Proper procedure to access results of a new supplement?

[CROWLER]

We at Anabolic Innovations came out with a new supplement by the name of POST Cycle Support, designed by The Sinner. It was intended to be used after a Cycle of anabolic steroids and/or Prosteroids/prohormones.

Then to our surprise we had some knowledgeable people say it looked like it would be a great product for people who do not do anabolic steroids and do not want to do prohormones or prosteroids.

I have received a number of PMs and emails asking if it would be good to use for this. More and more people are worried about using anabolic steroids and now even prohormones seeing as how the research chem sites seem to be drawing the attention of the Federal Govt.

I don't know if it is true or not but I have even heard that seemingly legal research chem places are having their computers taken for their lists of email addresses of their customers. Does this even seem possible to you?

So back to the question, what would be a good procedure to access if it really would be a good product for this purpose?

Suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,


CROWLER


EDIT Thank you to B151 (ASSESS) for pointing out my spelling error it is not Access but I can't edit the title to the thread.

 

[T-Bone]

We at Anabolic Innovations came out with a new supplement by the name of POST Cycle Support, designed by The Sinner. It was intended to be used after a Cycle of anabolic steroids and/or Prosteroids/prohormones.

Then to our surprise we had some knowledgeable people say it looked like it would be a great product for people who do not do anabolic steroids and do not want to do prohormones or prosteroids.

I have received a number of PMs and emails asking if it would be good to use for this. More and more people are worried about using anabolic steroids and now even prohormones seeing as how the research chem sites seem to be drawing the attention of the Federal Govt.

I don't know if it is true or not but I have even heard that seemingly legal research chem places are having their computers taken for their lists of email addresses of their customers. Does this even seem possible to you?

So back to the question, what would be a good procedure to access if it really would be a good product for this purpose?

Suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,


CROWLER

Give some to a willing Freeloader to try for free!. The thing is I would want them to test it without the use of any other supplements for the same purpose. Or you could have a buy Cycle Support get Post Cycle Support free sale?.


:run: :run: :run: :run: :run: :run: :run: :run:

 

[slow-mun]

We at Anabolic Innovations came out with a new supplement by the name of POST Cycle Support, designed by The Sinner. It was intended to be used after a Cycle of anabolic steroids and/or Prosteroids/prohormones.

Then to our surprise we had some knowledgeable people say it looked like it would be a great product for people who do not do anabolic steroids and do not want to do prohormones or prosteroids.

I have received a number of PMs and emails asking if it would be good to use for this. More and more people are worried about using anabolic steroids and now even prohormones seeing as how the research chem sites seem to be drawing the attention of the Federal Govt.

I don't know if it is true or not but I have even heard that seemingly legal research chem places are having their computers taken for their lists of email addresses of their customers. Does this even seem possible to you?

So back to the question, what would be a good procedure to access if it really would be a good product for this purpose?

Suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,


CROWLER

Have logs conducted by known, natural bodybuilding enthusiasts. Make them pay S&H, so the product isn't 100% free. This might help to keep the logs as honest as possible.

 

[rpen22]

Have logs conducted by known, natural bodybuilding enthusiasts. Make them pay S&H, so the product isn't 100% free. This might help to keep the logs as honest as possible.

I like this idea, but it might be hard to find many candidates. You could either make them pay S&H or just give them a discount on the product that will be used for the testing.

 

[slow-mun]

I like this idea, but it might be hard to find many candidates. You could either make them pay S&H or just give them a discount on the product that will be used for the testing.

Maybe give them a voucher to order from the AI website that offers a 50% discount on items ordered(not just Post Cycle Support, but that does have to be in the cart)and free shipping. I really wish there was somone prepping for an endurance event of some sort too. That would probably make for an interesting log.

 

[krogtaar]

in for free stuff testing...but yeah, sponsor or semi sponsor a few logs of it stand alone so people see feedback on it

 

[EasyEJL]

Plus its all the rage about life extension too.

