Burst cycliing

[pudzian2]

I just wanted to say,this is a great thread Pudz.Dat,your input
truly shows your dedication to the sport.
Yes, since NPP isn't that obtainable,and cycling down the tren
as you mentioned,I'm curious about EPI as well.I agree with you on the moon face water bloat sides w/d-bol,plus,my BP shoots though the roof on it.
I know that Turin(Halo+clones) was mentioned earlier,and my question is,would these milder compounds negate the purposes of these kinds of cycles?Or possibly Anavar?

thank you for the kind words man. It is just hard to say what the effects of something like turinabol/halo clones truly add instead of not using them altogether. I think that halo would be out for me. During this anabolic dominance period we want to keep the side effects to a minimum. (which is why an alternative to dbol could be good for some) halo tends to be bad on the lipids, and in higher doses, probably notably more liver toxic than taking say, 50mg of epistane. personally (from experience) epistane works very well and I have to really try for it to shut me down hard if at all. so considering its very anabolic nature, AI properties, lack of severe HPTA suppression, mild liver toxicity (for an oral), and mild effects on other systems, it would seem very favorable for a situation like this. now, of course this seems well on paper....but I wonder if it will work well with the cycle idea.

it is also more easily obtained...and its AI benefits at 10mg-low dose- taken through the cycle could negate the use of a synthetic AI like arimidex/aromasin/letrozole etc. If one is still sensitive to bloat and other estro sides from high doses of test, then in addition to the epistane, something like dermacrine sustain and some trans-reserveratrol could be added to the cycle naturally to keep things in check (as mentioned earlier I think)

 

[FX01]

thank you for the kind words man. It is just hard to say what the effects of something like turinabol/halo clones truly add instead of not using them altogether. I think that halo would be out for me. During this anabolic dominance period we want to keep the side effects to a minimum. (which is why an alternative to dbol could be good for some) halo tends to be bad on the lipids, and in higher doses, probably notably more liver toxic than taking say, 50mg of epistane. personally (from experience) epistane works very well and I have to really try for it to shut me down hard if at all. so considering its very anabolic nature, AI properties, lack of severe HPTA suppression, mild liver toxicity (for an oral), and mild effects on other systems, it would seem very favorable for a situation like this. now, of course this seems well on paper....but I wonder if it will work well with the cycle idea.

it is also more easily obtained...and its AI benefits at 10mg-low dose- taken through the cycle could negate the use of a synthetic AI like arimidex/aromasin/letrozole etc. If one is still sensitive to bloat and other estro sides from high doses of test, then in addition to the epistane, something like dermacrine sustain and some trans-reserveratrol could be added to the cycle naturally to keep things in check (as mentioned earlier I think)

Thats what it's all about,speaking of EPI,and the others..Everyone reacts differently to each and every compound.This definitly takes on a different aproach(using d-bol)at the end of a cycle, as opposed to the typical cycle.When you really think about it,this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.

 

[Kata1yst]

since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard.... in addition to your estrogen control, do you think a shot of 500IU or two shots at 250IU of a little HCG would also help with recovery? Personally I wouldn't cycle without HCG (but this is also referring to longer cylces)

I'm pretty sure it would, but I'll probably not do a cycle like that for a long time. I'm 25 (26 in a couple of weeks) and wonder the repercussions of stacking everything right now. What kind of cycle would I have to do in 10 years just to keep up? Besides, a burst cycle is set up so you would recover faster anyways. I'd leave the HCG to the longer cycles.

 

[Kata1yst]

since you claim (for yourself at least) that the 2 ish week mark is when you start to shut down hard....

Just wanted to clear some things up...I'm sure I still produce a bit of test, but after the two week mark I always notice significant testicular atrophy. Luckily they always bounce back!

 

[pudzian2]

Thats what it's all about,speaking of EPI,and the others..Everyone reacts differently to each and every compound.This definitly takes on a different aproach(using d-bol)at the end of a cycle, as opposed to the typical cycle.When you really think about it,this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.

well actually. this method is designed to yield all/most of the benefits of longer cycles, without all of the side effects and hastle. Just because people started using gear for longer periods of time thinking it would work better, and this has become the "norm", doesnt mean that it is the safest or most efficient. We are talking about hormones here. Just like anything else, the body regulates its own hormones and WILL result in homeostatic equilibrium.

in simple terms, the less time ON, the the less risk of long term sides such as liver stress, lipid changes, decreased fertility etc.

