Fat Burners on a Bulk.

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  1. Fat Burners on a Bulk.


    Has anyone ever considered using fat burners on their bulks to keep fat gain at a minimum? As a general rule I keep my supps to a minimum and have never used a fat burner (I'm too skinny to need it) but I wonder if there would be any benefits to using it during an all out bulk to help keep fat gain to a minimum.

    I would guess that dosing would be significantly lowered from what would be used in a cut but have never known anyone who has tried anything like that.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Has anyone ever considered using fat burners on their bulks to keep fat gain at a minimum? As a general rule I keep my supps to a minimum and have never used a fat burner (I'm too skinny to need it) but I wonder if there would be any benefits to using it during an all out bulk to help keep fat gain to a minimum.

    I would guess that dosing would be significantly lowered from what would be used in a cut but have never known anyone who has tried anything like that.
    You must be new around here, Welcome to AM...Fat Burners have no impact on Bulks at all. Fat gain is determined by your net calories of the day, if the surplus is too big then you will store it as fat gains.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
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  3. OP,Celorza couldnt put it any better^^

    although i differ a bit in the sense of asking....
    _what kind of bulk?

    you keeping it a clean bulk or just a mix of clean and dirty.

    While you bulk,your body will store extra of what it cant and is not using as fat.

    I do believe a fat burner may help aid minimal fat gains if you keep a clean bulk.

    But really when bulking expect fat.you are bulking for a reason,lol

    if you ware worried about fat,then dont bulk.

    thats one thing that annoys me,i wanna get bigger but want no fat,well then go a diff route then the all natural way.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Jay888999 View Post
    OP,Celorza couldnt put it any better^^

    although i differ a bit in the sense of asking....
    _what kind of bulk?

    you keeping it a clean bulk or just a mix of clean and dirty.

    While you bulk,your body will store extra of what it cant and is not using as fat.

    I do believe a fat burner may help aid minimal fat gains if you keep a clean bulk.

    But really when bulking expect fat.you are bulking for a reason,lol

    if you ware worried about fat,then dont bulk.

    thats one thing that annoys me,i wanna get bigger but want no fat,well then go a diff route then the all natural way.
    I agree, if it is a Lean Bulk the goal might be to diminish fat gains. For that GDAs and AMPK signaling supplements can indeed help prevent Adipogenesis and Lipogenesis , yet I don't really think it would be much.

    Supplements that help in this are: PLCAR, Na-R-Ala, ALCAR, TTA , Raspberry Ketones, and to my understanding Chlorogenic Acid can help in this too. Albeit for a Lean Bulk you would be looking at a smaller surplus and proper macro-nutrient arrangement, it is really hard to really be able to estimate your proper surplus for them since TDEE varies when gaining weight and according to the workout schedule. But the aforementioned can help a lot in that department (preventing fat gain with a small surplus).

    To me honestly ECA stack is a year round (almost) staple...Mostly now because of the water-retention-prevention and cognitive effects it gives me, but it can also help in this matter too paired up with the rest of the supps mentioned here.
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  5. Great post.^^

    yes,ofcourse calories will not be as high.But as soon as you bulk calories go up..

    lets say replace all chicken and fish with steaks and burgers and roastbeef.

    add in more noodles and potatos and bread in replace for your seewt potatos and oats.Not saying to disregard sweet potatos and oats,just want to clear that up.

    up fatsin stead of a grilled chikcen and veggies as a snack have pb and banana on a ww bagel.

    so you can still get your macros in if you play it right..some ppl are hard gainers and seriously need 4000 cal or more a day,me i can cut well on 2 and have no prob gaining on 3-3,5....but like you said before thats more broscience and what works for me.From a scientific stand point i couldnt agree more with you.

    im kind of use to stating what works for me. And due to you i Alcar is a staple in my diet.i just ordered 2 bottles of ALCAR by SNS about 3 days ago. looking into green tea soon along with RK.

