Acetyl L-Carnitine (Alcar) and the Anarchy Stack...post in here! - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 10

Acetyl L-Carnitine (Alcar) and the Anarchy Stack...post in here!

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  1. apessino's Avatar
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    Originally posted by motleybreu
    and yeah 2mg of biotin which i will soon be increasing the dosage of..i have the stuff i take in my records and copy/paste when people ask for it and i mistyped it...i'm human, sue me
    Good to hear you are human.. thanks for the reply!

    A=

  2. pinoy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by belbs75
    Hey bro where did you get your 1 from?

    Anyways i started my stack this morning. 500mg Alcar, 200mg R-ala, 2mg Biotin and im on my 2nd cup of the most bitter green tea...
    got my alcar from BAC, i also got their premium green tea extract...worst tasting stuff evar!!1!!
  3. motleybreu's Avatar
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    alcar powder too? that stuff is pretty bitter..
    •   
       

  4. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Alcar powder is fine, well you get used to it. But BAC's 4x green tea extract is pretty bad, as is their rodiola. Like Wojo said, they are the best one stop shop for all the ingredients, however I do like my r-ala in pill form as measuring the r-ala powder is a big pain in the ass. So I had to support WW and the boys and grabbed some R from them along with the great deal on the Opti protein.
  5. pinoy's Avatar
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    scottyo, how do you take this green tea stuff? it tastes so horrible. what i do is put some water in my mouth, then dump the green tea and swallow. then i chug some more water. it does help a little bit
  6. belbs75's Avatar
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    with the Alcar, why is it more expensive in some places than the other? E.g 1fast400 has it for $11 for 75g, then proteincustomizer has it for like $170 for a pound.. And other places have it even more expensive than that. Is there a difference in the powder or is it all the same?
  7. windwords7's Avatar
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    All you had to do was buy a precapped version.....LOL! I dont care what you guys say, capping your self or taking raws is not worth the few dollars saved!
  8. NPursuit's Avatar
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    WW7
    I posted this @ bb.com but since you may be staying away from there I figured I should post it here.

    You know I have been following this from the start @ AM. I want to start this ASAP but all these dosages are being tossed around. From the stack simplified thread

    In a nutshell

    ALA=1.8-3.6gs/day

    ALCAR=1.5-5gs/day

    Green Tea=2-4gs/day

    Biotin=1 pill/day

    Now that's a pretty wide range and I understand the reasons behind it. My question is under optimal results meaning no upset stomach no sides what should the daily dosages be? I want to start at that and assess the effects and adjust the dosages accordingly.

    Thanks in advance!
  9. windwords7's Avatar
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    Im over there everyday Pursuit. But no one can tell you what dosages are going to work or not and not give you sides. Just start out at middle range and go up or down from there bro.
  10. dito's Avatar
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    Originally posted by windwords7
    All you had to do was buy a precapped version.....LOL! I dont care what you guys say, capping your self or taking raws is not worth the few dollars saved!
    This is true for most powders. There are some exceptions though.
  11. windwords7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dito


    This is true for most powders. There are some exceptions though.
    Yeah I agree.

    Scottyo, thanks for the support bro! All you bro's who have been buying from us, thanks a million.
  12. dito's Avatar
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    Im going to be getting my cycle from you guys whenever that may be. So am I the only one asking for the GT you can drink?
  13. NPursuit's Avatar
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    Originally posted by windwords7
    Im over there everyday Pursuit. But no one can tell you what dosages are going to work or not and not give you sides. Just start out at middle range and go up or down from there bro.
     

    I understand no on can tell me what dosages are going to work on not give me sides.  I'm saying if one were to pick optimal dosages without considering possible side effects what would they be, but you answered my question.  Thanks!
  14. NPursuit's Avatar
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    It appears by the top sellers most people are going with R-ALA over the ALA. What's the dosage range for the R-ALA. Forgive me if this has been said in the past. I can't remember everything in all of these threads.
  15. windwords7's Avatar
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    200mg per meal on the R-ala for most
  16. NPursuit's Avatar
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    Just ordered! Someone is getting rich off of this =)
  17. windwords7's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NPursuit
    Just ordered! Someone is getting rich off of this =)
    I wish bro! But seriously, thank to all of you for your support!
  18. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Yep...like WW said, 200mg per meal, at least 3 times a day I would say. NPursuit, the stack veries for different people, and while in most cases more of each component is better, the increased efficacy to price puts the avgs you mentioned at about the optimal doses. Some people will go with ALCAR at about a gram a day. Brook on animal's went up to 5 grams a day. I love at at somewhere between 1.5-2.5 grams but have rarely gone over. The GT seems to have no limit as to maximum, so the more the better. To some degree CLA appears the same, although it does interfere with EFA absorption and can cause stomache and intestinal issues.

