Fat Burners on a Bulk.
- 09-16-2012, 11:56 AM
Fat Burners on a Bulk.
Has anyone ever considered using fat burners on their bulks to keep fat gain at a minimum? As a general rule I keep my supps to a minimum and have never used a fat burner (I'm too skinny to need it) but I wonder if there would be any benefits to using it during an all out bulk to help keep fat gain to a minimum.
I would guess that dosing would be significantly lowered from what would be used in a cut but have never known anyone who has tried anything like that.
- 09-16-2012, 12:27 PM
09-16-2012, 12:35 PM
OP,Celorza couldnt put it any better^^
although i differ a bit in the sense of asking....
_what kind of bulk?
you keeping it a clean bulk or just a mix of clean and dirty.
While you bulk,your body will store extra of what it cant and is not using as fat.
I do believe a fat burner may help aid minimal fat gains if you keep a clean bulk.
But really when bulking expect fat.you are bulking for a reason,lol
if you ware worried about fat,then dont bulk.
thats one thing that annoys me,i wanna get bigger but want no fat,well then go a diff route then the all natural way.
09-16-2012, 12:46 PM
Supplements that help in this are: PLCAR, Na-R-Ala, ALCAR, TTA , Raspberry Ketones, and to my understanding Chlorogenic Acid can help in this too. Albeit for a Lean Bulk you would be looking at a smaller surplus and proper macro-nutrient arrangement, it is really hard to really be able to estimate your proper surplus for them since TDEE varies when gaining weight and according to the workout schedule. But the aforementioned can help a lot in that department (preventing fat gain with a small surplus).
To me honestly ECA stack is a year round (almost) staple...Mostly now because of the water-retention-prevention and cognitive effects it gives me, but it can also help in this matter too paired up with the rest of the supps mentioned here.
>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
09-16-2012, 01:07 PM
yes,ofcourse calories will not be as high.But as soon as you bulk calories go up..
lets say replace all chicken and fish with steaks and burgers and roastbeef.
add in more noodles and potatos and bread in replace for your seewt potatos and oats.Not saying to disregard sweet potatos and oats,just want to clear that up.
up fatsin stead of a grilled chikcen and veggies as a snack have pb and banana on a ww bagel.
so you can still get your macros in if you play it right..some ppl are hard gainers and seriously need 4000 cal or more a day,me i can cut well on 2 and have no prob gaining on 3-3,5....but like you said before thats more broscience and what works for me.From a scientific stand point i couldnt agree more with you.
im kind of use to stating what works for me. And due to you i Alcar is a staple in my diet.i just ordered 2 bottles of ALCAR by SNS about 3 days ago. looking into green tea soon along with RK.
as for na-r-,i just started reading about last week..allmax has it and its very affordable. As for caffeine,im not really suppose to have it,so im deciding on buying some caffeine pills,i know its a staple.
09-16-2012, 01:11 PM
Glad to know I could help, ALCAR is a godsend for me lol one day try dosing 2g before going out drinking and enjoy...You won't suffer as harsh effects from the hang over as usual.
Na-R-Ala is best (according to Coop and some readings I did) if it is Geronova Licensed , the Nutraplanet bulk one actually is and it is pretty cheap, comes with a scoop and all. RK and Green tea have many other benefits besides fat burning or adipogenesis prevention, good antioxidants and perfect general health supplements iMO. Hope you enjoy them!
>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
09-16-2012, 01:14 PM
Lol I'm in a permanent lean bulk.
It was not something I planned to try it was really just a thought that popped into my head during this car ride.
09-16-2012, 01:16 PM
I wish I could gain at 3. I'm at 3600 a day now and will roll with that for a few weeks before probably upping Cals again. Its all this stupid running on top of my own workouts.
09-16-2012, 01:26 PM
09-16-2012, 10:06 PM
I've tried using a fat burner during a bulk cause I was doing IF.
Wanted it for the appetite suppression during my fasted state. But the suppression worked to well that I couldn't eat all my calories
09-16-2012, 11:48 PM
I'm going to disagree quite a bit with the former posts here. Some fat burners are actually preferred on a bulking routine. For instance, Reduce XT prevents cortisol spikes, which helps prevent adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis. And during which phase of one's diet do the latter two processes occur with the highest predominance? Bulking.