    as for na-r-,i just started reading about last week..allmax has it and its very affordable. As for caffeine,im not really suppose to have it,so im deciding on buying some caffeine pills,i know its a staple.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Jay888999 View Post
    Great post.^^

    yes,ofcourse calories will not be as high.But as soon as you bulk calories go up..

    lets say replace all chicken and fish with steaks and burgers and roastbeef.

    add in more noodles and potatos and bread in replace for your seewt potatos and oats.Not saying to disregard sweet potatos and oats,just want to clear that up.

    up fatsin stead of a grilled chikcen and veggies as a snack have pb and banana on a ww bagel.

    so you can still get your macros in if you play it right..some ppl are hard gainers and seriously need 4000 cal or more a day,me i can cut well on 2 and have no prob gaining on 3-3,5....but like you said before thats more broscience and what works for me.From a scientific stand point i couldnt agree more with you.

    im kind of use to stating what works for me. And due to you i Alcar is a staple in my diet.i just ordered 2 bottles of ALCAR by SNS about 3 days ago. looking into green tea soon along with RK.

    as for na-r-,i just started reading about last week..allmax has it and its very affordable. As for caffeine,im not really suppose to have it,so im deciding on buying some caffeine pills,i know its a staple.
    Yeah I get what you mean, we gotta do what works for our bodies, and that's the point of training naturally for a good while. In the end what works for some might not work for everyone, but at least some basic guidelines can help as a startpoint for people to go from there and get to their goals adjusting the diet/supps as needed.

    Glad to know I could help, ALCAR is a godsend for me lol one day try dosing 2g before going out drinking and enjoy...You won't suffer as harsh effects from the hang over as usual.

    Na-R-Ala is best (according to Coop and some readings I did) if it is Geronova Licensed , the Nutraplanet bulk one actually is and it is pretty cheap, comes with a scoop and all. RK and Green tea have many other benefits besides fat burning or adipogenesis prevention, good antioxidants and perfect general health supplements iMO. Hope you enjoy them!
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  7. Lol I'm in a permanent lean bulk.

    It was not something I planned to try it was really just a thought that popped into my head during this car ride.

  8. I wish I could gain at 3. I'm at 3600 a day now and will roll with that for a few weeks before probably upping Cals again. Its all this stupid running on top of my own workouts.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Yeah I get what you mean, we gotta do what works for our bodies, and that's the point of training naturally for a good while. In the end what works for some might not work for everyone, but at least some basic guidelines can help as a startpoint for people to go from there and get to their goals adjusting the diet/supps as needed.

    Glad to know I could help, ALCAR is a godsend for me lol one day try dosing 2g before going out drinking and enjoy...You won't suffer as harsh effects from the hang over as usual.

    Na-R-Ala is best (according to Coop and some readings I did) if it is Geronova Licensed , the Nutraplanet bulk one actually is and it is pretty cheap, comes with a scoop and all. RK and Green tea have many other benefits besides fat burning or adipogenesis prevention, good antioxidants and perfect general health supplements iMO. Hope you enjoy them!
    lol thnx bud an yeah,i will reccomend the alcar pre drunkness to my girl..i drink maybe 1 time a month =),really,lol

    imma look into NP R-ala now.

    thankx again.

  10. I've tried using a fat burner during a bulk cause I was doing IF.

    Wanted it for the appetite suppression during my fasted state. But the suppression worked to well that I couldn't eat all my calories

  11. I'm going to disagree quite a bit with the former posts here. Some fat burners are actually preferred on a bulking routine. For instance, Reduce XT prevents cortisol spikes, which helps prevent adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis. And during which phase of one's diet do the latter two processes occur with the highest predominance? Bulking.

    The same can be said for forskolin, TTA, raspberry ketones, and even EC (beta agonists are plenty useful regardless of energetic state). These products create an unfavorable state for fat storage, and many are tested in individuals fed a high-fat/high-calorie diet.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I'm going to disagree quite a bit with the former posts here. Some fat burners are actually preferred on a bulking routine. For instance, Reduce XT prevents cortisol spikes, which helps prevent adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis. And during which phase of one's diet do the latter two processes occur with the highest predominance? Bulking.

