Tbol Vs Ostarine

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  1. Tbol Vs Ostarine


    Just wondering if anybody has done both here? The more I'm easing into AAS, the more I realize that untested compounds long term like LGD and Ostarine are dangerous. But a TBOL and Ostarine cycle of 6 weeks has peaked my interest coming up in winter. Has anybody done this combo?

    How harsh is TBOL on the HPTA?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    Just wondering if anybody has done both here? The more I'm easing into AAS, the more I realize that untested compounds long term like LGD and Ostarine are dangerous. But a TBOL and Ostarine cycle of 6 weeks has peaked my interest coming up in winter. Has anybody done this combo?

    How harsh is TBOL on the HPTA?
    I wouldn't stack them, since neither one can aromatize. without that, you'll run into some low E2 issues on cycle...
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  3. I don’t see a point in using Ostarine on Tbol. Save the money and get a test base.

  4. Test and tbol was my first cycle. No regrets and the gains were awesome.
    Black Lion Research Representative

  5. Ostarine is pretty much useless unless you're looking to preserve muscle in a caloric deficit. A 5mg dose would be enough to accomplish this.

    12 weeks of test E with a 6 week Tbol kicker. That's what you want, whether you realize it or not.
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  6. Test and tbol is deffo the way to go man I had a great cycle on that and was vascular as a mother ****er

  7. Quote Originally Posted by mike33511 View Post
    Ostarine is pretty much useless unless you're looking to preserve muscle in a caloric deficit. A 5mg dose would be enough to accomplish this.

    12 weeks of test E with a 6 week Tbol kicker. That's what you want, whether you realize it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by jgntyce View Post
    Test and tbol was my first cycle. No regrets and the gains were awesome.
    That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

    Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

    Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.
    Before buying Tbol, get a sample from your source and buy a Turinabol "roid test" on amazon for about $25.- , like I did:

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    Tbol is my favorite oral, very few sides -if any, justifying the only moderate size -and strength gains.
    Life is fair it's your expectations that aren't.

  9. iv'e read that T-BOL can wreck your HPTA, but iv'e also read SARMS can do that too and my libido and HPTA is fine after 25mg ED of ostarine, two cycles, 6&8 weeks.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    That was the impression I got from the cycle. I liked the strength gains but would have appreciated some more size, and maybe a little bit more strength. But further reinforcing it, you guys sold me on it. I think 250 Test C with Tbol kicker? 12 week. This seems like what I'm looking for.

    Suppression on Ostarine hits about week 5, noticeably. So, I don't think I'm really considering LGD at all. I'd probably throw mk-677 into the mix.
    500.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mike33511 View Post
    500.
    Seems to be the consensus, I don't think ill fight you on this either, I want the gains, I don't want to waste my own time lol.

  12. So contrary to doing each compound individually , Test and Tbol can be run simultaneously for a first time gear run?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    So contrary to doing each compound individually , Test and Tbol can be run simultaneously for a first time gear run?
    Anything can be run for a first time run, but jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim is often a lot less enjoyable than learning where your feet can touch the bottom.

    Ideally if you truly want to know what each compound does for you then 500mg of Test E or C a week for 12 weeks will be a nice first run. TBol is very user friendly in my opinion, it has a good bit of bang for the buck when it comes to milder orals. So it is a pretty safe first oral. Nothing wrong with running it with your first cycle and the results will be great. Just make sure you are taking enough TUDCA and NAC, plus keep an eye on blood pressure and you will be good to go!!!!

    I agree with everyone here, 12 weeks test e or c @ 500mg, 6 weeks of TBol 50-80mg a day = a damn nice cycle!!!!!!!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  14. You might end up with low estrogen issues. I can see Turinabol overshadowing ostarine. Turinabol adds strength and not a lot of mass. The beter way to use Ostarine is probably as a base of a SARM stack maybe using it with Ligandrol or one of the others. It seems that people respond to the different SARMs a little differently. Turinabol is a different anamal all together. It's like a turbo booster on a TRT protocol. On it's own you might have low E issues by the end of a cycle with it. Once you start playing around with these things the steroid homeostasis is going to be out of whack. Keeping a little estrogen but not to much around is a key in this. These guy that do 500 mg of test and add in other stuff are probably in a shambles as far as estrogen/androgen/anabolic ratios.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Anything can be run for a first time run, but jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim is often a lot less enjoyable than learning where your feet can touch the bottom.

