Burst cycliing

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    Burst cycliing


    I was sitting around today and considering things scientifically. I came to the conclusion before even reading your comment about 'burst' cycling that it would be the most effective and safest (in a matter of speaking) way to continue MY use of steorids. (this is not saying longer cycles that are well planned arent good for others).

    . I agree with dorian yates' approach. Dorian yates was one of the best bbers to ever live IMO (and been seen 'healthily' retired after a career as a 300lb successful beast). Sometimes i sit here and think to myself that although no matter how educated and planned and precautious i am I do not like to be ON more than I am OFF (over the course of the year). Also...I think that too many people are still assuming the "more is better" approach applies to the amount of time spent on a cycle.

    from personal observation I noticed that once I put on my initial blast of weight during my cycle. the rest was just a plateau. It only took me about 6 weeks (after the 5 weeks of time it took for the esters to kick in) for all of my gains that I have now to be present on my physique. I think that the only thing being ON for those extra weeks did was let my body become adjusted to holding that weight and refine it a little. moreso, The rest of it was spent processing 'extra' gear, and tiring my body out.

    I agree that the probem with recovery comes when you are trying to reverse a newly found homeostasis. No matter what conditions (healthy or not) your body is being forced into, it will try to create homeostasis. combating this with ancillary drugs and supplements only does us so much good, becuase each additional one of them come with their own side effects/body stress. plus, there are too many biological mechanisms working together to create this balanced system that we cannot truly understand (at least yet) how 'everything' works.

    the theory of burst cycling is to take advantage of the time window before the body realizes that this influx of anabolics and adrogens is not just temporary but 'permanent' (becuase what else is your body to 'think'[for lack of a better word] when it is consistently processing these compounds). the few weeks it takes for the body to realize and adapt an equilibrium to this synthetic endocrine manipulation is the time during which the drugs are most successful at performing our desired muscle growth. that said, it makes sense to flood the system (within healthy reason) with anabolics and anti-catabolics that cover almost every angle of growth during these few weeks. so for instance one could be using a PWO combination of gh/slin/igf-1 to take advantage of their benefits and synergy, as well as flooding their AR's with maybe 1g test prop and some deca/tren (gotta watch BP etc in higher doses). the steroidal compounds suggested may not be the best combination, but of course that in itself can open up some new discussion.

    during the 4-6 weeks that we flood our system with these compounds, we take advantage of the body not having the homeostatic mechanisms in place to regulate and embrace/limit this new muscle (hypertrophy and hyperplasia when covering every angle). we also avoid some of the adjustments the body makes/accounts for when we finally do adjust to the manipulated endocrine system. these would include, severly impacted lipids, possibly BPH(under the assumption that it takes much time to enlarge the prostate), excessive estrogen formation (estrogen is also a player in BPH), aggrivated hairloss and other negative effects associated with DHT conversion over time. Obviously testosterone does aromatize, therefore increasing the likelihood of water retention and BP elevation, it also converts to DHT. But....time is the different variable here. and of course and AI and possibly a systematic DHT blocker like dutasteride or fina could be used if found necessary.

    I truly believe that there is only so much you can 'calculate' and at some point one has to rely on a sense of feel. as mr yates would 'feel' himself getting burnt out he would come off and have a much easier time recovering. this makes a lot of sense, the body hasnt had time to decide to be shut down fully and place all the mechanisms that keep it that way becuase if feels that its androgens are being 'replaced' for a while. with this method, concept of replacement is avoided because full shut down isnt reached. I think that 250mg test is just as suppressive as 1g. so the dose isnt the issue, its the time.

    the downside I can see here is side effects from rapid hormonal changes. obviously there is a risk taken there.

    the underlying idea is why not USE when you NEED to and come off as soon as you dont NEED to be on (and not have to spend so much unproductive time on, as well as trying to recover). we can also avoid problems like the risk of infertility when our bodies have been relying on artificial androgens most of the year.

    let's face it. we all want to improve our physiques and it would be so nice to just get detailed advice from the best (pro bbers etc), BUT many of them have their reasons not to share such info. It takes years to build a physique like that with our without drugs. Its an accomplishment either way. I just think some of them are not relying on drugs the way others do. (doesnt mean they dont use them when they need to make progress). I think opening some discussion to these alternative methods cycling would be interesting. I will probably start planning a cycle of my own like this.


    what do you guys think?

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    A Burst cycle needs to be preceded w/ a "prime".

    What is a "prime"?

    The best explanation comes from Warrior:

    Priming is a prepatory method used to better prepare the body before starting an AAS cycle. The goal of priming is to make the system very sensitive to a flood of androgens, food and intense training. Most advanced bodybuilders (especially those that compete) know how responsive the body can be right after leaning up - such as the growth spurts that are frequently experienced after a competition... with or without AAS.

    If done correctly, priming will surprise you by very quick and dramatic results. In my opinion, priming should be done before every cycle - no matter the athlete's previous cycle experience. Because of the quicker results, cycle duration could also be cut back to make coming off and restoring proper HPTA function easier. The basic principle here is to create an environment where you body is very responsive to increased calories and your mind feels pent up and ready to move heavy weights.

    Priming involves the correct dietary and training techniques that get you to drop fat but no muscle. Basically, you diet down slow enough to simply lose some fat - no muscle should be lost. The training should not be so intense that you risk overtraining; in fact, a general maintenance routine would be best in most cases. The diet should allow your body to become sensitive to carbohydrates and other macronutrients. Generally, a cyclic ketogenic diet (CKD) works wonders - staying low carb for 3-4 days maximum, then carbing up. Again, the goal is to lean up but preserve current LBM.

    How to run a "primed" burst cycle for maximum growth?

    A very knowledgeable Marcus explains:

    Priming opens the growth window and creates a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow at a very fast rate, i can not express enough how important this process is, this will enhance any cycle and huge gains can be produced and maintained by this simple process of priming (carb cycling), just to note when priming dont be hard on the body and try and force the environment a slow steady carb cycling so the body doesn't react in starvation mode is what is needed, 3-5 days low carb to 1 day high carbs is a general rule.

    When the priming is done your body is ready to direct everything into the muscle cells, because of the priming the cells on the muscles are very excitable and everything is directed into the muscle cells instead of fat cells, so if you incorporate the priming so it ends when a cycle starts and the intense training everything is directed into growth of muscle tissue and the growth spurt starts, in nature growth occurs in spurts and we are no different babies and teenagers all grow in spurts we cant carry on growing for a long period of time our bodies just dont work like that no matter what we put into them, so take advantage of the window and start a cycle when priming ends, because the spurt only last for a few wks a short cycle fits nicely into it but longer cycle can be used it depends on the individual and how good he responds to AAS, I normally only grow for the first half of cycles so short cycling works great for me.

    The cycle needs to be designed around some form of cycle history and use what works best for you, looking over the cycle history will tell you which compounds work and which ones your body responds well to with little sides, design a cycle with this in mind, GH is of great benefit, it should be run at a low dose during priming and when the cycle starts and the intense training the dose of GH should be high for that individual, all these growth factors all work together in producing new muscle tissue gains, I've done my own personal studies with GH and priming and different ways of cycling and the GH is of great benefit in pushing new boundaries of growth while the growth spurt is open.

    GH is a wonderful and remarkable hormone, its basically a lipolytic it burns fat while supporting the immune system and prevents bone loss and supports the retention of lean body mass, in other words in time it makes you big and ripped and transforms your physique,when you start GH therapy it causes a shift in the metabolism where the body tries to burn alot more fatty acids than glucose, this benefit is sometimes mild but over time strips the fat away from the muscle, now for the other effect GH has on the body it increases amino acid uptake by muscles and can build lean muscle tissue, so what happens especially if you're a bodybuilder and training and eating like one is you start to increase in lean body mass even more so if AAS are implemented as well so an increase in LBM which in turn changes the rate of body fat is burnt due to the LBM increasing, so in time major changes in the body's compostion are noticed even with no alteration in the diet, so just think if the right cycle and diet was done with GH the body changes put all this with the priming and designed cycle and you have everything you need to achieve your goals

    Now the dose what is need to transform the body is something ive discovered over the yrs, this is were i went wrong for years using to little of amount of GH,all i use to receive was fat loss and slight condition, A former Mr O's camp at the time said i was doing it all wrong and they showed me and made me understand what i needed to do to change my body totally, nowadays ive found what works 100% for me, its a good solid prime and create the anabolic window for muscle then i start a short cycle whether heavy/light or modertae put this together with a very intense training program and diet and incorporate GH at a muscle building dose and the body changes very quickly.