LIke many have noticed, most gains come very soon after the compounds have kicked in (so very early in the cycle)....if they were to continue at that rate then I assure people could go on gear for 20 weeks expecting to gain more and more weight. When you hear back from many of these people (myself having the same prior experiences), they dont have a whole lot more gains then they did from their initial few weeks. yes, maybe staying on can help solidify and sculpt the gains, but at the expense of all of those other side effects that result from longer time periods of androgen replacement?

in fact, the interest here is to use much LESS gear during the year. These gains should be much more maintainable. ok so it seems great on paper right? maybe it wont workout so flawlessly? BUT the science is there, so if primed, ready, focused, organized, etc. then Im sure most if not all of what has been discussed will apply. I think that these little burst cycles can be more infrequent and only done when a natural plateau is reached. Considering its rather easy to do a 4 week cycle with full intensity etc, and then recover easily, keep training and then when ya hit a wall, run another. I mean it sure beats feeling so run down after a long cycle, and trying to train past full intensity for 20 weeks. The body gets tired (joints, organs, drive etc).Of course bloodowork can really assure that you are recovering as well as projected, and if not then the strategies can be tweaked.

for some, this idea may not be favorable. But I believe that for someone like me, it would be. And that is why this discussion continues; Because this thread is attracting people who are also interested in a different method of using gear.

someone may need 6-8, someone else may only need 3-4. It depends on the individual and their goals. The cool thing is, that this makes it much easier to plan for a contest, this way you dont have use even more gear just to be ON while entering a contest (assuming its not tested). There is also some non scientific credibility to this method from observing successful professionals who follow admit to using similar protocols, such as dorian yates, lee priest etc.


the issue about stacking 'all these things' at once doesn't make sense to me. I mean say we just use hormones (steroids), and follow the test, tren, epi protocol above. that is 3 compounds working in synergy with each other for 3-4 short weeks. the only thing is they are in higher doses. BUT these doses arent ridiculously high. I dont think its about having to stack more and more, I think its about careful planning and choosing compounds that are synergistic. the addition of insulin or slin+igf-1+(gh booster like pGH) could add a few lbs LBM and also add their benefits to the physique and cycle. all of those things function on a different spectrum than the HPTA that is being influenced by the AA steroids, and its not like we are combining 6 AA steroids.

 

[neoborn]

I must admit this makes a heck of a lot of sense to me! I have watched many Epistane / Epi cycles to see that most (usually, not a hard and fast rule) experience as you say the majority of the gains in the short period just after starting cycle.

I must truly admit I am no guru of anything really but sometimes I do notice the obvious , for instance the bodies natural hormones throughout the days and weeks fluctuate like biorhythm's etc so this, for me, makes pulsing etc logical.

Not to take this thread off track but can you guys help answer:

1. Why is it apparently so important to get the blood level of the actives stable and constant? I have heard a few people say that you need to get a steady dosing in to make it work best. This is opposite to my great experience with pulsing. Obviously controlling any kind of estrogen rollercoaster is important.

2. What is Tren Ace and is it an injectable? Why does it have to be part of this stack?

I really like the idea of doing a cycle with Test and Epistane. My Dr. would be open to my requests I believe, which is the best Test to use for this purpose? I see most use Cyp or Enan.

Thanks and awesome thread, a very enjoyable read all of you guys.

 

[datBtrue]

1. Why is it apparently so important to get the blood level of the actives stable and constant? I have heard a few people say that you need to get a steady dosing in to make it work best. This is opposite to my great experience with pulsing. Obviously controlling any kind of estrogen rollercoaster is important.

Actually Bobo adressed that here a few years ago and he argued that it didn't matter that much because you can't control when anabolism will occur. I wish I could find it but Bobo has changed his name so it is hard to find his old posts.

2. What is Tren Ace and is it an injectable?

Tren Ace is short for Trenbolone Acetate. To quote Bill Roberts "Trenbolone is a steroid having the advantages of undergoing no adverse metabolism, not being affected by aromatase or 5alpha-reductase; of being very potent Class I steroid binding well to the androgen receptor; and having a short half life, probably no more than a day or two..."

Why does it have to be part of this stack?

It doesn't. It is just a very strong androgen. I myself prefer not to use it and would opt for testosterone. The goal was to make the front part of the cycle more androgenic and the back part more anabolic so that is the framework for discussion of compounds.

...which is the best Test to use for this purpose? I see most use Cyp or Enan.

Testosterone propionate has the advantage of building up quicker & clearing quicker. But that means more frequent shots. Testosterone Cypionate and Enanthate take longer to build up & to clear...so if they are used it must be upfront (perhaps frontloaded as well) and discontinued 2 and 2.5 weeks before the cycle ends. Test prop could be continued till the end.