The same can be said for forskolin, TTA, raspberry ketones, and even EC (beta agonists are plenty useful regardless of energetic state). These products create an unfavorable state for fat storage, and many are tested in individuals fed a high-fat/high-calorie diet.
09-17-2012, 09:45 AM
As far as actual product recommendations I have used with success:
Lean Extreme or Reduce XT are solid as well.
SNS TTA if you can find some (Nutra has a killer deal ATM).
and while not necessarily what people would consider a fat burner these next two should help with your intended goal as well:
Anabeta Elite (contains cortisol control and forskolin)
ArA (X-gels or X-factor)
09-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Thanks guys. That was kind of my thought process, just without all the experience and science. I have AB and ABE and really like them and have not had much trouble as far as fat goes, really my problem is weight gain in any fashion. So I'm just working on diet for now but its never too early to learn something new.
09-17-2012, 12:59 PM
09-17-2012, 01:07 PM
WAit...I did say they were useful on a lean bulk oO never said they weren't. Even mentioned the aforementioned by you coopy, just didn't mention Reduce-XT as it didn't come to mind at all haha but yeah cortisol control is great on a bulk. I guess I mean to point out to James (on my first post) that stuff that were not like the aforementioned ingredients would not work...like usual fat burners from the industry unlike the products mentioned.Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
Yet I still don't think a fat burner can do much on a dirty bulk when the caloric surplus is huge...or can they work as literally burning far when stuffing your face with even loads of dirty cals coop?
>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
09-17-2012, 04:33 PM
There's no such thing as dirty calories. Plenty of fat burners have been studied in rats fed an absurdly high fat/high calorie diet, and they do effectively reduce the damage. Most MOAs are irrespective of caloric state when it comes to stim-free fatburners that aren't affecting the thyroid.
09-17-2012, 04:35 PM
On a dirty bulk a fat burner wont like i said before,but a clean bulk,it can help big time...Originally Posted by Celorza
09-17-2012, 04:38 PM
No such thing as dirty calories..really?? Ok!Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
I have bulked before with clean and dirty calories and the outcome waa good but not,in a sense.
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM
Anti-obese action of raspberry ketone.
Morimoto C, Satoh Y, Hara M, Inoue S, Tsujita T, Okuda H.
Department of Medical Biochemistry, Ehime University School of Medicine, Shigenobu-cho, Onsen-gun, Ehime 791-0295, Japan. [email protected]
Raspberry ketone (4-(4-hydroxyphenyl) butan-2-one; RK) is a major aromatic compound of red raspberry (Rubus idaeus). The structure of RK is similar to the structures of capsaicin and synephrine, compounds known to exert anti-obese actions and alter the lipid metabolism. The present study was performed to clarify whether RK helps prevent obesity and activate lipid metabolism in rodents. To test the effect on obesity, our group designed the following in vivo experiments: 1) mice were fed a high-fat diet including 0.5, 1, or 2% of RK for 10 weeks; 2) mice were given a high-fat diet for 6 weeks and subsequently fed the same high-fat diet containing 1% RK for the next 5 weeks. RK prevented the high-fat-diet-induced elevations in body weight and the weights of the liver and visceral adipose tissues (epididymal, retroperitoneal, and mesenteric). RK also decreased these weights and hepatic triacylglycerol content after they had been increased by a high-fat diet. RK significantly increased norepinephrine-induced lipolysis associated with the translocation of hormone-sensitive lipase from the cytosol to lipid droplets in rat epididymal fat cells. In conclusion, RK prevents and improves obesity and fatty liver. These effects appear to stem from the action of RK in altering the lipid metabolism, or more specifically, in increasing norepinephrine-induced lipolysis in white adipocytes.
Olive leaf extract:
Olive leaf extract attenuates cardiac, hepatic, and metabolic changes in high carbohydrate-, high fat-fed rats.
Poudyal H, Campbell F, Brown L.
School of Biomedical Sciences; 5School of Veterinary Sciences, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, 4072, Australia.