    Sides with GH are bad if your're a sufferer, carpel tunnel syndrome is murder but at least you know the GH you are taking is real, what I found is to run a maintenance dose of gh during the prime and slowly build the dose up and when you stop the prime and start the cycle and hit the food, training and AAS, increase the GH its not as bad if you run it for a few wks before and steadily up the dose for the start of cycle.
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    nice info. I agree there needs to be a "prime" to some degree. however I think it depends on the person. Also, I agree that coming off of a cut is a great way to 'prime.' but for those still easily responding to different compounds maybe plain old rest will suffice? (training and eating at maintenence etc).

    also, what about the other angles besides GH. what types of doses and combinations of steroids is favored? what about using IGF-1 with slin and GH/GH booster of some sort.

    this would all be interesting to discuss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    nice info. I agree there needs to be a "prime" to some degree. however I think it depends on the person. Also, I agree that coming off of a cut is a great way to 'prime.' but for those still easily responding to different compounds maybe plain old rest will suffice? (training and eating at maintenence etc).

    also, what about the other angles besides GH. what types of doses and combinations of steroids is favored? what about using IGF-1 with slin and GH/GH booster of some sort.

    this would all be interesting to discuss.
    I've never use GH but as you know I have used IGF-1/slin and did not replicate GH's desired effect. You mentioned using peptides for anti-catabolism on cycle...but there is no need. The steroids are anti-catabolic enough.

    I disagree w/ your statement that "training and eating at maintenence" suffices before a cycle. Sure you'll grow...you no that of course...but you won't grow at as fast a rate. Since we were talking about short cycles...the idea was to grow at the fastest rate possible for that short duration. Why leave lean muscle tissue unaccumulated when it could have been gained?

    Some of this also goes back to the debate about "resetting receptors". Leaving all the nomenclature aside...one thing we have learned is that it isn't necessary to keep escalating doses of steroids so much if you do things to make your body more "receptive" again. One such thing is the use of DNP.

    It appears that a nice cut can to some extent duplicate some of this DNP effect.

    Some naturals also effectively do primes or cuts for 2 weeks followed by 4 weeks of bulking again followed by 2 week cuts, etc..

    So you are really missing the key methodology behind why priming is so effective if you don't look to the dieting aspect to put your body in a state where it is "craving" to grow lean tissue.
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    Here is more explanation from Markus:

    Priming before a cycle explained

    Please read the basic ideas around priming,

    You need to work off a basic diet one which your maintaining on, this is the diet what you prime from, its all about confusing the body, Ive found that carb cycling is the best way to prime, it also keeps hold of valuable muscle tissue if its done correctly,

    The best way Ive found is 3-5 days low carb 40% less than your maintenance diet then followed by 1 day high carb 15% higher than the maintenance diet, you will have to adjust the low carb days to suit your body but don't go near 7 days low carbs, a common problem with reducing carbs is that over time the metabolic rate can and will begin to adapt, when carbs stays low for an extended period of time usually at the 7 day mark and up, fat cells attempt to hold on by resisting the release of fatty acids, levels of lipoprotien lipase tend to rise and thyroid levels drop, these both effect overall basal metabolism and are part of the starvation response which off sets reductions in energy intake and is very common to muscle wastage, so adjust to your body's response but in my opinion don't go 7 days or more,

    The one high carb day should be introduced around 3-5 day mark of low carbs, the high carb day at around day 3-5 this interrupts the starvation response which restores thyroid levels back to normal while also suppressing the fat storing enzyme lipoprotein ( which rises after day 7 of a lower carb intake) which results in no muscle tissue wastage,

    Also if you catch this right at when the glycogen levels drop which is around 3-5 day mark and you follow this by the high carb day with an increase of calories even higher than what the body had been use to previous to the reduction, the body responds by increasing thermogenesis which in turn helps the whole process,

    Everybody is different but ive got alot of personally logs/reports which show muscle wastage on carb cycling at the 7 day mark and up, the body re-adjusts itself at this stage and holds onto the fat cells while using the precious muscle tissue as energy, which in turn the individual will lose more muscle tissue than stopping short this process at 3-5 day mark of the low carb,

    The key is tricking the metabolism into losing fat instead of muscle tissue by rotating carbs but not letting the body trigger the starvation response, also Ive found that before any type of carb cycling you must of establish a basic diet which you have ran for a number of weeks in where the body isn't gaining or losing any size just maintaining what its got, this is very important because this established diet is what you work off so we get the body to respond the best by dropping bf and holding onto muscle tissue,

    As you priming your body goes into a environment were muscle tissue can be built very fast, just look how much you put on after a contest, this whole process you take advantage of and put it together with a cycle and hit all comounds hard and fast, an increase in calories is needed everyday of the cycle, you must support the amount of AAS and growth the body wants to grow, as soon as you start the cycle your body is very anabolic so take advantage of this and hit it hard, growth comes on fast,

    Dont set a target weight for the prime, the prime isnt really about weight loss its about priming the body for the intense cycle/training, do the prime as slow as possible the body reacts better if its done this way, make sure you carb cycle of the maintance diet what you have now, confuse the body dont do anything drastic slowly build the enviroment for growth, trust me do this part spot on and the gains are untrue, the body only grows in short bursts this is a natural thing from babys to teenagers, so go with the flow of the body just create the body ready for the growth and very intense training,

    Make sure your on a low dose gh throughout the prime,

    slowly confuse the body into burning fat as fuel then restore the gyl store with the 1 day high carb, but this 1 day wont full them up only restore abit so next time you low carb for 3-5 day even more fat will be burnt and the process of creating an anabolic enviroment is getting acheived.

    when you start to reduce carbs by 40% for 3-5 days the glycogen stores start to deplete and when muscle glycogen stores are lower a metabolic shift occurs where additional fat is used for fuel which in turn promotes fat loss so after you return back to 1 day high carb intake the extra carbs simply re-store muscles with glycogen, so as long as there is room for more glucose from carbs the carbs must be stored as glycogen, but with only one day higher carbs the store are not fully full so the next time you do 3-5 day lower carbs the stores get even more depleted which even triggers more fat loss but the high day carb is enough to stop the starvation response of the body so no metabolic shift to slow it down,

    This overall procedure puts your body into a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow couple this with a cycle and growth is amazing, but i must stress the prime as to be done correctly to take full advantage
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...what types of doses and combinations of steroids is favored?
    Are you sure you want to discuss dosing on an open board? The cycles are very short 4-5 weeks. The dosages are very high by the standards of this board. There have been private experiments done w/ various dosages where different bodybuilders take different dosages and results compared.

    If I haven't made it clear priming is important to take advantage of the large amounts of gear injected and food consumed.
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    well it is clear now that priming will obviously set the body up or maximum gains during this 4-5 week cycle. the question is. will the 4-5 week 'blast' still work if there is less emphasis on the prime? I wouldnt consier doing this myeslf without doing a sufficient prime, because like you said who wants to sacrifice possible gains. BUT for the sake of conversation, and magnitude of gains aside, wont many of the benefits of such a cycle still hold true? that is all i was reallyt talking about.

    what I mean is, the body will still grow to some degree, considering that many people's gains come very fast in a cycle and then plataue (as body finds a new balance of its mechanisms to regulate homeostasis). IGF-1 and MGF for example (anti-catabolic peptides), would definitely do more good than harm. They also promote hyperplasia, and there is noted synergy between IGF-1 and HGH (I mean using IGF-1 with HGH, not just HGH converting in the liver to IGF-1).

    the other thing to consider is that although there may be spikes in BP and acne becuase of the rapidly administered 'high' doses of gear, the less favorable long term side effects such as messy lipids, BPH, severe shutdown (although 4-5 weeks of certain compounds would still be rather suppressive, but considering the body has had little time to realize and adjust to the altered conditions, recovery should be easy. also not having the body grow accustomed to being shut down for long periods of time may help avoid issues like the risk of infertility.) I still think that prime aside, shorter blast methods are safer in the long run (as far as long term sides are concerned)
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    Very interesting discussion going on here. I too am a fan of the short cycle/burst design as they are definitely easier to recover HPTA from...in my experience. Gains are very good for the amt of time spent on. Ive done 2-3 wk cycles of orals and sometimes test prop at higher doseages and was very impressed. 8-12 lbs gains after post cycle therapy is finished. Just finished a 17 day cycle of 40-50mgs superdrol worked up from 20 first few days with some c-12 peptide(blood pressure control) and was very impressed---finished some mild dieting from 194-> up to 202 at the end and now sitting at 205 after post cycle therapy. would you believe i gained 9 lbs before on winny and var in 14 days...i was very surprised but i was using 100mgs/40mgs respectively. I think d-bol, anadrol, superdrol are very well suited for this. Also this is great for folks that cant set aside 4-5 months for cycling/post cycle therapy due to work, family, trips, etcc...its a lot harder to have a perfect long cycle than a perfect burst cycle- you're on and then off before you know it. Oh and i did incorporate slin in the last one 3days week. Im also curious on y'alls thoughts on synergistic compounds that are better suited for this style of cycling. Oh forgot to mention i used a very low dose of topical 4-ad/formestane on this last one and had no lethargy issues that i normally get from superdrol.

