA.

I'll don't know that much about the differences in pharmacokinetics between methylated and non methylated hormones. Perhaps you should be the one to answer the finer points of Kwyk's questions :)
 
exnihilo said:
I've been around, I just hang out in the MMA forum primarily. I need shoulder surgery so I've had to shelf the powerlifting, now I'm primarily training for fitness and (hopefully soon) competitive MMA.

I'll don't know that much about the differences in pharmacokinetics between methylated and non methylated hormones. Perhaps you should be the one to answer the finer points of Kwyk's questions :)
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Well that sounds cool, the competitive MMA. Sorry about the shoulder (I can relate and sympathize!) but you're looking very fit at least. :)
 
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