    As for the taste of the green tea extract. I just grin and bear it. Maybe try washing it down with lemon juice or vinegar. Hell either one of those will cut any taste. Plus one is a diuretic while the other acts on glucose disposal.
  19. NPursuit's Avatar
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    I'm going to start @
    ALCAR=500mgs 3x/day
    R-ALA=200mgs 3x/day
    GT=600mg 3x/day

    The Biotin I'm not sure what to go with. I know it has been suggested probably by both WW7 & Scotty 2mg 3-4x/day but the caps are 5mg. How would 5mg 2x/day be?
  20. Stroyer's Avatar
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    ALCar @ 6gr


    I have upped my ALCar to 6gr/day and LOVE IT, I have endless energy, and my concentration is threw the roof.

    3gr soon as waking and then 3gr again early afternoon.

    Stroyer
  21. wojo's Avatar
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    very kool stroyer..always wondered bout taking it only 2x a day..was gonna up my alcar to 6 myself monday once i start up again..going with just r-ala and alcar for this stack myself..there the only ones with no iffy science behiond them imo..just solid evidence.
    funny thing a few years ago i was using a product called cytodyne(it was made of course by cytodyne) this was a good 5 years ago ,heard everyone raving bout it in prosource magazine..well i tried it and loved it looked at the ingredients and couldnt figure out what was making it work so well..figured it was a placebo and stopped after 4 weeks and never took it again..well i just looked at the label again and guess what the man ingredient was..alcr..1300mgs worth..just a little irony for me ..damn newbie i was..lol
  22. weissmuller's Avatar
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    Carb Depletion on Stack


    I've been running this stack for about 3 weeks without CLA and just in the last two weeks added it and noticed something.  I became incredibly carb depleted.  I had been cutting on a TKD style diet with fairly large post workout meal(s) and had already dropped a pretty good deal of glycogen and water along with fat in 6 weeks (170 to 156).  After adding CLA the fat loss continued but I was getting very flat.  I had planned a pretty large carb up for the 16-19 and on Wednesday I weighed about 151.  I took about 300 g of carbs throughout the day keeping protein and fat about the same.  Next morning I weighed in at 151 again.  Well I attributed it to water fluctuation and such, but was still pretty surprised that it was exactly the same.  Took another 300g through out Thursday and this morning weighed in at 151 again.

    I couldn't believe this, I had always carbed up well after being depleted and I have never been this depleted before.  The only thing I can think of is that CLA is stabilizing blood sugar levels so well that I can't get any insulin to drive the carbs into my muscles.  So today I dropped the CLA (was taking 10 grams of 70% NOW CLA) and will see how things go.  Noticed quite a difference after my first meal were I normally take a dose of CLA, felt mildly hypo for a few minutes and then felt a little hot for an hour or so.

    Anyone have any input to this situation?  I'd like to hear if anyone had experienced similar.
  23. Stroyer's Avatar
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    My exact stack


    Here is a rundown of my exact modified stack:

    ALA: 5-600mg 3 x day 5-10min before meals
    OR
    RALA: 2-300mg 3 x day 5-10 min before meals

    ALCar: 6gr day over 2 doses soon as awaken and again early afternoon (on empty stomach)
    Creatine: 5gr day (at just 5gr day I get the benefits of creatine without the water retention it can cause)
    Glutamine: 5-10gr at bedtime
    Multivitamin/mineral: 1 in a.m. and 1 in p.m. with meals
    Dymetadrine extreme: 1-5 caps day
    Biotin 1-2mg 3 x day with meals
    Protein shakes as needed

    I can honestly say, I am getting very noticably leaner fast, it is even suprising myself somewhat at the results.