    -Soma
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    Quote Originally Posted by soma View Post
    Very interesting discussion going on here. I too am a fan of the short cycle/burst design as they are definitely easier to recover HPTA from...in my experience. Gains are very good for the amt of time spent on. Ive done 2-3 wk cycles of orals and sometimes test prop at higher doseages and was very impressed. 8-12 lbs gains after post cycle therapy is finished. Just finished a 17 day cycle of 40-50mgs superdrol worked up from 20 first few days with some c-12 peptide(blood pressure control) and was very impressed---finished some mild dieting from 194-> up to 202 at the end and now sitting at 205 after post cycle therapy. would you believe i gained 9 lbs before on winny and var in 14 days...i was very surprised but i was using 100mgs/40mgs respectively. I think d-bol, anadrol, superdrol are very well suited for this. Also this is great for folks that cant set aside 4-5 months for cycling/post cycle therapy due to work, family, trips, etcc...its a lot harder to have a perfect long cycle than a perfect burst cycle- you're on and then off before you know it. Oh and i did incorporate slin in the last one 3days week. Im also curious on y'alls thoughts on synergistic compounds that are better suited for this style of cycling. Oh forgot to mention i used a very low dose of topical 4-ad/formestane on this last one and had no lethargy issues that i normally get from superdrol.

    -Soma


    yea I agree. 'for entertainment purposes' the discussion of synergistic compounds and doses would be interesting. I havent been a fan of running solely on orals. maybe some dbol, But I think 4-5 week of of an injectable burst would be ideal health/gain wise.
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    I started outlining a possible 4-6 week blast. Heres what I have so far:

    test prop: 1000mg/week
    Tren Ace: 525-700mg/week
    (primo ace tabs):100-150mg/day
    (dbol):30-50mg/day
    IGF-1LR3: 20mcg PWO
    humalog:10iu PWO
    GH booster (probably not going to $fork$ out for GH):depends on product
    AI/SERM: havent decided which. Im thinking using low dose SERM to prevent gyno and if bloat gets bad use a bit of aromasin or a natty AI.

    HCG: maybe a few 250iu shots but shouldnt be needed. may actually disrupt the possibly 'not yet suppressed' system

    I dont know if those are the most synergistic compounds to use for this purpose but to me they seem so. Both very short esters (thought about usign test suspension....hmmm...). the primo tabs may be a waste of money. but they may help smooth out the gains and some of the unwanted aromatization etc etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    yea I agree. 'for entertainment purposes' the discussion of synergistic compounds and doses would be interesting. I havent been a fan of running solely on orals. maybe some dbol, But I think 4-5 week of of an injectable burst would be ideal health/gain wise.
    same here. i feel that dbol would best be used in this type of situation. it's probably the only oral i will use again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    BUT for the sake of conversation, and magnitude of gains aside, wont many of the benefits of such a cycle still hold true? that is all i was reallyt talking about.
    Yes but now we need to make a distinction that we haven't made yet.
    • "Blast" cycles are characterized by short time periods, higher then average amounts of anabolic factors primarily GH & Steroids and include a prime to help the body soak it up. The object is to MAXAMIZE gains.

    • A. L. Rea cycles as outlined in his books are characterized by very short time periods and a uniquely Rea advice on the timing and type of compounds to use. The emphasis is on some gains w/ a quicker HPTA recovery.

    • Short cycles or micro cycles which run no more than 3.5 weeks and often less which use fast-acting compounds (often just a single compound), do not require mega-doses...the thought is that shutdown can be avoided IF the cycle is around 2 weeks and limited if the cycle is only say 3 weeks. Here the emphasis is on quick recovery...although gains are smaller you have the ability to cycle more frequently.

    • Medium length cycles (often called short) which run no more than 8 weeks. The reasoning behind these cycles is that a lot of people feel the majority of their gains come by week 7 so why continue beyond that and deal with increasing sides. The emphasis is on solid gains, lower sides and better recovery.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    what I mean is, the body will still grow to some degree, considering that many people's gains come very fast in a cycle and then plataue (as body finds a new balance of its mechanisms to regulate homeostasis).
    Yes I agree, you are referring to a medium length cycle here.

    IGF-1 and MGF for example (anti-catabolic peptides), would definitely do more good than harm. They also promote hyperplasia, and there is noted synergy between IGF-1 and HGH (I mean using IGF-1 with HGH, not just HGH converting in the liver to IGF-1).
    I don't think those peptides ever do harm to gains, only to the wallet. The anti-catabolic properties are better used when cortisol is high and uncountered...not a concern w/ high levels of androgens in the body but a major concern immediately thereafter. The other characteristics of those peptides can be realized on cycle for sure.

    HGH is a different...like we have said beneficial in a prime (cut), in a blast, w/ or w/o slin, etc. but as you have pointed out it is costly.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...I still think that prime aside, shorter blast methods are safer in the long run (as far as long term sides are concerned)
    I agree with you that the shorter cycles reduce a lot of sides. But the "blast" method (as opposed to the other three methods) because it uses high levels of steroids may introduce severe sides such as increased BP which can make the method less safe, not to mention the sides that come from high doses of GH (slin by-the-way will reduce those sides).

    So while shorter cycles may be okay for less experienced users a "blast" method should only be attempted by an advanced user who already has measured his reactions to the compounds he will use & who is capable of delivering the intensity in training that is required to get the most out of this run.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soma View Post
    ...Im also curious on y'alls thoughts on synergistic compounds that are better suited for this style of cycling.
    Since you like prohormones I have found great synergy between testosterone & the original Phera-plex. The key is to make sure that the test is in full swing before you add the phera-plex. The strength gains for the 3-4 weeks of the combo are tren-like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...I dont know if those are the most synergistic compounds to use for this purpose but to me they seem so. ...
    What you want is fast acting compounds; that hit the androgen receptors hard; enable you to make some solid gains; minimize sides; and clear quickly.

    The following stacks meet your requirements:

    Test Prop/Tren Ace
    Test Prop/Tren Ace/Winny
    Test Prop/Anadrol
    Test Prop/Dbol
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    What you want is fast acting compounds; that hit the androgen receptors hard; enable you to make some solid gains; minimize sides; and clear quickly.

    The following stacks meet your requirements:

    Test Prop/Tren Ace
    Test Prop/Tren Ace/Winny
    Test Prop/Anadrol
    Test Prop/Dbol
    yea I figured the combo of test prop and tren ace would hit hard and serve the purpose. Thank you for brining the distinction between the cycles to my attention. I hadnt realized the term 'blast cycle' was coined and detailed by a specific outline. I simply used it for lack of a better word without having done the research to see what the word blast was referencing. My thoughts fell somewhere between Rea and medium length. I was going for 4-6 weeks assuming recovery would be easy becuase suppression will be minimal. I wasn't aiming for somethign like 2-3 weeks because obviously blasting and the micro cycles are extremes. for someone like me, i feel the gains will still be good enough not to risk the side effects of mega dosing for a 'blast.' of course as the body gets more and more accustomed to these changes, different techniques need to be employed (this is where one can move up to the full on 'blasting'). I am not ready to spend the cash on HGH becuase I do not think it is necessary for me. I am not trying to make this thread about me though. I was hoping to get a discussion going on all possible angles and scenarious of these concepts. (which is what is going on )

    because the prime makes gains that much better, It will still be something anyone should do (to whatever degree they choose).

    i agree that spending all sorts of cash on peptides may not be worth the $$ considering the androgens and slin being used. I do think that a little IGF-1 couldnt hurt. (I like IGF-1...) anyway. THis is a great discussion. Hope it keeps going.
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    Good read
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ...My thoughts fell somewhere between Rea and medium length. I was going for 4-6 weeks assuming recovery would be easy becuase suppression will be minimal....
    Well then you might be interested in the section of Rea's book Building the Perfect Beast where he talks about constructing a 30 day cycle. It is interesting that he leads with an androgen and closes with an anabolic.