    Ideally if you truly want to know what each compound does for you then 500mg of Test E or C a week for 12 weeks will be a nice first run. TBol is very user friendly in my opinion, it has a good bit of bang for the buck when it comes to milder orals. So it is a pretty safe first oral. Nothing wrong with running it with your first cycle and the results will be great. Just make sure you are taking enough TUDCA and NAC, plus keep an eye on blood pressure and you will be good to go!!!!

    I agree with everyone here, 12 weeks test e or c @ 500mg, 6 weeks of TBol 50-80mg a day = a damn nice cycle!!!!!!!
    I appreciate the input brother. I think this sounds like the right type of cake. I read the German testing on tbol went up to 35mg with no adverse effects noticed. 50mg for 6 weeks though is the real deal? Was considering maybe only a 4 week run.

    I think it's about that time. I think SARMS are great for newcomers to see what a PED is capable of. As far as TUDCA goes, what is the recommended dose? I was going to run K1ngs Guard by OL.

    Do I need to taper up with the Test C? Stuff with me tends to hit hard. My first dose of ostarine at 25mg knocked me down good...took me a day to recover. I found tapering up from 5mg doing a +5mg a day rectified this until I hit my 25mg mark. I think it would be rather crazy for 500mg to hit me at once haha. If somebody could explain briefly how the test ester releases/activates in the stream, I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys!

    EDIT: Also, use of AI exemestane while 'on' over arimidex? Friendlier on hairline or doesn't matter? I pretty much know what to expect with 500mg Test C though.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    I appreciate the input brother. I think this sounds like the right type of cake. I read the German testing on tbol went up to 35mg with no adverse effects noticed. 50mg for 6 weeks though is the real deal? Was considering maybe only a 4 week run.

    I think it's about that time. I think SARMS are great for newcomers to see what a PED is capable of. As far as TUDCA goes, what is the recommended dose? I was going to run K1ngs Guard by OL.

    Do I need to taper up with the Test C? Stuff with me tends to hit hard. My first dose of ostarine at 25mg knocked me down good...took me a day to recover. I found tapering up from 5mg doing a +5mg a day rectified this until I hit my 25mg mark. I think it would be rather crazy for 500mg to hit me at once haha. If somebody could explain briefly how the test ester releases/activates in the stream, I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys!

    EDIT: Also, use of AI exemestane while 'on' over arimidex? Friendlier on hairline or doesn't matter? I pretty much know what to expect with 500mg Test C though.
    Yeah you can tun the TBol for 4 weeks. If so I would run it higher though. I was going 6 at 50mg to keep everything mild but effective for your first run. Maybe 85-80 if four weeks and really wanting to see a kick. As far as the Test shoot twice a week 250, and 250 every 3.5 days. I have just always done them on Tuesday evening, and Saturday mornings just to have them spread apart. Test E and C have 5-6 day half life depending on the reference source you look at. Which is why 2 doses a week are ideal to keep levels more stable rather than dipping up and down by half with only one shot a week.

    Hair loss you might want to grab monoxodyl if you feel you are prone to hair loss and trying to retain it. I would not use an AI to limit aromatization to avoid DHT... You want estrogen in your system or you won't make as many gains and your system won't run right. Energy and even erection issues can be a result of to low estrogen levels.

    Either of the options you mentioned are suitable for 500mg IF AND ONLY IF you start experiencing high estrogen sides. Do not start your cycle off using an AI... Especially on 500mg you may not need it at all.

    TUDCA get in no less than 500mg a day while running the oral, if you go over 50mg to do the 4 weeks then 750-1000mg. Then you can do 250-500 the rest of the cycle when only injection based gear is being used. I don't know the exact profile of that product so I can't recommend how many servings that would be out of it or if it even has TUDCA in it. For liver specifically I am using Gun Show Supplements Clear, it has 250mg TUDCA & 250mg NAC per cap, same price as most companies TUDCA alone. They even sell TUDCA in a bulk powder.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  17. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Yeah you can tun the TBol for 4 weeks. If so I would run it higher though. I was going 6 at 50mg to keep everything mild but effective for your first run. Maybe 85-80 if four weeks and really wanting to see a kick. As far as the Test shoot twice a week 250, and 250 every 3.5 days. I have just always done them on Tuesday evening, and Saturday mornings just to have them spread apart. Test E and C have 5-6 day half life depending on the reference source you look at. Which is why 2 doses a week are ideal to keep levels more stable rather than dipping up and down by half with only one shot a week.

