http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/86358-pudz-requesting-diet.html#post1211386
Here I go guys: thread started.
any help would be greatly appreciated
Here I go guys: thread started.
any help would be greatly appreciated
what do you guys think about this approach. i am staying on 250mgs of test e, 700mgs of primo e, and equipoise @ 300mgs from now till september. and every 4 weeks will be doing a blitz with fina @ 75 eod, test prop @ 100 ed and winny injectable @ 50 ed. maybe throw in an oral like var or superdrol. how should i workout and eat on the cruise weeks. should i follow the ckd diet then blast carbs with my prop and fina or just eat and lift like bulk the whole way thru. what are your thoughts?
This is a horrible approach. This thread is about maxamizing gains in the least amount of time.what do you guys think about this approach. i am staying on 250mgs of test e, 700mgs of primo e, and equipoise @ 300mgs from now till september. and every 4 weeks will be doing a blitz with fina @ 75 eod, test prop @ 100 ed and winny injectable @ 50 ed. maybe throw in an oral like var or superdrol. how should i workout and eat on the cruise weeks. should i follow the ckd diet then blast carbs with my prop and fina or just eat and lift like bulk the whole way thru. what are your thoughts?
this is a VERY interesting approach. However due to the relatively slow (although consistent) transitions and half-lives of the compounds...we see that the cycle is about 8+weeks in length. This isnt too long a period by any means, especially considering that the compounds are not hitting hard and dropping hard, and no anti -e's are needed....but as far as HPTA recovery, it is taking a different angles then the formerly proposed 3-4 week cycles where HPTA interruptions are minimal if even present.Here is an interesting cycle that pulses an androgen with an anabolic so that steroidal blood levels remain fairly constant but androgens peak every 8 days and anabolics peak every 8 days in an alternating rhythm. Its called a TIDE CYCLE and is described as:
A "TIDE CYCLE" is made up of transitional periods where (high androgens) and (low-moderate androgens) benefit one another as they release into the blood stream at different periods. This produces a tide like effect allowing muscle building-Estrogenic Activity to occur without any over accumulation. Testosterone Cypionate and Deca have an active life of 16 days and a half life/peaking life of 8 days making them a great pair for such a regimine. No anti-estrogens are to be used during a "TIDE CYCLE" - IRON MAN
SAMPLE TIDE CYCLE
Testosterone Cypionate 400 mgs/daily: Day#1, 8, 15, 22, 29, 36, 43, 50, 57, 64
Deca Durabolin 300 mgs/daily: Day#4, 5, 11, 12, 18, 19, 25, 26, 32, 33, 39, 40, 46, 47, 53, 54, 60, 61, 67, 68
If you graphed it out it would looked like this:
Oh yeah...this was Ironmans's example and he choose those compounds just to demonstrate & make the math easier.this is a VERY interesting approach. However due to the relatively slow (although consistent) transitions and half-lives of the compounds...we see that the cycle is about 8+weeks in length. This isnt too long a period by any means, especially considering that the compounds are not hitting hard and dropping hard, and no anti -e's are needed....but as far as HPTA recovery, it is taking a different angles then the formerly proposed 3-4 week cycles where HPTA interruptions are minimal if even present.
Actually a good general rule is to look at a long period of time...say one year...and see if you have been ON steroids for more days than you were OFF. If you were ON more than six months out of the year then that is abuse.I know that it is common to stay off for the amount of time ON+amount of time used for post cycle therapy+minimum of one week, BUT according to the routine I posted earlier (my 2 example cycles) and according to Rea's theories etc, the body shouldnt need more than 3-4 weeks MAX of recovery time after a 28 day or so cycle. If planned well, shutdown shouldnt be an issue, and if we are in fact suppressed/shut down after these few short weeks, the rebound could probably take place ON ITS own upon ester clearance. Combine that with a powerful HPTA stim (SERM) like toremifene and other healthy PCT ingredients and recovery shouldn't be an issue at all (hopefully within days). That is why I have a 4weeks on+4weeks OFF type of idea. For now, that is what I have planned, however if after one of the cyles, if the system isnt back to normal then obviously more time off is needed and the cycle done maybe needs to be altered.