    From his book discussing his Max Androgen Phase (pp 39-44) edited a bit for readability...Rea is very difficult to read

    PTOR (Protein Turn Over Rate) and Homeostasis

    The body normally maintains weight and size of all cellular structures through homeostasis (assuming that our discussion focus is our protein synthesis rate/PTOR). The body maintains homeostasis or balance by both building and destroying an equal amount of protein based tissue daily. In fact, most research states that the body both gains and loses protein bases tissue at a rate of bodyweight multiplied by 1.818 expressed in grams daily. So a 200 LB bodybuilder gains and loses 363.3 grams of protein bases tissue daily; 200 LBS x 1.818 = 363.3 grams. So a 200 LB bodybuilder has a PTOR of 363.3 grams.

    Homeostasis is controlled by hormones and hormone-like substances. Some are anabolic and create a state of protein synthesis and growth, while others are catabolic and create a state of protein destruction or waste. When chemical/hormone levels are balanced, or equal in Action/Reaction, there is a state of balance and no change we call homeostasis...

    To increase protein based tissue mass (Like uh, muscle) we must alter the ratio of "protein synthesis/protein wasting in favour of net total protein mass increase. This means triggering either anabolism (protein synthesis) in excess of catabolism (protein wasting) or decreasing protein wasting. Any substance that decreases the catabolic side of this ratio is considered anti-catabolic or protein sparing. If we could increase the anabolic side of this ratio 100% without altering the catabolic side, our 200 LB bodybuilder would realize a daily net increase in protein based tissue of 363.3 grams. If we decreased the catabolic side of the ratio 100% the result would be the same. Many chemical muscle enhancement substances possess both anabolic and anti-catabolic qualities in carious ratios.

    The goal of Frank's Max Androgen Phases was to stimulate protein synthesis on multiple levels through multiple metabolic pathways. By stimulating the muscle cell androgen receptor-sites, we triggered cellular protein synthesis signals. By inhibiting cortisol receptor-sites, we decreased catabolism.

    Also, by inducing a very high androgenic environment we allowed the musculature to significantly increase weight (strength) and work-load capacity. This was quite synergistic: We were able to train muscle more intensely. By increasing protein synthesis and decreasing protein wasting we were able to quickly repair the damage induced. With adequate macronutrient intake, we allowed for super over compensation or adaptation. The result was more muscle mass to carry greater work-loads. This was an adaptive process due to Action/Reaction Factors.

    Unfortunately, the body realized we had altered homeostasis and the PTOR all to quickly. The body began to react to our anabolic/androgenic steroid (anabolic steroids) induced alteration after two to three weeks and began its own catabolic counter measures as a means of re-establishing homeostasis. To do this the body stepped-up production of cortisol a bit and estrogen as well. Since estrogen triggers a negative feed-back loop that induces HPTA (Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Testes/Axis) inhibition, the result was little or no endogenous testosterone synthesis.

    Cortisol is a catabolic hormone that triggers cortisol receptor-sites. This results in protein wasting. If an anabolic steroids protocol ran too long, circulatory cortisol levels became elevated to a point where they equaled circulatory androgen activity even from exogenous sources. The result was homeostasis again. When the anabolic steroids protocol was discontinued and circulatory androgen levels decreased, the elevated cortisol levels overwhelmed the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of protein wasting. The result was the loss of most, if not all, lean mass tissue gains induced by the anabolic steroids protocol.
    Which sucked! We had to exit before this could happen.

    First things first: The Max Androgen Phases constructed for Frank were intended as a means of altering the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of net protein mass increase on a very significant level. To do this Frank needed a plan that took into account Action/Reaction Factors so that he could keep much more anabolic steroids induced muscle mass gains post-cycle to build further upon as we progressed.

    Okay, we know the body adapts by reaction to anabolic steroids beginning after 2-3 weeks. We know that some anabolic steroids aromatize to estrogen which needs to be checked and eliminated before we allow you to exit your anabolic steroids protocol, Frank. But we also know estrogen levels can actually enhance anabolic steroids results by several pathways including increased GH/IGF-1 production and increased muscle glycogen synthesis. We also know any androgenic induced muscle mass gains not solidified into high quality lean muscle tissue by a high anabolic environment will be lost quickly post-cycle.

    ...

    First, we got in, grew hard, and got out before Frank's body could mount adequate counter measures. This meant a time frame of 21-30 days. So no Max Androgen Phase (or any other protocol) could have had a high activity level beyond 30 days.
    We had to create a quick and elevated androgenic environment to quickly increase mass and strength. No time was wasted that would have allowed the body to catch up with its anti-muscle counter measures. We called this the "androgenic dominance period". We also had to allow a high anabolic moderate - low androgenic elevated environment to solidify Frank's mass gains into quality muscle. We called this the "anabolic dominance period".


    Most athletes have realized the greatest results and post-cycle lean mass retention when these two periods were about equal with an equal androgenic - to - anabolic transition period in between. Additionally, we had to create a long "most effective period" without significant inducing HPTA inhibition. Easy!

    Estrogen Control, NOT Elimination

    Estrogen control was paramount for health and long-term result potential. But estrogen can increase IGF-1 production too, which was good. Estrogen also increases androgen receptor-site sensitivity. So we wanted estrogen to run rampid for the first two weeks of Frank's Max Androgen Phases without allowing it to cause gyno and female pattern fat deposits.

    Simple: We used an estrogen antagonist to block receptor-sites but allowed plasma estrogen levels to remain high.
    Using Clomid as an example, it has been my experience that a novice anabolic steroids user required (if any) only 50 mg/d (50 mg per day). And an intermediate anabolic steroids user required 20-30 mg/d. An advanced anabolic steroids user commonly required 30-50 mg/d. A very advanced AAS user sometimes required 40-60 mg/d, and in most cases, some additional help from an aromatase inhibitor. The key was to watch for signs of gyno and female pattern fat deposits, while keeping a close eye on blood pressure. This was always of the utmost concern during the building of the perfect beast. High blood pressure can introduce a variety of long term and life threatening negative side effects.

    NOTE: Nolvadex decreases GH/IGF-1 synthesis and is therefore a poor choice as an estrogen antagonist.

    Things we have learned from experience...Estrogen levels were kept near normal or below before we exited the AAS protocols. So we added an estrogen aromatase inhibitor at about day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase to clear the system of excess estrogen before we exited. I have not noted many novice AAS/Max Androgen Phase users whom needed this precaution. But this was in relevance to dosages administered.

    Some intermediate AAS users opted for Arimidex 0.5-1.0 mg/d, or Proviron 50- 100 mg/d. Most advanced AAS users successfully utilized Arimidex 1.0-2.0 mg/d or Aromasin 50mg/d. This was, of course, unnecessary when a Cortisol/Estrogen Suppression Phase was layered in at the half-way point or beginning day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase.

    I have and will repeat this fact again and again: Any effective plasma threshold exceeded before it failed to provide results was a growth period lost. This was true of any chemical muscle enhancer. This is in fact why so many athletes reached only 50- 70 % of their potential. Receptor-site insensitivity (not AAS receptor sites) and the body learning new tricks to force homeostasis was the number one reason why we had often seen 220 LB 6 foot off-season bodybuilders using crazy dosages with poor results.

    Of course there are ways to beat this too that I created for Frank, but we will discuss that later. First let's look at what the basic threshold for results were when long term potential and permanent gains were to be realized. Since this section is about Frank's AAS protocols, let's focus upon them for now. Growth thresholds were established by plasma level in this discussion. Although there were several thresholds for each level of experience and drug, there were predictable ranges of dosages expressed in daily plasma levels we used as a basis.

    ...