 

[datBtrue]

Here is a thread started by Size back in 2004 titled "Short cycles, some thoughts" http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/18318-short-cycles-some.html It continued for 6 pages and concluded in 2006.

If you guys have the time it makes for interesting reading.

I really really enjoyed reading the article posted by Size in the 10th post. It was an article writen by MuscleTrainee in 2002 describing exactly how the Europeans run short and frequent cycles to great effect. It is interesting that it covers a lot of what we talked about and then adds a lot more...it is a long read but well worth it if you have the time. Maybe even print it out and read it at your convienence.

 

[datBtrue]

...this cyling approach may not give you the fastest gains,but if done properly,they can yield good keepable gains in the long term.Feasibly,one could run maybe 6-8 minny cycles through 1 years time,and put on just as much lean mass as compared to a typical cycle,without the crash.

That is exactly how it has traditionally been done. You are spot on with that insight.

Check out the article posted by Size in a thread here on short-cyles started years ago. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/18318-short-cycles-some.html#post165864 It was written in 2002 by a European and he describes how they run a series of mini-cycles throughout the year, which compounds and why (they liked tren and he explains why they don't use test much). Very good read.

 

[pudzian2]

Here is a thread started by Size back in 2004 titled "Short cycles, some thoughts" http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/18318-short-cycles-some.html It continued for 6 pages and concluded in 2006.

If you guys have the time it makes for interesting reading.

I really really enjoyed reading the article posted by Size in the 10th post. It was an article writen by MuscleTrainee in 2002 describing exactly how the Europeans run short and frequent cycles to great effect. It is interesting that it covers a lot of what we talked about and then adds a lot more...it is a long read but well worth it if you have the time. Maybe even print it out and read it at your convienence.

thanks for the link man! what is your opinion on the epistane discussion above>?

 

[FX01]

the issue about stacking 'all these things' at once doesn't make sense to me. I mean say we just use hormones (steroids), and follow the test, tern, Pei protocol above. that is 3 compounds working in synergy with each other for 3-4 short weeks. the only thing is they are in higher doses. BUT these doses aren't ridiculously high. I dint think its about having to stack more and more, I think its about careful planning and choosing compounds that are synergistic. the addition of insulin or slain+if-1+(gh booster like pGH) could add a few lbs LBM and also add their benefits to the physique and cycle. all of those things function on a different spectrum than the HPTA that is being influenced by the AA steroids, and its not like we are combining 6 AA steroids.

I agree.The planning of different compounds(sticking with 2-3
compounds per cycle) and then switching to others on the next run would keep the gains comming.The body grows,but before total adaptation, there's the time off cycle,and then it's fed a different compound(or compounds), and future growth begins (Within many parameters such as genetics,protein absorption ratios,etc.)
I kinda see it as having your cake and eating it too.

We now have DR D's pulse methods, these short blast/minies, and the traditional 10-12 week protocol,pretty cool stuff!

 

[FX01]

Tren Ace is short for Trenbolone Acetate. To quote Bill Roberts "Trenbolone is a steroid having the advantages of undergoing no adverse metabolism, not being affected by aromatase or 5alpha-reductase; of being very potent Class I steroid binding well to the androgen receptor; and having a short half life, probably no more than a day or two..."

I have to say,I loved Tren.I remember the 1st home brews I made with Component TH belts and animals kits years back.
So many people talk about the harsh sides from fina,but I never had them.The only thing I ever felt was unreal strength,a great sense of well being,and a constant woody.

 

[pudzian2]

I agree.The planning of different compounds(sticking with 2-3
compounds per cycle) and then switching to others on the next run would keep the gains comming.The body grows,but before total adaptation, there's the time off cycle,and then it's fed a different compound(or compounds), and future growth begins (Within many parameters such as genetics,protein absorption ratios,etc.)
I kinda see it as having your cake and eating it too.

We now have DR D's pulse methods, these short blast/minies, and the traditional 10-12 week protocol,pretty cool stuff!

I think its imperative to continue to question every norm in the sense that as our understanding of certain sciences improve, we can manipulate strategies altogether.

 

[neoborn]

Thanks for the answers guys.

If you were able to talk to a Dr. to ask for what you wanted in a blast cycle, what products would you ask for and how much total for a cycle.

I am going to see in the future if my Dr. will let me do my own injections as well.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[pudzian2]

Thanks for the answers guys.

If you were able to talk to a Dr. to ask for what you wanted in a blast cycle, what products would you ask for and how much total for a cycle.