 

[T-Bone]

Plus its all the rage about life extension too.

Shut up GrandPa, take your damn walker and get outta here!!!





































Just kidding!:toofunny: :toofunny:

 

[EasyEJL]

older crowd my ass

you kids nowadays disrepecting your elders

 

[CROWLER]

Maybe give them a voucher to order from the AI website that offers a 50% discount on items ordered(not just Post Cycle Support, but that does have to be in the cart)and free shipping. I really wish there was somone prepping for an endurance event of some sort too. That would probably make for an interesting log.

What do you mean when you say an endurance event?

And why would that interest you?

Thanks


CROWLER

 

[Rodja]

Maybe give them a voucher to order from the AI website that offers a 50% discount on items ordered(not just Post Cycle Support, but that does have to be in the cart)and free shipping. I really wish there was somone prepping for an endurance event of some sort too. That would probably make for an interesting log.

What qualifies as an endurance event to you? I consider MMA to be an endurance event, but perhaps you disagree.

 

[EasyEJL]

Triathalon is what I think of, ironman maybe

 

[slow-mun]

What do you mean when you say an endurance event?

And why would that interest you?

Thanks


CROWLER

Somebody training for a triathlon or an avid cyclist could be a good judge of the resveratrol's anti-inflamatory benefits. Its also been reported to increase cardio endurance in mice. Its anti-viral benefits could also help to maintain an athlete's health and well being while training for these types of events. It just seems like it would be a good fit.

 

[slow-mun]

What qualifies as an endurance event to you? I consider MMA to be an endurance event, but perhaps you disagree.

That would qualify. Basically, I would be speaking of anything where your training is just as, or more grueling, than the the actual event. Boxing, MMA, Running, Cycling, Triathlete, Swimmer, etc...

 

[CROWLER]

ahhhhh would putting in 375 - 500 miles of biking a week for a total of 30 + hours in cardio in prep for triathlon racing fit that description


CROWLER

 

[slow-mun]

ahhhhh would putting in 375 - 500 miles of biking a week for a total of 30 + hours in cardio in prep for triathlon racing fit that description


CROWLER

That's you, isn't it? Have you tried supplementing with it yet?

 

[thebigt]

What do you mean when you say an endurance event?

And why would that interest you?

Thanks


CROWLER

getting out of bed after just 6 hours sleep.

 

[CROWLER]

That's you, isn't it? Have you tried supplementing with it yet?

Yes that is me and no I have not tried it. Reason is I did not know the things you posted about resveratrol up above. Actually I have really increased my training load and am finding it more and more difficult to recover because of muscle fatigue and some major DOMS because of the day in and day out training.

If it really does work as you say it MIGHT this would be FANTASTIC. Any guess on what a good dosage would be?


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

double to quadruple your label dose

 

[EasyEJL]

i'm currently taking 2g active resveratrol (4g of 50%) a day with 1 g quercetin

 

[CROWLER]

Maybe I will try a lower dosage so we can see if it does work and at what level.

BTW I have a powertap on my bike which actually measures output of watts so you get a real accurate look at how much you are improving, or just staying the same as far as your results.


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

the rat tests done with resveratrol were done with something in the range of 500mg to 2g active based on a human bodyweight of 200lbs

 

[slow-mun]

Yes that is me and no I have not tried it. Reason is I did not know the things you posted about resveratrol up above. Actually I have really increased my training load and am finding it more and more difficult to recover because of muscle fatigue and some major DOMS because of the day in and day out training.

If it really does work as you say it MIGHT this would be FANTASTIC. Any guess on what a good dosage would be?


CROWLER

I would try supplementing at the recommended dose the first week, then double the recommended dose thereafter. Trying to duplicate the animal testing in humans isn't an exact science(more variables than just weight/dosages), so I would just play with it, until you felt a sweet spot. I figure an endurance athlete would be able to notice any effects quicker than anyone else, since there training is physically more demanding than that of a weight lifter.