Olive oil, an important component of the Mediterranean diet, produces cardioprotective effects, probably due to both oleic acid and the polyphenols such as oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol. Our aim in this study was to assess whether a polyphenol-enriched extract from the leaves of Olea europaea L. with oleuropein as the major component attenuated the cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic signs of a high-carbohydrate, high-fat (HCHF) diet (carbohydrate, 52%; fat, 24%, 25% fructose in drinking water) in rats. Male Wistar rats were fed either a cornstarch diet (CS) or a HCHF diet for a total of 16 wk. Diets of the treatment groups [CS+olive leaf extract (OLE) and HCHF+OLE] were supplemented with 3% OLE after 8 wk of being fed their respective CS or HCHF diets for a further 8 wk. After 16 wk, HCHF rats developed signs of metabolic syndrome, including elevated abdominal and hepatic fat deposition, collagen deposition in heart and liver, cardiac stiffness, and oxidative stress markers (plasma malondialdehyde and uric acid concentrations), with diminished aortic ring reactivity, abnormal plasma lipid profile, impaired glucose tolerance, and hypertension. Compared with HCHF rats, those in the HCHF+OLE group had improved or normalized cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic signs with the exception of elevated blood pressure. These results strongly suggest that an OLE containing polyphenols such as oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol reverses the chronic inflammation and oxidative stress that induces the cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic symptoms in this rat model of diet-induced obesity and diabetes without changing blood pressure.
And the list goes on.
This action isn't specifically referred to as lipolytic, but rather anti-obesogenic.
09-17-2012, 04:41 PM
How effective will that be if your eating 5000 cals a day and alot of it is ****..i believe while science is great,its not always perfect
09-17-2012, 04:44 PM
09-17-2012, 04:56 PM
09-17-2012, 05:00 PM
09-17-2012, 05:20 PM
Ok,so all this above is scientific proof which you state,thats great.Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
Have you gone through this personally.? More than once or twice?
Like i said before,science sounds great..But im also a firm believer that expierience is what counts.
09-17-2012, 05:23 PM
I hope you realize that science is experience-based. It takes subjects and puts them through "the experience" while minimizing confounding variables. It is thus more accurate from a "true effects vs placebo" perspective and less accurate in that the subjects are never perfect representations of you as an individual. However, given sample sizes, examination of underlying mechanisms, placebo control, and blinding, it is infinitely more valuable than the anecdotal experiences of one man using something.
09-17-2012, 05:38 PM
Currently on a lean bulk and taking oxyECA black and hyper t2, they are to be making a noticeable difference keeping me leaner while getting stronger and in caloric surplusOriginally Posted by jimbuick
09-17-2012, 07:52 PM
I personally take them to help lower fat gain on a bulk and I wash my food so my diet is never "dirty".
09-17-2012, 09:20 PM
personally? I think cardio on a bulk = retarded, and (MOST) "fat burning" supps on a bulk = waste of money. If you are doing cardio on your bulk? I suggest simply eating less....as in eating enough to gain but not so much that you add noticeable amounts of fat. Not so simple to get your exact maintenance and/or exact amount of calories needed per day for 8 weeks in order to gain ONLY muscle...but you can get a ball park figure if you know your body and monitor your daily caloric/macro intake. As far as fat burning supps on a bulk? If i spend all this money on something that will burn more calories, so that I gain only 4.2 lbs of fat instead of 5 lbs of fat...I say that equates to a waste of money. Just eat less. now something like a GDA? or anabeta? something that targets carbohydrate calories? THAT can be of use on a bulk, yes. "partitioning" nutrients () is money well spent. but cardio? or conventional metabolism raising "fat burners"? like I said, watch what you eat and cut back a few hundred or so calories a day instead....save yourself the money you'd be out buying all these fat burners and additionally the save the money you would spend on that extra few hundred calories that is making you fat.....double whammy....
09-17-2012, 09:21 PM
09-17-2012, 09:44 PM
In fact, the aforementioned compounds are what truly partition calories to muscle vs adipose. GDAs are generally non-discriminatory and are simply worthwhile as overall health aids.
I know you said "most" fat burners, and this post isn't intended to be critical, so don't take it that way . Just more info because I'm stimmed up and ambitious today
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