Primordial Performance + FDA Raid!

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    I have no dog in this hunt. I've used their products and there were also some aspects of the raid that were strange.

    But make no mistake - FDA and EPA regulate, confiscate, enforce, fine, etc without leaving any public ginger bread trail.

    Non-restricted/non-registered products are the worst. They leave a gray and make up rules and violations as they see fit. People are put out of business constantly and for various reasons, and very few are just. At least with a registered/regulated product they (the business) have a leg to stand on - because it was once approved.

    Registered products are a difficult game too. Most registered products are broken into categories that are governed behind the scenes by Task Forces. Almost every Task Force is head by a corporation that has or had patents in the category. They approve, deny, regulate, fine, etc registrants in the category. Most of this is not public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Hefe View Post
    I have no dog in this hunt. I've used their products and there were also some aspects of the raid that were strange.

    But make no mistake - FDA and EPA regulate, confiscate, enforce, fine, etc without leaving any public ginger bread trail.

    Non-restricted/non-registered products are the worst. They leave a gray and make up rules and violations as they see fit. People are put out of business constantly and for various reasons, and very few are just. At least with a registered/regulated product they (the business) have a leg to stand on - because it was once approved.

    Registered products are a difficult game too. Most registered products are broken into categories that are governed behind the scenes by Task Forces. Almost every Task Force is head by a corporation that has or had patents in the category. They approve, deny, regulate, fine, etc registrants in the category. Most of this is not public.
    Very good post. But I am sure all of this will change with a "Dear Mr. FDA, Me and some bros on a bodybuilding board were debating...." email.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy
    Very good post. But I am sure all of this will change with a "Dear Mr. FDA, Me and some bros on a bodybuilding board were debating...." email.
    Dang, how'd you know? That's exactly how it starts out!

    But I wonder if they'll even responed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Dang, how'd you know? That's exactly how it starts out!

    But I wonder if they'll even responed.
    Ok Jbry, knowing what I know about "DA's" from my various work gigs with them over the years, I will tell you that the chances are slim. Especially if the case is open, as I believe is the protocol. There is also this little rule of non disclosure, so unless this is on the public record, you or anyone for that matter may not have access. Just thinking out loud.

    So I am just going to continue to read peacefully, though from my experience with HTS, he is one of the most legit lads around here, and I would take his word if he told me so, just like I would listen to a lot of lads on the SNS side, some like Celly who are buddies.
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    Re: Primordial Performance + FDA Raid!


    Question, how do you know

    Quote Originally Posted by El Hefe View Post
    They leave a gray and make up rules and violations as they see fit. People are put out of business constantly and for various reasons, and very few are just.
    If


    Quote Originally Posted by El Hefe View Post
    But make no mistake - FDA and EPA regulate, confiscate, enforce, fine, etc without leaving any public ginger bread trail.
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    this thread better get better or I want my time back..
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh
    Question, how do you know

    If

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S(TM)II using Tapatalk 2
    I know because my company has created and sold many products that have fallen into these categories. I've personally been on the wrong end of this. I can also tell you that none of the instances had anything to do with health or public safety. In our case, it was because we had taken too much market share from someone who had more power and bigger pockets.

    Just to be clear, none of our products are or were health or dietary supplements. But it's the same game and regulatory bodies.

    I also personally know people who have been on or are currently on some of the Task Forces. Those of us who have dealt with them don't refer to them as Task Forces - we call them Cartels.
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    Excellent thread to read while depositing a big one in the porcelain bank of trust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Question, how do you know



    If




    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2
    Nice argument. My memory goes back to American Cellular Labs when they created the first pro-dienolone product on the market. FDA raided them in April of 2009, then accused them of lacing their Tren-Xtreme with Trenbolone, which was a flat out lie. If the FDA called it for what it was, then there would not have been any laws broken because pro-dienolone was not banned, yet it was still effective and potentially dangerous when used irresponsibly.

    So the FDA called it Tren, as well as busting them out for creating Pheraplex, which was also not a controlled substance at the time either. They called the compounds by whatever they had to "to make it illegal". The feds are dirty, man. They don't serve the public innocently and justly like you want to believe. They want our money, thats it. They are no different from any other corrupt organization out there. Fact is, while ACL might've been unethical in their practices creating fairly powerful steroids for OTC use, they didn't actually break any laws but the Feds are able to get away with crap like this because we aren't really able to stop them anymore if we wanted to.