    MAX ANDROGEN PHASE DOSAGES (EXAMPLES)
    (Actual Dosage of Androgen Minus Ester Weight)
    Novice -------------------------- Intermediate -------------------- Advanced ----------------------- Very Advanced
    1.0-2.0 mg/lb weekly --------- 2.0-3.5 mg/lb weekly ----------- 3.5-6.75 mg/lb weekly --------- 6.75-insanity mg/lb weekly
    31.25-62.5 mg/d plasma level - 62.5-125 mg/d plasma level ---- 125-250 mg/d plasma level ---- 250 mg/d plasma level
    218 mg-437.5 mg total weekly - 437.5 mg-875 mg total weekly - 875 mg-1 750 mg total weekly - Above 1750 mg total weekly


    As I said, these are the rough guide-lines I utilized and they assumed bodyweights of the following with below 12% bodyfat:

    Novices: 185-218 LBS
    Intermediates: 218-240 LBS
    Advanced: 240-265 LBS
    Very Advanced: 265 and up.

    Now that I have established some of the criteria utilized and incorporated into structuring protocols employed by Frank N. Steroid, it is time to discuss how it was applied.

    The examples that follow are not intended as a guide or endorsement. They are simply what they are: The synergistic protocols that were used to build the perfect beasts, and another piece of Frank's story.

    MY SUMMARY of his examples:

    The examples basically lead w/ an androgen only for days 1-10;
    overlap w/ both the androgen & an anabolic compound for days 11-20;
    closes w/ an anabolic only.

    His first example leads with a type of testosterone w/ a 10 day half-life and an active life of 20 days (Theramaex). This is his androgen for the "androgenic dominance period"

    He then follows with an anabolic, Durabolin which is brought in as plasma levels of testosterone (his androgen) decline so that by day 20 you only have the anabolic Durabolin in your system - "anabolic dominance period"

    This results in the first 50% of the 30 day cycle as androgenic and the second 50% of the 30 day cycle as anabolic.

    He also mentions changing the ratio for another 30 day cycle in favor of androgens by replacing testosterone w/ Anadrol-50 in a frontloaded protocol for 10 days before shifting to the anabolic compound. This has the effect of making the cycle 75% androgenic and 25% anabolic.

    Of course he goes on and on...but we've hit the high points.
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    Question, When he says 3-5 low carb days and 1 card up day What are the other 1-3 days? did i miss something?
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    Interesting... Keep it going guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Well then you might be interested in the section of Rea's book Building the Perfect Beast where he talks about constructing a 30 day cycle. It is interesting that he leads with an androgen and closes with an anabolic.

    From his book discussing his Max Androgen Phase (pp 39-44) edited a bit for readability...Rea is very difficult to read

    PTOR (Protein Turn Over Rate) and Homeostasis

    The body normally maintains weight and size of all cellular structures through homeostasis (assuming that our discussion focus is our protein synthesis rate/PTOR). The body maintains homeostasis or balance by both building and destroying an equal amount of protein based tissue daily. In fact, most research states that the body both gains and loses protein bases tissue at a rate of bodyweight multiplied by 1.818 expressed in grams daily. So a 200 LB bodybuilder gains and loses 363.3 grams of protein bases tissue daily; 200 LBS x 1.818 = 363.3 grams. So a 200 LB bodybuilder has a PTOR of 363.3 grams.

    Homeostasis is controlled by hormones and hormone-like substances. Some are anabolic and create a state of protein synthesis and growth, while others are catabolic and create a state of protein destruction or waste. When chemical/hormone levels are balanced, or equal in Action/Reaction, there is a state of balance and no change we call homeostasis...

    To increase protein based tissue mass (Like uh, muscle) we must alter the ratio of "protein synthesis/protein wasting in favour of net total protein mass increase. This means triggering either anabolism (protein synthesis) in excess of catabolism (protein wasting) or decreasing protein wasting. Any substance that decreases the catabolic side of this ratio is considered anti-catabolic or protein sparing. If we could increase the anabolic side of this ratio 100% without altering the catabolic side, our 200 LB bodybuilder would realize a daily net increase in protein based tissue of 363.3 grams. If we decreased the catabolic side of the ratio 100% the result would be the same. Many chemical muscle enhancement substances possess both anabolic and anti-catabolic qualities in carious ratios.

    The goal of Frank's Max Androgen Phases was to stimulate protein synthesis on multiple levels through multiple metabolic pathways. By stimulating the muscle cell androgen receptor-sites, we triggered cellular protein synthesis signals. By inhibiting cortisol receptor-sites, we decreased catabolism.

    Also, by inducing a very high androgenic environment we allowed the musculature to significantly increase weight (strength) and work-load capacity. This was quite synergistic: We were able to train muscle more intensely. By increasing protein synthesis and decreasing protein wasting we were able to quickly repair the damage induced. With adequate macronutrient intake, we allowed for super over compensation or adaptation. The result was more muscle mass to carry greater work-loads. This was an adaptive process due to Action/Reaction Factors.

    Unfortunately, the body realized we had altered homeostasis and the PTOR all to quickly. The body began to react to our anabolic/androgenic steroid (anabolic steroids) induced alteration after two to three weeks and began its own catabolic counter measures as a means of re-establishing homeostasis. To do this the body stepped-up production of cortisol a bit and estrogen as well. Since estrogen triggers a negative feed-back loop that induces HPTA (Hypothalamus/Pituitary/Testes/Axis) inhibition, the result was little or no endogenous testosterone synthesis.

    Cortisol is a catabolic hormone that triggers cortisol receptor-sites. This results in protein wasting. If an anabolic steroids protocol ran too long, circulatory cortisol levels became elevated to a point where they equaled circulatory androgen activity even from exogenous sources. The result was homeostasis again. When the anabolic steroids protocol was discontinued and circulatory androgen levels decreased, the elevated cortisol levels overwhelmed the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of protein wasting. The result was the loss of most, if not all, lean mass tissue gains induced by the anabolic steroids protocol.
    Which sucked! We had to exit before this could happen.

    First things first: The Max Androgen Phases constructed for Frank were intended as a means of altering the anabolic/catabolic ratio in favor of net protein mass increase on a very significant level. To do this Frank needed a plan that took into account Action/Reaction Factors so that he could keep much more anabolic steroids induced muscle mass gains post-cycle to build further upon as we progressed.

    Okay, we know the body adapts by reaction to anabolic steroids beginning after 2-3 weeks. We know that some anabolic steroids aromatize to estrogen which needs to be checked and eliminated before we allow you to exit your anabolic steroids protocol, Frank. But we also know estrogen levels can actually enhance anabolic steroids results by several pathways including increased GH/IGF-1 production and increased muscle glycogen synthesis. We also know any androgenic induced muscle mass gains not solidified into high quality lean muscle tissue by a high anabolic environment will be lost quickly post-cycle.

    ...

    First, we got in, grew hard, and got out before Frank's body could mount adequate counter measures. This meant a time frame of 21-30 days. So no Max Androgen Phase (or any other protocol) could have had a high activity level beyond 30 days.
    We had to create a quick and elevated androgenic environment to quickly increase mass and strength. No time was wasted that would have allowed the body to catch up with its anti-muscle counter measures. We called this the "androgenic dominance period". We also had to allow a high anabolic moderate - low androgenic elevated environment to solidify Frank's mass gains into quality muscle. We called this the "anabolic dominance period".


    Most athletes have realized the greatest results and post-cycle lean mass retention when these two periods were about equal with an equal androgenic - to - anabolic transition period in between. Additionally, we had to create a long "most effective period" without significant inducing HPTA inhibition. Easy!

    Estrogen Control, NOT Elimination

    Estrogen control was paramount for health and long-term result potential. But estrogen can increase IGF-1 production too, which was good. Estrogen also increases androgen receptor-site sensitivity. So we wanted estrogen to run rampid for the first two weeks of Frank's Max Androgen Phases without allowing it to cause gyno and female pattern fat deposits.

    Simple: We used an estrogen antagonist to block receptor-sites but allowed plasma estrogen levels to remain high.
    Using Clomid as an example, it has been my experience that a novice anabolic steroids user required (if any) only 50 mg/d (50 mg per day). And an intermediate anabolic steroids user required 20-30 mg/d. An advanced anabolic steroids user commonly required 30-50 mg/d. A very advanced anabolic steroids user sometimes required 40-60 mg/d, and in most cases, some additional help from an aromatase inhibitor. The key was to watch for signs of gyno and female pattern fat deposits, while keeping a close eye on blood pressure. This was always of the utmost concern during the building of the perfect beast. High blood pressure can introduce a variety of long term and life threatening negative side effects.

    NOTE: Nolvadex decreases GH/IGF-1 synthesis and is therefore a poor choice as an estrogen antagonist.