 

[EasyEJL]

and just so you see it for yourself crowler, look at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe and even Puritan http://www.puritan.com/pages/file.asp?PID=5587&CID=&CPID=8465

at both prices as well as resveratrol dosage. You'll see that post cycle support is more than competitive

 

[CROWLER]

I would try supplementing at the recommended dose the first week, then double the recommended dose thereafter. Trying to duplicate the animal testing in humans isn't an exact science(more variables than just weight/dosages), so I would just play with it, until you felt a sweet spot. I figure an endurance athlete would be able to notice any effects quicker than anyone else, since there training is physically more demanding than that of a weight lifter.

Not sure I agree with doubling the dosage after 1 week. I am one who tries to use as little as what is needed to get the results you are looking for.

I prefer to have a person use our products as the suggested dosages rather than encourage using double or triple just to make more sales.


CROWLER

 

[slow-mun]

Not sure I agree with doubling the dosage after 1 week. I am one who tries to use as little as what is needed to get the results you are looking for.

I prefer to have a person use our products as the suggested dosages rather than encourage using double or triple just to make more sales.


CROWLER

The upping of the dosage after the first week was only if no benefits were noticed. I agree with the mindset of "using the least amount of product to accomplish the task." Not just with supplement usage but in most everything. Recommended dosage would be the best judge for this.

 

[B5150]

access: the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or use; admittance: They have access to the files.

assess: to estimate or judge the value, character, etc., of; evaluate: to assess one's efforts.

My assumption is that you mean to assess your products results rather than access them.

If your prodcut is designer to lower something, elevate something or otherwise alter, remedy or restore a set value then the only TRUE way to assess the results is to have data to support such.

The means in which someones values are elevated, deminished or altered may or may not need be disclosed.

Logs, anecdotal feedback (my boys are huge) and opinion is not assessing the results. It is just speculation supported by nothing but somones opinion.

I suspect that if you are a business man that is willing to invest in the development of your prodcut then you may also need to invest in the testing of it as well. Set a prescribed testing protocol for characteristics that your product is intened to modify and provide the testing method to do so.

IOW: If it is intended to elevate free/bound/total test then that needs to be tested pre and post product testing.

If it is to reduce E2 then that needs to be tested pre and post product testing.

Offer to reimburse testers for their bloodwork and maybe offer some other incentive.

As a mature profesional consumer I ignore every single new product that is hyped and pimped on these boards because I see nothing to support their claims.

BTW, what are you using to protect your liver?

 

[EasyEJL]

in general i would agree, but how did you decide on the recommended dosage in the first place?

 

[CROWLER]

They were decided by The Sinner who I was VERY fortunate to formulat POST Cycle Support.


CROWLER

 

[CROWLER]

Well I REALLY got this thread off topic lol

Let's see if we can get it back on topic.

Ok so far what has been suggested is to have people test the product and give their results but they pay for the shipping.

Not really much different than a sponsored log except the shipping. I see so many times that people don't trust company sponsored logs so that doesn't seem to be the new and exciting idea I was looking for lol

Maybe this is why we have always relied on actual customers to purchase a product and just hope they post their results.

If anyone has other suggestions we are all ears and appreciate the help.


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

(I knew the answer just wanted to hear it) and what did he base that choice on? what sort of desired effects, etc. its not like the label dose was a matter of scientific experimentation, etc. So going higher than that dose isn't necessarily a bad thing either, as it mostly was an opinion dose.

I do agree with slowmun tho, the lower the better in general, so long as you are getting desired results.

 

[EasyEJL]

The other choice is drop high $ to run a university study, which sucks.

 

[thebigt]

i agree, offering someone $50 worth of free product and wanting blood tests is bogus, testing is 5xmore expensive.