    They don't send letters to anyone giving them warnings because that means no fines! FDA wants fines, not law-abiding citizens. Even if we all started abiding by the current laws, they'd create more laws to make it harder to live with so that more fines could be found. Otherwise the need for that government agency would disappear or at least be downsized, which none of the FDA employees want. This same logic also applies to all of the government agencies. They have become altogether wortheless yet because they desire the money, they find ways to keep existing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    They don't send letters to anyone giving them warnings because that means no fines! FDA wants fines, not law-abiding citizens..
    this is quite absurd stance, and of course carries the air of one crying "conspiracy!" again

    of course the FDA has issues, and may be involved in issues that it really has no worthwhile time/business being involved with..to say they are a flat-out corrupt organization is ludicrous

    as for no warning letters sent out as you claim:
    uhhh, i think it was not too long ago that one of the biggest "busts" in the industry went down, bodybuilding (dot) com, pertaining to illegal product being sold
    this raid was AFTER repeated letters sent to bb.com and DeLuca to cease and desist (which they ignored)

    i could care less what you believe, but again all this conspiratorial nonsense...WOW
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    Re: Primordial Performance + FDA Raid!


    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Nice argument. My memory goes back to American Cellular Labs when they created the first pro-dienolone product on the market. FDA raided them in April of 2009, then accused them of lacing their Tren-Xtreme with Trenbolone, which was a flat out lie. If the FDA called it for what it was, then there would not have been any laws broken because pro-dienolone was not banned, yet it was still effective and potentially dangerous when used irresponsibly.

    So the FDA called it Tren, as well as busting them out for creating Pheraplex, which was also not a controlled substance at the time either. They called the compounds by whatever they had to "to make it illegal". The feds are dirty, man. They don't serve the public innocently and justly like you want to believe. They want our money, thats it. They are no different from any other corrupt organization out there. Fact is, while ACL might've been unethical in their practices creating fairly powerful steroids for OTC use, they didn't actually break any laws but the Feds are able to get away with crap like this because we aren't really able to stop them anymore if we wanted to.

    They don't send letters to anyone giving them warnings because that means no fines! FDA wants fines, not law-abiding citizens. Even if we all started abiding by the current laws, they'd create more laws to make it harder to live with so that more fines could be found. Otherwise the need for that government agency would disappear or at least be downsized, which none of the FDA employees want. This same logic also applies to all of the government agencies. They have become altogether wortheless yet because they desire the money, they find ways to keep existing.
    Designer steroids have always been illegal. It does not have to be on a banned list or controlled substance list to make it illegal. If it is not a naturally occurring substance than it is not DSHEA compliant and therefore illegal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Designer steroids have always been illegal. It does not have to be on a banned list or controlled substance list to make it illegal. If it is not a naturally occurring substance than it is not DSHEA compliant and therefore illegal.
    oh yeah - there's that too
    got sidetracked by the other ludicrous content in that post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invycktus

    Ok Jbry, knowing what I know about "DA's" from my various work gigs with them over the years, I will tell you that the chances are slim. Especially if the case is open, as I believe is the protocol. There is also this little rule of non disclosure, so unless this is on the public record, you or anyone for that matter may not have access. Just thinking out loud.

    So I am just going to continue to read peacefully, though from my experience with HTS, he is one of the most legit lads around here, and I would take his word if he told me so, just like I would listen to a lot of lads on the SNS side, some like Celly who are buddies.
    Huh, interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    makes me wonder why I don't post here anymore.


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    He's an attention whore. Always has been, always will be.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    My conversation here is also with those involved whom I know, I don't know you, don't personally want to know you, so I don't really need to address you. If you haven't noticed, you can move on.

    Your comment on price, however, is funny. I could add up every product SNS offers and run it for the 4 weeks stacked, and the results wouldn't compare to Andro-, yet the cost would exceed it.
    .
    lol hts, getting a little crunchy in your old age
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post

    Huh, interesting.
    Just sharing my experience if consulting with Dept Agencies over the last8 yrs due to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballesteri View Post
    lol hts, getting a little crunchy in your old age
    i like crunchy

    better than soggy
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    i like crunchy

    better than soggy
    very true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballesteri View Post
    lol hts, getting a little crunchy in your old age
    I no longer have to be one of the faces of a company now, so I don't have to hold back, haha. The two BB companies I am affiliated with now are a bit easier in that regard, BoardAdmin @ PHF is even more direct than I am, and the other company I own, and we don't sell products.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy

    I no longer have to be one of the faces of a company now, so I don't have to hold back, haha. The two BB companies I am affiliated with now are a bit easier in that regard, BoardAdmin @ PHF is even more direct than I am, and the other company I own, and we don't sell products.
    So you mean you can talk out your a$$ now like I do eh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    So you mean you can talk out your a$$ now like I do eh?
    No, I can be an ass....talking out of your ass is your territory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    I no longer have to be one of the faces of a company now, so I don't have to hold back, haha. The two BB companies I am affiliated with now are a bit easier in that regard, BoardAdmin @ PHF is even more direct than I am, and the other company I own, and we don't sell products.
    lol...better to burn out than fade away!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Designer steroids have always been illegal. It does not have to be on a banned list or controlled substance list to make it illegal. If it is not a naturally occurring substance than it is not DSHEA compliant and therefore illegal.