HCG doesnt stop shut down. It replaces LH. this does mean that FSH is supressed though. the LH will prevent testicular atrophy, but to what degree it keeps the testes producing testosterone is unknown to me...Is the only way to stop shutdown on cycle to use HCG?
Oh yeah...this was Ironmans's example and he choose those compounds just to demonstrate & make the math easier.
By-the-way Deca is a great compound BUT it interferes with recovery of HPTA for a longer period of time then a lot of other compounds...so even in an 8 week cycle w/ Deca we have screwed up and made our recovery too long.
I just liked the idea of the TIDE CYCLE & the alternating pulsating androgen to anabolic profile. There is no reason short-esters couldn't be used to create a short cycle.
For that matter if one could make an accurate calculation...just testosterone could be used and a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor pulsed to create fluctuating androgen/anabolic periods of time.
I'm not proposing that anyone use this type of cycle...just thought it was "old school" w/ a lot of relevancy to one of the things we have been talking about...i.e. maxamizing gains
Actually a good general rule is to look at a long period of time...say one year...and see if you have been ON steroids for more days than you were OFF. If you were ON more than six months out of the year then that is abuse.
The amount of time needed to recover is a lot less for short cycles than for long cycles. The one time I did a 2 week cycle I felt recovered w/in 1 week and blood work a month later showed no negative changes in both lipids & hormone panel.
When I did 20 week cycles (way too long in hindsight) I needed to nurse & coax my HPTA back...and so 7 weeks of post cycle therapy was needed and then I stayed off and lifted natural for at least 30 weeks and blood work taken at that point always looked good.
SO Pudz your PCT & off time is fine for such short cycles. You have a well thought out plan which includes an approach to PCT that works for you...you are planning many months in advance...you are focusing on training aspects & diet...your approach should serve as a good example to guys on how to approach taking steroids.
Now the Fool who is already ON and plans to go for 7 months is shutting down his HPTA for such a long time...he may not ever fully recover from that long a shutdown...he is also in his late 30's so his HPTA (by nature) is already in noticable decline...enough said about it!
Early on I wanted to see where my body was BEFORE a cycle and then post-PCT...I did this when I used different compounds...thats how I know that Deca, Tren and Anadrol were harsher on my hormone profile then Testosterone, EQ, DBol, Var and Turinabol.Any suggestions as to when blood work should be done? It would get rather pricey ...
What do you guys think?
I am interested in using a long estered-test and front-loading it (which means I will began to receive an anabolic effect w/in 1 week...I KNOW this to be true for me). I am also interested in letting the blood levels taper on there own between last shot & PCT and of using an AI during this 16 day transition time period.Are you interested in applying these theories to your own AAS usage?
your kind words are sincerely appreciated.Can I just say that is has got to be one of the best threads ever.
The amount of information, research/thoughts and experience contained in a few short pages is staggering.
Thanks pudz for always starting interesting threads with what you have been thinking about and datBtru for enlightening and easily understood posts.
:thumbsup::box::clap2:
so your intention isnt necessarily to try to avoid HPTA suppression but keep it so that you are only suppressed for a shorter time and therefore can bounce back much easier correct? Obviously your choice of a long estered testosterone is one of the reasons for this cycle length.Early on I wanted to see where my body was BEFORE a cycle and then post-post cycle therapy...I did this when I used different compounds...thats how I know that Deca, Tren and Anadrol were harsher on my hormone profile then Testosterone, EQ, DBol, Var and Turinabol.
But eventually I settled into a once a year complete bloodwork...like I said I took 30 weeks off after the end of a 20 week cycle. It was at the end of my time off that I had a complete physical exam and blood analysis.
If something was off (and thankfully it never was) I would have taken steps to bring that back in line before cycling again or I just would stop the further use of anabolic steroids. So I started a cycle with peace of mind.
Now there is bloodwork I do ALL the time on my own and that is measuring my blood sugar w/ a glucometer. I'm not diabetic but I like to see what blood sugar effect my diet, timing, Insulin & IGF-1, fiber w/ carbs, fat w/ a meal, etc.. has as well as figuring out ways to keep insulin below the threshold that spills carbs over into fatty tissue.
I am interested in using a long estered-test and front-loading it (which means I will began to receive an anabolic effect w/in 1 week...I KNOW this to be true for me). I am also interested in letting the blood levels taper on there own between last shot & PCT and of using an AI during this 16 day transition time period.
