Burst cycliing

[neoborn]

So for beginner cycle suggested dosage of Test E/Cyp would be how much? How do you decide what is a good starting dosage? How much test would someone in the upper range be creating naturally a week in a mg basis?

Do you say well your body creates 200mg(I have no idea) of test naturally a week so for a good cycle just double your natural amount produced, so 400mg test a week?

How do you frontload Test E / Cyp? Large doses for two weeks before the start of your cycle? Do you think it's better to take say a 400mg dose and inject it twice a week for better blood stabilisation?

Thanks for the answers guys.

 

[datBtrue]

How do you frontload Test E / Cyp? Large doses for two weeks before the start of your cycle?

Frontloading is not for beginners. This and "how to" were addressed I believe one page back.

Do you think it's better to take say a 400mg dose and inject it twice a week for better blood stabilisation?

Twice a week injections for Testosterone-Enanthate or Testosterone-Cypionate will keep blood levels fairly steady & is generally recommended.

So for beginner cycle suggested dosage of Test E/Cyp would be how much?

The Effect of Short-Term Use of Testosterone Enanthate on Muscular Strength and Power in Healthy Young Men

Shane Rogerson, Robert P. Weatherby, Glen B. Deakin

Journal of strength and conditioning research: the research journal of the NSCA, ISSN 1064-8011, Vol. 21, Nº. 2, 2007 , pags. 354-361

Abstract​

Use of testosterone enanthate has been shown to significantly increase strength within 6-12 weeks of administration (2, 9), however, it is unclear if the ergogenic benefits are evident in less than 6 weeks. Testosterone enanthate is classified as a prohibited substance by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and its use may be detected by way of the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio (16). The two objectives of this study were to establish (a) if injection of 3.5 mg/kg testosterone enanthate once per week could increase muscular strength and cycle sprint performance in 3-6 weeks; and (b) if the WADA-imposed urinary T/E ratio of 4:1 could identify all subjects being administered 3.5 mg/kg testosterone enanthate.

Sixteen healthy young men were match-paired and were assigned randomly in a double-blind manner to either a testosterone enanthate or a placebo group. All subjects performed a structured heavy resistance training program while receiving either testosterone enanthate (3.5 mg/kg) or saline injections once weekly for 6 weeks. One repetition maximum (1RM) strength measures and 10-second cycle sprint performance were monitored at the pre (week 0), mid (week 3), and post (week 6) time points. Body mass and the urinary T/E ratio were measured at the pre (week 0) and post (week 6) time points.

When compared with baseline (pre), 1RM bench press strength and total work during the cycle sprint increased significantly at week 3 (p < 0.01) and week 6 (p < 0.01) in the testosterone enanthate group, but not in the placebo group. Body mass at week 6 was significantly greater than at baseline in the testosterone enanthate group (p < 0.01), but not in the placebo group. Despite the clear ergogenic effects of testosterone enanthate in as little as 3 weeks, 4 of the 9 subjects in the testosterone enanthate group ( 44%) did not test positive to testosterone under current WADA urinary T/E ratio criteria.​

The amount used, 3.5mg/kg equates to 318mg per week for a 200lb individual. That is not a huge dose...rather low actually and yet that was a sufficient dosage to illicit an anabolic effect (and for some still not test positive for doping )

So I suggest that the amount used in the study serve as your minimum contemplated dose.

For solid information on the safety & effect of larger doses you may want to review The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men published in THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE available in full at: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

In that study they used 600 mg of testosterone enanthate per week for 10 weeks w/ positive anabolic effects, no significant side-effects and full recovery.

So I suggest that the amount used in this study serve as your maximum contemplated weekly dosage.

 

[pudzian2]

Gyno...well proper precautions are chosen from knowing your body. For instance w/ myself if I chose to run 3 grams of test-cyp (hypotheticaly of course) w/o any AI I would very quickly develop large lumps behind by nipples...if at that point I were to only try to contain it w/ some Nolva and continued on for 6 more weeks...I KNOW that my post cycle therapy will eliminate those lumps completely w/ no specific anti-gyno strategy.