    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2

    Then explain why there are still designers that have passed the test of time with the FDA, while others have not? H-drol, Dienolone currently is floating around without resistance..trying to understand how that assumption holds up when time after time companies redesign the compounds to be something new and unlisted...


    But lets get serious..the real reason they were banned was not because the FDA really had grounds to say, " your product is illegal"..in fact, designer steroids aren't illegal until the FDA tests them, proves they are steroids and then puts them on the banned list. How am I sure of this? Because the Oregon senator has this law changed some years ago to encourage more companies to start up in Oregon, conveniently located on the West coast (nearest China). The law states that the FDA cannot test any substance BEFORE going to the market with it. The substance can later be checked after being put into production and can later be deemed unsafe and therefore removed, but not before. Notice PP's company was based in Oregon...

    The FDA sent this letter http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/Enforcement.../ucm173874.htm to ACL which actually claims the problem was in the labeling, not the substance. Learn something new every day I guess.

    According to this letter, had ACL just added a dietary supplement to the mix, they could have gotten away with it. This is also why we usually see companies combining all sorts of other dietary compounds to the designers in effort to avoid all this non-sense. So there you have it...

    Designer steroids aren't illegal, at least for a certain window until FDA has some grounds for pulling it off the shelf. Some of them have somehow survived all the banning movements by the FDA. Dienolone (not pro-dienolone) is one of them, hence why we still see Trenazone being sold. If they were illegal, companies wouldn't be so stupid as to market them in plain sight for the FDA to see.

    I appreciate all the condescending talk by your fan boy, too. Seems like no one else is allowed to have a correct or accurate perspective on this board if it disagrees with certain people.

    And just to add to it, the FDA also deshelved the estrogen-blocker from ACL as well. Yet, we know it wasn't an illegal compound because IT IS STILL LEGAL. It's called Formestane! They got these guys due to misleading or inaccurate labeling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    this is quite absurd stance, and of course carries the air of one crying "conspiracy!" again

    of course the FDA has issues, and may be involved in issues that it really has no worthwhile time/business being involved with..to say they are a flat-out corrupt organization is ludicrous

    as for no warning letters sent out as you claim:
    uhhh, i think it was not too long ago that one of the biggest "busts" in the industry went down, bodybuilding (dot) com, pertaining to illegal product being sold
    this raid was AFTER repeated letters sent to bb.com and DeLuca to cease and desist (which they ignored)

    i could care less what you believe, but again all this conspiratorial nonsense...WOW
    So condescending. Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Then explain why there are still designers that have passed the test of time with the FDA, while others have not? H-drol, Dienolone currently is floating around without resistance..trying to understand how that assumption holds up when time after time companies redesign the compounds to be something new and unlisted...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control...cement_of_1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    So condescending. Thanks!
    huh, interesting
    i correct your mistaken attempts at factual relevancy, and you say i am condescending?
    okay..

    i will no longer attempt to edify you in your erroneous posts, no worries - as i said, i could care less what you think
    highly doubt anyone with common sense bought into your synopsis anyway

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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    this is quite absurd stance, and of course carries the air of one crying "conspiracy!" again

    of course the FDA has issues, and may be involved in issues that it really has no worthwhile time/business being involved with..to say they are a flat-out corrupt organization is ludicrous

    as for no warning letters sent out as you claim:
    uhhh, i think it was not too long ago that one of the biggest "busts" in the industry went down, bodybuilding (dot) com, pertaining to illegal product being sold
    this raid was AFTER repeated letters sent to bb.com and DeLuca to cease and desist (which they ignored)

    i could care less what you believe, but again all this conspiratorial nonsense...WOW
    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    huh, interesting
    i correct your mistaken attempts at factual relevancy, and you say i am condescending?
    okay..

    i will no longer attempt to edify you in your erroneous posts, no worries - as i said, i could care less what you think
    highly doubt anyone with common sense bought into your synopsis anyway

    best to you
    In bold, as it was written. Just ask yourself this quesiton. I f I had responded to you in that fashion, regardless of the relevancy or accuracy of your post, how would you have responded? Don't be a liar and tell me something like, "oh I would've been ok with it. I would've understood your point-of-view.." right..I'd be danged if you would talk to a stranger to his face like that and then turn around and wonder where the condescending talk came from.. ha