    The same can be said for forskolin, TTA, raspberry ketones, and even EC (beta agonists are plenty useful regardless of energetic state). These products create an unfavorable state for fat storage, and many are tested in individuals fed a high-fat/high-calorie diet.
    Going to piggy back off this. I actually prefer to run most of the things listed there on a caloric surplus. TTA and Forskolin are the most common ones for me, with the occasional cortisol control product. I feel that things that help control body fat gain on a bulk are very beneficial. Keep in mind this doesn't mean you can eat like crap and not get fat (in fact you will most likely gain fat regardless, but these should help slow the accumulation IME). Keep in mind this typically for me means the non-stim fat burners as I think most stim products are garbage for actual fat loss, but there are a select few that might be helpful. This in general comes from my typical approach to bulking and cutting but that is probably off topic.

    As far as actual product recommendations I have used with success:
    Lean Extreme or Reduce XT are solid as well.
    SNS TTA if you can find some (Nutra has a killer deal ATM).

    and while not necessarily what people would consider a fat burner these next two should help with your intended goal as well:
    Anabeta Elite (contains cortisol control and forskolin)
    ArA (X-gels or X-factor)

  13. Thanks guys. That was kind of my thought process, just without all the experience and science. I have AB and ABE and really like them and have not had much trouble as far as fat goes, really my problem is weight gain in any fashion. So I'm just working on diet for now but its never too early to learn something new.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I'm going to disagree quite a bit with the former posts here. Some fat burners are actually preferred on a bulking routine. For instance, Reduce XT prevents cortisol spikes, which helps prevent adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis. And during which phase of one's diet do the latter two processes occur with the highest predominance? Bulking.

    The same can be said for forskolin, TTA, raspberry ketones, and even EC (beta agonists are plenty useful regardless of energetic state). These products create an unfavorable state for fat storage, and many are tested in individuals fed a high-fat/high-calorie diet.
    To what extent can cortisol release be slowed/reduced?

    David
    Team APPNUT
    Applied Nutriceuticals Representative
    Appliednutriceuticals.com
    Are you ready for N.O. UPTAKE? It's a game-changer!

  15. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I'm going to disagree quite a bit with the former posts here. Some fat burners are actually preferred on a bulking routine. For instance, Reduce XT prevents cortisol spikes, which helps prevent adipocyte differentiation and adipogenesis. And during which phase of one's diet do the latter two processes occur with the highest predominance? Bulking.

    The same can be said for forskolin, TTA, raspberry ketones, and even EC (beta agonists are plenty useful regardless of energetic state). These products create an unfavorable state for fat storage, and many are tested in individuals fed a high-fat/high-calorie diet.
    WAit...I did say they were useful on a lean bulk oO never said they weren't. Even mentioned the aforementioned by you coopy, just didn't mention Reduce-XT as it didn't come to mind at all haha but yeah cortisol control is great on a bulk. I guess I mean to point out to James (on my first post) that stuff that were not like the aforementioned ingredients would not work...like usual fat burners from the industry unlike the products mentioned.

    Yet I still don't think a fat burner can do much on a dirty bulk when the caloric surplus is huge...or can they work as literally burning far when stuffing your face with even loads of dirty cals coop?
    >SNS-Glycophase<
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep

  16. Quote Originally Posted by drooks10 View Post
    To what extent can cortisol release be slowed/reduced?

    David
    Team APPNUT
    Spikes can be controlled, which would theoretically result in a favorable shift of net anabolism of muscle tissue (anabolism minus catabolism). This has been shown in dieting individuals using the active in Reduce XT, in which weight lost was not significantly different between groups, but percent of weight lost as fat versus muscle mass was​ different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    WAit...I did say they were useful on a lean bulk oO never said they weren't. Even mentioned the aforementioned by you coopy, just didn't mention Reduce-XT as it didn't come to mind at all haha but yeah cortisol control is great on a bulk. I guess I mean to point out to James (on my first post) that stuff that were not like the aforementioned ingredients would not work...like usual fat burners from the industry unlike the products mentioned.