    Things we have learned from experience...Estrogen levels were kept near normal or below before we exited the AAS protocols. So we added an estrogen aromatase inhibitor at about day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase to clear the system of excess estrogen before we exited. I have not noted many novice AAS/Max Androgen Phase users whom needed this precaution. But this was in relevance to dosages administered.

    Some intermediate AAS users opted for Arimidex 0.5-1.0 mg/d, or Proviron 50- 100 mg/d. Most advanced AAS users successfully utilized Arimidex 1.0-2.0 mg/d or Aromasin 50mg/d. This was, of course, unnecessary when a Cortisol/Estrogen Suppression Phase was layered in at the half-way point or beginning day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase.

    I have and will repeat this fact again and again: Any effective plasma threshold exceeded before it failed to provide results was a growth period lost. This was true of any chemical muscle enhancer. This is in fact why so many athletes reached only 50- 70 % of their potential. Receptor-site insensitivity (not AAS receptor sites) and the body learning new tricks to force homeostasis was the number one reason why we had often seen 220 LB 6 foot off-season bodybuilders using crazy dosages with poor results.

    Of course there are ways to beat this too that I created for Frank, but we will discuss that later. First let's look at what the basic threshold for results were when long term potential and permanent gains were to be realized. Since this section is about Frank's AAS protocols, let's focus upon them for now. Growth thresholds were established by plasma level in this discussion. Although there were several thresholds for each level of experience and drug, there were predictable ranges of dosages expressed in daily plasma levels we used as a basis.

    ...

    MAX ANDROGEN PHASE DOSAGES (EXAMPLES)
    (Actual Dosage of Androgen Minus Ester Weight)
    Novice -------------------------- Intermediate -------------------- Advanced ----------------------- Very Advanced
    1.0-2.0 mg/lb weekly --------- 2.0-3.5 mg/lb weekly ----------- 3.5-6.75 mg/lb weekly --------- 6.75-insanity mg/lb weekly
    31.25-62.5 mg/d plasma level - 62.5-125 mg/d plasma level ---- 125-250 mg/d plasma level ---- 250 mg/d plasma level
    218 mg-437.5 mg total weekly - 437.5 mg-875 mg total weekly - 875 mg-1 750 mg total weekly - Above 1750 mg total weekly


    As I said, these are the rough guide-lines I utilized and they assumed bodyweights of the following with below 12% bodyfat:

    Novices: 185-218 LBS
    Intermediates: 218-240 LBS
    Advanced: 240-265 LBS
    Very Advanced: 265 and up.

    Now that I have established some of the criteria utilized and incorporated into structuring protocols employed by Frank N. Steroid, it is time to discuss how it was applied.

    The examples that follow are not intended as a guide or endorsement. They are simply what they are: The synergistic protocols that were used to build the perfect beasts, and another piece of Frank's story.

    MY SUMMARY of his examples:

    The examples basically lead w/ an androgen only for days 1-10;
    overlap w/ both the androgen & an anabolic compound for days 11-20;
    closes w/ an anabolic only.

    His first example leads with a type of testosterone w/ a 10 day half-life and an active life of 20 days (Theramaex). This is his androgen for the "androgenic dominance period"

    He then follows with an anabolic, Durabolin which is brought in as plasma levels of testosterone (his androgen) decline so that by day 20 you only have the anabolic Durabolin in your system - "anabolic dominance period"

    This results in the first 50% of the 30 day cycle as androgenic and the second 50% of the 30 day cycle as anabolic.

    He also mentions changing the ratio for another 30 day cycle in favor of androgens by replacing testosterone w/ Anadrol-50 in a frontloaded protocol for 10 days before shifting to the anabolic compound. This has the effect of making the cycle 75% androgenic and 25% anabolic.

    Of course he goes on and on...but we've hit the high points.

    I haven't read his book. But his thoughts align very closely with my own. Thank you for that post, it is very helpful. the one thing I dont understand is the half lives. I may have not read it carefully enough....but why would he even bother with longer esters? woudln't the cycle be much more controllable with short ester gear? we could still keep the 50/50 or 75/25 etc ratios....

    I see why he would use nandrolone over say, trenbolone (125:37 vs 500/500) A:A ratios would cause tren to be too androgenic for the latter end of the cycle. I believe the max androgen phase could be taken advantage of even more by combining both test and tren. and closing with a pure anabolic. (what are his specific reasons for closing with an anabolic and keeping the androgenicity lower than the first half?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by hman85 View Post
    Question, When he says 3-5 low carb days and 1 card up day What are the other 1-3 days? did i miss something?
    Taken from Warrior's logs:

    Generally, a cyclic ketogenic diet (CKD) works wonders - staying low carb for 3-4 days maximum, then carbing up. Again, the goal is to lean up but preserve current LBM.

    Here is an example split that I have used for successful priming:


    Day 1: Moderate Carb/Cardio
    Day 2: Low Carb/Upperbody Supersets
    Day 3: Low Carb/Lowerbody Supersets
    Day 4: Low Carb/Cardio
    Day 5: Low Carb/Full Body Workout (begin carb load after evening training)
    Day 6: Carb Load/No training
    Day 7: Moderate Carb/Power Training (Squat/Deads/Bench)
    Repeat

    How much cardio you do and how low you take your calories, is determined by your LBM and what you have learned about your metabolism and personal limitations.

    He goes on to recommend the following approach to transitioning the diet right into the steroid cycle:

    The last 4-5 days before the cycle starts should be low carb. On the day you carb up - you should begin the cycle. Testosterone and most of it's popular deriatives will make this carb load very effective - and glycogen supercompensation should occur very quickly... especially if you use short esters or frontload longer esters - to get blood levels up quickly. After this point your body will remain very responsive to the cycle and you should begin training hard - drop sets, rest-pause... go intense! You should feel ready for it. As always - keep a training log to maximize the growth window.

    I also think his following tip on carb loading is a good one:

    NOTE: Carb Loading - if you haven't ran a CKD before, remember that you need to deplete glycogen during the week so you can get the proper response from the carb loads. Be carefull of total calorie intake - if you go low carb, but eat too much - this will effect the depletion phase. During the carb load, stick to protein and carb food sources... if you have a craving to curb that is also high in fat, the best time to indulge is within the first several hours of the carb load - studies show fat gain during this time is very low... the body is more interested in replenishing itself than it is in storing fat. As you advance through the carb load - high fat food are more likely to be stored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    ....but why would he even bother with longer esters? woudln't the cycle be much more controllable with short ester gear?
    I agree. Rea has a tendency for using a lot of different types of drugs and steroids...often things that aren't available...when something more readily available would work just as well or better.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I believe the max androgen phase could be taken advantage of even more by combining both test and tren. and closing with a pure anabolic. (what are his specific reasons for closing with an anabolic and keeping the androgenicity lower than the first half?)
    I agree with you. I believe he claims that the anabolic phase will help you keep the muscle as you move into PCT...I think he calls it solidifying the gains. Also it will make the restoration of the HPTA easier/speedier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    I agree. Rea has a tendency for using a lot of different types of drugs and steroids...often things that aren't available...when something more readily available would work just as well or better.



    I agree with you. I believe he claims that the anabolic phase will help you keep the muscle as you move into post cycle therapy...I think he calls it solidifying the gains. Also it will make the restoration of the HPTA easier/speedier.
    yea that makes sense. I suppose it is "less supressive" than a hardcore androgen. But this isnt really true if you look at something like masteron. I personally do not know if this methodology will make the world of a difference. I think that it will be hard to find compounds to fill this 'anabolic dominance' period. When considering 'very anabolic' and 'minimally androgenic' substances only many orals come to mind. (considering we dont want long half lives IMO).

    What about this: if using Test and Tren as the max androgen phase (probably the strongest combo we can do with common gear) then anabolic period can include dropping the tren (since its advised to drop tren prior test when approaching PCT/coming off) and filling tren's place with a very anabolic oral. then maybe taper the test (by the day since its propionate) and proportionally compensate for the lower test with that very anabolic oral. now we can look at primobolan acetate (which isnt very anabolic but compared to its androgenic ratio it is-also primo is known to not be very suppressive so this could work to our benefit.) due to the price and limited short term effect of primo (esp acetate which would need to be taken at around 200+ mg to accomplish our goal here) we may want to look at something else (maybe a ph? I mean...Im not fond of designers but epistane for example is "extremely anabolic" compared to its androgenic profile). these two orals mentioned are not very harsh or toxic so that also rules out some unwanted side effects.
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    btw...i disagree with the use of nandrolone whether it be very anabolic or not (for ending this type of cycle that is). even if its androgenic profile is low, that shouldnt be the only basis on which its concluded that nandrolone deconate isnt suppressive. by other modes of action it is known to be very suprressive and come with a whole host of sexual problems. Also, quick high doses of deca may have a rebound effect as far as gyno is concerned becuase of a disturbance in the whole 'progesterone thread currently being debated in the supplement forum )
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    yea that makes sense.
    Does it? To be honest I am not a Rea fan. But I think bigpetefox has used this "start w/ an androgen close w/ an anabolic" strategy.