I am interested in having a quicker PCT & recovery w/ the possibility of running a follow on cycle.
I am interested in cutting as a prime before the first cycle.
This all leads me to duration...I am leaning toward a medium length cycle of 7-8 weeks (not counting the 1st week of blood level build up & counting only one of the weeks between last shot and the start of PCT.
My goals are different then most. I've been big & ripped before. I chose to drop 40+ pounds of muscle to address sleep apnea problems I had and shrink my neck size down to "normal" while trying to retain size where I wanted it. So this cycle would just be to bring up a few areas and enjoy 8 weeks of a test "high".
Yes. i did Test EQ long esters for my first. Its a good and safer way to start.What kind of dosages would you front load for your eight weeker?
Do you think the Test / EQ would be a good first cycle combination?
yea some discourage deca for a first cycle. I would opt for test + EQ. I will attest to it since it worked well for me. Just don't get your hopes TOO high. Although I gained some weight, alot was water and some was fat. Now that I am cutting a bit, I see that I only gained about 10-15 actual pounds of LBM which is great for a first cycle. But eh...I found alot of good information on www.hormone-expert.com
I read about the pro's n cons of a lot of the steroids. My friend has a Deca / EQ combo but from what I read Deca isn't really a good choice for me it would be Test E most likely and something.
oh yea forgot to address that issue. EQ didnt start working in me UNTIL 7-8 weeks. so incorporating it into an 8 weeker without some serious front loading would be useless IMO. BUT if you were to front load and let the blood levels taper on their own like DAT was referring to then it could be done, BUT this would take longer than 8 weeks probably (the ester clearance)Also, 8 weeks is probably a little short for EQ.
great stuff man. I think this article was posted by Size. Dat referred me to this article before. there are some issues with the ideas in there, but the overall premise is right onContinued:
The end game:
One other matter, which few consider. Everyone has a genetically pre-programmed maximum of lbm, which their body will suppport, regardless of whether you reach it, via anabolic steroids. The faster you approach it, the sooner your gains will decline, no matter how much juice you cycle, and how often you cycle it. You will end up spending money, juicing larger quantities of gear, and stressing your body, for diminishing returns. Finally, you are tapped out. All the slin, growth hormone, IGF-1, and whatever else you toss at it, will never get you past that limit. In a minority of individuals, they will attain immense lbm gains, over time. The rest of us, face the remainder of our BBing careers, re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All we accomplish is staying right where we are, until we leave the sport in frustration.
BBing is a sport for life. Why exhaust yourself and your body, in a hurry to arrive at the end of the journey, earlier than you need to? I'm 48 years old, and I look forward to growing and growing, for as long as I remain in the sport. We have a 65 year old client, who last competed 11 years ago. We did a few short cycles with him, dieted and prepped him, and he walked away with a second prize trophy, healthy and happy. Have any of you ever considered that you might still be able to lift and compete at that age? You better forget it, if all you can think of is slamming on endless pounds, today and tomorrow. Your time in BBing will either end in poor health, or the frustration of having reached your limit, and going no further.
Summary:
I have presented, above, only the most basic introduction to my philosophy and approach to short cycling, and offered only a simple example out of a program which I spent years developing. I have devised an entire series of special-purpose cycles, each of which embody most, if not all of the above principles.
The purpose of the short cycle is to employ moderate dosages of short halflife ester and esterless injectable and oral AAS, combined with moderate and healthy diet, to promote moderate stress anabolic growth, over time. This same process results in very high quality muscle production, which only increases with each cycle, and minimal health impact. It assumes a long term outlook. It is intended for the mature and rational BBer, who expects to remain in the sport for the rest of his life. If you truly love BBing, you never want to leave, and you want to keep your interest and grow, then consider how the short cycle might be what you need for your future in our beloved sport.
Yes indeed.great stuff man. I think this article was posted by Size. Dat referred me to this article before. there are some issues with the ideas in there, but the overall premise is right on
pec and calf implants.... hahahYes indeed.
Now build me a 4 day cycle to be big and ripped.