How many guys can say that about their bodies? So the point is you need to know your body.

Now if you ran the testosterone for 30 days I'd use an AI from day 16-30.

If you ran testosterone & followed in the same 30 day cycle w/ tren I'd run an AI at least for the 1 week prior to starting tren.

If you run a cycle with no aromatizing compound then the focus becomes containing prolactin. Your B6 strategy seems like it will be sufficient. (I'd use it all the way through a 30 day cycle of progesteronic hormones & during that portion of a cycle where a progesteronic hormone is used...w/ 1 caveat...I wouldn't use B6 at too high a dose and I wouldn't exceed 30 days with it without a break).

I don't think you will need dostinex or bromocriptine for these types of cycles...but everybody is different...know your body.

The one thing you do not want is to have an elevated amount of estrogen at the same time you are using a progesteronic hormone...

great advice.

I use p-5-p which is ~~b6 so why do you recommend NOT using it for more than 30 days straight? did your comment just apply to the b6? or would it also apply to the p-5-p. (I am pretty sure p-5-p is what B6 is converted to in the liver)

 

[datBtrue]

great advice.

I use p-5-p which is ~~b6 so why do you recommend NOT using it for more than 30 days straight? did your comment just apply to the b6? or would it also apply to the p-5-p. (I am pretty sure p-5-p is what B6 is converted to in the liver)

Too high a dose of vitamin B6 for too long can cause reversible nerve damage to the arms and legs.

 

[pudzian2]

Too high a dose of vitamin B6 for too long can cause reversible nerve damage to the arms and legs.

ohh, I though that was due to SUPER high doses of B6....anyway...what is a good protocol that should be safe considering the cycle outline I have and how there are intentions to continually use progestin compounds.

 

[drewh10987]

I thought the reason for using p-5-p instead of B6, other than increased bio-availability, was that there wasn't a risk of nerve damage even at higher doses. I could be wrong, but I thought this was one of the arguements for p-5-p.

 

[datBtrue]

ohh, I though that was due to SUPER high doses of B6....anyway...what is a good protocol that should be safe considering the cycle outline I have and how there are intentions to continually use progestin compounds.

Studies indicate damage can occur w/ vit. B6 doses of 500mg. But drewh brings up a good point about p-5-p being safer.

I must defer to others on this because I'm not very familiar w/ p-5-p.

 

[Xodus]

Studies indicate damage can occur w/ vit. B6 doses of 500mg. But drewh brings up a good point about p-5-p being safer.

I must defer to others on this because I'm not very familiar w/ p-5-p.

I was pretty sure it wasn't 'irreversible'. Extended use at high doses may take up to six months for neuropathy to subside, but I don't think I've seen a study that shows it hasn't subsided when you stop supplementation.

200mg is a lot, but I would go up to 600mg/day if I started leaking to get it to stop, to hell with tingly fingers when you are lactating.

I would agree that P-5-P is a safer alternative though.

 

[datBtrue]

I was pretty sure it wasn't 'irreversible'.

Yep...thats why in the post I made prior to the one you quote I said the following:

Too high a dose of vitamin B6 for too long can cause reversible nerve damage to the arms and legs.

 

[Xodus]

Yep...thats why in the post I made prior to the one you quote I said the following:

Sorry, it was late and I was exhausted when I read that as 'irreversible'. Usually my reading comprehension is better..

:run:

 

[datBtrue]

Sorry, it was late and I was exhausted when I read that as 'irreversible'. Usually my reading comprehension is better..

:run:

Its not you bro...its me...remember I'm a d1ck.

 

[Xodus]

Its not you bro...its me...remember I'm a d1ck.

Aren't we all. And stupid, unread ones at that.

 

[pudzian2]

I was actually considering running NPP for cycle 1 and then tren. I have nagging injuries that EQ really helped, but then I lifted too heavy and strained my pec tendon again. So...I figure NPP will give me some mass, and some collagen synthesis and lots of nice synovial fluid uptake, and then run tren to harden up and utilize that strength.

then I will do the Tren/NPP/Test cycles outlined in the last page or so.

feeling each compound out individually would probably be the best place to start

 

[pudzian2]

based on accurate half life info when would it be best to start front loading each of the compounds; NPP, Test Prop, Tren Ace so that blood levels are stable and high by day 1(or 0 if you consider it that) of the cycle?