    Personally I don't really buy into playing w/ to many compounds for such a short cycle. For myself I would just use testosterone and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    What about this: if using Test and Tren as the max androgen phase (probably the strongest combo we can do with common gear) then anabolic period can include dropping the tren (since its advised to drop tren prior test when approaching post cycle therapy/coming off) and filling tren's place with a very anabolic oral. then maybe taper the test (by the day since its propionate) and proportionally compensate for the lower test with that very anabolic oral.
    If I tolerated tren well (which I don't) then I would do this BUT I wouldn't use an oral at the end. I'd just go Tren/Test at the front end and nothing but Test on the back end. The cycle is so short (at 4 weeks)...of course this violates Rea's protocol...

    I don't think I'd use a prohormone on the back end...if I went w/ an oral it would be Dbol (and a nice dose of an AI which would reduce estrogen just prior to PCT).

    I'd say rather then be forced to use a specific compound, go w/ those compounds you feel will maxamize gains & speed recovery. Just the fact that the cycle is so short should help recovery.

    Also IGF-1 can contribute to recovery smoother...
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    btw...i disagree with the use of nandrolone whether it be very anabolic or not (for ending this type of cycle that is). even if its androgenic profile is low, that shouldnt be the only basis on which its concluded that nandrolone deconate isnt suppressive. by other modes of action it is known to be very suprressive and come with a whole host of sexual problems. Also, quick high doses of deca may have a rebound effect as far as gyno is concerned becuase of a disturbance in the whole 'progesterone thread currently being debated in the supplement forum )
    Welcome to the very strange world of A. L. Rea! He is a very good read to create food for thought but as far as following his protocols exactly...you pretty much have to create your own and adopt only what makes sense to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Welcome to the very strange world of A. L. Rea! He is a very good read to create food for thought but as far as following his protocols exactly...you pretty much have to create your own and adopt only what makes sense to you.
    yea now that I think about it...only the concept that I originally didnt need Rea to think of makes real sense. that and the whole estrogen and protein turnover concepts (which are not unique to Rea). Anyway...

    I was thinking what you had said prior (about just dropping tren and ending cycle on test. BUT like you also affirmed its only 3-4 weeks. so...we obviously want to end with compounds that are much less suppressive and hopefully more anabolic than those with which we started. I dont like orals either but they do have their place in certain situations. Plus we are only talking about 1-2 weeks of oral. I seem to respond well to tren-like ph's ps's but we will see when I go for tren ace. (probably a much different experience).


    I think (speaking on behalf of what I would probably do) that even we shifted the ratio to 75:25 (according to Rea) and dropped tren week 3 of 4, (or 2 of 3) then we may miss out on maximizing gains. yes it is only 1 week that the tren is done and clearing and we are using only test, but its 1 week out of 3 or 4, not 10-12. That week is still very important to take full advantage of.

    what is your reasoning for not wanting to fill the gap with a very anabolic oral (also, for conversation sake, what do you think would be a good [for yourself or anyone] choice of oral considering the many known compounds and their properties. the only reason i ask is becuase you mentioned dbol, but I was wondering if you had other compounds that you think would also fit well here.
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    From my reading highly anabolic and low androgenic orals such as: superdrol(yes theres superdrol again), Turinabol, M4ohn, primo, winny??-i do notice shedding though...so not sure on this one,

    Tren+test->drop the tren->continue the test and add superdrol is what i'd do if i wanted to add a very anabolic oral w/ no estrogenic properties and little androgenic properties. prob toss in an AI during that last week or few days to supress any estrogen conversion from the test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    I think (speaking on behalf of what I would probably do) that even we shifted the ratio to 75:25 (according to Rea) and dropped tren week 3 of 4, (or 2 of 3) then we may miss out on maximizing gains. yes it is only 1 week that the tren is done and clearing and we are using only test, but its 1 week out of 3 or 4, not 10-12. That week is still very important to take full advantage of.
    I agree. I would want to maxamize the use of the tren and skew the ratio toward androgens...if I tolerated tren well. My brother tolerates it very well and doesn't even need to use test w/ it and it works for him. You probably will do well w/ tren as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    what is your reasoning for not wanting to fill the gap with a very anabolic oral (also, for conversation sake, what do you think would be a good [for yourself or anyone] choice of oral considering the many known compounds and their properties. the only reason i ask is becuase you mentioned dbol, but I was wondering if you had other compounds that you think would also fit well here.
    My reasoning is simply that in that short of a time span I don't need 3 different compounds to maxamize growth. I grow very well with testosterone...and I tolerate it very very very well (hmmmm I just thought of something...my brother doesn't tolerate testosterone too well but really digs on tren....just the opposite of me...I don't know what that means...just an observation). I'm not sure I'd benefit from adding an oral over increasing my dose of test.

    On long cycles I have found that adding on oral on top of the test in the middle of the cycle (where gains slowed) gave me a new boost in gains...thats where I've usually used them.

    Why DBol as the oral for a Rea cycle? DBol is very anabolic. It is a terrific oral in my opinion. The extra water will enable you to lift more and sooth the joints after you have spent the first few weeks pushing the poundages very quickly due to the heavy dose of tren. For me personally it really enhances my mood. (Test, Deca & DBol are the 3 compounds that never fail to make me very happy). It acts quickly as well and doesn't need to build up to be effective.

    The worry I would have w/ prohormones is that they may not be strong enough and more importantly they seem to need to build up for a week or so to be effective.

    The choices on the compounds you make are real subjective though. The decision depends primarily on how you react to the compounds based on prior use and what you have available. It is far easier for me to be able to predict the outcome of my cycle based on the dosage of a single compound then it is if I use a variety of compounds. Test at 600mg/week vs 750mg/week makes a big difference to me, while 1 gram+ run for shorter times will begin to maxamize my results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    I agree. I would want to maxamize the use of the tren and skew the ratio toward androgens...if I tolerated tren well. My brother tolerates it very well and doesn't even need to use test w/ it and it works for him. You probably will do well w/ tren as well.



    My reasoning is simply that in that short of a time span I don't need 3 different compounds to maxamize growth. I grow very well with testosterone...and I tolerate it very very very well (hmmmm I just thought of something...my brother doesn't tolerate testosterone too well but really digs on tren....just the opposite of me...I don't know what that means...just an observation). I'm not sure I'd benefit from adding an oral over increasing my dose of test.

    On long cycles I have found that adding on oral on top of the test in the middle of the cycle (where gains slowed) gave me a new boost in gains...thats where I've usually used them.

    Why DBol as the oral for a Rea cycle? DBol is very anabolic. It is a terrific oral in my opinion. The extra water will enable you to lift more and sooth the joints after you have spent the first few weeks pushing the poundages very quickly due to the heavy dose of tren. For me personally it really enhances my mood. (Test, Deca & DBol are the 3 compounds that never fail to make me very happy). It acts quickly as well and doesn't need to build up to be effective.

    The worry I would have w/ prohormones is that they may not be strong enough and more importantly they seem to need to build up for a week or so to be effective.

    The choices on the compounds you make are real subjective though. The decision depends primarily on how you react to the compounds based on prior use and what you have available. It is far easier for me to be able to predict the outcome of my cycle based on the dosage of a single compound then it is if I use a variety of compounds. Test at 600mg/week vs 750mg/week makes a big difference to me, while 1 gram+ run for shorter times will begin to maxamize my results.
    you really see that big of a difference with 150mg extra a week?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    you really see that big of a difference with 150mg extra a week?
    It wasn't always so but at this stage of my life it makes a difference. For me it feels like they are two different levels rather then just a 150mg increase. My results exceed what you would expect if you use a linear linear equation to anticipate results. This is specific to testosterone though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    I agree. I would want to maxamize the use of the tren and skew the ratio toward androgens...if I tolerated tren well. My brother tolerates it very well and doesn't even need to use test w/ it and it works for him. You probably will do well w/ tren as well.