Your a bastard.I will look into the calf implants,mypec and calf implants.... hahah
haha i was totally kidding. I didnt mean to insult you physique at all. In fact i have no clue what you look like. My calves arent that great either man.... welcome to the clubYour a bastard.I will look into the calf implants,my
calves really suck.:rant:
Puds,thanks.haha i was totally kidding. I didnt mean to insult you physique at all. In fact i have no clue what you look like. My calves arent that great either man.... welcome to the club
Sure. Keep in mind that EQ is pretty mild...about half the strength of Test. Also the heavy ester means that for every 100mg of EQ you only get 60mg of hormone. In general to get much out of EQ you should run it for at least 12 weeks...it takes a while to kick in.What kind of dosages would you front load for your eight weeker?
Do you think the Test / EQ would be a good first cycle combination?
yea.. I disagree with some things said in that article. I think their primary reason for NOT using testosterone is that compared to tren and nandrolone it doesnt have as good a profile (estro, DHT conversions etc). and the A:A ratio of tren and nand and what else was there ...winny? seem to be higher than test. Also...they really really HATE estrogen in that article. I dont know about that. I think that running tren and nand and maybe winny solo is just not going to "Feel" that great for some.as far as the article goes, do you guys agree/disagree with the author's view on testosterone's place (or lack there of) in a short cycle and why? what would the doses of the cycle they have outlined consist of? i'm a sucker for well written material and that definitely sounded like it holds merit. i might be willing to run their outlined cycle this summer, perhaps a few times, if time/bloodwork permits.
This is exactly why I posted this article.yea.. I disagree with some things said in that article. I think their primary reason for NOT using testosterone is that compared to tren and nandrolone it doesnt have as good a profile (estro, DHT conversions etc). and the A:A ratio of tren and nand and what else was there ...winny? seem to be higher than test. Also...they really really HATE estrogen in that article. I dont know about that. I think that running tren and nand and maybe winny solo is just not going to "Feel" that great for some.
the body is very familiar with testosterone. and for most..it makes them feel good. If you look back at the two small cycles I have outlined there is always at least a replacement dose of testosterone in there. MY OPINION is that since the cycle is not intended to last more than 21-28 days so as to avoid the anabolic steroids replacing natural homeostatic mechanisms but rather to SUPPLEMENT natural hormones. Obviously some may get suppressed to a certain degree but hopefully that only comes between week 3 and 4 and upon cessation wtih a powerful HPTA stim like torem for a week or 2. the body should bounce right back. (probably even without a SERM).
so really I feel that using enough testosterone to mimick the bodies production of it could smooth out the cycle ALOT and not confuse the body when only synthetic derivatives like nand and tren are floating around. (by confuse i mean things like emotional sides etc...).
there is something to consider.. EVEN WITHIN the 21-28 day time frame is the onset of suppression sped up by using testosterone? I was under the impression that no matter what the compound it is too soon for the body to recognize and react. Hence the reason for the length of the cycle...but I wonder if even adding a replacement dose of TEST would increase the speed at which the body recognizes and reacts to exogenous hormones simply becuase it is so framiliar with testosterone>
I think that issue was overlooked. Anyway I'd be interested to hear what Dat and others have to say about it.
yea that was my idea. You can see how I incorporated all of these theories into those two cycles A, B that I designed for myself to run. However....I may end up just running it B, B. we will see. I have to decide If I wanna bother running THAT much test.This is exactly why I posted this article.
This brings to light how we all react differently,and how we may be able to utilize these theories to furthur advance.The incorporation of Test,either in high or low doses,is an excellent point.It gives a solid basic foundation to the shorter cycle,and if using Prop,I see no reason to believe there would be any suppressional issues at all.
I really think that lowering that test dosage would work great for you.Test for me at high doses gave me lots of water retention,high BP,and I felt like a walking heart attack victim.yea that was my idea. You can see how I incorporated all of these theories into those two cycles A, B that I designed for myself to run. However....I may end up just running it B, B. we will see. I have to decide If I wanna bother running THAT much test.
im thinking 2 consecutive cycles MORE along the lines of B, except the second B will be use a little less tren and more NPP than the first B. Also, I may keep the test up a little bit over replacement doses....and that should work great. no sense starting out with high doses anyway. I agree that PCT will only need to be about 2 weeks with a SERM some AI maybe and cort control. then the next two weeks rest and detox then back on IF ready. I figure the first time through like I mentioned earlier I will test between cycles to see how recovery and lipids etc are doing and then probably only run blood every 4 cycles if it checks out. Like you said. Itll take a bit of tuning. Id say after every 2 consecutive cycles depending on how I feel I could take 4-6 weeks off (plus the 2 weeks PCT after the last cycle) and then refresh and prime again.I really think that lowering that test dosage would work great for you.Test for me at high doses gave me lots of water retention,high BP,and I felt like a walking heart attack victim.