 

[neoborn]

What is NPP :ntome:?

 

[pudzian2]

What is NPP :ntome:?

nandrolone phenylpropionate

 

[pudzian2]

days 1-20: 50-75mg ED Test prop (with a frontload)
days 1-15: 75-100mg Tren Ace ED (with a frontload)
days 15-30:100mg NPP ED
days 20-30: 25mg Test prop ED.


Anyone like math? I am trying to figure out the appropriate frontload procedures to accumulate the desired hormone plasma levels on the desired days. so on day 1 (first day of cycle) I want either 75mg or 100mg plasma level of tren acetate and 50 or 75mg testosterone propionate. I am NOT calculating these dosages based on ester WEIGHT. rather on half lives / active lives.

Also, I would need to figure out the day and method of front loading the NPP before while the tren ace is clearing so that day 15 NPP is at optimal plasma levels. Reps to anyone who helps me with this process.

additionally, I need to figure out when to stop the NPP and Test prop respectively so that on day 31, plasma levels are as close to 0 (or the optimal level to now start HPTA regeneration from any possible supression)

 

[king1033]

subbed

 

[sfearl1]

pudz i don't see where you have test enanthate fitting into your planning at the top of the post. is that what your frontloading?

 

[pudzian2]

noooo im using short esters. Since they are NOT basis, they still need some frontloading to get plasma levels in optimal ranges at day 0 (day 1 really).

test prop not enth

 

[sfearl1]

noooo im using short esters. Since they are NOT basis, they still need some frontloading to get plasma levels in optimal ranges at day 0 (day 1 really).

test prop not enth

yeah thats what i thought you meant. i think you made a typo in your third sentence of that post up there when you mention enanthate.

 

[pudzian2]

yeah thats what i thought you meant. i think you made a typo in your third sentence of that post up there when you mention enanthate.

ahh good call. FIxed!

 

[datBtrue]

days 1-20: 50-75mg ED Test prop (with a frontload)
days 1-15: 75-100mg Tren Ace ED (with a frontload)
days 15-30:100mg NPP ED
days 20-30: 25mg Test prop ED.


Anyone like math? I am trying to figure out the appropriate frontload procedures to accumulate the desired hormone plasma levels on the desired days. so on day 1 (first day of cycle) I want either 75mg or 100mg plasma level of tren acetate and 50 or 75mg testosterone propionate. I am NOT calculating these dosages based on ester WEIGHT. rather on half lives / active lives.

Also, I would need to figure out the day and method of front loading the NPP before while the tren ace is clearing so that day 15 NPP is at optimal plasma levels. Reps to anyone who helps me with this process.

additionally, I need to figure out when to stop the NPP and Test prop respectively so that on day 31, plasma levels are as close to 0 (or the optimal level to now start HPTA regeneration from any possible supression)

http://www.roidcalc.com/

 

[pudzian2]

http://www.roidcalc.com/

how does one change the compounds at the top? seems like a limited tool if one can only plug in values for a select number of compounds..
thanks for the link dat

 

[pudzian2]

okay. Check it out if your interested. I basically planned 1 'short' cycle and 1 post cycle therapy+OFF period with all the compounds (minus gen health supps etc which are taken year round for the most part).

I did NOT really include the Front loading details in this chart.

should give a good overall view of the plan and idea here

 

[king1033]

test prop 100mg ed 2-6
d-bol 50 mg ed 1-2 (to jump start the cycle til prop and h-drol kick in,or i might just scratch d-bol and run prop 2 weeks longer)
h-drol 100mg ED 1-6 (kicks in, in the third week and has a low andrigenic rating if im not mistaken)

adex as needed to cut water
6oxo 600mgED 4-6 to block estrogen
lean extreme cortisol control if im not mistaken 6-10
torem 6-10


another question i had is does torem completely replace clomid and nolva??