    Yet I still don't think a fat burner can do much on a dirty bulk when the caloric surplus is huge...or can they work as literally burning far when stuffing your face with even loads of dirty cals coop?
    Why do you think my comment was targeting you, lol. I was speaking for the purposes of education, not criticizing a post that I barely glossed over.

    There's no such thing as dirty calories. Plenty of fat burners have been studied in rats fed an absurdly high fat/high calorie diet, and they do effectively reduce the damage. Most MOAs are irrespective of caloric state when it comes to stim-free fatburners that aren't affecting the thyroid.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Celorza

    WAit...I did say they were useful on a lean bulk oO never said they weren't. Even mentioned the aforementioned by you coopy, just didn't mention Reduce-XT as it didn't come to mind at all haha but yeah cortisol control is great on a bulk. I guess I mean to point out to James (on my first post) that stuff that were not like the aforementioned ingredients would not work...like usual fat burners from the industry unlike the products mentioned.

    Yet I still don't think a fat burner can do much on a dirty bulk when the caloric surplus is huge...or can they work as literally burning far when stuffing your face with even loads of dirty cals coop?
    On a dirty bulk a fat burner wont like i said before,but a clean bulk,it can help big time...

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Spikes can be controlled, which would theoretically result in a favorable shift of net anabolism of muscle tissue (anabolism minus catabolism). This has been shown in dieting individuals using the active in Reduce XT, in which weight lost was not significantly different between groups, but percent of weight lost as fat versus muscle mass was different.

    Why do you think my comment was targeting you, lol. I was speaking for the purposes of education, not criticizing a post that I barely glossed over.

    There's no such thing as dirty calories. Plenty of fat burners have been studied in rats fed an absurdly high fat/high calorie diet, and they do effectively reduce the damage. Most MOAs are irrespective of caloric state when it comes to stim-free fatburners that aren't affecting the thyroid.
    No such thing as dirty calories..really?? Ok!

    I have bulked before with clean and dirty calories and the outcome waa good but not,in a sense.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Jay888999 View Post
    On a dirty bulk a fat burner wont like i said before,but a clean bulk,it can help big time...
    Think again. Raspberry ketones:

    Anti-obese action of raspberry ketone.

    Morimoto C, Satoh Y, Hara M, Inoue S, Tsujita T, Okuda H.
    Source

    Department of Medical Biochemistry, Ehime University School of Medicine, Shigenobu-cho, Onsen-gun, Ehime 791-0295, Japan. [email protected]

    Abstract

    Raspberry ketone (4-(4-hydroxyphenyl) butan-2-one; RK) is a major aromatic compound of red raspberry (Rubus idaeus). The structure of RK is similar to the structures of capsaicin and synephrine, compounds known to exert anti-obese actions and alter the lipid metabolism. The present study was performed to clarify whether RK helps prevent obesity and activate lipid metabolism in rodents. To test the effect on obesity, our group designed the following in vivo experiments: 1) mice were fed a high-fat diet including 0.5, 1, or 2% of RK for 10 weeks; 2) mice were given a high-fat diet for 6 weeks and subsequently fed the same high-fat diet containing 1% RK for the next 5 weeks. RK prevented the high-fat-diet-induced elevations in body weight and the weights of the liver and visceral adipose tissues (epididymal, retroperitoneal, and mesenteric). RK also decreased these weights and hepatic triacylglycerol content after they had been increased by a high-fat diet. RK significantly increased norepinephrine-induced lipolysis associated with the translocation of hormone-sensitive lipase from the cytosol to lipid droplets in rat epididymal fat cells. In conclusion, RK prevents and improves obesity and fatty liver. These effects appear to stem from the action of RK in altering the lipid metabolism, or more specifically, in increasing norepinephrine-induced lipolysis in white adipocytes.

    Olive leaf extract:

    Olive leaf extract attenuates cardiac, hepatic, and metabolic changes in high carbohydrate-, high fat-fed rats.