I am going to see in the future if my Dr. will let me do my own injections as well.

Much Love,

Neoborn

does your doctor consider you an "HRT" patient for legit or 'favor' reasons if at all? (maybe dont say on the boards haha)...but anyway well when I do mine it will be like this:

test prop: 1000mg/week
Tren Ace(first 75% of cycle): 100-125mg ED (probably 100mg)
Epistane: first 75% of cycle:10mg ED, last 25% of cycle: 50-60mg ED
humalog: 10IU PWO
IGF-1: 10mcg PWO or 20mcg EOD
pGH: max dose (if multiple shots, 1 shot PWO)

this cycle may be a little dry. but if we keep a synthetic AI out, then the epi should help control estro to the point where any other hopefully will be used by joints.

if I bloat/get gyn symptoms I will have aromasin and SERMS on hand but probably try trans-reserveratrol and dermacrine sustain as a first resort

anyone think that I am at serious hypoglycemia risk? any suggestions if so>?

 

[drewh10987]

does your doctor consider you an "HRT" patient for legit or 'favor' reasons if at all? (maybe dont say on the boards haha)...but anyway well when I do mine it will be like this:

test prop: 1000mg/week
Tren Ace(first 75% of cycle): 100-125mg ED (probably 100mg)
Epistane: first 75% of cycle:10mg ED, last 25% of cycle: 50-60mg ED
humalog: 10IU PWO
IGF-1: 10mcg PWO or 20mcg EOD
pGH: max dose (if multiple shots, 1 shot PWO)

this cycle may be a little dry. but if we keep a synthetic AI out, then the epi should help control estro to the point where any other hopefully will be used by joints.

if I bloat/get gyn symptoms I will have aromasin and SERMS on hand but probably try trans-reserveratrol and dermacrine sustain as a first resort

anyone think that I am at serious hypoglycemia risk? any suggestions if so>?

I don't know enough about insulin to answer your hypoglycemia question, but if you do decide to run a cycle similar to this one please log it. I would love to see your results. Everything else looks good to me and the science behind it is certainly solid.

 

[pudzian2]

I don't know enough about insulin to answer your hypoglycemia question, but if you do decide to run a cycle similar to this one please log it. I would love to see your results. Everything else looks good to me and the science behind it is certainly solid.

I would probably be fine shooting just 10IU slin with 10IU IGF-1, but I dont know if the pGH will add or interact to cause exaggerated hypoglycemia. I mean....I have used slin before very cautiously and I know how i react so I could sense if something was out of the ordinary. I definitely will log it. I project doing a cycle such as this and having it last 4 weeks. I will then gauge recovery time, and see how the time after recovery is (as far as quality of training, mood, how my body feels etc.) I hope I can stretch it so it works out to be about 4 weeks ON, 4 weeks recovery (hopefully the actual 'recovery' [a better way of putting it would be: a return to the somewhat interrupted state of homeostasis.] only takes about 1-2 weeks MAX) and then the latter two weeks would just be there as a cushion. I would then hope to get about 4-6 weeks (or more) of training w.o gear, and then going back ON should be a breeze.

I do not think that changing the compounds just because we use them in a prior cycle is necessary. I mean, if they werent strong enough, or the cycle didnt go as planned, or you didnt react well then I could see changing them (or just wanting to experiment with something else) But if it works the first time, then I see no NEED to change them for the second run.

 

[datBtrue]

I would probably be fine shooting just 10IU slin with 10IU IGF-1, but I dont know if the pGH will add or interact to cause exaggerated hypoglycemia.

I check my blood sugar at intervals when I use slin or slin/IGF-1 and I can verify that the IGF-1 LR3 does have an effect at increasing insulin sensitivity and that when coupled with insulin it pushes blood sugar down a little more. So take that into consideration when you use the two together.

However Growth Hormone (GH) has the opposite effect. It reduces the blood sugar drop that comes with insulin use (if they are taken at the same time). In fact you'll find you need fewer carbs if GH & slin are taken together than w/ slin alone.

I don't know what pGH is...can you elaborate on it?

 

[pudzian2]

I check my blood sugar at intervals when I use slin or slin/IGF-1 and I can verify that the IGF-1 LR3 does have an effect at increasing insulin sensitivity and that when coupled with insulin it pushes blood sugar down a little more. So take that into consideration when you use the two together.

However Growth Hormone (GH) has the opposite effect. It reduces the blood sugar drop that comes with insulin use (if they are taken at the same time). In fact you'll find you need fewer carbs if GH & slin are taken together than w/ slin alone.