    I was using higher amounts of ala or rala, but I ran low, so decreased the doses to the above ones, and I noticed a huge difference in the amoutn of h20 the ala was making me hold, at higher doses than above ala & rala makes me hold alot of water it seems, but at the doses above, I get all the positive effects of the ala or rala without near as much h20 retention.
  24. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Great posts there Stroyer and Weiss. I too have noticed decreased h20 retention with lower ala dosing. Also, the r seems to retain less then the racemic mix to some degree.
  25. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    I'm wondering about biotin. Some vitamins become toxic when TOO MUCH is taken. Is this one of those, does anyone know for sure that the excess gets readily eliminated?
  26. Stroyer's Avatar
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    Biotin


    Thats why I take somewhat lower amounts than some recommend.

    When using ala or rala by itself, without additional biotin, I get joint aches and pains pretty bad, but just at the dose of biotin I listed above, works plenty for me.

    Also, seemed as though when I did try higher amounts of biotin, my skin seemed to get much oilier and be prone to break outs more...that could be just me though.

    Originally posted by LunaHotel
    I'm wondering about biotin. Some vitamins become toxic when TOO MUCH is taken. Is this one of those, does anyone know for sure that the excess gets readily eliminated?
  27. Stroyer's Avatar
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    Also


    Also ALCar amplifies the effectiveness of any e/c/a supp.

    Dymetadrine extreme is about the only otc e/c/a that gives me a boost by iteslf, 6gr ALCar/day + Dymetadrine extreme and I am so wired I feel like I'm rollin...
  28. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    Dude I know what you mean. I used to take so mucking fuch ECA that at some point it would give me an undescribable high... and actually make me SLEEPY... KINDA... with my balance all screwed up... When I would stay put for more than a half hour, the world would feel "tilted" on me... lol

    For sure, with the amounts of ECA and alcar you're taking, you must be melting... Are you losing like 5lb a week?

    BTW the RDA for biotin is like 50mcg a day... 1mg is already 20x the dose...........!!
  29. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    Dunno if this has been posted already or not... About CLA


    Conjugated linoleic acid supplementation reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and develops lipodystrophy in mice.

    Tsuboyama-Kasaoka N, Takahashi M, Tanemura K, Kim HJ, Tange T, Okuyama H, Kasai M, Ikemoto S, Ezaki O.

    Division of Clinical Nutrition, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, Tokyo, Japan.

    Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a naturally occurring group of dienoic derivatives of linoleic acid found in beef and dairy products. CLA has been reported to reduce body fat. To examine the mechanism(s) of CLA reduction of fat mass, female C57BL/6J mice were fed standard semipurified diets (10% fat of total energy) with or without CLA (1% wt/wt). Terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated dUTP-biotin nick endlabeling (TUNEL) and DNA fragmentation analysis revealed that fat-mass decrease by CLA was mainly due to apoptosis. Tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha and uncoupling protein (UCP)-2 mRNA levels increased 12- and 6-fold, respectively, in isolated adipocytes from CLA-fed mice compared with control mice. Because it is known that TNF-alpha induces apoptosis of adipocytes and upregulates UCP2 mRNA, a marked increase of TNF-alpha mRNA with an increase of UCP2 in adipocytes caused CLA-induced apoptosis. However, with a decrease of fat mass, CLA supplementation resulted in a state resembling lipoatrophic diabetes: ablation of brown adipose tissue, a marked reduction of white adipose tissue, marked hepatomegaly, and marked insulin resistance. CLA supplementation decreased blood leptin levels, but continuous leptin infusion reversed hyperinsulinemia, indicating that leptin depletion contributes to the development of insulin resistance. These results demonstrate that intake of CLA reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and results in lipodystrophy, but hyperinsulinemia by CLA can be normalized by leptin administration.

    PMID: 10969838 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
  30. Stroyer's Avatar
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    Yes


    I took my ALCar and e/c/a several hours ago, trained chest/tri/ab and I am still buggin out...lol....otc alternative for rollin...lol...ALCar + e/c/a.

    I can not believe how lean how fast I am getting, its giving me hella motivation to train even harder and eat even better, I love it.

    Maybe I will drop my biotin down to 3mg day, the main reason for adding in biotin is when taking ala or rala, as both deplete cellular levels of biotin within the body..

    BUT some people advise taking biotin at the same time as ala, would that not be a waste, if ala depletes biotin and you take together, would that not, just eat up the biotin anyway, so I take my biotin away from my ala, but with meals.