Tren however, made me feel great.It's all about fine tuning
each and every cycle to fit our needs, and the reduction of post cycle therapy length that Dat posted earlier.
I didn't realize when I previously read this which was posted by Size that the author MuscleTrainee is someone I know. He is a very very good trainer and someone I respect. He is a good guy all around.Dat,
Thanks for bringing up the Tide cycling approach.I think it holds true merrit to the maximation of gains.
Pudz,
Here is a great article I found from way back in 2002
"Inital thoughts on short cycling".
I have heard of Borreson and those HIGH HIGH dose experiments. I dont think I would ever subject myself to that type of doseI didn't realize when I previously read this which was posted by Size that the author MuscleTrainee is someone I know. He is a very very good trainer and someone I respect. He is a good guy all around.
Never-the-less I don't see his "initial thoughts" written 6 years ago as being the definitive guide on choosing compounds. I'm sure some of his views have evolved...he is very open-minded and loves to learn. Anyway I know that he feels estered test is fine for an 8 week cycle.
I disagree w/ his position of not using testosterone as he laid it out in that article.
I disagree with his belief that esterless steroids induce localized injection site growth. He makes no mention of it but test base suspended in water does not produce localized results. However there is evidence that test base in oil might to a small degree.
I see that he mentions Paul Borreson's body of work as something that led to his own thoughts in this area (i.e. compound choice & localized growth). I find this a bit strange because MuscleTrainee doesn't believe in massive doses of anything...just steady gains, easy recovery, safe & sane.
Paul Borreson can be said to be the original author of the "blast" cycle. In fact he even experimented with 10 grams of steroids per week! Paul Borreson is a controversial figure...there is value in talking to people who knew him...especially in his earlier years. But some of Paul Borreson's ideas were far from safe & sane. RIP Paul.
Yes,MT is a great guy.His knowledge and theories actually carry over many other things besides AAS,including horticulture,design,ect.Altough the article is dated,I still wanted to incorporate it into this thread for different points of view,as you stated.Also,I'm very much in agreement with you on the usage of test.I didn't realize when I previously read this which was posted by Size that the author MuscleTrainee is someone I know. He is a very very good trainer and someone I respect. He is a good guy all around.
Never-the-less I don't see his "initial thoughts" written 6 years ago as being the definitive guide on choosing compounds. I'm sure some of his views have evolved...he is very open-minded and loves to learn. Anyway I know that he feels estered test is fine for an 8 week cycle.
I disagree w/ his position of not using testosterone as he laid it out in that article.
I disagree with his belief that esterless steroids induce localized injection site growth. He makes no mention of it but test base suspended in water does not produce localized results. However there is evidence that test base in oil might to a small degree.
I see that he mentions Paul Borreson's body of work as something that led to his own thoughts in this area (i.e. compound choice & localized growth). I find this a bit strange because MuscleTrainee doesn't believe in massive doses of anything...just steady gains, easy recovery, safe & sane.
Paul Borreson can be said to be the original author of the "blast" cycle. In fact he even experimented with 10 grams of steroids per week! Paul Borreson is a controversial figure...there is value in talking to people who knew him...especially in his earlier years. But some of Paul Borreson's ideas were far from safe & sane. RIP Paul.
Sure you can use it in your second cycle BUT I think you definitely need to use it at the front end of the first cycle comig off a prime so as to get glycogen supercompensation to take place very quickly. See my answer to the following question.dat as far as your disagreement of NOT using test. Do you agree with how I incorporate it? at possibly slightly higher than replacement doses WHEN tren and NPP are the main compounds being used?