    Hair loss you might want to grab monoxodyl if you feel you are prone to hair loss and trying to retain it. I would not use an AI to limit aromatization to avoid DHT... You want estrogen in your system or you won't make as many gains and your system won't run right. Energy and even erection issues can be a result of to low estrogen levels.

    Either of the options you mentioned are suitable for 500mg IF AND ONLY IF you start experiencing high estrogen sides. Do not start your cycle off using an AI... Especially on 500mg you may not need it at all.

    TUDCA get in no less than 500mg a day while running the oral, if you go over 50mg to do the 4 weeks then 750-1000mg. Then you can do 250-500 the rest of the cycle when only injection based gear is being used. I don't know the exact profile of that product so I can't recommend how many servings that would be out of it or if it even has TUDCA in it. For liver specifically I am using Gun Show Supplements Clear, it has 250mg TUDCA & 250mg NAC per cap, same price as most companies TUDCA alone. They even sell TUDCA in a bulk powder.
    You guys have been a huge help, I am actually really looking forward to this now. As far as the hair loss is concerned, does monoxodiyl block DHT at the scalp? I use it currently, and I can say it does help. I'm just trying to gauge if the hair loss talk is overplayed/overhyped, which tends to happen with lots of "reading" but not a lot of "doing". And you can never say for sure anyway until you start.

    Ill be supplementing with TUDCA for safety then, I can easily get this stuff for cheap.

    Now this is where I wanted to put out there something people don't do. I actually am friends with a few users out by me. He recommended to me to taper off the test for about 4-6 weeks slowly like a 250/100/100/75/50/25, then start on a SERM. He told me this helped keep the gains on the cycle as opposed to stopping cold turkey and using a SERM. So, just curious if anybody has done this, or anything close to this taper? I know ill lose some gains inevitably, but I'm talking more about keepable muscle really.

    Of course, this puts the cycle at closer to 5 months than a 3 month thing, not sure how rough this would be on me @25 as a first time gear run. I also plan to keep running mk677 with all this, and maybe HGH frag as well.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by YamahaC76 View Post
    You guys have been a huge help, I am actually really looking forward to this now. As far as the hair loss is concerned, does monoxodiyl block DHT at the scalp? I use it currently, and I can say it does help. I'm just trying to gauge if the hair loss talk is overplayed/overhyped, which tends to happen with lots of "reading" but not a lot of "doing". And you can never say for sure anyway until you start.

    Ill be supplementing with TUDCA for safety then, I can easily get this stuff for cheap.

    Now this is where I wanted to put out there something people don't do. I actually am friends with a few users out by me. He recommended to me to taper off the test for about 4-6 weeks slowly like a 250/100/100/75/50/25, then start on a SERM. He told me this helped keep the gains on the cycle as opposed to stopping cold turkey and using a SERM. So, just curious if anybody has done this, or anything close to this taper? I know ill lose some gains inevitably, but I'm talking more about keepable muscle really.

    Of course, this puts the cycle at closer to 5 months than a 3 month thing, not sure how rough this would be on me @25 as a first time gear run. I also plan to keep running mk677 with all this, and maybe HGH frag as well.
    that taper is a silly idea....

    tapering like that doesn't help your body, since the only way you'll recover is by being off. (IMO, there are a couple situations to use a taper, but they're rather specific and kinda rare).

    anyway, ask your buddy why he would ever shoot 25 mg of test... seriously, ask him the reason.

    ^FWIW, any amount of an outside androgen is going to cause an equal amount of suppression. so taking even a small amount simply suppresses you a small amount with no net gain.

    EDIT: to be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but get annoyed when people give bad advice like your buddy gave you...