    Originally posted by LunaHotel
    Dude I know what you mean. I used to take so mucking fuch ECA that at some point it would give me an undescribable high... and actually make me SLEEPY... KINDA... with my balance all screwed up... When I would stay put for more than a half hour, the world would feel "tilted" on me... lol

    For sure, with the amounts of ECA and alcar you're taking, you must be melting... Are you losing like 5lb a week?

    BTW the RDA for biotin is like 50mcg a day... 1mg is already 20x the dose...........!!
  31. sawastea's Avatar
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    To my understanding, you shouldn't be taking R-ALA if you're not consuming carbs. If that's the case, is it okay to omit/skip a dose on non carb meals (i.e. tuna and chicken)?
  32. ex_banana-eater's Avatar
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    Do you guys know of any studies where it shows alpha lipoic acid to actually help with muscle glucose uptake in insulin sensitive people or rats?
  33. ex_banana-eater's Avatar
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    Effects of exercise training and antioxidant R-ALA on glucose transport in insulin-sensitive rat skeletal muscle.

    Saengsirisuwan V, Perez FR, Kinnick TR, Henriksen EJ.

    Muscle Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Physiology, University of Arizona, College of Medicine, Tucson, Arizona 85721-0093, USA.

    We have recently demonstrated (Saengsirisuwan V, Kinnick TR, Schmit MB, and Henriksen EJ, J Appl Physiol 91: 145-153, 2001) that exercise training (ET) and the antioxidant R-(+)-alpha-lipoic acid (R-ALA) interact in an additive fashion to improve insulin action in insulin-resistant obese Zucker (fa/fa) rats. The purpose of the present study was to assess the interactions of ET and R-ALA on insulin action and oxidative stress in a model of normal insulin sensitivity, the lean Zucker (fa/-) rat. For 6 wk, animals either remained sedentary, received R-ALA (30 mg. kg body wt(-1). day(-1)), performed ET (treadmill running), or underwent both R-ALA treatment and ET. ET alone or in combination with R-ALA significantly increased (P < 0.05) peak oxygen consumption (28-31%) and maximum run time (52-63%). During an oral glucose tolerance test, ET alone or in combination with R-ALA resulted in a significant lowering of the glucose response (17-36%) at 15 min relative to R-ALA alone and of the insulin response (19-36%) at 15 min compared with sedentary controls. Insulin-mediated glucose transport activity was increased by ET alone in isolated epitrochlearis (30%) and soleus (50%) muscles, and this was associated with increased GLUT-4 protein levels. Insulin action was not improved by R-ALA alone, and ET-associated improvements in these variables were not further enhanced with combined ET and R-ALA. Although ET and R-ALA caused reductions in soleus protein carbonyls (an index of oxidative stress), these alterations were not significantly correlated with insulin-mediated soleus glucose transport. These results indicate that the beneficial interactive effects of ET and R-ALA on skeletal muscle insulin action observed previously in insulin-resistant obese Zucker rats are not apparent in insulin-sensitive lean Zucker rats.
  34. Stroyer's Avatar
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    ALA or RALA


    Both ALA & RALA are very good antioxidants as well, just another reason to supplement with them.

    Originally posted by sawastea
    To my understanding, you shouldn't be taking R-ALA if you're not consuming carbs. If that's the case, is it okay to omit/skip a dose on non carb meals (i.e. tuna and chicken)?
  35. cashiertan's Avatar
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    what about stacking Guggulsterones wif the anarchy stack. do u think it will work well too?
  36. motleybreu's Avatar
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    Re: ALA or RALA


    Originally posted by Stroyer
    Both ALA &amp; RALA are very good antioxidants as well, just another reason to supplement with them.
    Yes but to my understanding i wouldn't take them without carbs. It's good for an antioxidant purpose, but not for the purpose of the stack. ALA and R-ALA are most productive when taken with carbs. You have plenty of meals with carbs in your day. When having carbs, take the ALA/R-ALA. You're killing two birds with one stone.
  37. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sawastea
    To my understanding, you shouldn't be taking R-ALA if you're not consuming carbs. If that's the case, is it okay to omit/skip a dose on non carb meals (i.e. tuna and chicken)?
    Reread what I wrote earlier bro. R-ala can be taken without carbs but at certain dosing can cause symptoms of hypoglycemia. 200mg usually wont have this affect, and being a good antiox its fine to take without carbs, but for cost effective/efficacy ratio the best times to take it are with carb filled meals. 600-800mg is enough per day but more will elicit better results.