 

[B5150]

Maybe this is why we have always relied on actual customers to purchase a product and just hope they post their results.

Quantify results please.

If anyone has other suggestions we are all ears and appreciate the help.


CROWLER

access: the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or use; admittance: They have access to the files.

assess: to estimate or judge the value, character, etc., of; evaluate: to assess one's efforts.

My assumption is that you mean to assess your products results rather than access them.

If your prodcut is designer to lower something, elevate something or otherwise alter, remedy or restore a set value then the only TRUE way to assess the results is to have data to support such.

The means in which someones values are elevated, deminished or altered may or may not need be disclosed.

Logs, anecdotal feedback (my boys are huge) and opinion is not assessing the results. It is just speculation supported by nothing but somones opinion.

I suspect that if you are a business man that is willing to invest in the development of your prodcut then you may also need to invest in the testing of it as well. Set a prescribed testing protocol for characteristics that your product is intened to modify and provide the testing method to do so.

IOW: If it is intended to elevate free/bound/total test then that needs to be tested pre and post product testing.

If it is to reduce E2 then that needs to be tested pre and post product testing.

Offer to reimburse testers for their bloodwork and maybe offer some other incentive.

As a mature profesional consumer I ignore every single new product that is hyped and pimped on these boards because I see nothing to support their claims.

BTW, what are you using to protect your liver?

 

[matthew76]

I'll pay for it - pay for the Panels - and log my results for no cost to AI. I believe in CROWLER and AI that much...

 

[CROWLER]

How are those double blind studies run? Probably very expensive thought right?


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

I've heard bottom end is $10k, most are more like $40-60k

 

[slow-mun]

Well I REALLY got this thread off topic lol

Let's see if we can get it back on topic.

Ok so far what has been suggested is to have people test the product and give their results but they pay for the shipping.

Not really much different than a sponsored log except the shipping. I see so many times that people don't trust company sponsored logs so that doesn't seem to be the new and exciting idea I was looking for lol

Maybe this is why we have always relied on actual customers to purchase a product and just hope they post their results.

If anyone has other suggestions we are all ears and appreciate the help.


CROWLER

If you have anyone test it, then go outside all of the forums to find testers. Find people who frequent these places, sometimes do it just for free product and testing opportunities. I'm sure you know people who are training like you are, so just offer them a bottle to run side by side with you and compare results. Feedback for applications outside of PCT will occur in time. Hell, I'm buying this product in another couple of weeks for this purpose.

 

[EasyEJL]

if you just look at blood panels start and finish thats at least 500-1k per person. so a 12 man double blind is at least 6k-12k in blood tests, forgetting any other costs.

 

[CROWLER]

Quantify results please.

You mean results like this from people who actually bought the product not company sponsored logs?


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-innovations/76997-149-90-127-a.html

I have a buddy who was trying for the Air National Guard and was failing his blood pressure. I bought him a tub of Cycle Support and today he went in and tested at an amazing 127/70 and is now almost set to be a Load Master with the guard to finish out his retirement.

I have a buddy who was trying for the Air National Guard and was failing his blood pressure. I bought him a tub of Cycle Support and today he went in and tested at an amazing 127/70 and is now almost set to be a Load Master with the guard to finish out his retirement.

and:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolic-innovations/53347-cycle-support-life.html


There are more people who have paid for their own blood work and their own Cycle Support and have posted unsolicited comments both here and at BB.com.


CROWLER

 

[CROWLER]

If you have anyone test it, then go outside all of the forums to find testers. Find people who frequent these places, sometimes do it just for free product and testing opportunities. I'm sure you know people who are training like you are, so just offer them a bottle to run side by side with you and compare results. Feedback for applications outside of post cycle therapy will occur in time. Hell, I'm buying this product in another couple of weeks for this purpose.

Great idea. I will see if we can do something like that, THANKS!


CROWLER

 

[B5150]

Exactly!!!