I don't know what pGH is...can you elaborate on it?

here is a write up on it...http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/84035-p-gh-experiences.html

how much slin/igf-1 did you use together? (w.o GH)

 

[neoborn]

does your doctor consider you an "HRT" patient for legit or 'favor' reasons if at all? (maybe dont say on the boards haha)...but anyway well when I do mine it will be like this:

test prop: 1000mg/week
Tren Ace(first 75% of cycle): 100-125mg ED (probably 100mg)
Epistane: first 75% of cycle:10mg ED, last 25% of cycle: 50-60mg ED
humalog: 10IU PWO
IGF-1: 10mcg PWO or 20mcg EOD
pGH: max dose (if multiple shots, 1 shot PWO)

this cycle may be a little dry. but if we keep a synthetic AI out, then the epi should help control estro to the point where any other hopefully will be used by joints.

I was offered TRT by my Dr. for some low test levels. I actually told him I would rather hold off for now. I am pretty sure he would be open to my request if I can discuss the methodology with him and why I want to do it a certain way. He trusts me and I trust him. We have a very good working relationship.

Of course I would talk in depth with an Endo.

Would an Endo / Dr. prescribe the shopping list you just gave?

 

[drewh10987]

Hey pudzian, have you ever used pGH before? If so, how did you like it? Is it legal? I read the thread you linked and it seems very interesting. Some of the guys said it use to be legally available through a former board sponsor, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

 

[sfearl1]

I was offered TRT by my Dr. for some low test levels. I actually told him I would rather hold off for now. I am pretty sure he would be open to my request if I can discuss the methodology with him and why I want to do it a certain way. He trusts me and I trust him. We have a very good working relationship.

Of course I would talk in depth with an Endo.

Would an Endo / Dr. prescribe the shopping list you just gave?

i seriously doubt it

 

[Kata1yst]

I was offered TRT by my Dr. for some low test levels. I actually told him I would rather hold off for now. I am pretty sure he would be open to my request if I can discuss the methodology with him and why I want to do it a certain way. He trusts me and I trust him. We have a very good working relationship.

Of course I would talk in depth with an Endo.

Would an Endo / Dr. prescribe the shopping list you just gave?

I don't think an Endo would give that stuff to you either...atleast not in the US & not legally anyways. You're best bet is to stock up if he even allows you to take the stuff home. Then again, you're endo would want to monitor your test levels after some time.

 

[datBtrue]

here is a write up on it...http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh/84035-p-gh-experiences.html

how much slin/igf-1 did you use together? (w.o GH)

Oh yeah I remember a former board sponsor carried it in a couple of forms...one was a sterile injectable. From all the feedback it sounded good especially for prolonged use and especially if you were older. In fact I remember I was going to order some and give it go for 3 or so months but then that board sponsor had his problems.

Slin/igf-1 use was 8/10.

 

[datBtrue]

...Is it legal?...Some of the guys said it use to be legally available through a former board sponsor, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

That former board sponsor had legal problems (criminal/tax) unrelated to this compound or this board.

The compound is legal. It isn't even grey area...it is straight up legal. However the method of delivery can not be advertised/sold as an injectable for humans.

So transdermal formulas are okay and sterile injectable is okay to buy for oral consumption (oral consumption is ineffective so it would be up to the user to make the decision on injecting it).

 

[neoborn]

i seriously doubt it

So then what would be a good burst cycle that they would most likely accept from me as a suggestion or something I would like to try?

 

[pudzian2]

So then what would be a good burst cycle that they would most likely accept from me as a suggestion or something I would like to try?

there is no way they would give you anything but test unless your a muscle wasting patient. Then you may get some nandrolone and HGH. BUT even if he scribes you test....it would be NO WHERE NEAR enough to take 1g+ per week. Any doc who does that is risking his job and life as a free man.

 

[ImJ2x]

What exactly is a "burst" cycle? Is it pretty much 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off?

 

[pudzian2]

What exactly is a "burst" cycle? Is it pretty much 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off?

the word "burst" is just a term to exemplify that the gear is meant to get in, make some gains, and get out. so the average cycle length would be between 3-4 weeks. At this point suppression should be minimal (if at all- depends on individual). and upon cessation of steroid use, the body will hopefully not have a hard time returning to the barely disturbed "pre cycle homeostasis"

read a few pages back it explains all the theories.

 

[datBtrue]

Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.

Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.

Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.

 

[pudzian2]

Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.

Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.

Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.

very interesting. that makes perfect sense. however NPP or tren will be much more anabolic regardless. Either way, using test the whole time would be cheaper and easier.