    Poudyal H, Campbell F, Brown L.
    Source

    School of Biomedical Sciences; 5School of Veterinary Sciences, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, 4072, Australia.

    Abstract

    Olive oil, an important component of the Mediterranean diet, produces cardioprotective effects, probably due to both oleic acid and the polyphenols such as oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol. Our aim in this study was to assess whether a polyphenol-enriched extract from the leaves of Olea europaea L. with oleuropein as the major component attenuated the cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic signs of a high-carbohydrate, high-fat (HCHF) diet (carbohydrate, 52%; fat, 24%, 25% fructose in drinking water) in rats. Male Wistar rats were fed either a cornstarch diet (CS) or a HCHF diet for a total of 16 wk. Diets of the treatment groups [CS+olive leaf extract (OLE) and HCHF+OLE] were supplemented with 3% OLE after 8 wk of being fed their respective CS or HCHF diets for a further 8 wk. After 16 wk, HCHF rats developed signs of metabolic syndrome, including elevated abdominal and hepatic fat deposition, collagen deposition in heart and liver, cardiac stiffness, and oxidative stress markers (plasma malondialdehyde and uric acid concentrations), with diminished aortic ring reactivity, abnormal plasma lipid profile, impaired glucose tolerance, and hypertension. Compared with HCHF rats, those in the HCHF+OLE group had improved or normalized cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic signs with the exception of elevated blood pressure. These results strongly suggest that an OLE containing polyphenols such as oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol reverses the chronic inflammation and oxidative stress that induces the cardiovascular, hepatic, and metabolic symptoms in this rat model of diet-induced obesity and diabetes without changing blood pressure.

    And the list goes on.

    This action isn't specifically referred to as lipolytic, but rather anti-obesogenic.



  20. How effective will that be if your eating 5000 cals a day and alot of it is ****..i believe while science is great,its not always perfect

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Jay888999 View Post
    How effective will that be if your eating 5000 cals a day and alot of it is ****..i believe while science is great,its not always perfect
    In theory, the worse your diet is, the higher the absolute contribution (proportionally, it may be equivalent) of a fat burner to minimizing weight gain. I'm not saying you won't get fat. Read between the lines of the above post, and take not of anti-obesogenic activity.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    In theory, the worse your diet is, the higher the absolute contribution (proportionally, it may be equivalent) of a fat burner to minimizing weight gain. I'm not saying you won't get fat. Read between the lines of the above post, and take not of anti-obesogenic activity.
    So using sosomething like reduce XT + RK could benefit someone who is looking to gain weight while minimizing fat gain?

    Also now I wonder if the effect would be noticeable compared to the same bulk without those things?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    So using sosomething like reduce XT + RK could benefit someone who is looking to gain weight while minimizing fat gain?

    Also now I wonder if the effect would be noticeable compared to the same bulk without those things?
    Yes, and it may possibly increase net muscle accrual by increasing net muscle anabolism.

    An equivalent bulk would likely have you gaining the same amount of weight with more of it being partitioned to fat mass.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Yes, and it may possibly increase net muscle accrual by increasing net muscle anabolism.

    An equivalent bulk would likely have you gaining the same amount of weight with more of it being partitioned to fat mass.
    Ok,so all this above is scientific proof which you state,thats great.

    Have you gone through this personally.? More than once or twice?

    Like i said before,science sounds great..But im also a firm believer that expierience is what counts.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Jay888999 View Post
    Ok,so all this above is scientific proof which you state,thats great.

    Have you gone through this personally.? More than once or twice?

    Like i said before,science sounds great..But im also a firm believer that expierience is what counts.
    Yes, I have used Reduce XT during bulking on several occasions.

    I hope you realize that science is experience-based. It takes subjects and puts them through "the experience" while minimizing confounding variables. It is thus more accurate from a "true effects vs placebo" perspective and less accurate in that the subjects are never perfect representations of you as an individual. However, given sample sizes, examination of underlying mechanisms, placebo control, and blinding, it is infinitely more valuable than the anecdotal experiences of one man using something.
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