There was much hype about your product based on what it COULD do. But when I say what it DID do then I was sold on it. I will be trading in my individual prodcuts the next time around and buying CS.

 

[thesinner]

I guess the big question is what are we trying to assess from this?

If people are planning on taking this as a performance enhancer, improving body composition, or for hormone balancing? These parameters are completely different, and should be assessed through different means.

 

[CROWLER]

Exactly!!!

There was much hype about your product based on what it COULD do. But when I say what it DID do then I was sold on it. I will be trading in my individual prodcuts the next time around and buying CS.

Very kind of you to say, thank you!

You know of course now your post will be linked to if anyone calls BS on Cycle Support lol


CROWLER

 

[B5150]

I guess the big question is what are we trying to assess from this?

If people are planning on taking this as a performance enhancer, improving body composition, or for hormone balancing? These parameters are completely different, and should be assessed through different means.

You are quite familiar with DOE's and the likes. Establish the parameters and the methods to quantify. Then determine testing and cost. It may not be as bad as you think once you establish the parameters.

 

[thesinner]

How are those double blind studies run? Probably very expensive thought right?


CROWLER

Here's a hypothetical example of a double blind study:

Sinner is doing a double blind study of post cycle support.

He gives 10 bottles of PCS and 10 identical-looking bottles of Capped Flour (placebo) to CROWLER. Crowler distributes the bottles, collects the data and summarizes it.

Sinner receives data after it has been fully collected and summarized before drawing any conclusions from it.

This testing procedure is designed to negate Placebo and Rosenthal effects.

 

[CROWLER]

Here's a hypothetical example of a double blind study:

Sinner is doing a double blind study of post cycle support.

He gives 10 bottles of PCS and 10 identical-looking bottles of Capped Flour (placebo) to CROWLER. Crowler distributes the bottles, collects the data and summarizes it.

Sinner receives data after it has been fully collected and summarized before drawing any conclusions from it.

This testing procedure is designed to negate Placebo and Rosenthal effects.

Gotcha. So how do you tell the different items, something such as Capsule color?


CROWLER

 

[EasyEJL]

you label each bottle with a random number, and in house you keep track of what numbers are real product, and which placebo. could use letters, whatever

 

[thesinner]

Gotcha. So how do you tell the different items, something such as Capsule color?


CROWLER

The point behind a double blind study is that the researchers and the testers cannot know who received placebo and who received the "real deal" because their opinions may skew the results. Only a third (outside) party can know which is which. (I used crowler as the third party in my previous example).

I'd say the easiest thing to do for a double blind would be to give X bottles of PCS, X placebo, and a magic marker to a friend. Have him assign each bottle a number (1-X) and note which #'s are placebo and which ones are real on a notecard.

He then gives the bottles back to you, and keeps the notecard in a safe place. NO ONE MAY LOOK AT THE NOTECARD.

After all the testers are done and all the findings have been tabulated, your friend gives you the notecard to see which ones were placebo and which ones were PCS.

 

[thebigt]

The point behind a double blind study is that the researchers and the testers cannot know who received placebo and who received the "real deal" because their opinions may skew the results. Only a third (outside) party can know which is which. (I used crowler as the third party in my previous example).

I'd say the easiest thing to do for a double blind would be to give X bottles of PCS, X placebo, and a magic marker to a friend. Have him assign each bottle a number (1-X) and note which #'s are placebo and which ones are real on a notecard.

He then gives the bottles back to you, and keeps the notecard in a safe place. NO ONE MAY LOOK AT THE NOTECARD.

After all the testers are done and all the findings have been tabulated, your friend gives you the notecard to see which ones were placebo and which ones were PCS.

possible problem with that, if you tell testers up front some of the bottles are bogus you might get anti-placebo effect. if you dont tell them up front you might loose some credibility. its a catch 22. possible solution is paid volunteers outside of forums, maybe $50 for testing it. im sure university's and labs do it all the time.