 

[FX01]

Just an interesting (at least to me) thought.

Patrick Arnold mentioned a method for reducing the androgenicity of testosterone for use by women. The method was simply the use of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor.

Now this would change the androgen/anabolic ratio of testosterone greatly in favor of anabolism. So if one wanted to adhere to Rea's protocol of running androgens in the first part of a short cycle and anabolics in the second part, one could just use testosterone throughout the entire cycle BUT add in a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor during the second part of the cycle to make that part more anabolic.

Interesting indeed.
What are your thoughts of running Letro throughout,
just to be on the safe side?

 

[pudzian2]

Interesting indeed.
What are your thoughts of running Letro throughout,
just to be on the safe side?

I would think letro could lead to too much estrogen reduction, whereas aromasin or arimidex would be a better choices.

 

[pudzian2]

Simple: We used an estrogen antagonist to block receptor-sites but allowed plasma estrogen levels to remain high.
Using Clomid as an example, it has been my experience that a novice anabolic steroids user required (if any) only 50 mg/d (50 mg per day). And an intermediate anabolic steroids user required 20-30 mg/d. An advanced anabolic steroids user commonly required 30-50 mg/d. A very advanced anabolic steroids user sometimes required 40-60 mg/d, and in most cases, some additional help from an aromatase inhibitor. The key was to watch for signs of gyno and female pattern fat deposits, while keeping a close eye on blood pressure. This was always of the utmost concern during the building of the perfect beast. High blood pressure can introduce a variety of long term and life threatening negative side effects.

NOTE: Nolvadex decreases GH/IGF-1 synthesis and is therefore a poor choice as an estrogen antagonist.

Things we have learned from experience...Estrogen levels were kept near normal or below before we exited the anabolic steroids protocols. So we added an estrogen aromatase inhibitor at about day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase to clear the system of excess estrogen before we exited. I have not noted many novice anabolic steroids/Max Androgen Phase users whom needed this precaution. But this was in relevance to dosages administered.

Some intermediate anabolic steroids users opted for Arimidex 0.5-1.0 mg/d, or Proviron 50- 100 mg/d. Most advanced anabolic steroids users successfully utilized Arimidex 1.0-2.0 mg/d or Aromasin 50mg/d. This was, of course, unnecessary when a Cortisol/Estrogen Suppression Phase was layered in at the half-way point or beginning day #15 of a Max Androgen Phase.

1) what would be a comparable dose of a second generation SERM like toremifene or Raloxifene compared to the 20-60mg/d Clomid suggestion by Rea.


2)I have set up the following protocol of 2 "short" cycles to be rotated between. Can anyone help suggest estrogen control protocols to layer over these two different regimes?

i was thinking something along the lines of:
-toremifene (10-20mg ED from the start of each cycle to prevent gyno)

-During the "mini cycle 1" I planned on using aromasin (or a natty AI if strong enough...suggestions?) starting week 2/3
at 12.5-25mg ED).

-I feel an AI wont be necessary during "Mini Cycle 2"

Mini Cycle 1:
• Days 1-15: 100-150mg ED Testosterone Propionate (frontload 200-250mg day 1)
• Days 15-30: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
• Days 1-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
** HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


Mini Cycle 2:
• Days 1-15: 100mg ED Trenbolone Acetate (frontload with 200mg)
• Days 1-21: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
• Days 10-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
**HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


A 4 week post cycle therapy will follow each of these cycles and include:

POST CYCLE:

SERM: to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha, Primordial Performance writes, "25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research."

( I will most likely run a daily taper of 120/120/90/90/60/60/30/ (>that would be 7 days{first week of PCT), and then back down to the lower dose of SERM to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha...)

Test BoostersAI: Sustain Alpha, (paravol/Drive OR Phyto-Testosterone)

Cortisol: Retain 2, Vit c, 3g,

 

[FX01]

i was thinking something along the lines of:[/B]
-toremifene (10-20mg ED from the start of each cycle to prevent gyno)

-During the "mini cycle 1" I planned on using aromasin (or a natty AI if strong enough...suggestions?) starting week 2/3
at 12.5-25mg ED).

-I feel an AI wont be necessary during "Mini Cycle 2"

Mini Cycle 1:
• Days 1-15: 100-150mg ED Testosterone Propionate (frontload 200-250mg day 1)
• Days 15-30: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
• Days 1-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
** HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


Mini Cycle 2:
• Days 1-15: 100mg ED Trenbolone Acetate (frontload with 200mg)
• Days 1-21: 45mg ED Testosterone Propionate
• Days 10-30: 100mg ED Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
**HCG will be on hand and used during the latter half of cycle to lessen the degree of potential suppression/shut-down.