    Too many people on this board just can't be friendly at all. You brought my post down like I wasn't educated or something. Thanks. That kind of treatment to others won't take you very far in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    In bold, as it was written. Just ask yourself this quesiton. I f I had responded to you in that fashion, regardless of the relevancy or accuracy of your post, how would you have responded? Don't be a liar and tell me something like, "oh I would've been ok with it. I would've understood your point-of-view.." right..I'd be danged if you would talk to a stranger to his face like that and then turn around and wonder where the condescending talk came from.. ha

    Too many people on this board just can't be friendly at all. You brought my post down like I wasn't educated or something. Thanks. That kind of treatment to others won't take you very far in life.
    props for using 'DANGED" in a sentence!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    They don't send letters to anyone giving them warnings because that means no fines! FDA wants fines, not law-abiding citizens..
    now wait a minute..here you said they don't send out warning letters

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    now you show that they do indeed send out warning letters?
    (very nice find btw)

    I appreciate all the condescending talk by your fan boy, too. Seems like no one else is allowed to have a correct or accurate perspective on this board if it disagrees with certain people..
    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Don't be a liar


    and now that we cannot get our way and no one agrees with us, we resort to name-calling and belittling


    fun thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post

    I appreciate all the condescending talk by your fan boy, too.

    .
    was a little skeptical about this being a real word, but as it turns out... Name:  imagesCADBJB7Y.jpg
Views: 224
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    My company manufactures and distributes certain products. I have literally had products (which were registered and approved) pulled from retail shelves and confiscated without warning. My first notice was from the owners of the retail stores, not from the regulatory department. They waited for me to contact them and then kiss there ass.

    Sometimes they couldn't even give me a clear answer for their action. One time I had to change one word in a large label to have our products released (over 100k inventory). Keep in mind this was a label that this agency had already approved 2 years prior.

    Corporations controlling regulations is not new and its not conspiracy. Try to register or sell Glyphosate (which the EPA has approved) and you'll have to contact Monsanto (who heads the task Force). Try to register or sell 2,4D (which was approved in the 30's or 40's and is sold be numerous companies) and you'll have to contact Dow. These are off patent products.

    This doesn't mean that every part of these agencies are corrupt. But they all have corrupt parts.

    Call it a conspiracy if you want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Then explain why there are still designers that have passed the test of time with the FDA, while others have not? H-drol, Dienolone currently is floating around without resistance..trying to understand how that assumption holds up when time after time companies redesign the compounds to be something new and unlisted...


    But lets get serious..the real reason they were banned was not because the FDA really had grounds to say, " your product is illegal"..in fact, designer steroids aren't illegal until the FDA tests them, proves they are steroids and then puts them on the banned list. How am I sure of this? Because the Oregon senator has this law changed some years ago to encourage more companies to start up in Oregon, conveniently located on the West coast (nearest China). The law states that the FDA cannot test any substance BEFORE going to the market with it. The substance can later be checked after being put into production and can later be deemed unsafe and therefore removed, but not before. Notice PP's company was based in Oregon...

    The FDA sent this letter Americell-labs.com VMG Global Inc 7/27/09 to ACL which actually claims the problem was in the labeling, not the substance. Learn something new every day I guess.

    According to this letter, had ACL just added a dietary supplement to the mix, they could have gotten away with it. This is also why we usually see companies combining all sorts of other dietary compounds to the designers in effort to avoid all this non-sense. So there you have it...

    Designer steroids aren't illegal, at least for a certain window until FDA has some grounds for pulling it off the shelf. Some of them have somehow survived all the banning movements by the FDA. Dienolone (not pro-dienolone) is one of them, hence why we still see Trenazone being sold. If they were illegal, companies wouldn't be so stupid as to market them in plain sight for the FDA to see.

    I appreciate all the condescending talk by your fan boy, too. Seems like no one else is allowed to have a correct or accurate perspective on this board if it disagrees with certain people.