  19. Quote Originally Posted by CatSnake View Post
    that taper is a silly idea....

    tapering like that doesn't help your body, since the only way you'll recover is by being off. (IMO, there are a couple situations to use a taper, but they're rather specific and kinda rare).

    anyway, ask your buddy why he would ever shoot 25 mg of test... seriously, ask him the reason.

    ^FWIW, any amount of an outside androgen is going to cause an equal amount of suppression. so taking even a small amount simply suppresses you a small amount with no net gain.

    EDIT: to be clear, I'm not trying to be a jerk to you, but get annoyed when people give bad advice like your buddy gave you...
    No doubt.

    OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

    Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  20. Any water weight or Lethargy from TBOL?
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    No doubt.

    OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

    Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....
    I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    No doubt.

    OP tellyour buddy that he really needs to read up on how the HTPA system works because what he said and did was wrong and I can promise you he did not keep any extra mass out of it. Just someone who misunderstood something they saw somewhere, or heard it from a friend and took it to be true.

    Glad you brought that up here because that is bro science at its worst right there....
    I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Glycomann View Post
    I think you ar leaving out a few things for thought here. Coming off AAS is not only a concern for HPTA. These things are metabolized in the body and those processes get activated and upregulated. The compounds, for instance, are glucunaosylatd, hydroxylated, otherwise conjugated and so on. The convert to beta 3 hydroxylated forms, DHT derivatives, setrogenic derivatives and many others such as those that are neauroactive. Tapering will allow those processed to tamp down over weeks before allowing them to leave the system through the intrinsic properties of their ester timeing release. There are also areas of cross talk from interconversion of these compounds that impacts other steroid pathway signaling such as mineralocorticoids, estrogen signaling, progesterin signaling. There is a lot going on and these things were not really designe to be ramped up into the ranges that most use for BBing purposes. For instance, coming down from 100 mg decedurabolin injected onceevery 17 days for 6 weeks is a lot different from coming down from 500 test E and 400 Deca durabolin inj weekly. You can PubMed and poke around in the abstracts for a couple hours looking into some of the key concepts here in and pronbably get a better drift of what I am describing here. Viewed through this mroe inclusive lense it is not so foolish to taper down from a BBing cycle before the next step.
    So are you saying a longer down time for HPTA, having less androgens and not starting a PCT for quite a while is going to help someone maintain more mass than getting off the gear doing a proper pct and getting their levels back up as quickly as possible? I mean we aren't talking about health benefits here but how to keep the most mass from the cycle.

    To me that sounds more like health benefits of tapering down and not muscle mass retention benefits. I am not saying better health is not a good thing but that isn't what the guy told him it did. He told him it would help him keep more mass from the cycle.

    Can you recommend one of the studies you have read that actually play into the idea that a long taper like that actually allows more muscle to be maintained. Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but typically the body goes into a bit of a shock during PCT which is probably what you are referring to with all of the metabolites you mentioned. This typically causes a massive spike in Cortisol which makes people catabolic, and they often lose muscle mass then. If that is the idea then okay, I see that but there is already an answer to that issue out there that is much easier than that taper. Add in a cortisol management supp... works like a charm!
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  24. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    So are you saying a longer down time for HPTA, having less androgens and not starting a PCT for quite a while is going to help someone maintain more mass than getting off the gear doing a proper pct and getting their levels back up as quickly as possible? I mean we aren't talking about health benefits here but how to keep the most mass from the cycle.

    To me that sounds more like health benefits of tapering down and not muscle mass retention benefits. I am not saying better health is not a good thing but that isn't what the guy told him it did. He told him it would help him keep more mass from the cycle.