A 4 week post cycle therapy will follow each of these cycles and include:

POST CYCLE:

SERM: to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha, Primordial Performance writes, "25mg/day clomid or 10mg/day nolva or 10mg/tormefene or 50mg/day raloxifene are the ideal doses for maximal testosterone stimulation based on my research."

( I will most likely run a daily taper of 120/120/90/90/60/60/30/ (>that would be 7 days{first week of post cycle therapy), and then back down to the lower dose of SERM to be used in conjunction with Sustain Alpha...)

Test BoostersAI: Sustain Alpha, (paravol/Drive OR Phyto-Testosterone)

Cortisol: Retain 2, Vit c, 3g,

pudz,
How about this:

Mini Cycle 1:
Frontload (The same)
Days 1-15 Prop (75 ED)
Days 15-30 (45 ED-same as you posted)
Days 1-30 NPP(again as above)
Sometimes, Test is not always the best in higher doses.

 

[pudzian2]

pudz,
How about this:

Mini Cycle 1:
Frontload (The same)
Days 1-15 Prop (75 ED)
Days 15-30 (45 ED-same as you posted)
Days 1-30 NPP(again as above)
Sometimes, Test is not always the best in higher doses.

yea...thats a possibility. However I feel that about 750mg prop would treat me well. so roughly 110mg per week. (only reason I used more was becuase propionate is roughly 79% test: ester weight. so at 150mg per day x 7 days...1050. (1050 x .79= 830mg)

I have only had experience with enanthate. and ran that up to 750mg but didn't overcompensate for ester weight.

I will probably stick between 75-100mg and on later cycles increase the dose when/if necessary.

thanks bro.

I would really like some feedback on my estro control protocols.

 

[neoborn]

Out of the tests which has the best test to ester ratio i.e. the most test per bottle / ampule?

 

[pudzian2]

Out of the tests which has the best test to ester ratio i.e. the most test per bottle / ampule?

suspension=100% test
prop=79% test

 

[sfearl1]

pudz when are you looking to run this? i might let you be the guinea pig for this and if successful i'll follow i'm looking to go on, if everything goes accordingly, right around june 1st

 

[pudzian2]

pudz when are you looking to run this? i might let you be the guinea pig for this and if successful i'll follow i'm looking to go on, if everything goes accordingly, right around june 1st

haha I am looking to go back on around may 10th. so approx 1 month ahead of you. If this works, Which Im 90% confident (on paper/theory wise) that it will....It will be the way I cycle for a while.

 

[sfearl1]

haha I am looking to go back on around may 10th. so approx 1 month ahead of you. If this works, Which Im 90% confident (on paper/theory wise) that it will....It will be the way I cycle for a while.

damn i hope this works out for you!! the only thing is, you will not have a longer cycle with the same compounds to compare and contrast it with so you will not know if it would have been more/less effective. but hell, if it works, it works. i'll once again be following your progress closely!

 

[pudzian2]

damn i hope this works out for you!! the only thing is, you will not have a longer cycle with the same compounds to compare and contrast it with so you will not know if it would have been more/less effective. but hell, if it works, it works. i'll once again be following your progress closely!

thanks man. yea I will have no point of comparison, but at the same time, if it DOESNT work for some reason, then I will be able to conclude that I need to be ON longer.....I doubt that this will be the case.

shorter cycles are common practice, safer, and more effective in the long run....(at least for some)......and I assume that at some point, depending on the individual and the amount of mass he is carrying, longer cycles/staying on may be more favorable. Im not close to that point yet, so I will stick to this method if it works. I have confidence in it.

 

[SupFatHead]

Okay I've read most of the thread and here are some comments:

1. I personally like shorter cycles (no more than 6 weeks). I hate being severely shut down.

2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.

3. Whats the purpose of the epi in your cycle pudz? I'd drop it. Its an inconsistent compound and I would stick to something more proven if using an oral at all (a bombs or d ballz).

4. Whats your prop blend look like? Assuming its the standard 100mg/ml your going to be pinning a lot to get to 1g/week.

I think thats all I got right now...

 

[SupFatHead]

Wait one more thing...been reading a lot on CKD diets. I think I like the priming idea. I've done one cycle with a cut right before it and I was pleased with the results. My last cycle I bulked like crazy right before cycle....then I was so mentally done with the bulking thing that I really gained no weight on cycle and pretty much felt ****ty with no appetite.