    And just to add to it, the FDA also deshelved the estrogen-blocker from ACL as well. Yet, we know it wasn't an illegal compound because IT IS STILL LEGAL. It's called Formestane! They got these guys due to misleading or inaccurate labeling.
    isnt PP based out of oregon? i could be wrong but i thought it was
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Hefe View Post
    This doesn't mean that every part of these agencies are corrupt. But they all have corrupt parts.
    that was intelligently stated

    it's one thing to discuss in thoughtful, intelligent manner
    quite another to take on paranoid frame of thought and compare agencies in our government to the coke dealer on the wrong side of town

    yet still -- end of the day, provides fruitless wasted time, as there will be nothing done here to change anything


    all government is doomed to fail; it has happened time and time again, thruout history
    ppl seem to forget we as a world power have only been in existence a couple hundred yrs..
    yes democracy and the US are doomed to failure in time, just as powerful nations before us have crumbled and fallen

    it is unavoidable..government of ppl just does not work, it cannot

    and all the worries we got, as a country, and you're worried about supplements? really?
    god forbid they ever pass that law banning ALL otc supplements..i think that one is a lot closer than many of you realize


    but you want to sit around and bitch about it? does it make you feel better?

    simply wasteful, imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    that was intelligently stated

    it's one thing to discuss in thoughtful, intelligent manner
    quite another to take on paranoid frame of thought and compare agencies in our government to the coke dealer on the wrong side of town

    yet still -- end of the day, provides fruitless wasted time, as there will be nothing done here to change anything


    all government is doomed to fail; it has happened time and time again, thruout history
    ppl seem to forget we as a world power have only been in existence a couple hundred yrs..
    yes democracy and the US are doomed to failure in time, just as powerful nations before us have crumbled and fallen

    it is unavoidable..government of ppl just does not work, it cannot

    and all the worries we got, as a country, and you're worried about supplements? really?
    god forbid they ever pass that law banning ALL otc supplements..i think that one is a lot closer than many of you realize


    but you want to sit around and bitch about it? does it make you feel better?

    simply wasteful, imo
    That's your opinion, right? It's also their opinion that it isn't a waste of time, rather quite interesting to them, which is why they're discussing it. Some dudes think aliens are real, it's not fair to walk around kicking them all in the Dick for their interests.

    I personally have no hard feelings with anyone in this thread, quite the opposite really. Snags, I've always gotten along with you. Same goes for HTS but take it easy guys. No reason to come in belittling people for discussing (somewhat conspiracy driven) something they find interesting. Calm down, if it's such a waste of time and completely ludicrous, drive on.

    You have both already stated what happened numerous times, you've done your parts. You've both stated
    that you have since moved on and are now onto new ventures which are both going well, so let them talk. Who gives a ****? Quit letting something ruffle your tail feathers to this degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    That's your opinion, right? It's also their opinion that it isn't a waste of time, rather quite interesting to them, which is why they're discussing it. Some dudes think aliens are real, it's not fair to walk around kicking them all in the Dick for their interests.

    I personally have no hard feelings with anyone in this thread, quite the opposite really. Snags, I've always gotten along with you. Same goes for HTS but take it easy guys. No reason to come in belittling people for discussing (somewhat conspiracy driven) something they find interesting. Calm down, if it's such a waste of time and completely ludicrous, drive on.

    You have both already stated what happened numerous times, you've done your parts. You've both stated
    that you have since moved on and are now onto new ventures which are both going well, so let them talk. Who gives a ****? Quit letting something ruffle your tail feathers to this degree.

    - Valdez
    bro -

    i think you are reading things into things, that simply aren't there

    this all started with a late bump, and i was actually having fun with it even tho i found it quite silly..

    and then, misinformation started coming out (misstating the ACL situation..saying feds don't send warning letters..likening our gov agencies to cartels LOL)

    simply, erroneous - has nothing to do with opinion

    but let's talk about opinions: the .02 has been stated that FDA are crooks
    my .02 is that that .02 is ludicrous


    where, please tell me, am i belittling/condescending/fighting/or upset?



    you calm down, bro
    just chill
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    I believe in aliens.. juss saying

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    Quote Originally Posted by snagencyV2.0 View Post
    bro -

    i think you are reading things into things, that simply aren't there

    this all started with a late bump, and i was actually having fun with it even tho i found it quite silly..

    and then, misinformation started coming out (misstating the ACL situation..saying feds don't send warning letters..likening our gov agencies to cartels LOL)

    simply, erroneous - has nothing to do with opinion

    but let's talk about opinions: the .02 has been stated that FDA are crooks
    my .02 is that that .02 is ludicrous


    where, please tell me, am i belittling/condescending/fighting/or upset?



    you calm down, bro
    just chill
    Right there! Condescending!!!! You calm down first, bro...

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I believe in aliens.. juss saying

    Dick kick!

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S™II using Tapatalk 2


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    i will say, however, that i am now scared to "like" someone's post going forward..

    lest, i be called a "fanboy"

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    I actually think it is quite arrogant (or naive) of someone to dismiss the probability of aliens. Considering the elements that make up life are the most common elements in the universe, I would be surprised if there werent other life forms out there
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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