Toxo you really need to diet w/ low carbs to put your body in a state where it is ready to soak up carbs & nutrients. Warrior is a master at priming and he can convey this information better than I. Here is what he wrote:hallo guys, interesting thread, i will be starting a prime and then a burst cycle in a couple of weeks.
what do you guys think about using cardio to put you in a calorie deficit? rather then cutting calories, i think this aproach would have its advantages as it would maintain your bodys ability to proccess large amounts of food.
also what is your feelings on running peptites through out post cycle therapy time off?
do you continue the ckd through the entirety of the cycle?Sure you can use it in your second cycle BUT I think you definitely need to use it at the front end of the first cycle comig off a prime so as to get glycogen supercompensation to take place very quickly. See my answer to the following question.
Toxo you really need to diet w/ low carbs to put your body in a state where it is ready to soak up carbs & nutrients. Warrior is a master at priming and he can convey this information better than I. Here is what he wrote:
Priming involves the correct dietary and training techniques that get you to drop fat but no muscle. Basically, you diet down slow enough to simply lose some fat - no muscle should be lost. The training should not be so intense that you risk overtraining; in fact, a general maintenance routine would be best in most cases. The diet should allow your body to become sensitive to carbohydrates and other macronutrients. Generally, a cyclic ketogenic diet (CKD) works wonders - staying low carb for 3-4 days maximum, then carbing up. Again, the goal is to lean up but preserve current LBM.
Here is an example split that I have used for successful priming:
Day 1: Moderate Carb/Cardio
Day 2: Low Carb/Upperbody Supersets
Day 3: Low Carb/Lowerbody Supersets
Day 4: Low Carb/Cardio
Day 5: Low Carb/Full Body Workout (begin carb load after evening training)
Day 6: Carb Load/No training
Day 7: Moderate Carb/Power Training (Squat/Deads/Bench)
Repeat
How much cardio you do and how low you take your calories, is determined by your LBM and what you have learned about your metabolism and personal limitations.
Pudz this applies to your ? ->The last 4-5 days before the cycle starts should be low carb. On the day you carb up - you should begin the cycle. Testosterone and most of it's popular deriatives will make this carb load very effective - and glycogen supercompensation should occur very quickly... especially if you use short esters or frontload longer esters - to get blood levels up quickly. After this point your body will remain very responsive to the cycle and you should begin training hard - drop sets, rest-pause... go intense! You should feel ready for it. As always - keep a training log to maximize the growth window.
So my answer is "what Warrior said".
No no no! The CKD & depletion routine are part of the priming process (it isn't set in stone...it just gives you an idea about what priming is meant to achieve). As you approach your MASS building cycle (which may include steroids...who are we fooling...it WILL include steroids) you time it so you are low carb for 4 or 5 day and then on the day your cycle starts up you carb the f@ck up.do you continue the ckd through the entirety of the cycle?
No no no! The CKD & depletion routine are part of the priming process (it isn't set in stone...it just gives you an idea about what priming is meant to achieve). As you approach your MASS building cycle (which may include steroids...who are we fooling...it WILL include steroids) you time it so you are low carb for 4 or 5 day and then on the day your cycle starts up you carb the f@ck up.
BUT you want the steroid to be ACTIVE at that point so you either use a short ester and start it a couple of days earlier or you frontload a long-ester and start that inject process maybe six days earlier...so on day 1 of your MASS building short cycle all of the anabolic factors (steroids, glycogen supercompensation, nutrient sensitivity, pent up ready to go lifting intensity, etc.) will be kicking.
It looks good to me.what do you think about my last post ?
that is a good idea..... then from there would you suggest going back to the protocol I outlined above?It looks good to me.
You might want to consider running Test Prop & Tren for the entire 1st cycle.
Then run the Test Prop & NPP for the entire 2nd cycle.
Gyno...well proper precautions are chosen from knowing your body. For instance w/ myself if I chose to run 3 grams of test-cyp (hypotheticaly of course) w/o any AI I would very quickly develop large lumps behind by nipples...if at that point I were to only try to contain it w/ some Nolva and continued on for 6 more weeks...I KNOW that my PCT will eliminate those lumps completely w/ no specific anti-gyno strategy.that is a good idea..... then from there would you suggest going back to the protocol I outlined above?
IF/when i were to run the cycle outlined above, do you think there is a good risk for gyno? if so and other than the preventative measures I addressed, do you think anything else would be beneficial.?