    Can you recommend one of the studies you have read that actually play into the idea that a long taper like that actually allows more muscle to be maintained. Maybe I am oversimplifying it, but typically the body goes into a bit of a shock during PCT which is probably what you are referring to with all of the metabolites you mentioned. This typically causes a massive spike in Cortisol which makes people catabolic, and they often lose muscle mass then. If that is the idea then okay, I see that but there is already an answer to that issue out there that is much easier than that taper. Add in a cortisol management supp... works like a charm!
    I really haven't seen you post publications that support the notion that tapering does not aid in recovery. I can probably post a number of publications that refer to steroid metabolism. There is an entire AAS drug detection industry built around many of these metabolites. AS you read through the literature over time you will find the diversity of steroid metabolites some groups that are active in signaling and others that are targeted for degradation. All I can tell you is try the taper. You might be surprised how little, if any, true mass you lose during the taper. You may enter into your post cycle therapy in better condition to respond since the system will have moved closer to a more normal state. You can build a taper into a cycle. The Classic era BBers didn't even have PCT. Taper was their PCT. They understood that the crash could be lessened if a taper was used. Referring to cortisol spike, it isn't truly a cortisol spike after cycle. It is a relief of cortisol signaling repression. For instance you can find articles specific to GR suppression from oxandrolone. Once the anabolic steroid is removed the ssytem is set to hyper-signal signal from the glucocorticoid receptor. Again, a taper from a high dose status to a lower one will allow the system to modulate to a lower response status rather than "crash" as the drug is more rapidly removed.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Glycomann View Post
    I really haven't seen you post publications that support the notion that tapering does not aid in recovery. I can probably post a number of publications that refer to steroid metabolism. There is an entire AAS drug detection industry built around many of these metabolites. AS you read through the literature over time you will find the diversity of steroid metabolites some groups that are active in signaling and others that are targeted for degradation. All I can tell you is try the taper. You might be surprised how little, if any, true mass you lose during the taper. You may enter into your post cycle therapy in better condition to respond since the system will have moved closer to a more normal state. You can build a taper into a cycle. The Classic era BBers didn't even have PCT. Taper was their PCT. They understood that the crash could be lessened if a taper was used. Referring to cortisol spike, it isn't truly a cortisol spike after cycle. It is a relief of cortisol signaling repression. For instance you can find articles specific to GR suppression from oxandrolone. Once the anabolic steroid is removed the ssytem is set to hyper-signal signal from the glucocorticoid receptor. Again, a taper from a high dose status to a lower one will allow the system to modulate to a lower response status rather than "crash" as the drug is more rapidly removed.
    Okay, that makes sense and again I never once said tapering does not aid in recovery. I actually kind of seconded that opinion when I said it would be a healthier option for sure. I was basically saying I don't see any way that it could help maintain more mass from a cycle than going directly into a PCT and recovering your HPTA faster, those are not the same things.

    Admittedly, I am also thinking from the standpoint of a bodybuilder or someone who is really bulking and running multiple cycles in a year, not your average recreational user only trying to do one cycle a year. SHortening the time between effective cycle time is going to net more gains over the year. Obviously not the same thing but that piece is forward in my mind due to me planning to run 2 cycles this year to get ready for a show. Just kind of wedged itself into my mentality while discussing this.

    Something else to consider also, Classic era bodybuilders did use nolvadex to control gyno in and after cycles. Nolvadex is also a SERM and could have also aided in a lot of that recovery even though it was not considered a PCT.

    By the way I was genuinely asking for you to recommend some specific studies, so I could read them. I wasn't trying to call you out. It sounds like that was your impression from the first sentence in your response.

    I imagine neither of us have studies to validate this claim on either side though. I can't imagine there has ever been a study to see what the best way to come off of a high dosed androgen cycle is in order to maintain the most muscle mass. We can theorize and extrapolate from other studies not specifically designed to test this theory and make references as to why we think the theory may hold water but that is probably about it unless you know of an actual study for this specific issue.

    I will say that I retract my statement that his buddy is an idiot and say that there may be merit to that statement. I definitely think that the taper would offer a healthier option to coming off of a cycle. That said, I personally still feel it is unlikely you will retain more mass in the end once PCT is completely over. I could be wrong... probably a 6 in one hand and half dozen in the other type of scenario where the benefits and weaknesses kind of cancel each other out.

    Again, if you have a study or two that you felt really spoke to why you feel this way I would love to get a chance to read them. I am not interested enough to filter through hundreds of studies trying to find a few that may be useful in figuring some of this out. However would definitely go read a few if you could refer any of them to me. Obviously if you have to go look them back up yourself then it probably isn't worth the bother. Hell even some good search options that might bring up studies that validate some of this.

    By the way what is your education? YOu sound pretty damn knowledgeable. Are you getting a formal education in this area or just someone who loves to peruse research on their own?
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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