 

[pudzian2]

test prop 100mg ed 2-6
d-bol 50 mg ed 1-2 (to jump start the cycle til prop and h-drol kick in,or i might just scratch d-bol and run prop 2 weeks longer)
h-drol 100mg ED 1-6 (kicks in, in the third week and has a low andrigenic rating if im not mistaken)

adex as needed to cut water
6oxo 600mgED 4-6 to block estrogen
lean extreme cortisol control if im not mistaken 6-10
torem 6-10


another question i had is does torem completely replace clomid and nolva??

is this a cycle you are planning for yourself?

 

[datBtrue]

How much test would someone in the upper range be creating naturally a week in a mg basis?

Here you go neoborn.

From NUTRITION and the STRENGTH ATHLETE, by Catherine G. R. Jackson (Editor), 2000

Under control of luteinizing hormone (LH), testosterone is secreted at the rate of ~4 to 9 mg/day (13.9 to 31.2 nmol/day) in normal adult men. The testosterone produced by the testes and the adrenal cortex act to control blood concentrations (free plus bound: male ~525 ng/ml [~20 nmol/L], female ~30 ng/ml: [~1.0 nmol/L]) by feedback inhibition of both LH and GnRH. After secretion by the testes, 97 to 99% of testosterone circulates in blood bound to two proteins, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), for which it has a high affinity, and albumin, for which it has a weaker affinity. Only a small fraction (1 to 2%) is in the free or biologically active form. The testosterone/SHBG ratio is often used as an index of bioavailable testosterone. - p. 136​

 

[pudzian2]

can anyone confirm that my attachment in one of my above posts works? also...if it does any comments/suggestions?

 

[neoborn]

I can download and save it to my desktop but I cannot run it. What is it MS works? I would make it a xls most people have Excel.

 

[MovinWeight]

Do you have windows vista or simply the newest version of excel? I think the .xlsx files only associate with the new excel. Try saving it as just an .xls file.

 

[pudzian2]

Do you have windows vista or simply the newest version of excel? I think the .xlsx files only associate with the new excel. Try saving it as just an .xls file.

good call. I have the new version of excel. I fixed it.

 

[sfearl1]

are you going to run this, take a short post cycle then run it again?

 

[pudzian2]

are you going to run this, take a short post cycle then run it again?

well the cycle outlined in the excel document IS the cycle and the Post cycle HPTA regeneration period + rest. This is tentative. My first few runs will use bloodwork to determine if 3 or 4 weeks ON is optimal for my body.

anyway. after day 60, the Frontloading begins and then on day 62 or so the whole thing starts over. My plan is, after two consecutive ON/OFF runs, I will continue the OFF time after the last cycle for an additional 2-4 weeks for detox, rest, or for whatever other reason.

for the most part, I intend to run this type of cycle indefinitely. It favors OFF time > ON time per year but the use itself is more efficient, more planned, organized, and makes more scientific sense to me. Oh yea....its MUCH healthier than putting the body through 4-6months of nonstop wasteful steroid use and then resting the equivalent amount of time and loosing everything.

the thoeries are best explained earlier in the thread...

 

[sfearl1]

well the cycle outlined in the excel document IS the cycle and the Post cycle HPTA regeneration period + rest. This is tentative. My first few runs will use bloodwork to determine if 3 or 4 weeks ON is optimal for my body.

anyway. after day 60, the Frontloading begins and then on day 62 or so the whole thing starts over. My plan is, after two consecutive ON/OFF runs, I will continue the OFF time after the last cycle for an additional 2-4 weeks for detox, rest, or for whatever other reason.

for the most part, I intend to run this type of cycle indefinitely. It favors OFF time > ON time per year but the use itself is more efficient, more planned, organized, and makes more scientific sense to me. Oh yea....its MUCH healthier than putting the body through 4-6months of nonstop wasteful steroid use and then resting the equivalent amount of time and loosing everything.

the thoeries are best explained earlier in the thread...

sweet, i just didn't know if you intended on still doing the on/off/on/longer off/repeat cycle layout. looks solid though. i'll be following your first cycle like i said earlier in the thread because i'm thinking of using a similar approach to cycling this summer.