    Ex-banana....there are a lot of other studies that contradict that one, although most of us have stumbled upon it as well. Even Par and Spook, long opponents to ALA have since changed their mind.
  38. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Also for Luna and those others worried about Biotin overdose. There are many studies that show positive effects of Biotin supplementation exceeding 15mg a day, so I think you should be fine. Just check pubmed. Also, as it is a B vitamin it is water soluble (like Vite C), and any extra biotin will simply be excreted out of your system.
  39. LunaHotel's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info about biotin excretion, Scottyo, that was very important to me. I'mma up the biotin dosage dramaticaly now. Was taking 1.5 mg a day, going to 3mg.

    I started another thread about a specific question about the nutrient partitioning properties of ALA but now I realize it should go here. Here I quote a post from the first page of this thread :

    Originally posted by windwords7
    This is from Animals site:

    Mechanisms via how you can manipulate nutrient partitioning....i.e. Insulin levels/Blood Glucose levels.

    a)Non-insulin mediated glucose partitioning(Or if you prefer disposal). These types of supplements(For example R-ALA and Acetyl-L-Carnitine) work INDEPENDENT of insulin. They have little effect on its release or degradation in the bloodstream. What they do, is increase translocation of intra-cellular Glut-4ís(Glucose Transporters) to the outside of the cellular membrane albeit in the adipocytes(fat cells) and miocytes(muscle cells). The net result, is that more glucose is diverted to the miocytes, and less to the adipocytes. In hypocaloric diets, this means, more fat-loss, and better muscle preservation. In hypercaloric diets, this means more muscle gain, and less fat gain.
    b) Insulin mediated glucose partitioning(or disposal). These types of supplements actually influence AA transport b/c they work through insulin signalling pathways. CLA is a good example. CLA works by increasing AA and glucose transport into the muscle cells via insulin stimulated pathways, and therefore in hypocaloric diets acts as an anti-catabolic. CLA also keeps blood glucose levels more stable. In essence preventing preventing high blood glucose or hypoglycaemia after a carb meal.
    c)Non-stimulating thermogenics. GLA. In order to explain a bit how GLA works, I will briefly explain what prostaglandins are.
    (...)BLAH(...)
    OK so this guy on "animal" board says that ALA sends more glucose to myocites (or all lean tissue?) than to Adipocytes. Great. I looked up "Alpha lipoic acid partitioning" on PubMed and found, well, ZIP.

    So I just want to know the lowdown on this. Am I searching wrong? Does anyone have a research report on this? This guy's explanation doesn't seem very clear : What they do, is increase translocation of intra-cellular Glut-4ís(Glucose Transporters) to the outside of the cellular membrane albeit in the adipocytes(fat cells) and miocytes(muscle cells). HUH? That literally means that this will send more glucose to the myocytes and adipocytes... But not to the other types of cells???

    So anyways, whatever he MEANS, I think there is a lot of room for interpretation in there, so some science would really clarify things for me. Sorry if I seem picky, I just like to have all my angles checked.

    Oh, and one other thing : I seem to be very insulin-sensitive (or very glucose-sensitive), meaning that taking too much carbs sends me into hypoglycemia easily. Well, just to experiment, yesterday I took 600mg ALA with a fairly low-carb meal (maybe 25g fructose) and sure enough, it WHACKED me down, nearly knocking me out for like 3 hours. Sheesh.

    Cheers! And thanks.
  40. Scottyo's Avatar
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    The glucose disposal properties are hotly debated. Some people still claim that it does not affect glucose transport to the muscles, as Ex-banana eater showed in one study, while others see that it does. It gets even more confusing when one considers how the glucose is transported, either by insuligenic means or non-insulinigenic. Spook on AL claims it is only possible through insulin induced channels, while Fonz from Elite (the post you mentioned) and others believe otherwise. To tell you the truth, Im not sure if anyone has established a definitive answer, but I do believe regardless that it DOES affect glucose transport. The hypo type symptoms plus the muscle fullness are enough proof for me.

    With that all said, we are ignoring the bigger picture. Regardless of its glucose disposal properties, ALA is included with the ALCAR for 2 main reasons. First, they work synergestically off each other, requiring lower dose/greater results. Secondly, as has been stated, ALA is a very potent antioxidant that is both water and fat soluble especially in the mitochondria of the cell, where pro-ox effects caused by ALCAR can be contained and controlled.
  

  
 

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