 

[datBtrue]

Wait one more thing...been reading a lot on CKD diets. I think I like the priming idea. I've done one cycle with a cut right before it and I was pleased with the results. My last cycle I bulked like crazy right before cycle....then I was so mentally done with the bulking thing that I really gained no weight on cycle and pretty much felt ****ty with no appetite.

You are absolutely spot on in your thinking! 6-8 weeks of a CKD is perfect before hitting a cycle.

I first stumbled on priming in a weird way. I was doing a 20 week cycle. I had great gains in the first 8 weeks so for some experiemental reason I decided (against all advice) to start a CKD cut at week 9...I lowered my test dose and used T3 and dieted down to a really low bodyfat % and then on week 14 I really went crazy w/ multi-grams of test, gym twice a day and as much as I could eat and BOOM for 4 weeks everything I ate seemed to increase muscle. I gained no bodyfat...in fact I leaned out a bit more and was more vascular...all on high test alone. Then at week 18 (after more than 4 weeks post diet "prime") I started putting on some fat & sides started up so by week 20 I was ready to come off.

I had done long cycles before (actually they were my standard way of doing them) and the only way I was ever able to continue to gain much on the back end was to change compounds/ up dosages/ be willing to accept more fat gain & put up w/ increasing sides.

So this made me look at "priming" more...although this term wasn't really in fashion at the time the concept was out there already...

 

[datBtrue]

...
2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.
....

Yes I agree. I have a different take on short-cycles which is far far from the position of most...and that is I prefer long-esters even in a short cycle.

I respond VERY well to Testosterone-cyp & perhaps even a little quicker then most...my mood gets happy w/in hours of an inject...so you can see that any little bit that makes its way to my bloodstream where it becomes active has a quick effect on me. I always front-load Test-cyp and I prefer to just let long-esters wind down in the final 2 weeks before PCT.

I would be able to gain well on a 6 weeker of just long-estered test and nothing else.

So nothing is set in stone despite what people SCREAM!!! at you.

 

[SupFatHead]

Yes I agree. I have a different take on short-cycles which is far far from the position of most...and that is I prefer long-esters even in a short cycle.

I respond VERY well to Testosterone-cyp & perhaps even a little quicker then most...my mood gets happy w/in hours of an inject...so you can see that any little bit that makes its way to my bloodstream where it becomes active has a quick effect on me. I always front-load Test-cyp and I prefer to just let long-esters wind down in the final 2 weeks before post cycle therapy.

I would be able to gain well on a 6 weeker of just long-estered test and nothing else.

So nothing is set in stone despite what people SCREAM!!! at you.

Thats interesting....is that consistent with any cyp you have used (different oils/solvents/supplier/etc)?

 

[pudzian2]

I absolutely plan on priming before my first and probably before many of these cycles so as to keep bodyfat very low and keep responding well to the gear. I will have to wait and see how bad test flu hits me. Like Dat said. Nothing is set in stone. If it is bad, I will devise another plan and incorporate longer esters.

As my current PCT comes to a close, I intend to diet down slowly to a sub 10% bodyfat. I think it is very do-able without sacrificing much LBM. I am currently 235lbs at about 14-15% bodyfat, and 5'9". that is way to high for me, but with my schedule, my diet has been inconsistent.

I do not wish to take this thread off topic so I will start another one where i brainstorm my diet. If you guys would like to help/critique It would be much appreciated. Dat, your advice would be great considering im sure you are bigger than 235lbs and you have sub 10% bf.

Ill post a link on here when I start the thread.

 

[pudzian2]

Okay I've read most of the thread and here are some comments:

1. I personally like shorter cycles (no more than 6 weeks). I hate being severely shut down.

2. Only issue I have with short cycles is your likely using short ester gear. Test flu seems more common with short ester gear. Now if you get test flu for a week or two of a 6 week cycle it really sucks. Training is less than intense and generally a miserable experience.

3. Whats the purpose of the epi in your cycle pudz? I'd drop it. Its an inconsistent compound and I would stick to something more proven if using an oral at all (a bombs or d ballz).

4. Whats your prop blend look like? Assuming its the standard 100mg/ml your going to be pinning a lot to get to 1g/week.

I think thats all I got right now...

the epi was just thrown in there for discussion sake. That is not actually a cycle I had planned on doing. BUT, if the availability of certain compounds like (NPP) isnt so good, then that cycle would be an alternative. However, I agree with you in that its best to steer clear of ph's like that.

 

[sfearl1]

pudz i need to talk about a slow cut myself. link me up