 

[king1033]

test prop 100mg ed 2-6
d-bol 50 mg ed 1-2 (to jump start the cycle til prop and h-drol kick in,or i might just scratch d-bol and run prop 2 weeks longer)
h-drol 100mg ED 1-6 (kicks in, in the third week and has a low andrigenic rating if im not mistaken)

adex as needed to cut water
6oxo 600mgED 4-6 to block estrogen
lean extreme cortisol control if im not mistaken 6-10
torem 6-10


another question i had is does torem completely replace clomid and nolva??


is this a cycle you are planning for yourself?

yes im just trying to fine tune it

 

[pudzian2]

sweet, i just didn't know if you intended on still doing the on/off/on/longer off/repeat cycle layout. looks solid though. i'll be following your first cycle like i said earlier in the thread because i'm thinking of using a similar approach to cycling this summer.

yea the on/off/on/longer off/ repeat is the jist of it. of course we will take it all day by day and change things if/as need be. will keep ya updated.

 

[hman85]

King i have never personally used prop yet but if this is your first cycle i am pretty sure you can use less than that. Anyone else have ideas about this?

 

[SupFatHead]

King i have never personally used prop yet but if this is your first cycle i am pretty sure you can use less than that. Anyone else have ideas about this?

Yes he could get away with 100mg's EOD.

I like this type of cycle: on/short off/on/short off....repeat.

 

[pudzian2]

Yes he could get away with 100mg's EOD.

I like this type of cycle: on/short off/on/short off....repeat.

yea definitely 50mg ED or 100mg EOD.

anyway. I will see. I mean if the 4 weeks on checks out to be optimal (vs. 3 weeks on) then maybe only 3 weeks off is necessary, and if 3 weeks on is optimal instead, then maybe only 2-3 weeks off is necessary. however, I think the schedule listed above will treat me well as a place to start and tune

 

[Xodus]

I like this type of cycle: on/short off/on/short off....repeat.

I'm really warming up to this idea...

 

[hman85]

I like it so far it just sounds good in theorie, but we need some guinea pigs to test it out lol

 

[sfearl1]

alright alright i'll do it... pudz, this better be worth it! lmao

 

[hman85]

sfear how did your pct go?

 

[sfearl1]

sfear how did your post cycle therapy go?

good i'll update my log in a few so i dont clutter up this thread

 

[pudzian2]

I like it so far it just sounds good in theorie, but we need some guinea pigs to test it out lol

oh its been tested out. THis is COMMON practice in Europe and amongst very educated advanced bodybuilders. Read Author L. Rea's "building the perfect Beast" these techniques, IF applied PROPERLY do work and have proven so. It all really comes down to fine tuning for each individual and their differences.

 

[pudzian2]

alright alright i'll do it... pudz, this better be worth it! lmao

haha you and me sfearl. Whens your estimated start time.

 

[king1033]

well im thinking instead of pinning ED couldnt i just use a transdermal test?? to keep things simple and probably just pin some igf-1lr3??

 

[pudzian2]

well im thinking instead of pinning ED couldnt i just use a transdermal test?? to keep things simple and probably just pin some igf-1lr3??

personally, I find transdermal application to be guesswork. If you wanna know exactly how much test is being administered and have a better Idea of H/L's etc then just pin. otherwise your levels MAY be less consistent or predictable

 

[sfearl1]

haha you and me sfearl. Whens your estimated start time.

i've got bloodwork and a full physical scheduled for april. i was originally planning to start june 1st, but if i have a clean bill of health i could be bumping it up to may 1st i'm not sure i can wait another whole month lol. and if this proves to be successful, i'll be able to run this through the summer, without wasting gear, as opposed to doing a 12-16 week cycle straight through the summer.

so far i'm definitely using prop, tren ace, and maybe an oral like anavar or winstrol. i'm debating whether or not i'm going to include npp in this. i still consider myself somewhat of a beginner to all of this and don't want to get too complicated this early in my 'bodybuilding career.' but, if i run something similar to your setup, i'll be able to distinguish the results from each compound so thats definitely a plus. we'll see, i've still got some time.