    My reasoning is simply that in that short of a time span I don't need 3 different compounds to maxamize growth. I grow very well with testosterone...and I tolerate it very very very well (hmmmm I just thought of something...my brother doesn't tolerate testosterone too well but really digs on tren....just the opposite of me...I don't know what that means...just an observation). I'm not sure I'd benefit from adding an oral over increasing my dose of test.

    On long cycles I have found that adding on oral on top of the test in the middle of the cycle (where gains slowed) gave me a new boost in gains...thats where I've usually used them.

    Why DBol as the oral for a Rea cycle? DBol is very anabolic. It is a terrific oral in my opinion. The extra water will enable you to lift more and sooth the joints after you have spent the first few weeks pushing the poundages very quickly due to the heavy dose of tren. For me personally it really enhances my mood. (Test, Deca & DBol are the 3 compounds that never fail to make me very happy). It acts quickly as well and doesn't need to build up to be effective.

    The worry I would have w/ prohormones is that they may not be strong enough and more importantly they seem to need to build up for a week or so to be effective.

    The choices on the compounds you make are real subjective though. The decision depends primarily on how you react to the compounds based on prior use and what you have available. It is far easier for me to be able to predict the outcome of my cycle based on the dosage of a single compound then it is if I use a variety of compounds. Test at 600mg/week vs 750mg/week makes a big difference to me, while 1 gram+ run for shorter times will begin to maxamize my results.
    soma: I agree that the properties of superdrol would allow it to work well in this situation. HOWEVER it is sooo harsh (on me at least) I will never use it again. Also, like DatBtrue said...it does take time to build up as most ph's do.

    I agree that after a '75%' androgen run with test and tren, the dbol would help smooth things out. (mood, joints, gains etc.) the only 'problem' (for some) would be that it literally smooths things out. aside from aesthetically, the extra estro conversion from dbol (on top of whatever estro is floating around from the test), may lead to a problem when all the compounds are dropped. Unless we use a good dose of AI which could be hard to determine. and then like you mentioned, yet ANOTHER drug needing to be processed. I wonder if using trans-reserveratrol in a higher dose, with something like dermacrine sustain would suffice as a natural method.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    What you want is fast acting compounds; that hit the androgen receptors hard; enable you to make some solid gains; minimize sides; and clear quickly.

    The following stacks meet your requirements:

    Test Prop/Tren Ace
    Test Prop/Tren Ace/Winny
    Test Prop/Anadrol
    Test Prop/Dbol
    First of all I'd like to say that this is a very informative thread. I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by PCT. They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren. I gained 28 lbs!!!! I'm not kidding either as I had just finished a cutting cycle 2.5 months prior and was looking to seriously bulk.

    Incidentally, I hadn't kept up w/ my calories prior to this cycle due to a heavy school load. When I got my gear, I started eating like a mad man for a couple of days before I even pinned myself.
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    Also, PCT was so easy that I managed to keep all but 8 lbs for over 7 months
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    First of all I'd like to say that this is a very informative thread. I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by post cycle therapy. They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren. I gained 28 lbs!!!! I'm not kidding either as I had just finished a cutting cycle 2.5 months prior and was looking to seriously bulk.

    Incidentally, I hadn't kept up w/ my calories prior to this cycle due to a heavy school load. When I got my gear, I started eating like a mad man for a couple of days before I even pinned myself.
    how long did each blast cycle last?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfearl1 View Post
    how long did each blast cycle last?
    Roughly 4 weeks.

    The first one (DBOL/Test) I tapered the test down so it was really like 5 weeks. I did this because I was afraid of sudden weight loss coming off 2 compounds immediately, especially associated w/ DBOL ending @ the 4week mark.

    Test/Tren was run at 4 weeks simply because I only had a 4 week supply of tren. I believe the test/dbol helped with massive gains, while test/tren got my body accustomed to the new weight gain & added some pounds as well.

    EX. I dropped about 6 lbs (water) after the DBOL/Test . With Test/Tren I regained those 6lbs + 4 additional lbs and didn't have any water retention.
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    I don't know if this was covered more in detail yet, but wouldn't NPP (Nandrolone PhenylPropionate,short acting ester) be a great alternative to tren?
    Like maybe 2 week Test Prop/NPP run,
    this way,you have the benefit of easier joints and less shut down?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX01 View Post
    I don't know if this was covered more in detail yet, but wouldn't NPP (Nandrolone PhenylPropionate,short acting ester) be a great alternative to tren?
    Like maybe 2 week Test Prop/NPP run,
    this way,you have the benefit of easier joints and less shut down?
    NPP (aka Durabolin) is very anabolic and was actually used in Rea's first example for the "anabolic phase". A testosterone blend was what he used in that example for the "androgen phase".

    I like your combo Test Prop/NPP. Your thinking is primo!

    Speaking of Primo, Pudz you mentioned primo as a transition compound well in rereading Rea he mentions it as well and gave his reason for it:

    Another common beast utilized option for example was the addition of a high anabolic /low androgenic such as Primobolan to create a second step in transition from high androgenic to high anabolic periods. This would have been best utilized if Frank was one of those athletes who either lost post-cycle lean mass more easily than others, or if he had suffered HPTA suppression on a serious level even when employing such brief protocols.
    ...
    No doubt some would say this was useless. I say they have not dealt with the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    ...I had the luxury of running 2 blast cycles last year separated by post cycle therapy.
    Interesting...so do you think your approach was more beneficial as far as (1) gains & (2) final recovery then a combined longer cycle (w/ no PCT in the middle)?

    You so often hear guys say once you are supressed you might as well just stay on...and if you are just going to go right back on then why bother w/ a PCT. So I am curious what your thoughts are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kata1yst View Post
    They were Test Prop w/ DBOL, followed by Test Prop & Tren.
    The first one is as Rea recommends (i.e. closing w/ an anabolic) but the second closes w/ an even heavier androgen.

    But you recovered well right? So maybe closing w/ the anabolic is really only beneficial to those that based on prior cycle history have a hard time keeping gains & recovering. For all others closing w/ an androgen might be okay (perhaps even preferential).

    Thanks for sharing you experience...
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    NPP (aka Durabolin) is very anabolic and was actually used in Rea's first example for the "anabolic phase". A testosterone blend was what he used in that example for the "androgen phase".

    I like your combo Test Prop/NPP. Your thinking is primo!

    Speaking of Primo, Pudz you mentioned primo as a transition compound well in rereading Rea he mentions it as well and gave his reason for it:

    Another common beast utilized option for example was the addition of a high anabolic /low androgenic such as Primobolan to create a second step in transition from high androgenic to high anabolic periods. This would have been best utilized if Frank was one of those athletes who either lost post-cycle lean mass more easily than others, or if he had suffered HPTA suppression on a serious level even when employing such brief protocols.
    ...
    No doubt some would say this was useless. I say they have not dealt with the problem.


    yea NPP would be ideal! although it seems much harder to come by. at least as far as my resources are concerned. I suggested primo by comparing all benefits/properties of the compound. Minimally suppressive under most conditions, much more anabolic than androgenic, would help prevent and smooth out the highly aromatizing compounds (test or test+dbol).

    well since hte test NPP would most likely be ideal (for most people and on PAPER), lets just put that aside and consider other options. Obviously it isnt hard to piece together the androgenic closing. we could clearly just stick with test and tren , or just drop the tren at the 75% mark and keep the test.


    what would seem ideal (FOR ME-for sake of discussion) would be a 75:25 (androgen:anabolic) run of test prop/tren ace, and then cut out the tren at the 75% point, and replace with a highly anabolic oral whilst TAPERING off the test. (tapering has been tried and true for me and IMO. so obviously dbol is a possible choice. now is 2-3 weeks of dbol create enough estro conversion to worry about using an AI? we now have someone who can attest to saying no from experience. but, if one were to start bloating, then an AI should probably be used. OR we can consider another compound altogether (or even adding some primo or proviron).

    pro vs con: primo is not as anabolic as other compounds, BUT it is also remarkably less supressive, and provides much more quality gains. It can also prevent us from using an AI to keep test bloat down. (like Rea said: a transition). but is primo strong enough to yield anything when used as the sole anabolic compound for such a short time? (along with the test of course)? It may not be....... and if used, we would probably be looking at 200+mg


    options, options......
  

  
 

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